Duotron restoration - Boy do I ever have a lot of questions

(Topic ID: 235504)

Duotron restoration - Boy do I ever have a lot of questions


By Brutilus

15 days ago



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  • Latest reply 2 days ago by rolf_martin_062
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0Far-Out-div-Bonus (resized).jpg
0Far-Out-Zero-Bonus (resized).jpg
SB_path (resized).png
P3E to right bar connector to Motor 1A switch 2 (resized).jpg
Player Unit Switches (resized).jpg
P3E (resized).jpg
P4E inside blade (resized).jpg
P1 10's unit - normally closed switch (resized).jpg
P1 10s unit - Connected to 4 (resized).jpg
Wire bundle (resized).jpg
0Duotron-Work-02 (resized).jpg
Wires from P3E (resized).jpg
Rebuilt Motor 1A (resized).jpg
Light cabinet wire bundle (resized).jpg
0Duotron-Work-01 (resized).jpg
0Duotron-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#1 15 days ago

Hi EM folks! mikala was kind enough to point me in this direction.

Two weeks ago, I started a thread in the "Restorations Documented" section chronicling the restoration and repair of my Duotron . (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/duotron-1974-or-how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-the-relays)

To summarize what is in that thread as of 2/6/2019:
It mostly worked when I purchased it 10 years ago.
I spent several years rehabbing the damage to the case.
As time went on, things started to work less and less well.
About 2 years ago, I put the machine in storage in my parent's basement while we moved. When it went in to storage, it did not work. Player 2's score would not stop resetting.
Now, I am cleaning the machine and learning how to troubleshoot. Pinrepair.com's EM repair guide is open on my tablet constantly while working.
I have recently finished rehabbing the score reels for Player 1. They actually cycle smoothly now!
The anti-cheat switch on the door is pretty mangled. I'm going to order a new one.
I've begun bulb replacement. I've already swapped out 27 of the 95 with LEDs. I'd like to do the whole game after seeing how much of a difference it makes.
Many of the bulb sockets are a bit dodgy. I will be taking Pinrepair.com's advice on how to fix many of them.
Neither inserting a coin nor pushing the start button triggered the "S" relay. It's supposed to lock in via its own switch and a motor 2B switch. Time to check the motor 2B switch.
When tripped manually, the motor cycles one position. At this point, a relay on the motor is supposed to actuate the "SB2" relay and the total play meter. Neither happens. When I manually trip the "SB2" relay, the motor begins running and will not stop. I'm going to check how much voltage is making it to the "SB2" relay coil.
While the motor is running, the first player unit is supposed to reset to zero. I already have it set to zero. It doesn't move. I think I've located the P3 switch stack on motor 1A & 4A. 1A looks good. 4A looks not quite right. the contacts that I have circled never actually touch and are filthy.

I've met some very helpful people over in the "Restorations" area, but still have a ton of EM specific questions. I'll be numbering each question to hopefully make them easier to respond to.

#2 15 days ago

Question 1:

When I test the transformer, I get good voltage in, but the outputs are 5.2V and 21.3V instead of 6V and 25V. How much of a problem is this?

In case a replacement is needed, how could I determine the specs for a replacement, possibly more modern, transformer? Would there be any trouble installing separate 25V and 6V transformers in parallel?

Would a Gottlieb B-10904 match the specs well enough to work? (There's one on ebay for a pretty decent price.)

Cleaned off the leads on the transformer. Now I'm getting 5.8V and 24.8V output. I'll call this fixed.

Also... ouch. Stabbed by exposed wires on those leads.

#3 15 days ago

Question 2:
Motor switch 1A looks awfully funky and possibly damaged? Is it normal for a lifter to look like this?

IMG_20190130_111713 (resized).jpgIMG_20190130_111719 (resized).jpgIMG_20190130_111721 (resized).jpg
Added 12 days ago:

Marking this as answered. That is definitely melted and I will be rebuilding that switch stack.

#4 15 days ago
Quoted from Brutilus:

Question 1:
When I test the transformer, I get good voltage in, but the outputs are 5.2V and 21.3V instead of 6V and 25V. How much of a problem is this?
In case a replacement is needed, how could I determine the specs for a replacement, possibly more modern, transformer? Would there be any trouble installing separate 25V and 6V transformers in parallel?
Would a Gottlieb B-10904 match the specs well enough to work? (There's one on ebay for a pretty decent price.)

