Hey guys,
I had a party last night and after about 150 plays, the two left flippers on my EBDLE stopped working. I looked under the hood and found no broken wires. Not sure what else to check haha
(Topic ID: 137252)
Linked Games
Eight Ball Deluxe Limited Edition
Bally, 1982
Topic Gallery
Rutland, VT
Okay, no traces bad on SDB. Connectors look good. Reseated everything. The cabinet switch is new as I replaced it right when I got the game. I cleaned it just in case, no luck. All wires are securely soldered to the coils and eos switches.
I believe the last test I have is to test the power to the coils.
I don't know how to use my multimeter. What setting do I need it on, where do I put each lead, and what reading am I looking for? Do I do it with the power on or off? Game plugged in?
Game on in attract. Playfield up on prop rod. Meter set to 50VDC== or higher (100, 200 OK). Black lead to cabinet ground braid. Red lead to each coil lug. Should see ~43 volts on all three lugs.
I got 45 volts on each lug for each flipper on the left. I checked the playfield fuses too. They seem fine too.
OK, sounds like you're having a ground fault. Check SDB J2.2. Reseat J2
If still inop, check J1.8. Reseat J1.
Any luck?
I reseated every connector on the sdb when i took it out to look for burnt tracers. Any other ideas? I'm surprised it hasn't been anything that you guys suggested yet.
A2 (Rect) J1.7 -> 43VDC -> [EOS switch] -> [Left flipper coil] -> A3 (SDB) J1.8 -> [Flipper Enable Relay] -> A3 J2.2 -> [Left Flipper Cabinet Button] -> A2 J2.2 -> GROUND.
Take an alligator clip lead and a piece of a jumbo paper clip. Connect one side of alligator to ground. Clip the other end on the piece of paper clip. Game up, Ball 1 in shooter. Quickly insert and remove clip into A3 J1.8. Does flipper fire?
Repeat test with A3 J2.2
Does flipper fire either time?
[Edit: added EOS in the chain]
Fixed! Thanks so much. I'm kind of embarrassed on what the cause was.
So when I was going to try your suggestion from your last post, I noticed a small two wire connector at the base of the head that leads to the left flippers was unplugged. I guess it came loose during play. Definitely never seen a connector mid wire before.
I definitely wouldn't have found it without all the suggestions! Thanks to everyone, especially Cody.
The important thing is that you got it fixed without going down a rabbit hole! Glad it was something simple.
Now, SINK THE EIGHT BAAAALL, CORNER POCKET!
Quoted from cody_chunn:A2 (Rect) J1.7 -> 43VDC -> [Left flipper coil] -> A3 (SDB) J1.8 -> [Flipper Enable Relay] -> A3 J2.2 -> [Left Flipper Cabinet Button] -> A2 J2.2 -> GROUND.
Take an alligator clip lead and a piece of a jumbo paper clip. Connect one side of alligator to ground. Clip the other end on the piece of paper clip. Game up, Ball 1 in shooter. Quickly insert and remove clip into A3 J1.8. Does flipper fire?
Repeat test with A3 J2.2
Does flipper fire either time?
Turns out that connector was not my issue. That was something else. Back to no left flippers. Makes me wonder why it went back to normal for a while.
I did this test and the flippers didn't fire for J2 or J1. Just to be sure I was doing it right I did the test for the right flipper and that one fired.
Also, that connector that I thought was for the flippers, was for the backbox light. I got rid of that light forever ago and put LED strips in there and just unplugged the connectors for the old light. I assume that had nothing to do with my issue though.
Quoted from chuckwurt:Turns out that connector was not my issue. That was something else. Back to no left flippers. Makes me wonder why it went back to normal for a while.
I did this test and the flippers didn't fire for J2 or J1. Just to be sure I was doing it right I did the test for the right flipper and that one fired.
Interesting. If J1.8 does NOT fire the coil, and +43VDC is present at all three lugs of the coil, you have a lack of continuity between J1.8 and the coil lug.
Let's go to the coil. Use your test clip lead connected to ground braid. Tap the coil lug with the green wire (this wire runs to J1.8 and should be on the outer lug with the thicker coil wire). Does coil fire?
Also, you can move the flipper bat freely by hand, yes?
Quoted from cody_chunn:Interesting. If J1.8 does NOT fire the coil, and +43VDC is present at all three lugs of the coil, you have a lack of continuity between J1.8 and the coil lug.
Let's go to the coil. Use your test clip lead connected to ground braid. Tap the coil lug with the green wire (this wire runs to J1.8 and should be on the outer lug with the thicker coil wire). Does coil fire?
Also, you can move the flipper bat freely by hand, yes?
Each lug tested at 43 volts. The flippers move freely. When I started a game and used my alligator clip thingy, I tapped the lug with the green wire. No dice.
Is it possible that I have faulty diodes on the coil? I have new coils if so. Just wondering why the flippers worked intermittently.
Bump. Gotta get this fixed before Tuesday so I can take this to Cleveland. Thanks again for all the help.
Bad diodes shouldn't prevent the coil from firing. Shorted would blow a fuse and opened would allow back-feed spikes but the coil should still work.
If you have +43 at the coil lugs and grounding the lug with the green wire fails to fire the coil, it sounds like you have a bad coil...but that doesn't really make sense if you're getting voltage on all lugs.
Did you try jumping the EOS? Just to see if it will flip...don't hold it up.
Quoted from cody_chunn:Did you try jumping the EOS? Just to see if it will flip...don't hold it up.
How do I do that? I opened the eos with my fingers and definitely felt current.
Use your alligator clip and hook it to the two solder tabs of the switch...or hook it to the two coil lugs with the small coil wires connected. If you look at the EOS wires, they are soldered to those two lugs, so electrically they are the same points in the circuit.
