(Topic ID: 302625)

Early SS machines are reaching a turning point

By MtnFrost

2 years ago


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    #1 2 years ago

    I was recently talking to Steve Young at PBR, and we had a great conversation about the state of the pinball supply chain. The top line is simply this: that while the days of distributors having old stock of pinball parts has long ended, we are reaching the end of the remaining supplies. No, not for your latest Stern, but for pins from the early era of SS games, favorites like Centaur, Fathom, and other machines from the era, we're hitting the end of the line for part sources. Specifically, this includes the supply of donor games, spare partially-populated PFs, old storage bins, and all the other sources we've relied on to bring dead pins to life. And while I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, the way we approach buying and restoring older pins is going to change. And it's been changing for awhile now.

    Yes, there are some things we can get now, that we never could in the past - new playfields, new plastics, new backglasses, all lovingly remanufactured with great care and precision. And of course, we have options for LED displays and playfield lights, options to replace those old boards with newer electronics. Things like playfield posts and flipper bats remain available and plenty. So what's the issue?

    Several game manufacturers, but primarily Williams and Bally, allowed the designers to include unique parts and sizes for things like ball gates, posts and other playfield items for their games. Meaning that when you look at a part number, for instance a gate on Centaur, ASE-2250-99, that -99 means the 99th version of the wire gate. Common sense would assume that games within a similar year and layout would use a standardized part size for economy. So you'd assume that a flipper return gate for Medusa, Flash Gordon and Centaur would all use the same gate, thus saving the extra cost and manufacturing time to produce unique gates. And we'd all assume wrong. In this case, they aren't the same. Bally and Williams allowed designers great leeway in these parts. Gottlieb did not. I do not have information on what Stern did back in the day.

    What this means in practical terms is this - you cannot get replacement parts for some items, and that list is growing all the time. Some of you looking for game-specific ramps have run into this for years now. Finding replacement #555 sockets for Bally pins has become increasingly difficult to source. The unavailability of less flashy playfield parts, I believe, has run under our collective radar. It certainly had run under mine.

    Gone or rare is the beater machine or partially populated playfield on ebay and other online markets. Perhaps local meets are still an option, though I cannot comment on this. I'm not certain about you, but I see far less machines being parted out these days. There's more interest in grabbing beaters and restoring them - because they have become too valuable and too desirable to be disassembled. And that's a good thing. But all this does mean we have to consider missing items more carefully before buying that next project pin - does it have all the hardware, and if not, are sources available? Some items are extremely difficult to find these days. If sources don't exist, are we willing to become manufacturers ourselves, creating one-off items for our machines, but unable to produce more than a few due to the cost of our time and labor? It doesn't appear that the cost of remanufacturing certain parts will ever make financial sense, so some pinball parts are going to continue to become scarce. I had thought there were only a few parts, like specific ramps, where hard to find. I hadn't realized how many smaller items are no longer available without a great deal of hunting.

    These are new challenges, and one I'm certain our hobby with address. I found the discussion of current supply chains enlightening, I hope you do too.

    #2 2 years ago

    Honestly this isn't anything new for this era of games. It has always been hard to track down a missing ball gate, or unique part on most of these games. Those 555 sockets you mention were never reproduced nor a large stock of NOS ever offered for sale from one of our suppliers. You could find then from time to time but it wasn't ever "easy".

    I don't know maybe you haven't been doing this for as long as some of us, but nothing about restoring this era of games has ever been "easy". It has become better with all of the reproduction parts you mention. Go back to the 90's and try to restore one... it was really really hard, and a lot of games were parted out as a result.

    #3 2 years ago
    Quoted from Xenon75:

    Honestly this isn't anything new for this era of games. It has always been hard to track down a missing ball gate, or unique part on most of these games. Those 555 sockets you mention were never reproduced nor a large stock of NOS ever offered for sale from one of our suppliers. You could find then from time to time but it wasn't ever "easy".
    I don't know maybe you haven't been doing this for as long as some of us, but nothing about restoring this era of games has ever been "easy". It has become better with all of the reproduction parts you mention. Go back to the 90's and try to restore one... it was really really hard, and a lot of games were parted out as a result.

