Some DumbAss pron to celebrate the 1000!
79DFAF9B-210E-4084-9CEF-7FD0E47E27E1 (resized).jpeg(Topic ID: 242158)
Ottawa, ON
Quoted from dmacy:Some DumbAss pron to celebrate the 1000!
[quoted image]
Looking good!!!
WPC 089 cpu board
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/k1zukh2w88mj4mtbtr4io/w89_cpu__WPC-089-CPU.zip?rlkey=yb46hxblovk1robj3soakjwe1&dl=0
w89_cpu__WPC-089-CPU (resized).png
I will continue work on the rest of victor's boards after I'm back from expo
Chesterfield, MO
j_m_
This is another good one to add to the PinWiki.
If you have it in final state, and can email it to me, I can get it posted.
[email protected]
Thanks!
Chris
Quoted from DumbAss:Post #1000. Woot! I never thought I would've made it this far.
Quoted from DumbAss:During my time off,
You need time off from your time off. :mrgeen:
Well done. I wanna place an order, but .. holy hell, I feel bad giving you MORE work. 
Quoted from Coyote:I wanna place an order, but .. holy hell, I feel bad giving you MORE work.
2.5 weeks since return. I took advantage of the re-adjustment (jet lag). When I woke up at some crazy hour and didn't feel tired I just kept cracking the whip on building boards. I far exceeded my expectations. I just sent out nine packages today (7 complete, 2 bare) - mostly System 9 and System 11 CPU boards. I burned the candle at both ends to get ahead of the curve. I feel like I'm ahead of the curve but I'm not even halfway to clearing out the backlog of work.
My advice is ... if you want something then commit sooner rather than later. The build queue never really seems to get any shorter or close to zero. If you are flexible and don't have time requirements you should still commit so I can fit you in my schedule on my priority. Flexibility allows me to not feel so pressured to deliver as the work load fluctuates up and down. If you are flexible then it is much better for my mental health and sanity.
The reason I am burning the candle at both ends is because nothing will happen in December and most of January. I will be away (again). For this reason I have actually doubled the normal quota for November and it's already full (at this level). I have to have time left over before I go to finish boards that will be transported. Those are the highest priority as the time nears.
I don’t know if I should install this or just wonder at its awesomeness. Not just replacements. Upgrades. So well thought out for the user.
Thanks again Victor!
Chris
3F29E164-62E9-43F0-A439-02AD633EEB4B (resized).jpeg5420E8CE-CFC7-4FF2-9941-786BF48CFCC2 (resized).jpeg728D691C-5EF1-47F7-A4C3-209B13C5E1A2 (resized).jpegC10842A7-3E06-4586-8E52-B7936C573FD3 (resized).jpegDE9CA847-AAFA-44F6-9B4D-1BDB326C8F45 (resized).jpegE94D88D0-2B0F-4129-A9BE-503BC82AD69E (resized).jpegEA5D0032-2659-490D-9976-6FEBE61021CF (resized).jpegF069A10F-DB8C-41F1-98F9-90789950CF1B (resized).jpegimage (resized).jpgQuoted from SilverUnicorn:I don’t know if I should install this or just wonder at its awesomeness. Not just replacements. Upgrades. So well thought out for the user.
Thanks again Victor!
Chris[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
awesome.
DumbAss what is your preferred tool for cutting the leads off the back of the board after soldering. I see you make them flush with the board, might try that. I just cut the lead myself leaving a little peak shape dome. But might like to try your way next, not sure if I have big enough pliers to make a clean cut though. I am using the Hakko one, little red handle.
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:awesome.
DumbAss what is your preferred tool for cutting the leads off the back of the board after soldering. I see you make them flush with the board, might try that. I just cut the lead myself leaving a little peak shape dome. But might like to try your way next, not sure if I have big enough pliers to make a clean cut though. I am using the Hakko one, little red handle.
You are supposed to leave some of the lead exposed with a nice fillet of solder on the back. If it is truly cut flush to the back of the board that is not a good thing. I've seen issues caused by trimming the leads too close. Williams did a lot of that on their System 6 board sets.
