(Topic ID: 242158)

DumbAss test and reproduction PCBs


By DumbAss

1 year ago



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  • 355 posts
  • 90 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 26 minutes ago by Crash
  • Topic is favorited by 146 Pinsiders

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    There are 355 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 8.
    #201 3 months ago
    Quoted from Stretch7:

    I like this!!!...Can this be purchased? Diagnostic tools is money well spent.

    Sorry. Not yet. Still in development. Keep following along. My next board fabrication order will probably include these boards for portable diagnostics.

    And I agree that diagnostic tools is time and money well spent! If you cannot determine the cause of failure you cannot succeed.

    #202 3 months ago

    Regarding the “two module solution” for the WPC power/driver board solenoid connections, it would be nice if the two modules “stay together” when the tech removes them. It would be a bit frustrating to have to pull “layers” of connectors off.

    Nitpicking...
    The adapter at J114 is picking up either the 5 or 12V to power the solenoid LEDs (I assume). Ethernet cable is nice and a bit overkill since those voltages can be picked up by clipping to a power/driver board test point.

    An adapter there also requires removing the games J114 connector, plug in the adapter, pug J114 into the adapter and then reverse to uninstall. I think I’d prefer a simple one pin connector to either 5 or 12V TP. FWIW.

    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

    #203 3 months ago

    Anyone else find it ironic that DumbAss is clearly one of the smartest people on Pinside? I'm probably not the first person to post that...

    #204 3 months ago

    I love that Williams WPC external power board for 12 volt accessories. My buddy Welby Bergum usually has me wire up several led light strips on his machines so that board would be very handy for us. He's got about 100 machines in his collection (and growing daily, just got a Game Show, DE Hook, and Theater of Magic). We could buy the blank boards if they come with a shopping list for Mouser or digikey (we have accounts with them) and I could assemble them.

    #205 3 months ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    orry. Not yet. Still in development

    ok I will be following

    #206 3 months ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    Regarding the “two module solution” for the WPC power/driver board solenoid connections, it would be nice if the two modules “stay together” when the tech removes them. It would be a bit frustrating to have to pull “layers” of connectors off.

    This is indeed a problem. I knew this would be the case but couldn't think of a solution at the time of laying out the connectors. The issue with these connectors is that it is a very tight fit in the are of the board headers and there's not a lot of room for large boards. That's the X and Y axis. When you factor in the Z axis (the TIP102 and TIP36Cs) it adds another dimension (literally) of difficulty. I have since thought of a solution and will need to re-work the boards and have new ones made. This will add time but that's the cost of development. It's part of the reason why I created this thread so that people can see that development is not quick and easy and a reason why people just don't bother with this kind of stuff.

    All feedback welcome. The more detail oriented the better. 80% of development is done in 20% of the time. The remaining 20% of development (the polish) often takes 80% of the time.

    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    The adapter at J114 is picking up either the 5 or 12V to power the solenoid LEDs (I assume). Ethernet cable is nice and a bit overkill since those voltages can be picked up by clipping to a power/driver board test point.
    An adapter there also requires removing the games J114 connector, plug in the adapter, pug J114 into the adapter and then reverse to uninstall. I think I’d prefer a simple one pin connector to either 5 or 12V TP.

    True and valid points. The power connector actually is a tap for +5V and GND. The diagnostic panel needs the GND reference for the switch side of diagnostics as well as for the state indicator LEDs. I can see two possibilities for accommodating your suggestion. The solution can involve both methods.

    1) Provide a 0.100" connector for power - +5V and GND. This will require crimping a connector with the appropriate length of wires.

    2) Provide turret test points for alligator clip connections for +5V and GND.

    #207 3 months ago
    Quoted from KenLayton:

    I love that Williams WPC external power board for 12 volt accessories. My buddy Welby Bergum usually has me wire up several led light strips on his machines so that board would be very handy for us. He's got about 100 machines in his collection (and growing daily, just got a Game Show, DE Hook, and Theater of Magic). We could buy the blank boards if they come with a shopping list for Mouser or digikey (we have accounts with them) and I could assemble them.

    Say "Hi" to Welby for me. Haven't seen him since he stopped contributing to the Northwest Pinball and Arcade Show.

    I tested these with a hard drive power brick last night and they provide the correct voltage. I want to test these in a machine to make sure. Then I need to discuss with my friend what he wants to do. These were made for him and I don't want to infringe on his turf. We'll be meeting up in the near future. Hopefully I'll have it tested before then but otherwise we could possibly test in one of his machines.