    My viewpoint is from someone who did a lot of restoring about 10-15 years ago, and has now come back to the hobby. The changes from my perspective are pretty stark. I'm aware it's been going on for quite some time. But hearing it from Steve, and his perspective, really brought it home to me. I've always known that some things were difficult to source, but never for the little things. That seems to be the biggest change I've seen.

    #4 2 years ago

    Steve is ALWAYS sounding the panic alarm for parts. I remember 15 years ago he claimed we'd no longer be able to get Gottlieb Fat Boy flipper bats soon.

    I'd just take his warnings of doom with a big grain of salt.

    Really not very concerned. As long as they are still making new boards - of which they are, for an entire bally/stern set - as well as still making new connector parts, we won't have any trouble keeping/getting these games working.

    and return gate wires?! This is really troubling you? As long as they make and sell metal piano wire, you'll always be able to bend something into a useful gate wire.

    #5 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Steve is ALWAYS sounding the panic alarm for parts. I remember 15 years ago he claimed we'd no longer be able to get Gottlieb Fat Boy flipper bats soon.
    I'd just take his warnings of doom with a big grain of salt.
    Really not very concerned. As long as they are still making new boards - of which they are, for an entire bally/stern set - as well as still making new connector parts, we won't have any trouble keeping/getting these games working.
    and return gate wires?! This is really troubling you? As long as they make and sell metal piano wire, you'll always be able to bend something into a useful gate wire.

    You know of a source for various unique Bally gate brackets? Wires are easy.

    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from MtnFrost:

    You know of a source for various unique Bally gate brackets? Wires are easy.

    I do not.

    Just a piece of metal with some bends and holes in it. I think you can probably make one for yourself if you really need it.

    Either that or PANIC IN THE STREETSSS!!!!!!!

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from MtnFrost:

    t doesn't appear that the cost of remanufacturing certain parts will ever make financial sense, so some pinball parts are going to continue to become scarce.

    This has been a constant challenge of game repair. It's nothing new.

    Certain parts are always going to be harder to find than others. Yes, it can be a scavenger hunt, but that's sometimes part of the fun.

    Quoted from MtnFrost:

    You know of a source for various unique Bally gate brackets? Wires are easy.

    Find someone who can cut a gate on a laser cutter and bend it? Or use a scroll saw and do it yourself?

    Honestly, we have *significantly* more resources available to creating parts today than even a few years ago, with all the new and affordable technology that has become available.

    #8 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I do not.
    Just a piece of metal with some bends and holes in it. I think you can probably make one for yourself if you really need it.
    Either that or PANIC IN THE STREETSSS!!!!!!!

    True enough - my point was only that we'll have to being doing a lot more of that as these game get older. I'm not advocating panic, merely pointing out that there's less to work with, and to hear how others have been and will approach these things.

    #9 2 years ago
    Quoted from MtnFrost:

    True enough - my point was only that we'll have to being doing a lot more of that as these game get older. I'm not advocating panic, merely pointing out that there's less to work with, and to hear how others have been and will approach these things.

    How do you think the EM guys are still fixing their games? Some of those games are decades older, and they're able to still keep those going.

    The sky is not falling here; no reason to panic.

    #10 2 years ago

    I needed a rare Stern/chicago coin target, a cool stranger sent me a mint one, I sent him Beer Money.

    This hobby is full of cool, and innovative people.
    No parts challenge is unsolvable.

    So chill out, it'll all work out.

    Cheers.

    #11 2 years ago

    Where there's a will, there's a way. Take the long unavailable C-972-1 Bally kicker post for FBII & Medusa. I have a couple NOS ones and sent one to have it reproduced. Got back a prototype to test:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/resin-casting-pinball-parts-bally-kicker-post

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    This has been a constant challenge of game repair. It's nothing new.
    Certain parts are always going to be harder to find than others. Yes, it can be a scavenger hunt, but that's sometimes part of the fun.