A nice visual guide to soldering is here:
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-guide-excellent-soldering/common-problems
And another from NASA with some good pictures:
https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/601%20General%20Requirements.html
Quoted from Robotworkshop:You are supposed to leave some of the lead exposed with a nice fillet of solder on the back. If it is truly cut flush to the back of the board that is not a good thing. I've seen issues caused by trimming the leads too close. Williams did a lot of that on their System 6 board sets.
A nice visual guide to soldering is here:
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-guide-excellent-soldering/common-problems
And another from NASA with some good pictures:
https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/insp/2%20books/links/sections/601%20General%20Requirements.html
thank you for this, I can proudly say I follow NASA guidelines now. I do it exactly as in all the shown examples 
Quoted from jellikit:Victor donated two custom purple PCBs to Project Pinball for our charity auction at Pinball Expo. It is not possible to purchase a purple boards from him, they are only produced and released in special circumstances such as this. I spoke with him and want to let everyone know we'll have online bidding this year for items. I will continue to update the thread here with details:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/expo-2022-charity-auction-with-thread-updates
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
The bids for the WPC89 Purple Power Board are going through the roof in this charity auction. Which is awesome for the worthy charity. But challenging for my checkbook. LOL.
Quoted from Tophervette:The bids for the WPC89 Purple Power Board are going through the roof in this charity auction. Which is awesome for the worthy charity. But challenging for my checkbook. LOL.
I won't go too high.
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:what is your preferred tool for cutting the leads off the back of the board after soldering.
https://www.harborfreight.com/micro-flush-cutter-90708.html
It's cheap. It works.
Quoted from Robotworkshop:You are supposed to leave some of the lead exposed with a nice fillet of solder on the back. If it is truly cut flush to the back of the board that is not a good thing. I've seen issues caused by trimming the leads too close.
I am not trained or "learned" as an electrical engineer. I trained in the "school of hard knocks". I am not trying to argue for argument's sake but this doesn't appear to be a case of right or wrong (correct or incorrect). It appears to be a case of preference or opinion. What are the issues that you have seen? What is the reasoning for being "supposed to leave some of the lead exposed"? I don't see any reasoning in that document.
I have repaired quite a few boards where the leads were bent over for wave soldering. The bent over leads were stuck in the solder and impossible to bend straight to get the vacuum desoldering tool nozzle around the pad. Even cutting the component body out leaving just the leads, it is still difficult to get around the soldered in bent lead. I understand why the boards were built that way. I don't bend the leads over. It makes removing the component in the future much easier.
I have also repaired quite a few boards where someone previously installed a component and bent one or more legs overs to make soldering / installing easier (such as a TO-220 = TIP102 or an IC socket). It makes de-soldering / replacement much harder. Everything I do is focused on serviceability. This is my repair slant rather than manufacture slant. I have seen (in my previous career) many "designers" design something that is impossible to debug or service. In my opinion, that's poor design. In the software world, 50% of the life cycle is debug and maintenance. Sad part was that a lot of these people got rewarded because the people making those reward decisions did not understand the implications of the poor design, only the marketing fluff that came with the designer.
In my (non-electrically trained) opinion, all that matters is the joint is clean (not cold or cracked) and the component is solidly installed to ensure correct electrical function. A properly trimmed component that does NOT work is of no use to anyone. Function first. Form second. Bonus for both.
Again, not trying to combative or argumentative. Just looking for reasons why such a recommendation exists. I once encountered someone who said they did something because they had been doing it that way for 15 years without a reason and said it was his way or the highway.
Quoted from DumbAss:I once encountered someone who said they did something because they had been doing it that way for 15 years without a reason and said it was his way or the highway.
Let me introduce you to railroad signaling. 90% of the guys in this industry have been in it for 30+ years, and were taught by guys that were in it for 30+ years, who were apprenticed under guys who had been in it for 30+ years.. When I wanted a new crossing to use a different, NEW, kind of system, the looks I got was, 'why'? We've never had issues with the old way! ... Yeah, you haven't - if you don't count getting paged at 2am in the dead of winter because the county salted the road and caused the crossing to malfunction. The new system prevents that. And, 7 years later? No midnight calls in sub-freezing temperatures.
