(Topic ID: 362021)

Eight Ball Deluxe LE stuck switches 25 & 39.

By Sea_Wolf

62 days ago


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    There are 116 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 62 days ago

    SS noob here looking for some direction. Bought an EBD a couple of weeks ago knowing it had the issues with the “D” Target switch #25 and the right pop bumper switch #39 and I decided to splurge on new Alltek MPU, Solenoid driver and Lamp driver boards because of other issues. Contacted Dave from Alltek and talked to him on the phone today because of wonky behavior in the game. Suspected something might not be right with the new MPU but when swapped into my Mata Hari, it worked perfectly.

    He had me cut out the capacitor on the d target switch but it made no difference. DaMoib had me unsolder one wire from the d target switch and it then showed “39” in the switch test and not the “25” switch. I then did the same to the right pop bumper switch and it then shows 0 like it should on the self test. The switches are definitely both open and I can’t spot anything visually that could be shorting them.

    Any advice on where to check next would be greatly appreciated.
    Danny

    #2 61 days ago

    Post clear pictures of how the two switches were wired.

    #3 61 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Post clear pictures of how the two switches were wired.

    Thanks for the quick response @quench. Will do tomorrow.

    #4 61 days ago

    Quench here are some pictures of both problem switches, d target and right pop bumper. Hope they are clear enough and what you need. Thanks for your help.

    I did resolder the wires that I disconnected to test yesterday, so this is how it was wired.

    IMG_4448 (resized).jpegIMG_4448 (resized).jpegIMG_4443 (resized).jpegIMG_4443 (resized).jpegIMG_4444 (resized).jpegIMG_4444 (resized).jpegIMG_4446 (resized).jpegIMG_4446 (resized).jpegIMG_4461 (resized).jpegIMG_4461 (resized).jpegIMG_4447 (resized).jpegIMG_4447 (resized).jpegIMG_4454 (resized).jpegIMG_4454 (resized).jpegIMG_4462 (resized).jpegIMG_4462 (resized).jpegIMG_4463 (resized).jpegIMG_4463 (resized).jpegIMG_4464 (resized).jpegIMG_4464 (resized).jpeg
    #5 61 days ago

    Also, it’s not visible in the pictures I took of the d target switch but the diode is intact and soldered on both ends.

    #6 61 days ago

    It looks to me like the D target switch has been pulled apart and restacked. It makes me suspicious that it's been done improperly and connections in the stack are shorted. Can you take a side on photo of that switch pointed at the side lugs as best you can?

    Did you try cutting one of the capacitor legs on the pop-bumper switch?

    #7 61 days ago

    Ok thanks, I’ll post the pics you requested now and no I did not do anything to the capacitor on the pop bumper switches. I can snip off one end now if you want.

    #8 61 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    I can snip off one end now if you want.

    Yes please give it a try, those capacitors are a common failure point for shorting.

    #9 61 days ago

    Will do now. Here’s a few pics from different angles of the problem d target switch. Let me know if you need more or from a different angle. Thanks.

    IMG_4467 (resized).jpegIMG_4467 (resized).jpegIMG_4468 (resized).jpegIMG_4468 (resized).jpegIMG_4469 (resized).jpegIMG_4469 (resized).jpegIMG_4470 (resized).jpegIMG_4470 (resized).jpegIMG_4471 (resized).jpegIMG_4471 (resized).jpegIMG_4472 (resized).jpegIMG_4472 (resized).jpeg
    #10 61 days ago

    Snipped one end of the capacitor on the pop bumper so it’s disconnected but the switch still doesn’t fire the bumper in a game started.

    #11 61 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    Snipped one end of the capacitor on the pop bumper so it’s disconnected but the switch still doesn’t fire the bumper in a game started.

    Is it still reporting switch 39 as closed in switch test mode?

    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    Here’s a few pics from different angles of the problem d target switch.

    I can't quite tell from the picture angles. Anyway grab your multi-meter.
    With the machine OFF:
    Set your multi-meter to resistance mode, if it's not an auto-ranging meter put it on the 200 ohms scale.
    Measure the resistance across the little orange diode (either meter probe on one diode switch lug, the other meter probe on the other diode switch lug).
    Next, measure the resistance across the two side lugs.
    Report both resistance readings.

    #12 61 days ago

    Ok here’s what I got. After snipping capacitor on pop bumper switch it does NOT now show #39 closed on the switch test.

    Measuring resistance across the 2 ends of the diode on the d target switch I get no reading. When measuring resistance across the 2 side lugs I get between 3.8 and 4.0 ohms.

    #13 61 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    After snipping capacitor on pop bumper switch it does NOT now show #39 closed on the switch test.