What was your input voltage?

#5 15 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

What was your input voltage?

Approximately 115V. The contact points are fairly dirty and oxidized. Tonight, I'll be cleaning them.

#6 14 days ago

Question 3:
Looking at the schematic, it looks to me like all of the relays should be on the 25V line. Every one of them shows 6V on the meter. The only 25V connections that I have been able to find have been to a bump sensor on the floor of the cabinet, a fuse, and motor switch 4C.

Am I reading the diagram that incorrectly or has someone seriously messed up the wiring of this table?

25v line schematic (resized).jpg
#7 14 days ago

Are you measuring the voltage directly on an energized coil? With the power on, measure the voltage across the coin lockout relay on the coin door, assuming it's still there. In general, measure from the black wire on any coil to the indicated point on the transformer.

duotron_tran (resized).jpg
#8 14 days ago

Question 2: I believe you have the motor 1A switch stack in your hand in the photo above. That switch stack has 3 high current switches on it. The switch closest to the motor certainly has seen some heat. To identify each switch and its function, you need to look at the colors of the switch wires and find that switch on the schematic (which I don't have, sorry). There should be three switches on the schematic labelled "MOTOR 1A".

You said the switch closest to the motor never touches, yet the other two do? Those two nylon lifters control the outer two switch closings, if the lifter is shortened due the the meltage, I'd think the outer switches would be affected. With the power off, observe the action of the stack while you press on the inner blade. The partially melted nylon lifter and the contacts can be replaced (put them on your list for your next PBR order), but for now I'd just clean the contacts with a file or flexstone, adjust the switch, verify the switch is working and move on.

#9 14 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Question 2: I believe you have the motor 1A switch stack in your hand in the photo above. That switch stack has 3 high current switches on it. The switch closest to the motor certainly has seen some heat. To identify each switch and its function, you need to look at the colors of the switch wires and find that switch on the schematic (which I don't have, sorry). There should be three switches on the schematic labelled "MOTOR 1A".

This is indeed motor 1A. I've had a hard time observing this switch in action due to its placement. Even seeing the colors on the wires has been a challenge due to the amount of dirt and other stuff in the cabinet. I'll verify the colors later tonight.

After taking this picture, I cleaned all of the contacts with a Flexstone file. I then wiped them down with alcohol where possible.

Side note: Since starting this project, I've gone through half a bottle of Isopropyl alcohol already.

Quoted from DaMoib:

You said the switch closest to the motor never touches, yet the other two do?

This is what I get for running two threads.

The switches that I think you're referring to are motor 4A.

Quoted from DaMoib:

Those two nylon lifters control the outer two switch closings, if the lifter is shortened due the the meltage, I'd think the outer switches would be affected. With the power off, observe the action of the stack while you press on the inner blade. The partially melted nylon lifter and the contacts can be replaced (put them on your list for your next PBR order), but for now I'd just clean the contacts with a file or flexstone, adjust the switch, verify the switch is working and move on.

I think that lifter has got to go. The dirt / whatever was so ground in and the exposure to heat caused it to actually feel metallic.

I want to order complete replacements for motor 1A and motor 4A, but I'm not conversant enough to tell him which part number I need to order from the chart below. I'll call him at lunch today and see if he can walk me through the order.

Motor switches (resized).JPG
#10 12 days ago

Question 4:
Tore down Motor 1 today in preparation for rebuilding Motor 1A. (Motor 1A has a thoroughly mangled / melted lifter and a cracked separator.) Each switch stack was carefully removed from the motor housing and labeled. Some 6-32 nuts are keeping each stack together.
Motor 1 switches separated and labelled (resized).jpg

Naturally, I came across a problem. One of wires had broken away from wherever it was attached. The solder point had snapped off. I desperately need some help on figuring out where this originally went.
Motor 1A Broken Solder (resized).jpg

Rather than dwell on this problem, I finished building a diagram of how Motor 1A was assembled.
Motor 1A Diagram (resized).JPG

I really could use some help identifying where this wire goes.

