(Topic ID: 200225)

Eight Ball Board Repair

By fatcake

6 years ago


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  • 42 posts
  • 12 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by fatcake
  • Topic is favorited by 6 Pinsiders

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#1 6 years ago

I recently acquired a completely thrashed Eight Ball. Upon initial power up, all I got was general illumination. No led flashes on the MPU board. I noticed a few glaring issues that are probably why the machine isn't playing its boot up chimes. I'm still learning a lot about pinball repair, so helpful guidance would be greatly appreciated!

Number one:
The solenoid driver board looks like it had a fire. Is there anywhere that will tell me what value resistors, diodes, and transistors I need for this board?

Number two:
The rectifier board looked like it had a fire as well. I'm assuming that I need to repin all of the connectors for this board. I feel like I'm going to have a few issues doing this though. Is there a way to see what wires area supposed to pin into the connectors for the rectifier board? It looks like someone cut wires on a few connectors (Note the brown and black wire on one connector and yellow and green on another). So I need to figure out what those wire originally went to. I also have an issue where there's a randomly disconnected orange wire with a ton of solder on it. No idea what that goes to. So I just need some help making sense of the wire harness.

Is there a way that I can see what voltages should be on the rectifier board? Granted I'm still learning, but I feel like maybe issues with the power supply have caused things to burn up?

Thanks in advance for all the help. I can't wait to get this thing back and chiming again!

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#2 6 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

The solenoid driver board looks like it had a fire. Is there anywhere that will tell me what value resistors, diodes, and transistors I need for this board?

Start with the manual at IPDB: http://ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=760

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#3 6 years ago

This all looks like typical Bally issues - the SDB (Solenoid Driver Board) likely burned up due to a locked up coil or bad driver transistor. The rectifier board connectors burned due to high current and time.

You will need to replace the connectors on the rectifier board, including the connectors that plug onto the board. You will need to repin the connectors to the MPU, as its likely they are worn out or damaged by a leaking battery. As insurance, any time I have to repin a connector, I repin both the male and female.

Follow the guides that are out there - they will walk you through what to expect voltage wise each step of the way. They will also tell you how to "bulletproof" the modules so stuff like you see won't happen again.

Learn to read the color codes for the wires - Bally uses numbers instead of colors (Usually). Once you learn the numbers, following the colored wires from one point to another is pretty straight forward.

Check back with us as you progress - there's a wealth of knowledge out here willing to help, if you're willing to listen and learn. Good Luck!

#4 6 years ago

Wonderful! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys.

I have been learning how to read the manual and schematics and I just want to double check I'm ordering the right parts.

Looks like my troublesome area is Q14. So if I read the schematic right, I should need the following parts?

Diode:
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/1N4004
Transistor:
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/TIP102
Resistor:
This one I wasn't sure about. Is the schematic saying 330 microfarad? Forgive me, I'm still new to all of this. 1/4 watt? 1/2 watt?
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/R025W330

I also grabbed kits to redo the connections on the rectifier board and driver board.

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#5 6 years ago

On your question about the Resistor...Ohms, The symbol on the schematic stands for Ohms. I don't know a lot so I had to jump in and get an answer in.

#6 6 years ago

Don't order your electronic parts from Marco. In addition to the resistors and transistors, you will need Molex pins and connectors for the rectifier board. Get all this from https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/ The prices and shipping are much cheaper.

Regarding the actual rectifier board, don't waste your time trying to repair the existing rectifier board. For as little as $35 you can get a brand rectifier board with 21st century parts and much better bridge rectifiers (you have to assemble the parts on the board). http://nvram.weebly.com/new-pcbs.html

1 week later
#7 6 years ago

So I bought the rectifier board replacement. I have some quick questions as I'm rebuilding the connectors.

It looks like someone cut the wires for General Ill. Bus and General Ill. Ret. on the J1. The J3 is especially confusing because there appears to be a cut wire where the key should be?