    Did you resolder the wire on the pop-bumper switch that you previously disconnected?

    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    When measuring resistance across the 2 side lugs I get between 3.8 and 4.0 ohms.

    So you have a short on the switch. Look down from the top of the playfield side to see how the blades/contacts might be touching. Remove the playfield plastic above the standup switches if it's in the way.

    #14 61 days ago

    Yes I did resolder the wire on the pop bumper switch that I disconnected before testing today.

    I will look again from the top down on the d target switch. I put a light on it last night and couldn’t see anything touching that was not supposed to be but I’ll examine more closely now. Do you think it would be worth pulling that switch stack out and checking it if I don’t see anything from the top?

    #15 61 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    Yes I did resolder the wire on the pop bumper switch that I disconnected before testing today.

    Disconnecting the disc capacitor from the pop-bumper switch will not stop the pop bumper from activating. Check when pressing the pop-bumper skirt that the switch is closing - clean the switch contacts if needed. These are gold plated switch contacts, do not use anything abrasive to clean them.

    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    Do you think it would be worth pulling that switch stack out and checking it if I don’t see anything from the top?

    Well I can see someone has fiddled with that switch stack. Pulling the switch off/apart and re-stacking it (correctly straightening any poorly bent leafs) will probably fix it. None of the lugs should be physically touching another.

    #16 61 days ago

    I’ll clean the pop bumper switch and that makes sense. When manually pressing the skirt down I can see the switch close and move. When I close it from underneath the playfield with a plastic tool it will fire intermittently but not often.

    I let you know soon about the switch stack and what I find. Thanks a bunch for all the help.

    #17 61 days ago

    Quench I cleaned the pop bumper switch with alcohol and a q-tip and it’s a little better but still not firing when pressing down the skirt. If I manually push the contacts closed from underneath with the plastic tool it rarely fires but if I push high and from the side on the back blade above the contacts it fires every time. Wondering if I need to realign that switch stack as well.

    Getting ready to pull the switch stack on the d target now.

    #18 61 days ago

    Ok I must have screwed up the resistance reading. I decided to retake the measurement and this time across the side lugs in the d target switch it reads 0.6 ohms and not 3.8. I had the playfield up and must not have realized the game was on.

    Also, I pulled that switch stack out and apart an noticed nothing that could be causing a short. Just the switch itself pulled apart still registers a #25 closed switch on the test.

    Sorry about the false reading.

    #19 61 days ago

    Good news on the pop bumper switch. After clipping one end of the capacitor and cleaning the contacts as you suggested along with realignment of the switch stack it now fires from all angles of the skirt pushing down. Thanks Quench .

    Again it looked like it had been messed with but all good now. Just #25 now.

    #20 61 days ago

    Still haven’t found anything that could be shorting the #25 d target switch. Any other suggestions on this?

    #21 61 days ago

    I would take switch #25 off and inspect. It should have a plastic tube insulating the metal from the screw. If you're missing that the switch will short out to the housing.

    #22 61 days ago
    Quoted from pindel:

    I would take switch #25 off and inspect. It should have a plastic tube insulating the metal from the screw. If you're missing that the switch will short out to the housing.

    Edited this:
    Thanks for weighing in pindel . I just did what you suggested and the tubing is there but definitely a little frayed. One thing that happened was that I separated the actual switch from the Bakelite and metal tab so that it was dangling away from everything else and it still showed a closed 25 switch on the test, even with the switch pulled wide apart.

    #23 61 days ago

    if i read correctly, you removed both capacitors from the pop bumper and the bump switch and the problems went away in switch test?

    the switch test showed '0' in the ball in play/credit display?

    this points to shorted capacitors.

    IMG_3488 (resized).JPGIMG_3488 (resized).JPG

    i could be wrong, but in the pics the switch mounting screws look like they could all be tightened.

    if the suspect switch was pulled apart and still showed in switch test that leans towards a shorted diode.

    #24 61 days ago
    Quoted from Rikoshay:

    if i read correctly, you removed both capacitors from the pop bumper and the bump switch and the problems went away in switch test?
    the switch test showed '0' in the ball in play/credit display?
    this points to shorted capacitors.
    [quoted image]
    i could be wrong, but in the pics the switch mounting screws look like they could all be tightened.
    if the suspect switch was pulled apart and still showed in switch test that leans towards a shorted diode.

    Thanks Rikoshay . Yes on the #39 pop bumper switch I disabled the capacitor and it then read 0 on the switch test and after some cleaning and adjusting the switch stack the pop bumper is working 100%.

    Still have the problem with the #25 “d” Target switch. It tests that it’s closed and as I stated above I pulled the switch stack out and separated the switch itself and it’s still testing closed.