    As a reminder I do provide fully assembled (complete) boards but there is lead time as I don't want to spend time keeping stock available when I could spend time working on the next project. I will stop and build boards if there is a request for one. For these boards I will need to update my spreadsheets with BOM information and then transfer the BOM information into a table in a document. This BOM is small enough I could spend some time trying to figure out Digikey or Mouser BOM lists.

    #208 3 months ago
    Quoted from brainmegaphone:

    Anyone else find it ironic that DumbAss is clearly one of the smartest people on Pinside? I'm probably not the first person to post that...

    Agree.
    Just put one of his MPU boards in my Whitewater and it is running like a champ.
    Love the NVRam and the fact that the ribbon cable plugs have boxes around the plug ins so you can’t put them on poorly and miss some pins.

    #209 3 months ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    I can see two possibilities for accommodating your suggestion. The solution can involve both methods.

    1) Provide a 0.100" connector for power - +5V and GND. This will require crimping a connector with the appropriate length of wires.

    2) Provide turret test points for alligator clip connections for +5V and GND.

    I just thought of another option...

    3) provide a .156 4 pin header to any of J116/J117/J118. All three of these headers have 5/12/GND available. It isn't necessary to connect all of those during diagnostic testing.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #210 3 months ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    Say "Hi" to Welby for me. Haven't seen him since he stopped contributing to the Northwest Pinball and Arcade Show.
    I tested these with a hard drive power brick last night and they provide the correct voltage. I want to test these in a machine to make sure. Then I need to discuss with my friend what he wants to do. These were made for him and I don't want to infringe on his turf. We'll be meeting up in the near future. Hopefully I'll have it tested before then but otherwise we could possibly test in one of his machines.
    As a reminder I do provide fully assembled (complete) boards but there is lead time as I don't want to spend time keeping stock available when I could spend time working on the next project. I will stop and build boards if there is a request for one. For these boards I will need to update my spreadsheets with BOM information and then transfer the BOM information into a table in a document. This BOM is small enough I could spend some time trying to figure out Digikey or Mouser BOM lists.

    If these WPC external power accessory boards are available, Welby said he'd want ten of them. We've got a ton of WPC machines we could use them in. We make our own led light strip mods and use the original WPC power connectors and our own "Y" cables to connect them to the WPC power driver boards.

    #211 3 months ago
    Quoted from brainmegaphone:

    Has anyone taken the time to put together a mouser or digikey list that orders 70-80% of the items to make it easier?

    I have and will share it. I've built "projects" on mouser for the MPU, SND and PWR boards. I've built all 3 from these projects. There are some components that you have to get from elsewhere. I used taydaelectronics.com and utsource.com for the items mouser didn't have.

    #212 3 months ago

    Suggestion on the WPC External Power accessory board: a lot of mods/accessories out there use the Stern SAM/WhiteStar 3 pin Molex (Gnd/5V/12V). A couple of those on your WPC board would be helpful for mod creators. Pic of a sample Power splitter for Stern is attached:
    pbl-600-0060-00 (resized).jpg

    #213 3 months ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    I need to set up a store.

    Yes, you do!

    #214 3 months ago

    Just picked up a Transporter with acid damage on the MPU. I can't remember if I read that you have a replacement 11B board or not. If you do, PM me for purchasing details.
    Mike

    #215 3 months ago
    Quoted from packie1:

    Just picked up a Transporter with acid damage on the MPU. I can't remember if I read that you have a replacement 11B board or not. If you do, PM me for purchasing details.
    Mike

    PM him directly

    #216 84 days ago
    Quoted from Walamab:

    I can provide a single data point for the SND and MPU boards from mouser.com. The majority of the parts for my both boards came from mouser.com. The bill for materials was $86.58 + $7.99 shipping.
    There were a few things (older chips) that had to be purchased from other vendors. These totaled around $50 +/- including shipping.
    $55 for SND board + $94.57 mouser + $50 other = $199.57. If you can find one, a WPC89 sound board goes for ~$300 and Pinsound+ is $350-$370.

    I think I'm in the market for a sound board on my TAF. Do you have the BOM handy?

    10
    #217 83 days ago

    Two weeks since the last update. Sorry. I did mention I'm not fast. Boards (hardware) is nothing like software. Software is good for rapid turnaround. The edit, compile, link and test cycle is quick. The schematic, layout, connections, fabrication and test cycle is not so quick.

    Please remember that this thread is also about the journey. I will attempt to document the successes as well as the failures to provide an idea of what's involved in developing these things. It's not always straight to solution that you might think. This reminds me of my days past in the software debugger. People only saw the final determined cause of failure without seeing all the incorrect paths that had been taken before arriving at the correct path. It was often 5+ paths of failure before the 1 path of success.