    Find someone who can cut a gate on a laser cutter and bend it? Or use a scroll saw and do it yourself?
    Honestly, we have *significantly* more resources available to creating parts today than even a few years ago, with all the new and affordable technology that has become available.

    That's my point - now, instead of merely ordering a rare part, we have to have the ability to make it instead. That's the change I've seen since coming back into the hobby - and it means you need to have access to a good machine shop or a well-stocked work bench. It's not meant to be a cry of the-sky-is-falling, merely an acknowledgement that restorers have to be more creative in their approaches.

    #13 2 years ago
    Quoted from MtnFrost:

    That's my point - now, instead of merely ordering a rare part, we have to have the ability to make it instead. That's the change I've seen since coming back into the hobby - and it means you need to have access to a good machine shop or a well-stocked work bench. It's not meant to be a cry of the-sky-is-falling, merely an acknowledgement that restorers have to be more creative in their approaches.

    We are ready baby!!!!

    I've always had a "whatever it takes" attitude...doen't have to look OEM as long as it works in my opinion.

    #14 2 years ago

    The amount of parts I've seen go out of stock with no plans/way to get more, or have even been the person who bought the last one available, just in the past few years, is definitely concerning to me. Most weren't even one-game parts either.

    I make it a point when I see weirder, game specific parts to inquire whether they're NOS or remanufactured. If they're new, I'll stock up whatever I can see my games possibly needing, in part to encourage continued manufacture, and if they're NOS I'll avoid buying them if mine are still serviceable enough

    #15 2 years ago

    You guys wanna live at the bottom of the world in a pinball desert.

    Even ordering from PBR is an ordeal. And anything we order from the States takes 3-6 weeks to show up. And USPS has turned to shit, both cost and service wise.

    So we just make shit. Gates, flaps, whatever. Just easier to make it.

    rd

    #16 2 years ago

    I am not set up to fabricate parts - though even if I did, I have no idea where to get the materials (metal for gate brackets, for instance). It's certainly a new world from the pinball hobby I left back around 2011....

    However I did get another question answered here - replacement parts that were made by hobbyists do not detract from the value of the game. From what I'm hearing, it's considered fine, as long as the work is good.

    #17 2 years ago

    Also you need to consider there are going to be less and less projects available so the need for parts that basically last a lifetime in home use won’t be needed much anymore like ball gate frames.

    Parts that wear out or break are more available now then ever before such as displays and circuit boards

    Mike V

    #18 2 years ago

    How many Nip-It owners have been searching for a ball grabber unit for years? I imagine there are/will be unique components that are unobtainable and too difficult to fabricate yourself.

    #19 2 years ago

    Anytime I get an EM added to the collection I’m calling Steve for parts you cannot make on your own.

    Making pop bumper bodies and wafers etc on your own would seem much harder than making a ball gate. I’m sure someone would step up with a 3D printer but is the plastic formula going to hold up over time and the abuse from a ball?

    I just cut the anxiety and get what I need while I can get it. Yes EM parts have always been readily available forever. But a lot of that relies on Steve and he isn’t going to be forever. Even if someone takes over for him I’d assume that business would need to be modernized and there would be down time.

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    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from EJS:

    Anytime I get an EM added to the collection I’m calling Steve for parts you cannot make on your own.
    Making pop bumper bodies and wafers etc on your own would seem much harder than making a ball gate. I’m sure someone would step up with a 3D printer but is the plastic formula going to hold up over time and the abuse from a ball?
    I just cut the anxiety and get what I need while I can get it. Yes EM parts have always been readily available forever. But a lot of that relies on Steve and he isn’t going to be forever. Even if someone takes over for him I’d assume that business would need to be modernized and there would be down time.[quoted image]

    Looks like you might be able to start your own EM parts business!

    #21 2 years ago
    Quoted from MtnFrost:

    You know of a source for various unique Bally gate brackets? Wires are easy.

    I bet Cliffy could make those. May even be easier than many of the awesome protectors he makes.

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