#11 12 days ago

Hi Brutilus
You write "have the schematics" - do You also have the Manual ? It would be good to have as in the manual is a page like I show from the manual of Magnotron. Greetings Rolf

Magnotron-SCM-Sws (resized).jpg
#12 12 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Brutilus
You write "have the schematics" - do You also have the Manual ? It would be good to have as in the manual is a page like I show from the manual of Magnotron. Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

I do have the manual. Both the original (now basically falling apart) and a replacement that I ordered from Marco's (reprinted with PBR's permission). I'm just not entirely sure what I'm looking at. (Extreme newb)

Can you let me know if I'm reading this right, please? This wire connects to the second switch on motor 1A. That means it triggers "Adds player unit" and would explain why pushing the start button doesn't do anything, right?

If I cross reference with the schematic, that means it's probably actually "slate-white" not a misidentified pseudo green and should go to motor 2C, right?
Schematic - Add player unit section (resized).jpg

#13 12 days ago

Hi Brutilus
some Gottlieb pins (also on some Williams I have seen it) have a text stamped onto the paper schematics --- +/- : "Due to wire shortages beyond our control - colors of wires used in the pin are other than shown in the schematics." This is a catastrophe for us as we see in the schematics (example) wire-GR-BL (green with small stripes of blue woven into) --- but used in the pin is (example) wire-WH-RED (white with small stripes of red woven into).
Good to know is "-" is not the same as "+" --- GR-BL is " green with small stripes of blue woven into" while GR+BL is "green and blue mingled".

Your questions "reading this right": I use the MAGNOTRON information (as I do not have papers for Duotron) Magnotron-motor-1A, second switch is for to activate the Add-Player-Unit-Coil (to step the Player-Unit) - the switch has two wires soldered-on --- (I use Your snippet of schematics) on one side of the switch is wire-green-mingled-with-white soldered-on - on the other side of the switch is wire-slate-mingled-with-white soldered-on.

"Pushing the Start-Button does not do anything" - hmm, do some steps on the Player-Unit is done in the Start- / Reset-Cycle --- (but) pushing the Start-Button (Replay-Button) on my Far Out pin (also an Gottlieb-1974-pin) does activate the V-Replay-Button-Relay and the V-Relay pulling-in activates the S-Start-Relay.

The last sentence in Your post-12 I do not understand.
Is Your post-1 still accurate - see here http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/emTips.html --- some Gottlieb Start procedures --- unfortunately not "Duotron".

(((I didnt really paid attention to Your topic --- I dislike using meters measuring OHMs and Volts and Amperes --- I accept when other people use meters)))

It is getting late here in Switzerland (south of Germany) - we are 6 or 7 or 8 hours ahead of the USA - this is my last post for today, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

#14 12 days ago
Quoted from Brutilus:

Question 4:
...
Naturally, I came across a problem. One of wires had broken away from wherever it was attached. The solder point had snapped off. I desperately need some help on figuring out where this originally went.
....
I really could use some help identifying where this wire goes.

Is this a really short wire (looks like it in the photo)? Have you looked on all the other local switches for where it may have broken off from. Doesn't look like it could be very far away...

#15 12 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Is this a really short wire (looks like it in the photo)? Have you looked on all the other local switches for where it may have broken off from. Doesn't look like it could be very far away...

The wire is 1 1/2 inches in length. It's such a clean break that I haven't been able to locate exactly where it came from.

#16 12 days ago
Quoted from Brutilus:

The wire is 1 1/2 inches in length. It's such a clean break that I haven't been able to locate exactly where it came from.

Can you use a meter (and/or your eyes) to see where the still attached wire goes? Should be the same color on the other endpoint. Either a switch on P3E or the 10's reset for player 1. The broken wire should go to the other location. (If I'm understanding your picture and tables correctly.)

#17 12 days ago

Thanks for the help, Rolf!

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Your questions "reading this right": I use the MAGNOTRON information (as I do not have papers for Duotron) Magnotron-motor-1A, second switch is for to activate the Add-Player-Unit-Coil (to step the Player-Unit) - the switch has two wires soldered-on --- (I use Your snippet of schematics) on one side of the switch is wire-green-mingled-with-white soldered-on - on the other side of the switch is wire-slate-mingled-with-white soldered-on.

Duotron is the 2-player version of Magnotron . Almost everything is identical.

I traced the slate / white back to relay "P". I get good continuity on it. The green / white is definitely the one the is broken off. (It's really difficult to tell the colors underneath the years of dirt and dross.) The schematic says that should go to "P3E", I think. What is "P3E"?