    So after the initial attempt for portable testing (with the coupled but not fastened together) I had a thought of a way to couple the two boards so they could be removed as a single board rather than two separate boards. This is what I came up. We'll call this the "double" system.

    boards_081.jpg

    As I was fond of telling people in my old job ... creativity does not happen on demand. Sure enough after a few days or so I found another (I think much better) solution. We'll call this the "single" system.

    boards_082.jpg

    I finally got those boards in. Last night I populated them and today I went to test them. I decided to use System 11 as the test bed this time instead of WPC but the principle is the same.

    The power tap for System 11 is a little more necessary than the power tap for WPC.

    boards_083.jpg

    The solenoid drive. In this case it's solenoids 9-16. The double system actually doesn't work here. It sits too far below the connector and the interconnect connector interferes with it. The single system works fine so that's another point in favor of the single system.

    boards_084.jpg

    The special solenoid drive and trigger. The trigger is the double system - just for comparison.

    boards_085.jpg

    Closing the speaker panel to see how much space there is. Looks like there's JUST enough space with these prototype single boards.

    boards_086.jpg

    And this is how it will work with the speaker panel in place so that you can see the display as you're running the tests.

    boards_087.jpg

    And finally this is the system working. The diagnostic board is the old board that I made over a year ago. I have the newer diagnostic "panel" waiting for fabrication.

    boards_088.jpg

    So I think this system works and will work in WPC. I'm going to test it in WPC as soon as I can just to be sure but I see no obvious reason why it won't work. After that it's on to fabrication.

    I have individual boards for each of the connectors that need a connection for diagnostics for solenoids, switches and lamps. It's a LOT of boards but the fact that each connector has a different key means that there needs to be a different board for each connector (for the most part). I will color code the boards based on the base color of the wires that connect to the connector. For example

    - switch columns are GRN-XXX so the board will be green.
    - switch rows are WHT-XXX so the board will be white.
    - lamp columns are YEL-XXX so the board will be yellow.
    - lamp rows are RED-XXX so the board be RED.

    I have a limited choice of colors so it sometimes won't match but I will try to make a reasonable choice and also take into account overlap (solenoid boards will be RED due to overlap with lamp rows on System 11, special purpose boards will be blue and power boards will be black).

    #218 83 days ago

    Looking good

    #219 77 days ago
    Quoted from sparkup:

    Can you do blue for a funhouse?

    boards_089.jpg

    Digital images typically don't do blue justice. It's often over-exposed and this phone camera doesn't really allow me to control any of the usual parameters available on a DSLR.

    The board shown is the initial slave display board. I built it with SIP sockets to allow me to swap LED blocks in for testing purposes. An actual display slave board will look different (the digit blocks and the connectors are not present in a board used in a machine).

    #220 76 days ago

    Looks very good!
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #221 74 days ago

    Some boards came in the other day (as well as those blue blocks above). I haven't done anything with them other than take a picture of them and pull the components needed. I have requests that need work work and those are higher priority. I will get to these ... eventually.

    This is the WPC set. I have also the System 11 set but I haven't looked at those at all.

    boards_090.jpg
    #222 74 days ago

    Really nice....
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    1 week later
    #223 66 days ago

    Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there any chance of a Data East Version 3 CPU board in the future? I'm not aware of anyone that makes a reproduction board. The particularly good thing about these is they cover a solid 7 years of games, since these boards are factory backward compatible with Version 2 and Version 1 games. So for example, your 1994 WWF Royal Rumble Version 3 board will also work in a 1990 Phantom of the Opera or a 1987 Laser War. That means you only have to worry about making a single type of board.

    From Clay's Data East/Sega repair guide:

    All DataEast/Sega CPU boards are downward compatible (so Version 3 could be used in a Version 1 or Version 2 game). However, it is not possible to use a CPU Version 2 board in a Version 3 game, since the reflexive circuitry used in Revision 3 does not exist in a Version 2 CPU board. Also, to modify a Revision 3 CPU board to work in Laser War (Revision 1), some modifications to the board must be performed. Check out DataEast service bulletin number 6 for this modification.

    From PinWiki:

    Version 1 and 2 Data East CPU boards are reflexive. Simply stated, reflexive CPU boards are boards where the 6 switched coil drive transistors were enabled by a switched coil switch input. These coils were typically pop bumpers and slingshots. Each assembly had its own switch, which was not part of the switch matrix, and was responsible for enabling its associated coil when closed. This implementation is similar to Williams System 11 Special Solenoid, however, unlike System 11 hardware, the MPU has no control over the switched solenoids (solenoids 17-22). Note that with the reflexive boards, the switched solenoids were limited to the slingshots and pop bumpers.

