As I mentioned above, when I actuate the left coin slot, it tends to get stuck. I didn't notice it until halfway through my reply to Rolf. The machine acts as if I am constantly pressing the start button when this is sticking.
(Topic ID: 235504)
Linked Games
Duotron
Gottlieb, 1974
Topic Gallery
Quoted from Brutilus:...I can watch relay O attempt to actuate, but the kick-out will not fire. ....
Can you test this circuit with an alligator (or EZ-hook) jumper wire?
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/using-schematics-and-8-foot-jumper-wires
Duotron ball return circuit (resized).png
Aarau
Hi brutilus
thanks for post-50. I sum up:
SB2 plunges - good.
LB plunges - acceptable, depends on "in what position the Player-Unit happen to be"
Credits and Coin Slots - acceptable.
Sometimes partial reset of the Score-Drums - we have to look at - can You narrow on "sometimes" ? - see a logic in "sometimes" ? How often is "sometimes" - once per ten tries or 6 to 8 per ten tries ?
Sometimes partial reset of the Score-Drums - do all four Drums partial reset ? When You only have the "5" / "6" / "7" / "8" / "9" on the four drums: Do they completely reset ? (((It is easyer for the pin to reset (lets say) "79580" than "42310" because the motor doing a turn of 120 degrees pulses five times (and the 79580 is resetted) --- the "42310" is stepped to "97860", needs another turn of the motor, needs switches to tell the motor to turn.)))
Have "42310" on the drums - what do You have after a partial reset ? (I hope for 97860)
The Bonus-Unit under the playfield behaves - good.
The R-Relay stays pulling after activation - good.
The H-Relay does not stay pulling after activation - this problem I pick, see text and JPG.
Again, Bonus-Unit behave - good.
The H-Relay: It should pull-in when the SB2 actuates (early in the start-up) - see "my yellow-brown lines" - from my yellow-brown-arrow along the "my blue lines" to the coil on H-Relay. The H-Relay pulls-in and actuates its switches so "along my blue lines" the Self-Hold-Circuit is established - the H-Relay pulls forever (if we do not make a tilt).
The first question is: When we force connection - does the coil pulls-in ? So please toggle-off, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) --- look for the 24VAC-15-Amp-Fuse. See wire-RED soldered-on (?) - see wire-RED-BLK soldered-on. We always want a fuse in our Jumpering - so fuse-side-wire-RED-BLK is the point to use. Take a Jumper-Wire and clip-on at the coil on H-Relay, side wire-MAR-GR is soldered-on. Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire near the fuse, lay the end of the Jumper-Wire on wood, NOT touching metal. Plug-in, toggle-on, hold the Jumper-Wire on its insulation and tip-on the gator-clip (Jumper-Wire) onto fuse-side-wire-RED-BLK - DOES the H-Relay pulls-in ? Greetings Rolf
0Duotron-Work-03 (resized).jpgQuoted from DaMoib:Can you test this circuit with an alligator (or EZ-hook) jumper wire?
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features[quoted image]
I'm getting continuity to the 2nd and 5th switches of Motor 4C, but I am unable to get a clean visual trace of the wire and none of the cables at the switch match the colors on the diagram. They may just be filthy...
Hi Rolf!
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:Sometimes partial reset of the Score-Drums - we have to look at - can You narrow on "sometimes" ? - see a logic in "sometimes" ? How often is "sometimes" - once per ten tries or 6 to 8 per ten tries ?
Sometimes partial reset of the Score-Drums - do all four Drums partial reset ? When You only have the "5" / "6" / "7" / "8" / "9" on the four drums: Do they completely reset ? (((It is easyer for the pin to reset (lets say) "79580" than "42310" because the motor doing a turn of 120 degrees pulses five times (and the 79580 is resetted) --- the "42310" is stepped to "97860", needs another turn of the motor, needs switches to tell the motor to turn.)))
Have "42310" on the drums - what do You have after a partial reset ? (I hope for 97860)
I haven't been able to see a logic in it. Many times you can see the reels twitch, but not move. I know that at least one of the springs isn't holding enough tension and I will be ordering replacement springs tomorrow. (The P1 100's is especially bad for this.)
I will test this more this evening. Maybe I can find a pattern.
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:The H-Relay does not stay pulling after activation - this problem I pick, see text and JPG.