I'm a bit confused on how to read the schematic. Should there be a jumper wire between the J1 and J3 for Gen Ill Bus? Do I need to be searching the harness for loose wire that should go into Gen Ill Ret for J1?

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#8 6 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

The J3 is especially confusing because there appears to be a cut wire where the key should be?

The key should be at pin 7 on J3.

Quoted from fatcake:

Should there be a jumper wire between the J1 and J3 for Gen Ill Bus?

Nope.

Quoted from fatcake:

Do I need to be searching the harness for loose wire that should go into Gen Ill Ret for J1?

Yes. See that yellow round crimp that's floating - someone has done a "ground mod" by crimping those four G.I. return wires together and screwing the terminal to the chassis for ground return. That's not factory.

Originally the wires in that yellow crimp, the:
White playfield wire goes to J1 pin 1
Green playfield wire goes to J1 pin 2
Green backbox wire goes to J3 pin 1
White backbox wire goes to J3 pin 2

See the rectifier board connector wire coloring info here by pinsider Mk1Mod0
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tech-bally-power-supply-high#post-3978755

You want to replace the terminals in those connectors with "trifurcons" which contact the pins from 3 sides and gives greater surface area contact (opposed to the single sided contact of the original molex terminals used).

1 week later
#9 6 years ago

Is there a diagram that shows the color wires running from the transformer and what their respective positions are on the rectifier board? IE the red wire from the transformer runs to E4 on the rectifier board? I'm wanting to double check my work before I turn this thing on.

#10 6 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

Is there a diagram that shows the color wires running from the transformer and what their respective positions are on the rectifier board?

Yep, check out PinWiki here:

www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#How_To_Hook_Up_a_Bally_AS-2518-18_Rectifier_Board

2 weeks later
#11 6 years ago

So it has been awhile but I made some progress.

Redid the J connectors and put in the new rectifier. When I powered up I got GI, the LED on the mpu flashed, and there was a very loud hum. Shortly after power on, the 10 amp fuse on the rectifier board blew.

I'm assuming I have some coil locked on and that would explain the hum? What's the best way to track this down?

#12 6 years ago

There aren't too many coils in the table, you didn't see any of them activate on the playfield? Don't forget the coin door lockout coil, the chime coils, the knocker coil, and the outhole kicker coil.

Try replacing the fuse, but disconnecting the 3 connectors that go to almost all the playfield solenoids (J1, J2, and J5) this takes out most of the coils except the knocker (IIRC). Power back on and see if the fuse still blows. If so, the problem is in the backbox. If not, you can plug those connectors back in one at a time (with power off) and turn the game on. When you find the connector that makes the fuse blow, you will have narrowed down your search for a bad solenoid.

#13 6 years ago

The 10 amp fuse is for SW Illumination.

The hum was likely a locked on coil. See if one of the coil wrappers is brown, indicating it overheated. See if you can find it that way - disconnect the diode from the coil (If applicable), and read the resistance of the coil. Otherwise, replace the fuse, lift the playfied, turn on the machine and see which one locks on. You won't have much time - just a few seconds.

Take a good look at your Solenoid Driver board - see if any of the transistors have an obvious issue - burned up, lifted traces, etc.

#14 6 years ago

Looks like a trace on my brand new rectifier board got roasted. Any ideas as to how this happened or if I goofed? Perhaps the darker green wire on E10 is really more blue and needs to be on the second hole for E7?

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#15 6 years ago

Ouch! Yeah, the 3 decade fade on Bally blue can look green. Trace the wires back to the transformer lugs to make sure you have the right one in the right place.

Shawn

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#16 6 years ago

Awesome! Thank you! I'll double check my work tonight.

I should be able to run a jumper from that E10 solder point to the other end of the trace, right? Hopefully I didn't fry any components on the board.

#17 6 years ago

So here's what I did. I followed the diagram per Mk1Mod0 suggestion and corrected my mistake. I also ran a jumper to bypass the burnt trace I made.

Next I removed every single connector on every board. No connectors were plugged in on the mpu, lamp driver, solinoid driver, and rectifier. I powered on the machine and nothing blew. As expected.