    Version 3 boards are non-reflexive. Non-reflexive boards use 6 special coil drive transistors, however, the switches responsible for enabling these coils are part of the switch matrix. Also, the addition of a 7407 chip at 11C enables the MPU to control the switched solenoids.

    Version 3, non-reflexive boards are backwards compatible, and can be used in a game which would typically use a version 2 board. Conversely, version 2 reflexive boards are not forward compatible in games which use a version 3 board. Note that with the non-reflexive boards, the switched solenoids were not limited to just the slingshots and pop bumpers.

    #224 65 days ago
    Quoted from Crash:

    Sorry if this has been asked before, but is there any chance of a Data East Version 3 CPU board in the future? I'm not aware of anyone that makes a reproduction board.

    I don't believe it's been in this thread. There was a second thread started the other day asking about this with the exit of Rottendog. For those interested in purchasing one immediately apparently Big Daddy bought the remaining Rottendog inventory and has them listed in stock on their website.

    I hadn't given the Data East CPU board much thought. I know that Williams System 9 boards are also about to get more difficult to find as I don't believe anything other than the Rottendog MPU9211 serves this market. The Rottendog MPU004 serves the Data East CPU market and the board overlaps with Williams System 11C.

    The Data East CPU board was the first big board that I cut my teeth learning repair on. I had damaged about 1/4 of the ICs on a friend's board and was more or less forced to learn how to repair it. It took me months of research and learning. In that sense I am familiar with the board and its layout. The prospect of reproducing this board is not so daunting to me.

    I will need to pull a spare board that I picked up and repaired from eBay (about two years ago) and make an assessment. I believe the board I have is revision 03. I would like to understand the differences in the revisions. This pertains to differences between Data East CPU revisions and differences between Data East and Williams CPU boards as I will probably use the basic Williams schematic that I have already captured and work in the Data East differences. I don't know what path will be chosen until an assessment is made. When it comes to opening up big boards for modification or re-work I'd like to have my ducks in a row because these big boards aren't cheap to make (time and cost).

    If a decision to proceed is made the board will likely not be available until the new year. There is development and testing time and I already have a bunch of other things going on (issues to investigate - your reported issue - and boards that are currently in the works that need verification).

    A demand check or interest gauge (people posting interest) would improve confidence that time invested would be worth it and raise priority for any potential reproduction (actually of any proposed board not just the Data East CPU).

    #225 64 days ago

    Great work. Any chance a WPC AV Board is in the works?

    Chris

    #226 64 days ago

    Thank you!

    Quoted from SilverUnicorn:

    Any chance a WPC AV Board is in the works?

    I started that board this year in early January when I was visiting family overseas. It's remained about 90% complete. The improvements on this board are to shift the ASIC to a daughter board so you don't have to wreck the board with hot air rework if you want to replace the ASIC as well as a 68-pin PLCC socket for the DSP. To make space for the ASIC connectors I removed the NBA Fast Break linking (really the debugging features of the board) to a separate daughter board with connectors.

    I understand that some Rottendog WAV095-1 stock remains available. I see it in stock at K's and Big Daddy.

    I do want to do this board for my own self satisfaction and can raise priority if there is demand.

    #227 64 days ago

    I just ordered & received a WPC89 CPU board from Dumbass, swapped over chips, installed & it fired up & fixed my issues! Very happy, tx D!!!

    #228 64 days ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    Thank you!

    I started that board this year in early January when I was visiting family overseas. It's remained about 90% complete. The improvements on this board are to shift the ASIC to a daughter board so you don't have to wreck the board with hot air rework if you want to replace the ASIC as well as a 68-pin PLCC socket for the DSP. To make space for the ASIC connectors I removed the NBA Fast Break linking (really the debugging features of the board) to a separate daughter board with connectors.
    I understand that some Rottendog WAV095-1 stock remains available. I see it in stock at K's and Big Daddy.
    I do want to do this board for my own self satisfaction and can raise priority if there is demand.

    I would certainly be interested. I have not had very good luck with Rottendog boards in my games.

    Chris

    #229 63 days ago

    Do we have a new display board for early System 11? I need all new displays in an F-14.

    #230 63 days ago
    Quoted from xeneize:

    Do we have a new display board for early System 11? I need all new displays in an F-14.

    I actually did have one of these made but never posted it here. The board is a unified (single) board rather than the master/slave (double) board system. I needed one for a Big Guns project I picked up without a display. I did a test fit in the speaker panel and it seemed to fit fine. The board works on the bench. The connector positioning is not identical to the original display board but it is compatible.

