Frontier
Bally, 1980So I have a strong feeling the MPU needs to be replaced as there are several issues but before I get to that point I want to figure out the power situation. All voltage readings are good except TP 3. It's to be 11.9v DC. (Range according to what I've found online is 10.5-13.3) It's testing 15 v dc.
1st... is that too high outside the range... and 2nd how do I solve that issue?
The other question I have...Displays are all out but I'm not sure if that's a problem since it isn't booting. Perhaps they come up after the boot. My MPU is giving me the solid LED with no flashes.
However... wanted to ask a question about whether or not damage could be done by having them placed wrong. I just bought this machine and haven't moved any... however I was just looking at it tonight and all of a sudden it occurred to me that the 6 digit credit display had switched places with the player 2, 7 digit display. At some point, someone took them out and obviously swapped the two in error. I've switched them back but Im wondering the likely hood they're ruined.
Update on the displays. I've reseated U2. displays start flickering almost like they're goig through a test mode through the number. Some play field inserts are flickering and the speakers are making all sorts of noise. Reseated all other chips. No change. Led still solid
I wouldn't worry about 15 vs 11. Displays don't convey data until the MPU passes POST, and blinks the LED X7.
Shot in the dark: replace the 5101 RAM and go from there...AFTER rebuilding all the connectors...both sides. Cannot stress enough the importance of new connector pins and headers.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#LED_locked_on
LED locked on means the reset circuit isn't working. Check the pinwiki link above. It gives you some tests you can do to isolate it. A couple of these tests has reasonable solutions if you are handy with a soldering iron. Otherwise there are several techs on pinside that can fix it for you.
Quoted from Cheddar:http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#LED_locked_on
LED locked on means the reset circuit isn't working. Check the pinwiki link above. It gives you some tests you can do to isolate it. A couple of these tests has reasonable solutions if you are handy with a soldering iron. Otherwise there are several techs on pinside that can fix it for you.
Reset working fine. Tested it by shorting u9pin 39-40 with the tester. Voltage goes from 5vdc to 0 when you short them and back up when you move to just pin 40.
Quoted from Pauz21:Update on the displays. I've reseated U2. displays start flickering almost like they're goig through a test mode through the number. Some play field inserts are flickering and the speakers are making all sorts of noise. Reseated all other chips. No change. Led still solid
This is just garbage outputs. Your MPU is not booting up if it is no flashing the LED 7 times. Any game activity before the POST LED flashes is completely erroneous.
Focus on making the MPU boot up. If it has corrosion and the behavior changed after reseating the chips, the IC sockets are probably shot among other things. Battery damage will waste and short out u8 pins together which will lock up the entire MPU.
LED stays on can have any number of reasons. Not just the reset circuit.
It just means that the program isn't running.
It can be the reset circuit, corrosion, but also some inverter IC used for selecting a ROM or so. E.g. U17.
Or the sockets of the IC's. I have encountered those reasons many times now.
With a logic probe the signals can be measured. Especially the VMA line and U17 or U18.
Quoted from Richard_BoK:LED stays on can have any number of reasons. Not just the reset circuit.
It just means that the program isn't running.
It can be the reset circuit, corrosion, but also some inverter IC used for selecting a ROM or so. E.g. U17.
Or the sockets of the IC's. I have encountered those reasons many times now.
With a logic probe the signals can be measured. Especially the VMA line and U17 or U18.
I'll have to check that out. Reset is fine. Corrosion is no problem. To me it's IC's, Sockets or the Logic probe you mentioned.
Add the clock buffer chip to the list, that sucker fails all the time, u15 i believe. I think it does some gating in VUA-2 circuit as well.
Normally i reconnector and redo all the sockets. Still locked up I then check for about a half megahertz clock signal on both clock pins of U9... i always look there first... and high reset.
don't forget shorts in the switch matrix (or whatever the hell they called it in early bally's) can cause a mpu to lock up. had 2 recently come across my bench and ruled out all the usual suspects, still wouldn't boot. started going through the switch strobes and found 1 shorted. Fixed that and we have a happy 7 flashes.
Quoted from Drewscruis:don't forget shorts in the switch matrix (or whatever the hell they called it in early bally's) can cause a mpu to lock up. had 2 recently come across my bench and ruled out all the usual suspects, still wouldn't boot. started going through the switch strobes and found 1 shorted. Fixed that and we have a happy 7 flashes.
Seriously?? Driver board issues can stop a boot?
I've seen soundboards stop a mpu from booting.. i'm referring to the diodes/caps/resistors in the switch strobe and return side, they can stop an mpu from booting.