Rambling, but yeah, just because it's been done for the last 'x' years just means 'it works', not that 'there's no better way'.
Quoted from DumbAss:https://www.harborfreight.com/micro-flush-cutter-90708.html
It's cheap. It works.I am not trained or "learned" as an electrical engineer. I trained in the "school of hard knocks". I am not trying to argue for argument's sake but this doesn't appear to be a case of right or wrong (correct or incorrect). It appears to be a case of preference or opinion. What are the issues that you have seen? What is the reasoning for being "supposed to leave some of the lead exposed"? I don't see any reasoning in that document.
I have repaired quite a few boards where the leads were bent over for wave soldering. The bent over leads were stuck in the solder and impossible to bend straight to get the vacuum desoldering tool nozzle around the pad. Even cutting the component body out leaving just the leads, it is still difficult to get around the soldered in bent lead. I understand why the boards were built that way. I don't bend the leads over. It makes removing the component in the future much easier.
I have also repaired quite a few boards where someone previously installed a component and bent one or more legs overs to make soldering / installing easier (such as a TO-220 = TIP102 or an IC socket). It makes de-soldering / replacement much harder. Everything I do is focused on serviceability. This is my repair slant rather than manufacture slant. I have seen (in my previous career) many "designers" design something that is impossible to debug or service. In my opinion, that's poor design. In the software world, 50% of the life cycle is debug and maintenance. Sad part was that a lot of these people got rewarded because the people making those reward decisions did not understand the implications of the poor design, only the marketing fluff that came with the designer.
In my (non-electrically trained) opinion, all that matters is the joint is clean (not cold or cracked) and the component is solidly installed to ensure correct electrical function. A properly trimmed component that does NOT work is of no use to anyone. Function first. Form second. Bonus for both.
Again, not trying to combative or argumentative. Just looking for reasons why such a recommendation exists. I once encountered someone who said they did something because they had been doing it that way for 15 years without a reason and said it was his way or the highway.
Didn't mean to critical and think all of your work is exceptional. However I really don't think it is a good idea to cut leads completely flush with the boards for a few reasons. It is all personal preference and you can keep on doing it or if you think the reasons listed have merit that make sense to you then change if you want.
Folding leads is a completely separate issue not to be mixed with the flush cutting of leads. I don't bend leads over when I build boards and when that is done it makes it a pain to service down the road. I agree with you 100% about all the issues that can raise.
So, back to flush cutting the leads. Maybe we have a different understanding on what is meant by flush cutting. If you just trim off the excess lead that is fine. But if it is cut totally flush with the back of the board that is where I think there are issues.
- I've always read that cutting leads flush after soldering stresses the joint significantly. It may actually break loose the solder connection from the lead. If you just trim the lead and not the solder itself then that doesn't happen. Feel free to search and see what others say about that. Personally I think this is what caused many issues with the Williams System 3-7 board sets. Many were cut way too close from the factory causing the solder joints to fracture.
- When the leads are cut completely flush and end up getting solder fractures or cold solder joints then reflowing and resoldering is a PITA. You don't have the lead exposed to heat that up easily along with the pad.
- When the leads are cut completely flush then it doesn't seem to give as much physical mounting support to the part. They seem more prone to move, etc causing fractured solder joints.
I'll trim them to the top of where the solder flows but try not to cut down much below that if possible due to the reasons above.
I understood flush cutting as just cutting the lead flush with the top of the solder fillet, which is acceptable per IPC standards. You don't want to cut into the solder fillet and should never cut flush with the back of the board.
IPC issues standards for soldering including lead cutting/protrusion. See pages 22-23 of this demo file: http://www.ipctraining.org/demos/pdf/drm-pth-e.pdf
Gaborone
I think an important point has been missed here - DumbAss says he solders components on the TOP side of the PCB so flush cutting underneath wouldn't make much difference in this case as the part is firmly soldered from the top.
I prefer a nice fillet and cut the lead at the end of that fillet BUT I can see why flush cutting, in this instance, would work OK.