    Note that this board is not the same board as the one used in Millionaire and early production F-14. I have a small number of this board (not the Millionaire board) available as of writing.

    As a reminder I also have the full 16 block upper/lower alphanumeric display for most System 11B games (including Taxi and Police Force).

    LED block colors available are: orange (amber), red, green, blue and white or any combination that you want. If you really want to be able to change colors then it is possible to install SIP sockets and change the LED blocks to your desired scheme. Amber and red are included in the base price. Green blocks are an additional $10. Blue or white blocks are an additional $20.

    The quad display (DBU-PNL-QUD) is:

    - Bare is $100 (includes the LED blocks as they are not carried by the big box electronic merchants).
    - Complete is $160.
    - Shipping is $15. It just fits in a medium size box.

    Does NOT include:

    - Power LED indicator unless requested. This is just light interference for mostly no useful purpose.
    - Any light blocking foam. I have a lead to follow on this but I just haven't had the time to work through it.
    - Mounting spacers. I have a limited supply of these. I encourage reusing your old ones. New ones can also be purchased from Pinball Life.

    Build and test time would be about two days. Board shown below is white (the yellow segments is the giveaway that it is white).

    boards_091.jpg
    #231 63 days ago

    Last night I spent a little bit of time looking at the Data East CPU board schematic to build a plan for the board. It's obviously 90%+ identical to the Williams System 11 CPU board but there are differences. I have ideas for an approach but want to solicit opinion because I can try to think of reasons one way or the other but the truth is that the more people who have thoughts and inputs the better the solution will be. I don't believe in "I alone can build it" but I do believe in "I alone will build it and be responsible for it".

    I intend to use the System 11 schematic capture that I have due to the identical 90%+ electrical connections. There are few things that fall out from this.

    1) Do I somehow try to make a "new" universal board that supports both Williams and Data East circuitry in a single board? This is the Rottendog approach for MPU004. It has pros and cons. One pro is a single board to support everything so no need to maintain separate board inventory or potentially component inventory. One con is that the EPROM size jumpers and address line connections are different between the Data East schematic and the Williams schematic. Another con is it will require configuration settings meaning that the user may be required to change settings and any time a user is involved there is potential for error. I know that MPU004 has DIP settings for the switch solenoids and this is obviously a problem because it's documented on the PinWiki page (https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Data_East/Sega#Special_solenoid_problems_with_RottenDog_MPU_board).

    2) Do I make a separate Data East only board that supports the Data East jumpers (J1-J7) and the Data East special solenoid configuration? This minimizes confusion to the end user but means I have a dedicated board with separate inventory.

    3) As a follow on from the differences in the special solenoid configuration it might be possible to make a "bridge board" that bridges the Williams configuration to the Data East configuration and sits between the playfield connector and the board header (much like the special solenoid fuse board). This is a simple end user solution but the end user still needs to remember to install the board (just like the end user would need to set the DIP switches). Human input involvement = potential for error. Nonetheless ... is this a good compromise?

    4) If I do go down a complete separate board for Data East do I keep the Williams physical layout that I already have and make modifications to the physical layout to support the schematic changes? Or do I scrap the Williams physical layout and reproduce the Data East physical layout? Keeping the Williams layout will make time to market MUCH faster because I don't have to re-layout 90%+ of the components and traces. Reproducing the Data East layout will make working on the board easier for those who only have experience with the original Data East layout rather than having to get familiar with the Williams layout and potentially translate between the two different layouts.

    Hmmm. That's a lot for the reader to contemplate. First world problems. <sigh>.

    Any input, feedback or comments are welcome. In the meantime I still need to work through the Data East schematic to identify and collate the differences between it and the Williams schematic to make sure I have a solid foundation to build on.

    #232 63 days ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    I actually did have one of these made but never posted it here.

    Boom! I will PM you.

    #233 63 days ago

    I certainly missed the memo.. where do we go to throw cash your way and get nice goodies in return?

    #234 63 days ago
    Quoted from jfesler:

    I certainly missed the memo.. where do we go to throw cash your way and get nice goodies in return?

    I don't have a store set up (yet). Send me a PM with what you're interested in and we'll go from there.

    #235 63 days ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    As a follow on from the differences in the special solenoid configuration it might be possible to make a "bridge board" that bridges the Williams configuration to the Data East configuration and sits between the playfield connector and the board header (much like the special solenoid fuse board). This is a simple end user solution but the end user still needs to remember to install the board (just like the end user would need to set the DIP switches). Human input involvement = potential for error. Nonetheless ... is this a good compromise?