Quoted from Drewscruis:I've seen soundboards stop a mpu from booting.. i'm referring to the diodes/caps/resistors in the switch strobe and return side, they can stop an mpu from booting.
That's the 43VDC which needs to be pulsing. If that becomes filtered by a cap the MPU won't boot. And a faulty diode on certain soundboards can do that.
Bought a new MPU... (The Alltek ultimate mpu). instructions told me to test the 5vdc on the solenoid board. Checked out fine at 5.4vdc. Then it says to test the AC reading on the same test point. It's way high. Supposed to be no more than 150mv ac, I'm getting 10.4acv. So I replaced the C23 Cap as per the instructions. No change.
Kind of at a loss.
However... one thing I noticed. Checked Test points based on what Clay Harrells repair guide suggest however the one thing I noticed is that his guide talks about AS2518-18 / AS2518-49 rectifier boards. The one in my machine is an AS 2877-1. If I google that part number it doesn't show my game as being compatible in the list.
These are my voltages off the rectifier board test points.
Test point 1 - 6vdc
Test point 2 - 235vdc
test point 3 - 6.4acv
Test point 4 - 15.8vdc (this is little high...should be 10.5 - 13.3 vdc according to Clay's guide.)
Test point 5 - 44.7vdc
Anyone know anything about this board. Can I even use it? Any suggestions on how to clean up that ac voltage? Is bridge two the issue?
I'm scared to plug in this new alltek ultimate board until I know it's good.
Similar post regarding rectifier boards on Pinside this past week.
As I told him -- beg, borrow or steal an analog meter and measure it again.
If you ever have a bizarre reading on a DMM, double check it with an analog meter.
AS2577-1 -- I am pretty sure that is the entire power assembly including mounting plate, transformer and rectifier board. The AS2518-18 or AS2518-49 would be just the rectifier board.
Other voltages look fine (but voltages listed at TP3 and 4 reversed). The 15.8 voltage is fine. For this one, the upper limit before becoming unsafe would be 20VDC, I wouldn't be concerned unless it hits 18 or so.
So. Long story short. My multi meter was screwed. Bought a new one. My voltages were fine all along. Hooked the new board up and it booted. No solenoid though. Figure the ground mods will fix this cause when I jumpered the tp1 and tp3 together on the solenoid driver board and I now had 5dcv on tp3 now. Coils worked. Only left flipper is out. I suspect a broken wire.
Lamp driver board looks to be littered with transistors bad. Most of the lights are either on solid or off permanently. Closing in on the finish.
Update. Flipper is fixed. Sort of. Was getting no voltage to the left flipper. Wiggled some wires and I had voltage. So I resoldered them. The left flipper works now but it stutters. Like as if you were ranking on the flipper button really fast. Anyone have ideas on how to fix that?
As for the lights. I went through all of them replacing old bulbs etc and most of the lights are back. I probably have about 12 lights either out or not consistently lit but most of them are bad sockets. If I wiggled the bulb they'll work. As far as I can tell there are only two bulbs stuck on. And maybe 5 sockets that no matter what I do they're off. Could be transistor. Could be just a really bad socket. I suspect I've got maybe a half dozen transistors to replace. That's a far cry from probably 20 I was thinking last night.
Appreciate any input you can give on the flipper flutter.
Flipper stuttering might be an open circuit on the hold coil of the flipper solenoid.
With the machine off, open the end of stroke (EOS) switch on the left flipper and measure the resistance on the flipper solenoid lugs that the EOS switch is connected to. Compare it to the right flipper solenoid. Also take a measurement with the multimeter leads swapped around because the diode across the coil might affect the reading one way.
It should measure somewhere between 300-400 ohms depending on your model of flipper solenoid.
Quoted from Quench:Flipper stuttering might be an open circuit on the hold coil of the flipper solenoid.
With the machine off, open the end of stroke (EOS) switch on the left flipper and measure the resistance on the flipper solenoid lugs that the EOS switch is connected to. Compare it to the right flipper solenoid. Also take a measurement with the multimeter leads swapped around because the diode across the coil might affect the reading one way.
It should measure somewhere between 300-400 ohms depending on your model of flipper solenoid.
Thanks for the lead. I'll check it out tonight.
Quoted from Quench:Flipper stuttering might be an open circuit on the hold coil of the flipper solenoid.
With the machine off, open the end of stroke (EOS) switch on the left flipper and measure the resistance on the flipper solenoid lugs that the EOS switch is connected to. Compare it to the right flipper solenoid. Also take a measurement with the multimeter leads swapped around because the diode across the coil might affect the reading one way.