If you look at the pics I posted a few posts back, here's the thing that baffles me. These are HAND SOLDERED (i believe). All the components are in exactly the same position, with the writing in exactly the same spot. The attention to detail is just astounding to me. Or maybe I'm easily impressed. LOL
Chris
now that we are talking soldering, allow me to do a quick flex while I show you my just rebuilt Data East Playfield Board. Hopefully soon next, I will be working on @dumbas DE CPU/Driver board to replace the OEM that has seen better days.
68780366096__9CE3D0FC-0278-4374-A00F-65916764BB0F (resized).jpeg68780367711__F9A20192-1858-4D86-A40C-FC0AB46B0FD1 (resized).jpeg
Truganina
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:now that we are talking soldering, allow me to do a quick flex while I show you my just rebuilt Data East Playfield Board. Hopefully soon next, I will be working on @dumbas DE CPU/Driver board to replace the OEM that has seen better days.[quoted image][quoted image]
Nice soldering work.
Matt.
Quoted from pins4u:I think an important point has been missed here - DumbAss says he solders components on the TOP side of the PCB so flush cutting underneath wouldn't make much difference in this case as the part is firmly soldered from the top.
I prefer a nice fillet and cut the lead at the end of that fillet BUT I can see why flush cutting, in this instance, would work OK.
That point wasn’t missed but even when that is done the solder on the top I still would only trim the lead itself and try not to cut into the solder fillet. I solder on the top as well to ensure a good solid connection and a clean look. There are also some parts like connectors and switches you really can’t solder from the top and those can benefit from the extra support.
Victor makes nice boards. I just questioned the process of cutting totally flush with the PCB since I think they can be better if just cut at the lead.
Beautiful work Victor!
DumbAss
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
69BE6376-2B3A-4C16-9901-3400DA5F7D56 (resized).jpeg
Quoted from DumbAss:What are the issues that you have seen? What is the reasoning for being "supposed to leave some of the lead exposed"?
I'm in agreeance with Robotworkshop
I don't see any benefit cutting totally flush, rather it makes it more difficult to desolder later on. I desolder with the gun tip against the component lead rather than against the board pad (to avoid damaging the pad).
Quoted from Quench:I'm in agreeance with Robotworkshop
I don't see any benefit cutting totally flush, rather it makes it more difficult to desolder later on. I desolder with the gun tip against the component lead rather than against the board pad (to avoid damaging the pad).
The pads on these boards are so thick that ou can probanly desolder a component 3-5times before it gets damaged. In fact, I have desoldered more than 3 times before on this boards without any consequence to the board. After the 4 attempt I think I tiny little chip of red mask came off. Nothing.
So in 30 years how many of these components are you expecting to replace?
These boards will outlive us all.
These are not the bally williams boards or worse, Stern board with micro thin pads.
I think that we are over thinking it.
This board in particular will see no benefit of the techniques recomended by Nasa. I mean, we are talking rockets here and consistency.
Do not think there is a right or wrong here, but more of “what you prefer”.
I can see the benefit of soldering neatly from the top ans then trimming the bottom. Time saver galore!
Ultimately consistency is key. Good technique is key.
I personally tack from the top, so i can flip the board with a full row of resistors or else, flip it over and finish off all once.
The big takeaway from the nasa techniques for me is the clip the leads before you solder, to avoid mechanical stress in the solder by clipping after soldering.
Yeah, I don't do that either. Clip with a little lead sticking out of the top of the mound.
Quoted from slochar:The big takeaway from the nasa techniques for me is the clip the leads before you solder, to avoid mechanical stress in the solder by clipping after soldering.
Yeah, I don't do that either. Clip with a little lead sticking out of the top of the mound.
Well, it is the Nasa and they need that consistency when you have a 1B project orbiting around earth. Lol
I dont think it really matter much for our applications.
I clip at the end of the process. It’s fine.
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:So in 30 years how many of these components are you expecting to replace?
Me personally? zero. I don't work on these games.
30 years of oxidization to the solder and heat stress on the board might not sustain the simplicity of desoldering you enjoy now on a fresh board.
I haven't seen a single response for the advantages of flush cutting.
We all agree what DumbAss is doing is amazing. Focusing on serviceability for everyone means leaving some of the component lead there. Just my opinion.
It seems that folks in this conversation might be talking past each other.