I plugged in J1 on the rectifier board and powered on. No blown fuse.

After that I unplugged the J1 and plugged in the J2. I powered on and the 10 amp fuse immediately blew. So the issue seems isolated to the J2 and doesn't involve any problematic boards. I would have tested the J3 by itself next but I was out of fuses

How do I isolate the specific problem within the J2? Should I remove the pins and add them one by one to see which pin causes the fuse to blow?

#18 6 years ago

Plug in JUST J-2 to the rectifier board and try it. J-2 is what brings the A/C to the board. If it blows then, your problem is in the cab wiring. If it doesn't blow, but it does with J-1 added, your problem is in the play field. More difficult to find, but not impossible. Don't get discouraged!

Shawn

#19 6 years ago

Yup. It only blows with J2 plugged in. So the issue is isolated to the cabinet wiring.

How do I troubleshoot the cabinet wiring? Do I remove all the pins from the J2 and then add then back one by one and power on the cabinet each time?

#20 6 years ago

That would be one way. Start with the obvious. Unplug the coin door and try again.

#21 6 years ago

To start with, power it on with ONLY pins 6 and 7 of J2 connected. Those are the wires providing AC to the board. If the 10 amp fuse (F1) blows again, the problem is likely a shorted BR1 bridge rectifier, which could have resulted from the mis-wiring.

#22 6 years ago

Okay, I see that it only blows with J1 connected. Your post said it only blows with J2 plugged in, and I think you meant J1. Never mind.

#23 6 years ago

Great suggestions guys! I appreciate you dealing with my endless questions. I've been cutting my teeth on this Pinball for sure.

I'll try these things out and report back.

#24 6 years ago

So I removed all the pins in the J2 except for pins 6 and 7 per RoyGBev suggestion, and the fuse blew. Which means I toasted this board from my newb mistake.

There's a quick hum and buzz before the fuse blows. Is that just the roasted board making that noise or does the transformer make that noise?

#25 6 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

There's a quick hum and buzz before the fuse blows. Is that just the roasted board making that noise or does the transformer make that noise?

Could be either or. Bummed to see this latest post. If you only have 6 and 7 on J-2 plugged in and are still blowing F-1 chances are that BR1 is blown and shorted. You can verify that with your multimeter on diode check.

Shawn

#26 6 years ago

Figured I'd post my progress.

I redid the rectifier board with a new one and eliminated the 10A fuse blowing issue. Now the 5A fuse is blowing on power up.

Here's what I've troubleshooted. I disconnected the coin door. I looked at it closer and it was hacked up with lots of electrical tape. I disconnected every single board (mpu, lamp, and solinoid). I had all the j plugs connected to the rectifier board and it still blows the 5a.

I'll see if I can narrow it down some more tomorrow. For now I'm resting on it and going to raid home Depot for 5a fuses.

Thank you so much for all of your help guys. So far your suspicions have been totally correct!

#27 6 years ago

OK, getting closer. The 5A fuse is for the 43 volt coil bus. So you have a severe short on that line.
Here is a couple of tips,
The 43v coil bus services 3 areas of the game, Here are the power supply connections to check.
Playfield from J1-6 Yel
Backbox from J3-13 Wht/Yel
Cabinet from J2-2 Grn

Once you inspect these 3 wires remove them from the connectors and see if the game comes on without the fuse blowing. If not the rectifier or rectifier R1 resistor is blown. If the fuse does not blow then reinsert them one at a time until the fuse blows and you will have the problem narrowed down. You will need to inspect all coils in the region for browning indicating shorting or lock up. Start with the right bumper as that was the coil that took out Q14 in the beginning of this thread.

Some tips I learned over the years,
Is this game equipped with an MPU with brown chip sockets? Lots of them were. If so stop everything and replace it . Those boards with the Palmer sockets would lose their minds and start crashing the game or worse locking up coils and blowing fuses.