Sounds good.
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:The H-Relay: It should pull-in when the SB2 actuates (early in the start-up) - see "my yellow-brown lines" - from my yellow-brown-arrow along the "my blue lines" to the coil on H-Relay. The H-Relay pulls-in and actuates its switches so "along my blue lines" the Self-Hold-Circuit is established - the H-Relay pulls forever (if we do not make a tilt).
The first question is: When we force connection - does the coil pulls-in ? So please toggle-off, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) --- look for the 24VAC-15-Amp-Fuse. See wire-RED soldered-on (?) - see wire-RED-BLK soldered-on. We always want a fuse in our Jumpering - so fuse-side-wire-RED-BLK is the point to use. Take a Jumper-Wire and clip-on at the coil on H-Relay, side wire-MAR-GR is soldered-on. Take the other end of the Jumper-Wire near the fuse, lay the end of the Jumper-Wire on wood, NOT touching metal. Plug-in, toggle-on, hold the Jumper-Wire on its insulation and tip-on the gator-clip (Jumper-Wire) onto fuse-side-wire-RED-BLK - DOES the H-Relay pulls-in ? Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]
The H relay does pull in during this test.
Hi brutilus
fine - the coil on H-Relay is good and its connection along wire-BLK down to the transformer is also good. See the JPG in post-53 - see my "brown dots" - You have clipped-on the Jumper-Wire on the first dot (at the coil). Toggle-of, unplug the main power cord, take away the Jumper-Wire. Now take the Jumper-Wire and clip-on "at my next brown dot" (on the switch on Tilt-Relay). Lay the other end of the Jumper-Wire near the fuse etc. (do a test).
See how we slowly (changing to the next brown dot) test the wiring in the pin as we take more and more of the original wiring to be part of the circuitry. Greetings Rolf
OK... I set the score to 75980. The 100's and 10's reset correctly. The thousands didn't move. The 10,000's only moved one space.
Now we're back to the under-board stepper continually firing even though it is at its lowest setting.
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:Hi brutilus
fine - the coil on H-Relay is good and its connection along wire-BLK down to the transformer is also good. See the JPG in post-53 - see my "brown dots" - You have clipped-on the Jumper-Wire on the first dot (at the coil). Toggle-of, unplug the main power cord, take away the Jumper-Wire. Now take the Jumper-Wire and clip-on "at my next brown dot" (on the switch on Tilt-Relay). Lay the other end of the Jumper-Wire near the fuse etc. (do a test).
When performing this test, the H relay activates.
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:See how we slowly (changing to the next brown dot) test the wiring in the pin as we take more and more of the original wiring to be part of the circuitry. Greetings Rolf
That does make sense. I'll continue down the line.
I'm shopping for parts to make a set of better & longer test leads. Do you have any suggestions to sources?
Currently, I have the following parts in me Amazon cart:
Alligator Clips: https://smile.amazon.com/Shappy-Pieces-Plastic-Handle-Alligator/dp/B072FJQ7BG/ref=sr_1_16
Grabber hooks: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B076FQGLLD/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1
Wire: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B073RDBW7L/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2
Shrink tubing: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MFA3OFA/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3
Do these look alright for the load?
Hi Brutilus +
please - may other pinsiders also comment the list.
Gator clips: Such I have - dangerous as the tip(s) are not insulated.
Grabber Hooks: I do not have but will shop around to buy me some.
Wire: Probably much too thick --- look in Your pin - wire as thick as these wires in the pin. Buy copper wires of this thickness - plenty good as copper is about a four times better conductor as steel / iron wires as used in Your pin.
Shrink tubes: You need one type - to fit over the wires in Your pin - to fit over the wire You buy.
I suggest: Go to the nearest K-Mart (or such store), ask for gator clips, wire, shrinking tube AND 12Volt car bulbs to make Yo some "SteveFury Test-Light(s)" - two bulbs, one put behind the other --- see https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/reading-gottlieb-schematics#post-2634425 (also see there "better gator clips).
It is late in Switzerland - I go to sleep, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf
Quoted from Brutilus:I'm shopping for parts to make a set of better & longer test leads. Do you have any suggestions to sources?