    I really like this idea. Here's a thought. You can install the bridge board before shipment only for customers that need it. Then list the one with the bridge board pre-installed separately. Have one listing with it pre-installed and one without it, and state in the listing what brand and games each one is compatible with out of the box. This will avoid the human element of having the end user install the bridge board. Plus, anyone savvy enough can remove the board and use the main driver board in another game of the opposite brand. That keeps the solution flexible and minimizes costs and logistical complexity on your end. Just make a run of driver boards, and include bridge boards in orders that require them based on what the customer buys. Win-win, and they are customer removable in case the customer wants to move the driver board to the opposite brand of game at some point. Heck, you could even sell the bridge board separately as well for people so inclined to convert their existing driver board.

    #236 62 days ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    Last night I spent a little bit of time looking at the Data East CPU board schematic to build a plan for the board.

    Oh, I DO hope you can reproduce the Data East CPU boards! I need one badly for my POTO!!!

    Everyone else . . . please keep on assisting Victor with his projects. Sounds like he really listens to your thoughts, so together we can all make this work!

    Good luck!!!

    Mike in Kentucky

    #237 62 days ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    Last night I spent a little bit of time looking at the Data East CPU board schematic to build a plan for the board. It's obviously 90%+ identical to the Williams System 11 CPU board but there are differences. I have ideas for an approach but want to solicit opinion because I can try to think of reasons one way or the other but the truth is that the more people who have thoughts and inputs the better the solution will be. I don't believe in "I alone can build it" but I do believe in "I alone will build it and be responsible for it".
    I intend to use the System 11 schematic capture that I have due to the identical 90%+ electrical connections. There are few things that fall out from this.
    1) Do I somehow try to make a "new" universal board that supports both Williams and Data East circuitry in a single board? This is the Rottendog approach for MPU004. It has pros and cons. One pro is a single board to support everything so no need to maintain separate board inventory or potentially component inventory. One con is that the EPROM size jumpers and address line connections are different between the Data East schematic and the Williams schematic. Another con is it will require configuration settings meaning that the user may be required to change settings and any time a user is involved there is potential for error. I know that MPU004 has DIP settings for the switch solenoids and this is obviously a problem because it's documented on the PinWiki page (https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Data_East/Sega#Special_solenoid_problems_with_RottenDog_MPU_board).
    2) Do I make a separate Data East only board that supports the Data East jumpers (J1-J7) and the Data East special solenoid configuration? This minimizes confusion to the end user but means I have a dedicated board with separate inventory.
    3) As a follow on from the differences in the special solenoid configuration it might be possible to make a "bridge board" that bridges the Williams configuration to the Data East configuration and sits between the playfield connector and the board header (much like the special solenoid fuse board). This is a simple end user solution but the end user still needs to remember to install the board (just like the end user would need to set the DIP switches). Human input involvement = potential for error. Nonetheless ... is this a good compromise?
    4) If I do go down a complete separate board for Data East do I keep the Williams physical layout that I already have and make modifications to the physical layout to support the schematic changes? Or do I scrap the Williams physical layout and reproduce the Data East physical layout? Keeping the Williams layout will make time to market MUCH faster because I don't have to re-layout 90%+ of the components and traces. Reproducing the Data East layout will make working on the board easier for those who only have experience with the original Data East layout rather than having to get familiar with the Williams layout and potentially translate between the two different layouts.
    Hmmm. That's a lot for the reader to contemplate. First world problems. <sigh>.
    Any input, feedback or comments are welcome. In the meantime I still need to work through the Data East schematic to identify and collate the differences between it and the Williams schematic to make sure I have a solid foundation to build on.

    I don't know if this helps or not, but the only thing different between a DE -3 MPU and an 11C is the pinouts for the special solenoids. I have been running a DE MPU in my Rollergames for years now. For your design, if you use a reset generator, there is no need for +12v on the board at all. However, if you want this board to be compatible with 11/11A/11B also, then you will have to put some thought into the sound section and keep the +12v.

    IM000356 (resized).JPG
    #238 62 days ago

    Oh wow!! How in the world did Bally/Williams and Data East not sue each other over design overlap on these boards?

    #239 62 days ago
    Quoted from Crash:

    Oh wow!! How in the world did Bally/Williams and Data East not sue each other over design overlap on these boards?

    Not the first time this happened. I think Bally-35 and Stern M-200 boards are interchangeable. I bet there are a bunch more too.

    #240 62 days ago
    Quoted from Crash:

    Oh wow!! How in the world did Bally/Williams and Data East not sue each other over design overlap on these boards?

    just one of the many reasons WMS was at odds with DataEast during the 80/90s Copying ideas, designs, knockoffs, scooping each other, etc. Lead to lots of lawsuits... dirty pool in the distribution channel... all kinds of cutthroat stuff.