Because of the above it was decided to modify future games with a 1 amp slow-blow fuse on the playfield. The yellow wire coming from the transformer J1-6 went to the flippers then to a fuse holder and the remaining playfield coils had the 1A fuse in series with them. That way the playfield fuse would blow before the power supply and coil transistor was taken out. Bally recommended older games be retrofitted with playfield fuses to prevent further damage from bad or locked up playfield coils.

#28 6 years ago

BigAl56 Your troubleshooting technique worked beautifully! It's definitely the playfield solinoid bus causing the short. It was really awesome to see it boot up and chime! How did you know that the 5a correlated to solinoid buses? Did I miss that in the schematics?

I'll have to read up on how to test the coils and see if I can't track down the bad one. It's hard to tell if I coil is burnt up, or if it just has 30 years of dirt on it. The right bumper was wired up with two diodes instead of one diode like the rest of the bumper coils. Perhaps there's some odd fix going on there.

The left bumper coil looked pretty browned and so did the left slingshot. I'll look into those.

Thank you so much for your help guys!

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#29 6 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

I'll have to read up on how to test the coils and see if I can't track down the bad one. It's hard to tell if I coil is burnt up, or if it just has 30 years of dirt on it.

Chart at https://www.flippers.com/coil-resistance.html shows a Bally AN-26-1200 should have about 12.5 ohms resistance. The lower the resistance the higher the current draw. Drawing too much current will blow a fuse. I *think* you need to disconnect it from the circuit to test it but don't remember for sure. If your resistance is near zero the coil is fried and must be replaced.

There is a bunch of information on coils at http://www.pinballmedic.net/coil_chart.html

#30 6 years ago

I was the Bally R&D lab supervisory through the early 80s. Wired up many of these games and probably still know where every wire goes.

#31 6 years ago

I tested the coils. They look fine. However, I think I found the short.

I tested with my multimeter and there's a bridge where there shouldn't be. The pins at the yellow arrow have continuity with the pin at the red arrow. I tried to clean it up but it still bridges. Is there a way to make some jumpers and undo the bridge? Or am I stuck with buying a new board?

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#32 6 years ago

I am guessing that the burned area between the pins is conductive. Remove the transistor and verify that you still have the short. If so, you will need to remove the carbon between the lands. Not an easy task if you have never done it before. Basically, you remove the bad material, and replace it with two part epoxy, and add new eyelets.

You may be better off buying a new board.

#33 6 years ago

So I need a quick sanity check.

I did find a short on the solenoid board. I replaced the transistor that I believe was causing the issue. I'm still blowing the 5a fuse. I unplugged every connector on the solenoid board and it still blows the 5a. So my hunch that it was the board causing the short was probably not the full problem. So short still resides in the playfield...I think.

I've checked each coil and they look like they have the correct resistance. So I'm stumped as to which coil could be the problem. Could I just desolder every coil and see if the 5a still blows? If so, couldn't I just solder them back one by one and power on each time to find the short?

#34 6 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

I did find a short on the solenoid board. I replaced the transistor that I believe was causing the issue. I'm still blowing the 5a fuse. I unplugged every connector on the solenoid board and it still blows the 5a. So my hunch that it was the board causing the short was probably not the full problem. So short still resides in the playfield...I think.

If you unplug all the connectors for the solenoid driver board and it still blows fuses, that means the short is most likely on the rectifier board--not the coils. To test that theory, i suppose you could pull out the 1 amp fuse under the playfield to take the playfield coils out of the equation.

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

To test that theory, i suppose you could pull out the 1 amp fuse under the playfield to take the playfield coils out of the equation.

Perfect. That's exactly what I wanted to diagnose. I didn't know that fuse ran to every playfield coil.

I'm honestly hoping it's the playfield. If it's the rectifier board then I'll be completely stumped. This is the second new rectifier I've put in the machine. I triple checked my work when hooking it up to the transformer. Bad transformers are extremely rare, right? I'll let you guys know what I find tonight.

#36 6 years ago

Maybe I made some progress. Here's what I tested.