Currently, I have the following parts in me Amazon cart:
Alligator Clips: amazon.com link »
Grabber hooks: amazon.com link »
Wire: amazon.com link »
Shrink tubing: amazon.com link »
Do these look alright for the load?
hoov had the best suggestion (IMO), and started a great thread with it:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/whats-your-favorite-em-tools
So sleepy... Boys have both been sick again limiting my time for work on the weekends. The oldest caught a nasty cold and the youngest has 4 teeth coming in.
Fresh batch of parts came in from PBR. I replaced all of the springs on the 1000's reel and now all of the score reels move perfectly. I manually set the wheels to 4 on each and they all moved perfectly. The 1000's wheel likes moving so much now that it never stops! It cycles 5 numbers at a time. More research on that tomorrow.
Quoted from Brutilus:So sleepy... Boys have both been sick again limiting my time for work on the weekends. The oldest caught a nasty cold and the youngest has 4 teeth coming in.
Fresh batch of parts came in from PBR. I replaced all of the springs on the 1000's reel and now all of the score reels move perfectly. I manually set the wheels to 4 on each and they all moved perfectly. The 1000's wheel likes moving so much now that it never stops! It cycles 5 numbers at a time. More research on that tomorrow.
Sleep is overrated (I say now that we're empty nesters)...
The 1000's reset switch is most likely out of adjustment... you can test it by shorting around the switch with your new jumper 
Does the reel stop, the player unit advance and the second player reels start resetting? (I'm assuming you were talking about the 1st player 1000's reel not stopping)
Quoted from DaMoib:Sleep is overrated (I say now that we're empty nesters)...
*Glare*
Quoted from DaMoib:The 1000's reset switch is most likely out of adjustment... you can test it by shorting around the switch with your new jumper Does the reel stop, the player unit advance and the second player reels start resetting? (I'm assuming you were talking about the 1st player 1000's reel not stopping)
The first player 1000's reel is indeed what we are talking about. I have not tried adding a second player, yet. I'm pretty sure that when I re-assembled the score reel, I didn't put the lifter arm back in correctly. I'll check that later.
Quoted from Brutilus:*Glare*
OK, got it... (note to self: don't use that line on my kids... one of them is expecting their second in May...) 
Quoted from Brutilus:The first player 1000's reel is indeed what we are talking about. I have not tried adding a second player, yet. I'm pretty sure that when I re-assembled the score reel, I didn't put the lifter arm back in correctly. I'll check that later.
I believe the second player score reels will reset as part of the startup sequence, independent of whether a second player is selected or not.
Hello everybody! I'm back and the house is (relatively) plague free! I caught some of what the boys and my wife had and was down for a few days, but I'm back in fighting shape. (Just in time for allergy season...)
I had some time to read while I was under the weather and that helped with my understanding a bit.
Quoted from DaMoib:I believe the second player score reels will reset as part of the startup sequence, independent of whether a second player is selected or not.
You are correct. I've been reviewing the startup sequence and both sets of score reels will reset at the start of a new game.
The player 2 reels are a mess. They attempt to reset, but seem to get stuck. When actuated manually, they feel sticky and sluggish. They need a tear down and cleaning. When they are set to "0" everything is fine. during the reset.
The Player 1 thousands reel still isn't resetting correctly. Here are the results per number at power on:
0 doesn't move
9 goes to 0
8 doesn't move
3-7 go to 8
1 & 2 go to 7
All movements on this reel see hesitant. I need to take a video and share it on YouTube to better explain what I mean by hesitant.
Here is how the startup sequence proceeds:
1. Tripping the left coin switch or pushing the replay button actuates "S" relay.
2. The motor starts running.
3. "SB2" relay and the total play meter are actuated
4. The player unit relay actuates 30 times
5. The score reels attempt their reset.
6. The control bank is reset when the "U" relay actuates.
7. The motor keeps spinning.
8. I can see the "O" and "H" relays twitch for every 120 degrees the motor turns.
If I remove the ball from the drain hole, the tilt light comes on and the motor stops. I can trigger the hole kicker by connecting a jumper to the GR-RED cable on the coil and touching the other end to the 15A fuse. It also triggers when I connect the jumper to a switch on relay "I" and the 15A fuse. Sometimes it will also fire if I can get just the right connection on Motor 4C. I'll work on that one more tomorrow after I clean player 2's score reels.
Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
Reply
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!
Donate to PinsideGreat to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