There are notations of Pxx all over the schematics, that I just don't understand.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

"Pushing the Start-Button does not do anything" - hmm, do some steps on the Player-Unit is done in the Start- / Reset-Cycle --- (but) pushing the Start-Button (Replay-Button) on my Far Out pin (also an Gottlieb-1974-pin) does activate the V-Replay-Button-Relay and the V-Relay pulling-in activates the S-Start-Relay.

I'll be sure to check that as soon as I get these switch stack rebuilt.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

The last sentence in Your post-12 I do not understand.

You can ignore that line.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Is Your post-1 still accurate - see here http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/emTips.html --- some Gottlieb Start procedures --- unfortunately not "Duotron".

Thanks for the link! I had not found this site.

#18 12 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Can you use a meter (and/or your eyes) to see where the still attached wire goes? Should be the same color on the other endpoint. Either a switch on P3E or the 10's reset for player 1. The broken wire should go to the other location. (If I'm understanding your picture and tables correctly.)

You are understanding me perfectly. As you were typing this, I was responding to Rolf...

I traced the slate / white back to relay "P". I get good continuity on it. The green / white is definitely the one the is broken off. (It's really difficult to tell the colors underneath the years of dirt and dross.) The schematic says that should go to "P3E", I think. What is "P3E"?

There are notations of Pxx all over the schematics, that I just don't understand.

#19 12 days ago
Quoted from Brutilus:

You are understanding me perfectly. As you were typing this, I was responding to Rolf...

We need someone else to step in here... I don't have any multi-player games. That being said, can you check the other path - to the scoring reel of player one?

#20 12 days ago

OK... Mystery of the "Pxx" notation is solved. It refers to the player unit cam switches. I should've been a bit quicker to catch on to that.

Cam positions (resized).jpg

Doesn't explain the floating wire on motor 1A second switch, yet.

#21 11 days ago

Hi Brutilus
I agree on "it is hard to tell the wire-color" --- I do not know yet if Your schematics has these awful words "Due to wire shortages beyond our control ...". When some short wire does connect two switches beeing mounted close together (like switches in a position on the Score-Motor): The manufacturers sometimes use "wire of any color - maybe a wire with plastic insulation - maybe just a wire (color) they had plenty of".
I look at the second picture in Your post-10 --- yes a (very) short wire broken-off. Sometimes we must do what I show in the JPG - made from the schematics of my Far Out (I do not have schematics to Magnotron / Duotron) - we must count "How many switches are on Motor-Position "1" --- Far Out has (8+5 = ) 13 switches. Then (hard work) looking all over the schematics to find all these 13 switches (see them in my JPG) --- I drew "blue lines" where "a short connecting wire of any color" could be used. You should do the same work (I did) in Your Duotron schematics for all "Switches on motor-position-1" - good enough are "pictures taken with the mobile phone (no need to add colored lines / encircling. We then chase the problem "which of the switches in motor-position-1 may have a short connecting wire of any color. Greetings Rolf

0Far-Out-Work-33 (resized).jpg
#22 11 days ago

Fix the burnt lifter, clean the contacts and solder the missing wire..all good, but taking the rest of the score motor apart increases the chance of introducing new issues.

#23 11 days ago

Hi
how about this - greetings Rolf

0Duotron-Work-01 (resized).jpg
#24 9 days ago

Thanks everyone for your suggestions! Been a busy few days. Decent length post coming either tonight or tomorrow...

#25 9 days ago

First PBR order placed.

#26 7 days ago

Here's the current (pun intended) scoop on the wiring.

Parts have been ordered to completely rebuild Motor 1A. I'd replace just the broken pieces (lifter, contact, & separator) but I get the different elements apart. They appear to have either been glued together or have fused together over the years.

Some other parts and spares were included in the order, mostly minor playfield replacement items. The only other operational component's that I ordered were the front door anti-cheat switch and the cabinet bounce switch as both are pretty mangled.

Trying to trace the wires via continuity testing has met with limited success. Closed switches passing the current along to other wires makes it a dicey business. Tracing the wires by hand is a bear because they have them wound so tightly in the bundles.

rolf_martin_062 : that diagram is very helpful. I'm trying to use that and my own testing to isolate where the wire needs to be connected. I think that I was able to identify 2 of the connections that you have drawn above. They are short wires with brown, plastic insulation on them.