Test 1.
A. Solenoid board disconnected
B. 1a slow blow on underside of pf removed
Result: Blew the 5a fuse

Test 2.
A. Solenoid board connected
B. 1a slow blow on underside of pf connected
C. Removed pin 6 (yellow) from j1 connector on rectifier.
Result: 5a fuse was fine. Game boots and chimes. All non playfield solenoids kick and work fine. Pf solenoids obviously don't work due to removing pin 6.

So given these tests I don't think the short is in the actual playfield or coils. I'm guessing the short is in-between where pin 6 connects to the rectifier and to wherever the yellow wire runs to. Since we only blow whenever pin 6 is physically hooked up regardless of the 1a slow blow fuse. The first thing the yellow wire runs to should be the 1a slow blow fuse, right? So if that's correct the short is before that fuse?

1 week later
#37 6 years ago

So I'm beyond stumped. Here's what I tested.

I desoldered every single playfield coil. I have the solenoid board completely disconnected. As long as pin 6 on the J1 connector is plugged in, my 5 amp fuse will blow.

This has gotta mean there's an issue with my rectifier board right? Is there anything that I could test on my transformer or rectifier board to make sure the right voltages are running through this thing?

#38 6 years ago
Quoted from fatcake:

...
As long as pin 6 on the J1 connector is plugged in, my 5 amp fuse will blow.
...
This has gotta mean there's an issue with my rectifier board right?

No - this says you have a short in your wiring somewhere from the J1 connector pin 6 on into the playfield.
Tedious task but you're going to have to follow that wire from end to end.

#39 6 years ago

Your tests positively prove the short is in the 30 wire from the power supply to the playfield.
I missed the part where the 1 amp SB fuse was installed on the playfield, The original EB did not have one although some games were retrofitted.
The Flippers should be unfused so look at the wiring and orientation of the diodes on the flippers carefully. The 30 wire goes from the PS to the flippers then any installed fuse holders.

Taking this step by step here is what I would do:
*First, make sure the 30 wire is in fact plugged into pin 6 of J1 on the PS.
* Second, carefully follow the 30 wire in the harness to it's first stop. It should route to the flippers and then to the playfield fuse holder if there is one.
* Third, if you cannot see a short from a visual inspection cut all the tie-wraps holding the playfield cable harness together, unsolder from it's first stop, and pull out the 30 wire completely. There has to be a short in that wire.
* Finally, if you positively verify the 30 wire is clean, no shorts, remove it stop by stop from the other coils and flippers on the playfield. Divide and conquer.

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#40 6 years ago

Haha oh man. So you guys are gonna roll your eyes at me for this one. Chalk it up to inexperience on my side.

I followed Al's suggestion and started pulling what I *thought* was the 30 wire to see where it went. Turns out it went to the ground wire that runs throughout the whole playfield. So I immediately knew I had the wrong wire. That explains the instantly blowing the fuse. I went back to the J1 on the PS. Turns out 40 years of dirt turns a white wire yellow and a yellow wire brown. So this is twice now that the dirty harness has confused me! Oh well. I corrected the wiring on the J1 and the game works great!

I've got a lot of cosmetic work in front of me but luckily the complicated bits are solved now!

BigAl56 I wish I could buy you a beer or donate pinside premium to you! (Why doesn't that feature exist??) Your help was invaluable! It's people like you that keep this community thriving! Cheers!

I thought maybe you guys would like to see the cosmetic work and hacks that I have to correct. I really enjoy this coil sleeve that someone turned into a slingshot tip.

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#41 6 years ago

What a project.
You should start a new restoration thread. I would be interested to see your progress on the playfield.
Are you going to do an overlay?

#42 6 years ago

I made a new restoration thread over here: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/eight-ball-restoration-a-rookies-first-attempt#post-4165665

I'm not sure what I want to do with the playfield. I could do an overlay, but I also have a second playfield that's in fair shape. I can't really make my mind on how much time and money I want to throw into this project just yet. I don't want to overwhelm myself on my first restoration.

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