(Topic ID: 320241)

Early Mutha Board - Trials and Tribulations, Return to service help

By BigAl56

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 19 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 77 days ago by barakandl
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    IMG_2473 (resized).jpeg
    1-b234d3552af3f643821046492b32a60984967c2f.pdf (PDF preview)
    20240201_094206 (resized).jpg
    20240201_094518 (resized).jpg
    20220809_145433 (resized).jpg
    20220809_145428 (resized).jpg
    #1 1 year ago

    Been working on my Bally Power Play game. When I got it it had a battery acid damaged original Bally -17 MPU. Thanks to Andrew over at barakandl I installed a modern MPU and the game is running great.

    Flashback 25 years ago. Tom Callahan reached out and asked me if I would trial a new MPU he was working on called the Mutha Board. I was flattered and agreed to install one in my home Paragon game. Serial #4 came with Paragon Proms and worked as well as the original, later I used it in my sadly missed Fathom game where Mutha performed equally well as the original.

    Yada Yada, 25+ years go by and I was clearing out of a storage locker I had been using, in a box labeled 'pinball parts' I came across Mutha board #4. I thought it would be a great tribute to Tom to put the board back in service. I also love old things that still work, like me. There was some modest battery leakage but only the battery holder was affected. I contacted Clive over at Coinop Cauldron and he sent me a set of proms. I also removed the batteries and added an NVRAM.
    To my pleasant surprise the board booted and the game played nominally. The boards test LEDs had failed and no longer functioned but otherwise the game played great freeing up my B&I board for other projects.

    This brings me to today, a few weeks ago the Mutha board failed. I noted an issue with the switch matrix where the switch in the row above would register at the same time. Roll over Switch 36 and 35 will show closed. This occurred across the entire row. I assumed that I2 and I3 of the matrix were shorted so I went through all the usual troubleshooting methods. After tearing up the cables I finally reinstalled the B&I board and the game worked fine. Whatever the problem was it was on the Muthaboard. I swapped PIAs, examined for shorts and nothing worked. Putting on my engineers cap again I decided the problem had to be with a bad input cap so I replaced the 330 pf input caps on the affected 'I' lines which fixed the switch problems. While I was at it I replaced the LEDs and now have working test indicators.

    Which brings me to today. After replacing the caps a new problem, I was only getting 5 flashes which indicates a problem with the display interrupt. Sure enough a logic probe showed the DIG was locked on. I ohmed out the resistors and replaced the .1uf poly cap. The cap fixed the the DIG and now the board boots.
    But now the displays come up flickering. That's usually a sign of a malfunctioning DIG. I replaced the cap again and put in a new 36K resistor and replaced the 555, but same result, flashing flickering displays.

    Lots of smart people hear what do you think?
    Pictures of Mutha below but my camera cannot properly capture the flashing displays.
    20220809_145428 (resized).jpg20220809_145428 (resized).jpg20220809_145433 (resized).jpg20220809_145433 (resized).jpg

    #2 1 year ago
    Quoted from BigAl56:

    Been working on my Bally Power Play game. When I got it it had a battery acid damaged original Bally -17 MPU. Thanks to Andrew over at barakandl I installed a modern MPU and the game is running great.
    Flashback 25 years ago. Tom Callahan reached out and asked me if I would trial a new MPU he was working on called the Mutha Board. I was flattered and agreed to install one in my home Paragon game. Serial #4 came with Paragon Proms and worked as well as the original, later I used it in my sadly missed Fathom game where Mutha performed equally well as the original.
    Yada Yada, 25+ years go by and I was clearing out of a storage locker I had been using, in a box labeled 'pinball parts' I came across Mutha board #4. I thought it would be a great tribute to Tom to put the board back in service. I also love old things that still work, like me. There was some modest battery leakage but only the battery holder was affected. I contacted Clive over at Coinop Cauldron and he sent me a set of proms. I also removed the batteries and added an NVRAM.
    To my pleasant surprise the board booted and the game played nominally. The boards test LEDs had failed and no longer functioned but otherwise the game played great freeing up my B&I board for other projects.
    This brings me to today, a few weeks ago the Mutha board failed. I noted an issue with the switch matrix where the switch in the row above would register at the same time. Roll over Switch 36 and 35 will show closed. This occurred across the entire row. I assumed that I2 and I3 of the matrix were shorted so I went through all the usual troubleshooting methods. After tearing up the cables I finally reinstalled the B&I board and the game worked fine. Whatever the problem was it was on the Muthaboard. I swapped PIAs, examined for shorts and nothing worked. Putting on my engineers cap again I decided the problem had to be with a bad input cap so I replaced the 330 pf input caps on the affected 'I' lines which fixed the switch problems. While I was at it I replaced the LEDs and now have working test indicators.
    Which brings me to today. After replacing the caps a new problem, I was only getting 5 flashes which indicates a problem with the display interrupt. Sure enough a logic probe showed the DIG was locked on. I ohmed out the resistors and replaced the .1uf poly cap. The cap fixed the the DIG and now the board boots.
    But now the displays come up flickering. That's usually a sign of a malfunctioning DIG. I replaced the cap again and put in a new 36K resistor and replaced the 555, but same result, flashing flickering displays.
    Lots of smart people hear what do you think?
    Pictures of Mutha below but my camera cannot properly capture the flashing displays.
    [quoted image][quoted image]