Below you will find my wire tracings so far...

Motor 1A - switch 1 (Reset score units) to Motor 1C - switch 1 (Motor runout)
Other wire color on same blade: Red with white boxes
Other connections with same wire: Relays "U", "O", "W", "S", "A", "H", "E", "R", & "SB2"
Conclusion: That should be the Motor 1A in 14 and Motor 1C in area 16

Motor 1A - switch 3 (Scoring) to Motor 1C - switch 5 (Opens circuits to playboard contracts)
Other wire color on same blade: White
Other connections with same wire: Relay "QB" and Motor 2B - switch 2
Conclusion: That should be the Motor 1A and Motor 1C in area 8

Motor 1A - switch 2 (Adds player unit) to ???
Other wire color on same blade: Slate / white ?
Other connections with same wire: Relay "SB2"
Conclusions: This almost has to be the Motor 1A in area 15

I don't understand why you have two Motor 1C's connected in area 17 of the schematic.

#27 7 days ago
Quoted from Brutilus:

...
I don't understand why you have two Motor 1C's connected in area 17 of the schematic.

Rolf is looking for sources of short jumper wires between switches in the Motor 1 switch stacks, those two switches he indicated in area 17 should have a connection between them according to the schematic.

======

If you can verify that the GR+WH does go to the Player 1 10's reset switch and the P3E switch, then we can assume the schematic wiring colors on that Motor 1A switch are correct. Two different options are available :

1) You can do it visually by looking at the two destination locations. If dirty wires interfere with this, try some Simple Green on a Q-tip to clean a portion of the wire at its destination and dry with a paper towel. Are they the same colors as the Motor 1A switch in question?

AND/OR

2) Continuity with a meter. Since the wire run is isolated by switches at all three end points, there should be no sneak paths to interfere with a continuity measurement. This may involve rotating the scoring reel and player unit to make sure the switches are open, or just assuring that continuity remains independent of scoring reel and player unit position.

#28 7 days ago

Hi Brutilus
I agree with DaMoib. Greetings Rolf

0Duotron-Work-01 (resized).jpg
#29 6 days ago

Motor 1A has been partially rebuilt. It only required one blade to be rebuilt and 2 replacement separators.Rebuilt Motor 1A (resized).jpg

I'm still tracing the mysterious wires coming from P3E in the hope of finding where the mysterious broken wire on Motor 1A came from. I've had to unbind the wrapping around the wire bundle that leads to the light cabinet. Rebinding the cables with modern cable ties.Light cabinet wire bundle (resized).jpg

My back is aching something fierce from hunching over the cabinet for tonight's work. I loosely wrapped a wire tie around the two wires I'm tracing. That should make it a little easier to pick up my work tomorrow.Wires from P3E (resized).jpg

#30 5 days ago

Hi Brutilus
some terms, conditions, ifs --- in post-11 we see MAGNOTRON-Motor-Switch-Chart --- IF on Duotron the switches on motor-1A are the same as on Magnotron, IF the short wire that makes You headaches is on motor-switch-1A-middle-switch AND IF You did follow the other wire soldered-on that switchblade, did follow wire-GR+WH to "Switch-P3E on the Player-Unit" - AND what You should check now: On that blade P3E is soldered-on a wire-GR+WH that runs to "Normally-Closed-Switch on the 10-Points-Score-Drum of Player-1" AND the other blade on that switch (Score-Drum) has soldered-on wire-OR-WH-RED running to switch on the 100-Points-Score-Drum of Player-1" --- many ifs -
see the upper part of the JPG: The "Schematics" and the "Reality in the pin" are electrically the same. I say "The employee doing the soldering made an mistake (Yes he has to solder-on some short wires on the motor-1A) --- he realized "have soldered-on at the wrong place" --- Boo, he did not unsolder the short wire ... Well this is my working hypothesis --- please check: Do You have an connecting wire-GR+WH "P3E" to "Normally-Closed-Switch on the 10-Points-Score-Drum of Player-1" ?