    12
    #241 62 days ago

    Interesting historical progression ...

    Williams introduced the A/C switching (multiplexing) of the solenoid drive transistors. Williams initially assigned the A-side (relay de-energized state) to the solenoids and the C-side (relay energized state) to the flashers. In the event of relay failure at least the solenoids still worked and the game could be played (without the additional light show).

    There was one issue with this in that there was no feedback to the software which side was energized. A software intent to fire a flasher and relay failure without C-side power engagement would result in a solenoid firing instead of the flasher. Williams fixed this with the additional 4N25 optocoupler on the interconnect board. Introduced after Taxi.

    Data East on the other hand initially implemented the A/C relay by putting the flashers on the relay de-energized state and the solenoids on the relay energized state. Presumably to avoid any potential lawsuit about copying. The problem is that failure of the A/C relay causes the machine to just sit there and flash its flashers instead of firing the solenoids. The game cannot be played.

    Williams introduced software controlled flippers with its "fliptronic" technology. This allowed the end-of-stroke switch to be changed from a high voltage normally closed switch to a low voltage normally open switch. The advantages and disadvantages are beyond the scope of this post.

    Data East also introduced software controlled flippers with its "Deger" system. These are the Data East flipper boards. If you have one in front of you then you can witness something that still gives me a chuckle every time I see it. It is also shown in the schematic. Do a web search if you want more information.

    ty-ffasi.jpg
    #242 62 days ago
    Quoted from Gott_Lieb:

    I don't know if this helps or not, but the only thing different between a DE -3 MPU and an 11C is the pinouts for the special solenoids.

    Firstly ... thank you for the information. It helps tremendously. The following is argument for argument's sake not a criticism. As I previously mentioned I want to have all my ducks in a row before embarking on another big board. I did this with the other big boards that are complete but I didn't do it in a public "thought process" like this one.

    There's actually a few more differences. The DE board uses a reset generator, allows for use of an 8MHz oscillator with a frequency divider, has a 74LS126 for address line selection and has different address line access to the high parts of the EPROM address space. The DE board supports the use of a fully addressable 27512 EPROM at 5C whereas the Williams board only support addressing up to 27256 for the EPROM at U27. Both boards support a 27128 in 5B or U26. The jumper selection is different and the DE schematic does not document J5a/J5b nor J6a/J6b. I will have to look at a physical board to figure out what those jumpers do.

    Quoted from Gott_Lieb:

    I have been running a DE MPU in my Rollergames for years now.

    It is largely the same board though. The EPROM addressing support and differences mean that a DE board will be usable in a Williams machine but a Williams board may not be usable in a DE machine. Hence why you're able to use the DE board in your Rollergames. Nice bridge or translation between the solenoid drive wires you made there. Impressive!

    Quoted from Gott_Lieb:

    For your design, if you use a reset generator, there is no need for +12v on the board at all. However, if you want this board to be compatible with 11/11A/11B also, then you will have to put some thought into the sound section and keep the +12v.

    My System 11 board uses a reset generator. I got rid of that reset circuitry and reclaimed the space (along with the battery holder) to implement the "C" of the NLA SRC components.

    After staring at the schematic and noting more differences I'm leaning towards doing a completely separate board for DE. This will take a little longer as I will probably do the layout the same as the DE but the biggest thing for me going this way is that the schematic in the DE manuals will be usable. There won't be a "where I can find the Rottendog schematic for MPU004?" equivalent. If the board uses the same schematic and same layout for all the critical circuitry function that question is moot. The boards will outlive me as long as the manual and schematic is available.

    I would consider building a bridge board for the solenoid connectors to allow the board to be used in a Williams System 11C machine - but only System 11C due to the lack of sound requirement for those machines.

    #243 62 days ago
    Quoted from Shredso:

    Not the first time this happened. I think Bally-35 and Stern M-200 boards are interchangeable.

    -35 and -100 are. -200 has some more stuff on it.

    #244 62 days ago

    For some reason ... Friday seems to be board arrival day. Sometimes it's Thursday. Probably related to the day of the week I tend to get orders for boards placed. This latest batch contains 3 separate categories but this post will only go into one of them. I have some other outstanding work to complete before I can start focusing on the other boards. I like to know what the state of boards are because if they don't work then I start a background priority thread trying to figure out possibilities for reasons why they don't work. While those threads are simmering in the background I'll probably go back to the DE board. I suspect the DE board will be classic example of exponential growth (or progress). It will start slow as I chip away at it and when I have a plan and approach it will take off. Very quickly.