    Can you measure the frequency of the display interrupt and compare it to the a board that the displays look good? Perhaps the cap or resistor is out of tolerance and the interrupt is too slow or there is some other kind of issue (HV ripple?). Instead of a single 36K resistor, using 24K resistor and 10K trimpot wired up like a rheostat gives you a nice usable range, but 6 digit games are normally very forgiving the a wide range of display interrupt speed. If it is too fast, the chimes and other features timed like bonus countdown is interrupted more often. 6 digit games you probably want to stay around 320-360hz.

    Flickering display are typically problem in super busy games like Vector and Mr Mrs Pac. You can get stuck in this odd interrupt / clock timing where lots of things choke up like the display and triac GI driver flicker, just spinning the display interrupt trim pot into the sweet spot for those games clears up the lamp and (most of) the display flickering.

    Check around the display blanking circuit. There is an R/C (R30 270K C18 47nF) that can blank the display if it thinks the computer is not updating quick enough. If say there was accidently stuffed a 4.7nF or 27K resistor there it might flicker bad.

    #3 1 year ago

    The ceramic cap at C17 to the right of the 555 looks damaged.
    barakandl pretty much covered the rest with measuring the display interrupt frequency and HV ripple. Usually if the HV at TP4 on the SDB measures around 160V it's rippling so C26 (160uF 350V cap) has a cracked solder joint, is faulty or there's an open circuit on the ground return path at SDB J3-3.

    #4 1 year ago

    I will replace the noted caps and look closer at the blanking circuit. The game does go through the HSTD blank sequence properly so I'm skeptical that the blanking is the problem but I'm running out of things to check. Unfortunately, I have no way to measure frequency so I'm limited to making a judgement call to replace caps. Resistors are ohming out correctly.

    I'm doing kitchen table repairs so it's possible I stressed some capacitors while laying the board down on the table to solder. C17 and C18 look like candidates to repair.

    #5 1 year ago

    Does your logic probe have a buzzer? If yes, does the buzzing frequency on the 555 output sound different to any 6 digit -17 / -35 game you have?

    If you've got a 22k - 27k ohm resistor try it in R21 and see what happens. If there's no real change the problem probably isn't around the Display Interrupt Generator.

    What happens if you retry @barakandl's MPU board?

    #6 1 year ago

    I have the B&I MPU in it now. It runs fine. Power Play is a -17 MPU all 6-digit displays
    I replaced R21 with a new 36K 1% that I confirmed with my meter, same issue.
    With original C16 555 was locked high. Replacing C16 with a new cap got the 555 running again and got my board booting past 5 flashes. Now It boots and runs fine but the displays are flashing. Reinstalling Andrews B&I board and the game runs nominally. So problem is definitely with the Muthaboard.

    1 year later
    #7 82 days ago

    Update, finally fixed Mutha. I had tried replacing about all suspect parts to no avail. Then I backtracked. Capacitors C31-40 were supposed to be 390PF per the MPU schematic. On Tom's board, which is supposed to be a near exact reproduction, he used 470pf caps. Thinking it was an early mistake I outguessed his logic and replaced with the proper 390pf caps. Changing them back to Toms value of 470 fixed the problem. Go figure. must have something to do with how the 6802 scans the matrix.

    Now I'm using the Mutha in my Skateball game I am restoring. Trying to understand how switches 1-5 and 9-13 are wired. I remember Tom telling me that he hardwired them to save on dip switches but I can't remember. Anyone out there have support documentation for this board that they are willing to share?

    Thanks for all the past help.

    20240201_094206 (resized).jpg20240201_094206 (resized).jpg20240201_094518 (resized).jpg20240201_094518 (resized).jpg
    #8 82 days ago
    Quoted from BigAl56:

    Trying to understand how switches 1-5 and 9-13 are wired. I remember Tom telling me that he hardwired them to save on dip switches but I can't remember.

    Looking at the picture of your board, I don't see the diode support circuitry for DIP switches 1-5 and 9-13 so don't think they're wired at all, in other words those switches are always read as "off".

    Quoted from BigAl56:

    Anyone out there have support documentation for this board that they are willing to share?