Make sure your right flipper still works...to verify we haven't blown a fuse.
No dice on the eos test. I also just replaced the coil on the left bottom flipper. No help there either. Any other ideas?
Applying a jumper from ground to the GREEN wire on the coil bypasses *everything* else in the return/ground path. You can perform the same test on the right flipper on the lug with the ORANGE wire. The coil *must* fire if it's getting +43 and you ground the return/ground lug.
Verify you have a good ground connection by firing the right flipper, then try again on the left. Until you can manually fire that coil with a ground jumper, the only things involved are power, wires, EOS and coil.
It's sounding like you have a broken primary winding. With Cody's last test you have verified everything except the coil itself. With everything reconnected normally, hold the flipper button in and push the flipper up by hand. Does it eventually pull in and hold? If so, the coil needs to be replaced or if you're lucky and the wire broke at the lug you can unwind a turn, strip and resolder.
Doo, not sure it's the primary winding as I replaced the coil with a new one last night. I will try this test none the less and let you guys know what I find.
I had a second before work, and I tried Doo's trick. I held in the left flipper button and manually raised the lower left flipper. It engaged and held up when I did that.
Like I said, the flipper coil on the bottom flipper is brand new. Do I need to replace the upper flipper coil too?
No, the upper flipper isn't involved yet. It gets fed power from the normally open switch piggy-backed on the lower's EOS switch. So forget about the upper for now.
Did you confirm you have a good ground by firing the right flipper with your jumper?
If yes:
Connect the alligator clip from ground to left flip green wire. Leave it connected. Now pinch the EOS switch contacts together and wiggle them a bit (CAREFUL - if it fires it can hit your finger). Use your hemostats or needle-nosed and grab each wire individually at the coil lugs and EOS solder tabs and wiggle them around. If the coil fires, immediately remove jumper, then fix the continuity problem.
If the coil never fires, I'm not sure what to tell you...if you have +43 on the green wire and nothing happens when you ground it...makes no sense.
Quoted from dothedoo:Have you posted a pic of your lower left flipper coil wiring, maybe in another thread?
I have not. Here are some pics I shot last night. I can get better ones tonight. Looks like a small hack down on the wire that is going to the right lug. Could that be my issue?
Quoted from chuckwurt:Could that be my issue?
The two coils are wired in series so their resistance is summed when power is applied to the right lug (brown wire) and ground is connected to the left lug (green wire). IIRC, the power winding measures about 3 ohms, the hold winding measures about 350 ohms.
The EOS switch shorts power across the hold winding, thus removing it from the circuit. When the flipper button is pressed, high current flows through the circuit because the power winding is low resistance and the hold winding is bypassed. As the flipper engages, the EOS switch is opened, and the short is removed. Current now flows through both windings, creating a high resistance, low current circuit.
If your splice is bad, especially if the wire is just wrapped around the other wire and not soldered, the result could be the same as an open or bad EOS switch. I would cut that splice and solder it directly to the right lug.
Quoted from dothedoo:If your splice is bad, especially if the wire is just wrapped around the other wire and not soldered,
soldered, but not as good as I would've done it. I will cut this splice and get it directly over to the right lug. I will report back tonight.
Fingers crossed.....
Okay. I got the two brown wires, one from the eos one from the wire harness on the right lug directly.
When I powered up and started a game, still no dice. Then I held in the flipper button, and manually lifted up the flipper until it engaged. Then, it started working again. Not sure if what I did did the trick, but either way it's working again now.
Thanks again for the help. Let me know if you think what I did was only a temporary fix or if I will have to just let time tell.
Quoted from dothedoo:I think it will rear it's ugly head again
The only other thing I can think of is the eos. If the contacts of the Normally closed leafs are pitted, could that be causing it? I don't think the normally open contacts are the problem as the upper flipper always works as long as the lower one does.
That's where I'd start, but I thought you already tried running an alligator jumper across the EOS switch.
Quoted from dothedoo:That's where I'd start, but I thought you already tried running an alligator jumper across the EOS switch.
Oh yeah. Duh. Haha
Thanks. I honestly think it's the EOS. I just don't have one handy to try cause this needs that goofy stacked one since it's connected to the upper flipper. Hopefully this game lasts through the show in Cleveland, if it doesn't, hopefully I can get a new EOS on site and just install it.
I think my solder points on the coil are good as I reflowed when I replaced the coil.
When you measure resistance between the center lug and the green wire lug what does it read? Should be about 3 ohms.
Quoted from dothedoo:When you measure resistance between the center lug and the green wire lug what does it read? Should be about 3 ohms.
I'll have to check after I set it up at the show tomorrow. Do I measure resistance same way I do volts, just switch my dial on the DM to ohms?
Quoted from dothedoo:Yes. I'm sure someone at the show will help you if you still have issues.
That's what I'm hoping. I know this would be fixed easily if it goes down at the show and someone was kind enough to help.
If you have 50, 100, 220, 400, 600, 1200, 2000 grits of sandpaper, you may be able to get it going good enough to last the show. Tear the papers into 1" by 2" pieces. Fold them into 1/2" X 2" pieces with grit facing out. Start with 50, and slide the folded piece in between the points and work it back and forth a few dozen times. Repeat with 100 and so on until 2K.
This won't get all the pitting out, but it should reveal a few spots that will become shiny and conduct enough current to fire the coil dependably.
Later you can take the EOS out and file them properly.
1 week later
Update. Ran it all weekend at Cleveland, and the flippers worked fine the whole time. I will keep an eye on it, but will mark this resolved for now. thanks again for all the help guys!
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