The lower part of the JPG has to do with "I would like to check things You have mentioned in Your post-1. First: Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - manually reset the Control-Bank (dominant on the bottom of the picture https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=744&picno=26189 --- plug-in, toggle-on - question: Did / do the QB-Game-Over-Relay and the ZB-First-Ball-Relay actuate / plunge ? Greetings Rolf

0Duotron-Work-02 (resized).jpg
#31 5 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Brutilus
some terms, conditions, ifs --- in post-11 we see MAGNOTRON-Motor-Switch-Chart --- IF on Duotron the switches on motor-1A are the same as on Magnotron, IF the short wire that makes You headaches is on motor-switch-1A-middle-switch AND IF You did follow the other wire soldered-on that switchblade, did follow wire-GR+WH to "Switch-P3E on the Player-Unit" - AND what You should check now: On that blade P3E is soldered-on a wire-GR+WH that runs to "Normally-Closed-Switch on the 10-Points-Score-Drum of Player-1" AND the other blade on that switch (Score-Drum) has soldered-on wire-OR-WH-RED running to switch on the 100-Points-Score-Drum of Player-1" --- many ifs -
see the upper part of the JPG: The "Schematics" and the "Reality in the pin" are electrically the same. I say "The employee doing the soldering made an mistake (Yes he has to solder-on some short wires on the motor-1A) --- he realized "have soldered-on at the wrong place" --- Boo, he did not unsolder the short wire ... Well this is my working hypothesis --- please check: Do You have an connecting wire-GR+WH "P3E" to "Normally-Closed-Switch on the 10-Points-Score-Drum of Player-1" ?
The lower part of the JPG has to do with "I would like to check things You have mentioned in Your post-1. First: Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - manually reset the Control-Bank (dominant on the bottom of the picture https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=744&picno=26189 --- plug-in, toggle-on - question: Did / do the QB-Game-Over-Relay and the ZB-First-Ball-Relay actuate / plunge ? Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Rolf, agree... if a single GR+WH wire runs to the backbox and is daisy-chained between the P3E and P1 10's reset, there is no explanation for the additional wire on the motor switch. Yes, employee assembly error is a possible explanation, might a test or debugging lead be another? The fact that the short wire is the same GR+WH color implies it was a factory installed wire...

I hate mysteries....

#32 5 days ago

@rolf_martin_062 & @damoib

OK... I had to carefully remove the wire bundle wrapping down the entire center of the cabinet, but I finished the trace. (I carefully wrapped each intersection made with the wire wrap with brand new wire ties as I went.) It was the only way to be sure I was tracing the correct wire as the alligator clip kept bridging connections and falling off.
Wire bundle (resized).jpg

P3E's inside blade has a cable that runs directly to Motor 1A switch 2 inside blade. P3E's inside blade is also connected to P4E's inside blade. P4E inside blade (resized).jpg

I did a continuity test off that connector to the player 1 10's unit and got tone on two places) a normally closed switch and 2) connector 4 on the printed circuit board.
P1 10's unit - normally closed switch (resized).jpg
P1 10s unit - Connected to 4 (resized).jpg

I'll confirm which one is the direct connection tomorrow. Everything is bundled too tightly to do a conclusive visual trace and my back is killing me from being bent over into the cabinet.

#33 4 days ago
Quoted from Brutilus:

@rolf_martin_062 & @damoib
... I had to carefully remove the wire bundle wrapping down the entire center of the cabinet, but I finished the trace. (I carefully wrapped each intersection made with the wire wrap with brand new wire ties as I went.) It was the only way to be sure I was tracing the correct wire as the alligator clip kept bridging connections and falling off....

Brutilus - thanks for all your hard work!

One quick tip... make some really long test leads for your meter, with EZ hooks on the ends. They're much easier to use, they stay attached and there's no shorting to other terminals in switch stacks.

I assume the wire you were tracing was much cleaner in the places it was buried in the wiring harness? Was it, in fact, a GR+WH wire (green and white mottled, 50/50)?

In looking at the pics, it looks like two GR+WH wires are on the P3E switch and a YEL+GR on the other terminal. The other GR+WH wire most likely continues on to the P1 score reset switch and you can see an OR+WH+RED leaving the switch. All are consistent with the schematic. It does look like these wires have been worked on (the solder blob on the score reset switch).

Let's see if Rolf differs with his interpretation of the pictures...