    See attached PDF - thanks to tomdrum for posting it:

    1-b234d3552af3f643821046492b32a60984967c2f.pdf1-b234d3552af3f643821046492b32a60984967c2f.pdf

    #9 82 days ago

    Wow thanks @quench! You wouldn't have a schematic would you? I'm intrigued about the freeplay relay. My original from 97 doesn't have that, or at least I think it doesn't.

    #10 82 days ago

    The relay monitors the coin lockout line and whenever the coin lockout allowed coins it clicked up a credit switch until credits were back to max.

    There's a Gameroom magazine article about it iirc. In it Tom also said he doesn't trust rom hacks

    #11 82 days ago
    Quoted from BigAl56:

    Wow thanks @quench! You wouldn't have a schematic would you? I'm intrigued about the freeplay relay. My original from 97 doesn't have that, or at least I think it doesn't.

    Here’s the free play chip that came with my MUTHA board. It’s installed in my Eight Ball.

    IMG_2473 (resized).jpegIMG_2473 (resized).jpeg
    #12 82 days ago
    Quoted from BigAl56:

    You wouldn't have a schematic would you?

    I'm afraid I don't have the schematics

    Quoted from BigAl56:

    I'm intrigued about the freeplay relay. My original from 97 doesn't have that, or at least I think it doesn't.

    Looks like your board doesn't have the socket for the solid state relay chip to do freeplay - see the green socket on this board located around the capacitors you resoldered.
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/evel-knievel-with-revision-12-muthapcb-not-booting-up#post-5057850

    #13 81 days ago

    So now I have another problem, I cant advance beyond self-test to set replays and game features. See this thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-mutha-board-made-by-the-repair-connection-6802#post-8010458

    Started doing this after I set a high score. I think I can fix it if there was a way to clear the memory settings. However with NVRAM installed I don't see a way to do that.

    #14 81 days ago

    Here's my response copy'n'pasted from the other thread:

    Hi BigAl56 , you need to run a ROM with code specifically to wipe all the NVRAM.

    barakandl hosts some simple ROM code to achieve it. You can find it at the very bottom of this page called "ram_clear.zip".
    https://nvram.weebly.com/mpu.html

    Burn the U6.2732 code to an EPROM and plug it into U6.
    Power on, when the MPU LED starts flashing it's done.

    Alternatively if your EPROM programmer supports 6116 SRAM chips you can probably erase it there.

    #15 81 days ago
    Quoted from slochar:

    The relay monitors the coin lockout line and whenever the coin lockout allowed coins it clicked up a credit switch until credits were back to max.
    There's a Gameroom magazine article about it iirc. In it Tom also said he doesn't trust rom hacks

    On my Eight Ball, it adds 3 credits on power up and 3 more after every ball, until credits are maxed.

    #16 81 days ago
    Quoted from Quench:

    Hi BigAl56 , you need to run a ROM with code specifically to wipe all the NVRAM.

    barakandl hosts some simple ROM code to achieve it. You can find it at the very bottom of this page called "ram_clear.zip".
    https://nvram.weebly.com/mpu.html

    Burn the U6.2732 code to an EPROM and plug it into U6.
    Power on, when the MPU LED starts flashing it's done.

    Alternatively if your EPROM programmer supports 6116 SRAM chips you can probably erase it there.

    Of course, being a semi-retired senior citizen I have none of that equipment. I suppose I could get Clive over at COC to make this chip, but at this point I'm thinking it's no longer worth the effort or expense. What if I put my Power Play Roms back in??? I may be able to erase the scores from inside there. I'll try that, then it's time to admit I tried, throw in the towel, and order up a new Weebly BnI board.

    #17 81 days ago

    You could try something a little brutal.

    Mentally note the high score to date.
    Put the game into display test mode and hit the Activity Switch on the MPU board a few times. This will cause the MPU to crash and in some instances it corrupts the NVRAM (maybe enough to fix your issue). Switch off and back on. If the high score to date hasn't changed then try the process again.

    I suggest doing this with J4 disconnected from the solenoid driver board to prevent any coils locking on when the MPU board crashes.

    #18 78 days ago
    Quoted from BigAl56:

    What if I put my Power Play Roms back in??? I may be able to erase the scores from inside there. I'll try that,

    Quench , This worked! With Power Play Roms installed I was able to get the game up and advance into bookkeeping setting. From inside there I advanced through and reset everything back to 0. Then I reinstalled Skateball Proms and was able to advance into the audit settings and set my replay score thresholds, and sound options.

    #19 77 days ago

    I've gotten road blocked in a similar way on a 6803 game. Bad audit register choked up the software. The road blocking issue was the problem register it locked up on showed up before restore factory settings register.

    This wouldnt have helped in your situation, but I have noticed if you push the NMI button immediately after advancing past the final audit you can get the software to crash which may dump on the NVRAM.

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/early-mutha-board-trials-and-tribulations-return-to-service-help?hl=bigal56 and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.