    #25 61 days ago
    Quoted from Rikoshay:

    if i read correctly, you removed both capacitors from the pop bumper and the bump switch and the problems went away in switch test?
    the switch test showed '0' in the ball in play/credit display?
    this points to shorted capacitors.
    [quoted image]

    if the suspect switch was pulled apart and still showed in switch test that leans towards a shorted diode.

    I have diodes if you think replacing would possibly help.

    #26 61 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    the d target switch it reads 0.6 ohms and not 3.8.
    Sorry about the false reading.

    This reading is more indicative of a dead short.

    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    I have diodes if you think replacing would possibly help.

    No. A shorted diode will cause problems elsewhere with ghosted switches when the 'D target switch is closed. It's not a bad diode.

    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    One thing that happened was that I separated the actual switch from the Bakelite and metal tab so that it was dangling away from everything else and it still showed a closed 25 switch on the test, even with the switch pulled wide apart.

    You mentioned earlier that disconnecting a wire from the 'D' target resulted in it no longer showing switch 25 as closed in switch test which signifies the problem is local to the switch. Exactly which wire did you disconnect? If you've got the switch dangling in pieces and not touching it should be pretty much the same as being disconnected.

    #27 60 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    This reading is more indicative of a dead short.

    No. A shorted diode will cause problems elsewhere with ghosted switches when the 'D target switch is closed. It's not a bad diode.

    You mentioned earlier that disconnecting a wire from the 'D' target resulted in it no longer showing switch 25 as closed in switch test which signifies the problem is local to the switch. Exactly which wire did you disconnect? If you've got the switch dangling in pieces and not touching it should be pretty much the same as being disconnected.

    Yes, it was the wire that connects to the side right solder tab and goes to the drop target for the #1 ball.

    I definitely had the switch open, separated and safely dangling and it still showed a closed #25 switch on the test.

    #28 60 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    You mentioned earlier that disconnecting a wire from the 'D' target resulted in it no longer showing switch 25 as closed in switch test which signifies the problem is local to the switch. Exactly which wire did you disconnect? If you've got the switch dangling in pieces and not touching it should be pretty much the same as being disconnected.

    I should have mentioned that I first disconnected the wire from the #25 d target switch to see if the test would not show it closed (it didn’t) and to see if I had any other closed switches (I did, #39 which is now fixed thanks to you). I then resoldered the wire so the switch was intact when it tested closed while dangling by itself.

    Not sure where to go from here, other than ordering a new target switch but that seems like a longshot. Any other suggestions are certainly appreciated.

    #29 60 days ago

    Can you unscrew the switch and post pictures of it side on showing the stack layers and where the metal blades/lugs are in the stack.

    #30 60 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Can you unscrew the switch and post pictures of it side on showing the stack layers and where the metal blades/lugs are in the stack.

    Yes, I’ll do that and post back. Thanks.

    #31 60 days ago

    I’m thinking if it shows closed spread apart it must be the diode connecting two metal tabs.

    IMG_8306 (resized).jpegIMG_8306 (resized).jpeg
    #32 60 days ago

    Here’s the switch unscrewed from a few angles.

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    #33 60 days ago

    One more.

    IMG_4497 (resized).jpegIMG_4497 (resized).jpeg
    #34 60 days ago

    What happened to the diode that was on the switch? The resistor that it's been replaced with will not work as intended.

    #35 60 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    What happened to the diode that was on the switch? The resistor that it's been replaced with will not work as intended.

    Yeah it broke off when I pulled the switch stack out. I’ll see if I’ve got another diode that will work and remove the resistor.

    #36 60 days ago

    Don’t have that diode. According to DaMoib , the correct diode is 1N4148 and I ordered them and they’ll be here tomorrow. In the meantime I can take the switch apart further if needed.

    #37 60 days ago

    Use a 1N4004 or 1N4007 diode, they will work perfectly fine. Banded side of the diode goes to the side lug.
    Or take the 1N4148 diode from the slam switch in the cabinet and install the new one there when the replacements come in.

    Both little tubes in the switch stack are damaged (squashed) not allowing you to lock the stack. If the unlocked lug isn't centered when you tighten the screws it might touch them and cause some short on the drop target frame.

    With the switch unscrewed, cut/disconnect the resistor. Does the game still show switch 25 as closed?

    #38 60 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Use a 1N4004 or 1N4007 diode, they will work perfectly fine. Banded side of the diode goes to the side lug.
    Or take the 1N4148 diode from the slam switch in the cabinet and install the new one there when the replacements come in.
    Both little tubes in the switch stack are damaged (squashed) not allowing you to lock the stack. If the unlocked lug isn't centered when you tighten the screws it might touch them and cause some short on the frame drop target frame.
    With the switch unscrewed, cut/disconnect the resistor. Does the game still show switch 25 as closed?