It should measure somewhere between 300-400 ohms depending on your model of flipper solenoid.
Resistance seems low and it's very different from the other flipper. But if it was shorted wouldn't it be locked on?
Quoted from Pauz21:Resistance seems low and it's very different from the other flipper. But if it was shorted wouldn't it be locked on?
With the good flipper and my meter set to 200 ohms I'm getting around 17 when measuring from lead to switch.
The bad one I'm getting maybe 3. Is that a bad coil? Bad diode?
Flipper chatter is almost always a busted wire on the coil. It's one of the little tiny ones that solder to the lugs. A flipper coil has 2 sets of windings. Your hold winding has a break in it, probably where it connects to the lug. If not there, it's internal. Swap out the coil, and it will go away.
Quoted from fireball2:Flipper chatter is almost always a busted wire on the coil. It's one of the little tiny ones that solder to the lugs. A flipper coil has 2 sets of windings. Your hold winding has a break in it, probably where it connects to the lug. If not there, it's internal. Swap out the coil, and it will go away.
Beautiful. Going somewhere tonight where I have access to parts. I'll make a call tonight and pick up tomorrow. Thx.
Quoted from Pauz21:Beautiful. Going somewhere tonight where I have access to parts. I'll make a call tonight and pick up tomorrow. Thx.
While you are in there, you may as get the parts to do both..... Trust me, your game will be loads better.
So I replaced the coil. It's all good. Inspected the old one and the low voltage wire was indeed broken. I replaced a few burnt transistors too.
It's now fully working with a few bugs. Has about 10 bad sockets that work sometimes. And the rollover in the frontier bonus saucer area isn't registering properly. Outside of that. It's another one back from the dead.
Back again. The new flipper coil worked for a week or so. My only issue as reported was a few bad sockets. Then out of the blue the flipper I'd just replaced the coil on stopped working. When I push the plunger in and hold the button it will hold the flipper in the up position. It just won't engage the flipper so it appears the low voltage wire is working but the high voltage isn't. Any ideas.
Check that you have the requisite 35 Volts on the lugs.
Your leaf switch is beat and you components appear worn. I would recommend a flipper rebuild. They really really are easy to do. And you will be SO happy when you are done. Like a new machines. Turn the coils around as well. I did my Bally Xenon, and the plates were beat. You can get around that. Plates still exist, or worse case, you re-use what you have and improvise.
See Vid's guide to rebuilding flippers.
Quoted from Pauz21:Was getting no voltage to the left flipper. Wiggled some wires and I had voltage.
Theres a break some where, keep looking.
May have met my match with Medusa...it worked when I first got it, perfectly. Then it quit ejecting balls. The MPU had corrosion like a mofo. It was wrecked. I put a new Altek MPU in it. I rebuild one MPU connector that looked like a couple of the wires had corrosion but the rest look good. It then would eject a ball and I could play sorta but many of the lights don’t work and the upper left saucer switch triggers the ball eject into plunger...the bulb next to the solenoid expander is not lit...i changed all the fuses shown in pics so unless there is one I don’t know of those should be ok. I have put many LEDs in it but have put the siegcraft lamp driver mods in...what else do you need to know...check these pics out...lamp test is on
I can’t give up but I def need help
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Is the bulb next to the solenoid expander an LED? I think I read somewhere that LEDs should not be used there.
I too had problems with the ball not ejecting on my Medusa. Reseating the J2 connector on my Alltek mpu corrected that problem. Wish I had more to offer but I've only been into this for about a year. (Speakeasy, Lost World and Medusa)
Good luck!
If you had to repin the MPU connector then you probably need to repin them all. At least do the rest of the MPU connectors and J4 on the light driver board.
Here is a HEP Medusa, good inspiration and useful pics
http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album344?page=9
every switched lamp should have 6.3v DC on the common side. Take a voltmeter and measure from ground, (the frame of the cabinet will do) to the common wire. If you do not measure 6.3v DC the blue wire that feeds it is open. If the voltage is good then just take a test wire and ground the tab of any switched lamp and it should light if the bulb is good.
BTW, Bally games from that era do not respond well to LEDs on the switched lamps.
PLEASE start a new thread with the proper title, describing your problem with the lamps. The first part of this thread (2 years old) and the title have absolutely nothing to do with your technical problems.
I will do that going fwd...buuuuut...this super nice and talented fella came over and fixed it for me...igo4rams is his pinside handle...comes highly recommended by me and pricing is very reasonablethank you sooo much igo4rams!
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