#34 4 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Brutilus - thanks for all your hard work!
One quick tip... make some really long test leads for your meter, with EZ hooks on the ends. They're much easier to use, they stay attached and there's no shorting to other terminals in switch stacks.

That's an idea I hadn't considered.

Quoted from DaMoib:

I assume the wire you were tracing was much cleaner in the places it was buried in the wiring harness? Was it, in fact, a GR+WH wire (green and white mottled, 50/50)?
In looking at the pics, it looks like two GR+WH wires are on the P3E switch and a YEL+GR on the other terminal.

It sure does look YEL/GR doesn't it...

It's not. It's actually WH+GR. Once I got further down into the wire bundle, the nasty yellowing wasn't present. It seems to be another symptom of the smoke exposure.

Quoted from DaMoib:

The other GR+WH wire most likely continues on to the P1 score reset switch and you can see an OR+WH+RED leaving the switch. All are consistent with the schematic. It does look like these wires have been worked on (the solder blob on the score reset switch).
Let's see if Rolf differs with his interpretation of the pictures...

I'll clarify with pictures where the other wires go in a few minutes.

#35 4 days ago
Quoted from Brutilus:

It sure does look YEL/GR doesn't it...
It's not. It's actually WH+GR. Once I got further down into the wire bundle, the nasty yellowing wasn't present. It seems to be another symptom of the smoke exposure.

I'll clarify with pictures where the other wires go in a few minutes.

I'm referring to these wires... I believe they are consistent with the schematic

P3E (resized).jpg
#36 4 days ago

damoib

Hopefully this clears it up for you:
Player Unit Switches (resized).jpg

The one that looks YEL+GR Is actually WH+GR. That's part of why I had trouble tracing it. Here's a picture of where it goes into the bar connector:
P3E to right bar connector to Motor 1A switch 2 (resized).jpg

The white is very bright indeed where the wire was in the center of the main bundle.

#37 4 days ago

Hi Brutilus and DaMoib
look on the upper part of the JPG in post-30 - see the drawn closed switch "P4E", wire YEL+GR running to switch "P3E" (?). In post-32, just below the first picture: "P3E's inside blade has a cable that runs directly to Motor 1A switch 2 inside blade. P3E's inside blade is also connected to P4E's inside blade." I hope this is "faulty looking or faulty writing of Brutilus" - I would like to have "P3E's other blade (outside blade) has a wire connected to a blade on P4E".

We have "kind of run into theoretical discussion" - I would like to put aside / away the ominous short wire on motor-1A --- trying to get some progress - I suggested in the end of post-30:
The lower part of the JPG (in post-30) has to do with "I would like to check things You have mentioned in Your post-1. First: Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - manually reset the Control-Bank (dominant on the bottom of the picture https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=744&picno=26189 --- plug-in, toggle-on - question: Did / do the QB-Game-Over-Relay and the ZB-First-Ball-Relay actuate / plunge ? Greetings Rolf

#38 4 days ago

Hi brutilus if you think there is a break in one of the wires or more make up a couple of long leads with clips on both sides and test for shorts in the wires that way.

#39 4 days ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

The lower part of the JPG (in post-30) has to do with "I would like to check things You have mentioned in Your post-1. First: Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - manually reset the Control-Bank (dominant on the bottom of the picture https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=744&picno=26189 --- plug-in, toggle-on - question: Did / do the QB-Game-Over-Relay and the ZB-First-Ball-Relay actuate / plunge ? Greetings Rolf

Machine powered off
Unplugged machine
Control bank reset manually
Plugged machine back in
Toggled power back on.
Relays QB and ZB immediately actuated.

What next?

#40 3 days ago

Hi Brutilus
see here on Surf Champ https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2459&picno=46684&zoom=1 on the bottom of the pic "Adjustment plugs" - look in Your pin for "First Coin Chute Adjustment" - have the adjustment on "ONE Coin - ONE Play".
See on the bottom of the JPG in post-30 - with this adjustment: Throwing-in a coin must make the S-Start-Relay pull-in, this pulling-in of the S-Relay should make the motor to do a turn of at least 120 degrees - at least for a turn of 120 degrees the S-Start-Relay should be steady pulling. See in the JPG - "encircled brown / orange": "Switch on ZB-First-Ball-Relay" is other than shown in the JPG --- the "SB2-Relay should plunge / actuate --- What happens in Your pin when You throw-in a coin ?