    I see the slam switch diode and will use it.

    After cutting resistor off and resoldering the black wire to the side tab that goes to the 1 ball drop target it tests 0 or open. I assume I should resolver in the new correct diode and retest?

    #39 60 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    assume I should resolver in the new correct diode and retest?

    Yup, put in the slam switch diode and retest.
    Do you have replacement switch stack tubes from an old switch of the approximate correct length?

    #40 60 days ago

    Ok great. I’ll look in my stash to see if I have something similar. Most all of my stuff is old em switches but I assume that the tubing could be compatible?

    #41 60 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    Most all of my stuff is old em switches but I assume that the tubing could be compatible?

    Yes the EM switch internal tubes should be the same diameter.

    BTW it looks like your 'E' standup target has been messed around with too, likely though it's been screwed on without the screws touching anything internally.

    Don't forget you'll also want to install capacitors back on those standup switches - nothing worse than fast switch hits not being recognised half the time.

    #42 60 days ago

    Thanks for reminding me about the capacitors. I’ll work on changing out the tubing and report back because unfortunately it still tests closed after installing the replacement diode from the slam switch.

    Good eye on the E target. It only works intermittently and they did indeed mess with it.

    Last question for now is which capacitors to order for those switches? Thanks for all the help. I’m learning.

    #43 60 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    which capacitors to order for those switches?

    Capacitors are only used on switches that have fast on/off activations. Generally standup targets, star rollovers, pop-bumpers.
    The same value capacitor is used on these switches which is a 0.047uF capacitor, sometimes marked as 473. I prefer to use the green polyester capacitors because the original round ceramic capacitors have an undesirably high failure rate.

    EBD_SwitchMatrix_Caps.jpgEBD_SwitchMatrix_Caps.jpg

    #44 60 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    I’ll work on changing out the tubing and report back because unfortunately it still tests closed after installing the replacement diode from the slam switch.

    And if you take the screws out of the switch is it still showing the switch closed in switch test?
    Can you take a clear picture from the side of the switch where the two side lugs are?
    You have a mechanical issue with that switch. I'm sure your EM experience should be able to work it out. Your multi-meter was telling you there is a dead short across the two side leafs with the gold contacts that is local on the switch.

    I have to head off and won't be back til later.

    #45 60 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Capacitors are only used on switches that have fast on/off activations. Generally standup targets, star rollovers, pop-bumpers.
    The same value capacitor is used on these switches which is a 0.047uF capacitor, sometimes marked as 473. I prefer to use the green polyester capacitors because the original ceramic capacitors have an undesirably high failure rate.
    [quoted image]

    Thanks for the info. I’ll order some today

    #46 60 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    And if you take the screws out of the switch is it still showing the switch closed in switch test?
    Can you take a clear picture from the side of the switch where the two side lugs are?
    You have a mechanical issue with that switch. I'm sure your EM experience should be able to work it out. Your multi-meter was telling you there is a dead short across the two side leafs with the gold contacts that is local on the switch.
    I have to head off and won't be back til later.

    I definitely will test it that way but I did test with the screws out and the switch dangling away from the rest of the switch stack and floating tab. I’ll try to get more and better pictures.

    #48 60 days ago

    Well finally the problem #25 switch is testing open and I got that beautiful ‘0’ showing on the switch test. I did what Quench and my friend DaMoib said to do and replace the frayed plastic tubing and that did the trick. It now scores like it should.

    Really appreciate Quench for his patience in helping me get both the d target and right pop bumper unstuck and working properly. I learned quite a bit.

    Only issue now is why the gameplay sounds are way off. I have all new Alltek boards that I know are good after going through some testing with Dave from Alltek. I’ll double check the game select dip switches but I don’t think that’s it.

    Oh well, one thing at a time.

    #49 59 days ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    Well finally the problem #25 switch is testing open and I got that beautiful ‘0’ showing on the switch test.

    Great!

    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    These look like them?

    Yes, they're the capacitors I use.

    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    Only issue now is why the gameplay sounds are way off.

    The type of game sounds is set through the coin door test switch. Keep pressing that switch until you see the number 18 in the Ball in Play display. Then press the start button on the front until the player displays show the number '03' which has the most expressive sound effects.

    SoundOptions1.pngSoundOptions1.png

    #50 59 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    The type of game sounds is set through the coin door test switch. Keep pressing that switch until you see the number 18 in the Ball in Play display. Then press the start button on the front until the player displays show the number '03' which has the most expressive sound effects.
    [quoted image]

    Thanks for the tip and all the help. Hopefully I can get it right and mark this thread resolved.

    There are 116 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.

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