    So what do we have this time. I should point out that these boards have been in the works for a while. I don't want it thought that these boards had higher priority than any other potential board. The reason they're here and now is because I got the boards made and they're in. My expiring mind wants to get them assembled and find out if they work or not.

    The Indianapolis 500 Illuminated Target Board. That opto interrupter seems to cause some grief. The original board (still with mounting bracket) is on the left. The first reproduction with compatible 3mm opto is next. This board has been sitting around and I just put one together as there is a request for one. It passes on the bench and produces the correct results.

    Quoted from Schwaggs:

    any chance you could make a version with the wider opto to avoid breaking the tab on the targets?

    Ask and you shall receive. Sorry. That was being a little facetious. Here it is though. The two right boards use a 5mm opto and also isolate the opto from the switch matrix wiring. I had thought about putting an indicator LED but I already had to make the board a little bigger to support the transistor that isolates the opto and I didn't want to make the board any bigger. I made two versions. A "narrow" and a "wide". The narrow version has mounting bracket hole separation the same width as the original board. You should be able to re-use your mounting bracket. The hole to opto spacing supports a #4-40 machine screw head. The wide version requires a new mounting bracket. I'm working through this with another Pinside user.

    boards_092.jpg

    Closer image showing the new board differences. This will be cross-posted to other threads where interest has been expressed. I know this thread can be a tough read for people.

    boards_093.jpg

    And finally this board is the Position Encoder Board (A-20533 or A-20533.1-1). The board is used in Johnny Mnemonic and The Champion Pub. I know. You're asking ... why this board? Well ... the request for this board was made on October 24th (about 4 weeks ago). I just chipped away at the board and went through my normal process and it finally reached the complete reproduction stage. About 4 weeks or one month. Spot on my original estimate. This board also uses the new 5mm opto.

    boards_094.jpg

    None of them are tested but they'll get tested on my bench very shortly. I have very high confidence because I already built a prototype board and used the opto in said prototype board. These final boards use the same circuitry so there's every reason to believe that they will work.

    #245 61 days ago

    I finally finished my mpu89 board last night. It works, but I screwed up something during the build that has me scratching my head. I bench tested the board before I installed it, and on first boot I was pained to discover none of the LEDs (D19, D20, and D21) worked. I started checking my voltage and jumpers, and they seemed to be ok. The 12V led was working, and I thought it was really odd that D21 was not lighting up (the +5v circuit). After swapping out the processor, and ASCI chip, I confirmed they were good. I then broke out my o-scope to start checking data lines and address lines. There was activity on the lines, so the processor was running. I then checked the voltage at the LEDs themselves. D21 was showing almost 4 volts, so why wasn't it lighting up? I was starting to suspect the LEDs themselves... Did I install them backwards? I put the board in my Addams family, and it booted up! I was able to play a couple of games with no problems. So I must have either ordered the wrong LEDs, or installed them backwards.

    Here are the LEDs I am using. Can they be used in a 5v circuit?
    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/859-LTL-307EE

    #246 61 days ago
    Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

    Did I install them backwards?

    Probably this.

    For the LED the longer lead (although I'm sure you cut already cut the excess off) is the ANODE ("positive") and the shorter lead is the CATHODE ("negative"). The positive hole on the board is square. The negative hole on the board is circular (standard). The datasheet shows the dome has a dot or notch indicating the cathode end of the LED. That should line up with the "flat" end of the LED silkscreen on the board.

    You can also check by doing a diode test on the LED. It should light up. The configuration of the leads from the DMM should confirm which is anode and which is cathode as you've installed it.

    #247 61 days ago

    Well I figured out what I did wrong. The LEDs were in the board in the correct orientation. The problem was with the 470 ohm resistors in the circuit. When I did my parts order, I accidentally purchased 470k ohm resistors i stead of 470 ohm. The LEDs would not work because they were not getting enough amperage. I messed up all the the 470 ohm resistors (there are 9 total), so I’m surprised the board even boots.

    #248 61 days ago
    Quoted from uncivil_engineer:

    I messed up all the the 470 ohm resistors (there are 9 total), so I’m surprised the board even boots.

    As you've discovered 3x of the 470 Ohm resistors are the current limiting resistors for the LEDs.

    The other 6x of the 470 Ohm resistors are pull-down resistors. The signals are tied directly to ground. The lower the resistance the stronger the pull-down. The signals are fixed so it makes sense that the board still works.

    Glad you got it figured out and working!

    #249 61 days ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    I know this thread can be a tough read for people

    non sense... one of the most interesting on pinside!

    #250 60 days ago

    Chris Hibler demonstrates one of your test boards here: DumbAss CHRISHIBLER

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