When throwing-in a coin does not work - wear rubber gloves (Safety Reasons) - MANUALLY activate the S-Start-Relay --- what happens ? Greetings Rolf

#41 3 days ago

Already had the "First coin chute adjustment" set to "1 coin 1 play". Dropping a coin in or manually triggering coin chute switch does nothing.

Manually triggering the "S" relay does the following:
1) Starts the motor spinning. It doesn't stop.
2) The under playfield stepper continually counts down even though it is at it's minimum setting.
3) "Total play meter" increments.

What I can see that doesn't happen:
1)The replay unit does not subtract a credit.
2) The "Tilt" light remains on. (The tilt light turns off is the "First coin chute adjustment" is set to "1 coin 2 plays")
3) Player 1 score does not reset.
4) Ball kicker does not activate.

#42 2 days ago

The S relay, motor (1A, 2C) and a switch in the ZB relay should trigger SB2... is SB2 activated? Sounds like that ZB switch isn't closed if the play meter is incrementing. Is ZB on as well?
SB_path (resized).png

#43 2 days ago

Hi Brutilus
I look at DaMoib s snippet of schematics - Yes, the SB2-Relay in the Control-Bank should plunge (correct action) -or then the PB2-Relay in the Control-Bank does plunge (in the state / situation we are in: This is faulty reaction, but at least some reaction telling us "current flows, flows" to the threebladed switch named "ZB" and current flows further and reaches Coil on PB-Relay. In Your post-41 You do not write about the PB-Relay - question: Did the PB-Relay plunge / actuate ?

To Your post-41 -
The Replay-Unit does not subtract a credit: This is correct as You manually do (by manually activating S-Relay) simulate "A new game shall be started by throwing-in a COIN worth a play".
The Ball Kicker does not activate - I accept this because "Kicking the Ball over to the Shooter Alley" is very late in the Start- / Reset-Procedure and we are on the beginning of the Start- / Reset-Procedure.
Player-1 Score does not reset - I accept because the resetting the Score-Drums is done "current flows through some switches" - ONE of these switches is a switch on SB2-Relay --- and when the SB2-Relay has not plunged: Current can not flow to reset the Player-1-Score-Drums.
The Tilt-Light stays on - but changing the Coin-Chute adjustment makes the Tilt-Light to go off. I accept the "stays on" but the "adjusting makes it go off" gives me headaches - please have the adjustment "One Coin - One Play".
The endlessly turning of the Score-Motor I can accept.
The "under playfield stepper continually counts down": This fault I would like to investigate in. I guess it is the Bonus-Unit - lets find out.

What You describe / You did in post-39 is good - do it again. THEN immediately afterwards (wear rubber gloves for insulation, Safety Reasons): Manually activate the R-Relay (most likely on the bottom bord in the cabinet) --- the R-Relay must then stay pulling - does Your R-Relay stays pulling after You manually activated it ? THEN immediately afterwards (): Manually activate the H-Relay (most likely on the bottom bord in the cabinet) --- the H-Relay must then stay pulling - does Your H-Relay stays pulling after You manually activated it ?
Now the Tilt-Light in the Backbox should no longer light - You should have lights on the playfield lit --- how about in Your pin ? THEN immediately afterwards (): Manually step on this " under playfield stepper" - do You change lights here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=744&picno=18445 - Bonus-Lights change as You manually step ?
Step about 7 / 8 steps --- THEN activate the S-Relay - question: Does the pin on its own step-down this Bonus-Ladder ? (and then comes the faulty endlessly stepping down) Greetings Rolf

#44 2 days ago

Hi Brutilus
I found two pictures of my "Far Out Bonus Unit mounted on the playfield". We see "marked red" the step-up coil - not good to see is the step-down coil - its moving plunger I warked with "green arrows". Toggle-off Your pin, unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - manuall do step up and step down - watch the switches as shown in the other JPG - see stepping from Zero to one bonus actuate the switches - as well as stapping from one bonus to zero bonus. Question: Does in Your pin a rod mounted on the gear actuates some switches (stepping zero to one / one to zero) --- all good means opening / closing ? contactpoints clean ? wires soldered on ? Greetings Rolf

0Far-Out-Zero-Bonus (resized).jpg0Far-Out-div-Bonus (resized).jpg
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