Although we all (at least most of us) use “flush cutters” to trim leads, including Victor, I don’t think any of us cut the leads “flush” with the board.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
Quoted from ChrisHibler:It seems that folks in this conversation might be talking past each other.
Although we all (at least most of us) use “flush cutters” to trim leads, including Victor, I don’t think any of us cut the leads “flush” with the board, including Victor.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
Hello Chris,
That could be the case and I don't think anyone is knocking Victors work. He really does a fantastic job on his boards.
However, I did bring up the point that trimming the leads completely flush with the board may not be a best practice and has some downsides. I prefer to leave most of the filet intact for the reasons I stated earlier. I've never heard any positive reasons to cut them completely flush but have read many reasons not too. Just mentioned it so that Victors boards could be even better.
Robert
Quoted from ChrisHibler:Although we all (at least most of us) use “flush cutters” to trim leads, including Victor, I don’t think any of us cut the leads “flush” with the board, including Victor.
Guessing the conversation started from the picture in post #1008 showing the leads flush cut to the board.
Quoted from Quench:Guessing the conversation started from the picture in post #1008 showing the leads flush cut to the board.
Oh. Ya. I see that now.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
Quoted from Robotworkshop:However, I did bring up the point that trimming the leads completely flush with the board may not be a best practice and has some downsides. I prefer to leave most of the filet intact for the reasons I stated earlier. I've never heard any positive reasons to cut them completely flush but have read many reasons not too. Just mentioned it so that Victors boards could be even better.
Yes sir. Agree 100%.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
Combined reply post. It's long. Apologies in advance.
This issue has been consuming too many "brain cycles" so it's best to try and just put an end to it. This is taking away from my focus of building boards.
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:These are HAND SOLDERED (i believe).
These are built by hand - mostly. All the soldering is done by hand. I used to bend ALL the leads by hand, but since my friend bought one of those lead bending machines (not the lead bending tool), I run any 10.16mm, 12.70mm and 15.24mm lead spacing components through the machine. Doing this means that the text on any ceramic capacitor or DO-35 / DO-41 diode will not necessarily have the text showing. There is an entry in the NASA document that says:
"UNACCEPTABLE
IDENTIFICATION MARKS MISSING
The component (capacitor C47) has been mounted with the identification marks on the underside of the component body (against the circuit board), preventing visual confirmation that the correct value part is installed.
NASA-STD-8739.3 [8.1.3]"
I used to line up ALL the text markings so that the component value is visible. I would line up all the text so it would be upright and consistent. This is great if you bend all the leads by hand and can align everything up. When I did this, it would take me 3-4 hours to get a board prepared for "phase 0 = all low profile components on a board ready for soldering". Now that I've shifted to using the lead bending machine I can get the preparation time down to 1-2 hours for the larger sized boards. The price for this is that the text on text labeled components no longer meets the NASA standard and would be deemed "UNACCEPTABLE". Good thing the boards don't deal with rocket control. Then again, most modern boards are surface mount so I'm sure those components are completely unidentifiable on the board itself and I would guess they don't meet the NASA standard either but they still get used.
Quoted from SilverUnicorn:All the components are in exactly the same position, with the writing in exactly the same spot.
The components that you are looking at are the 1N5408 and 6A4 diodes that I bent by hand using the lead bending tool (not machine). Those are 20.32mm lead spacing and I bend those by hand. As they are done by hand I line up the text on the body and make sure the value is visible when installed. It's the same with the fuses. Take a close look at the fuses. You should be able to see the rating on the fuse without having to pull it out. It's a little extra work at insertion to prevent extra work in the future.
My two points here are:
- How much more time do you want manufacturing to take at the cost of certain things?
- How far do you want to go on the detail at the cost of the time taken?
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:just rebuilt Data East Playfield Board.
This board is a single-sided board. There are NO plated through holes so the solder will quickly pile up at the pad. Soldering these boards requires different expectations of what the solder will do when you apply it. OEM lamp boards are also single-sided.
Quoted from Quench:rather it makes it more difficult to desolder later on. I desolder with the gun tip against the component lead rather than against the board pad (to avoid damaging the pad).
I just re-worked a board that I incorrectly labeled (resistor 103 instead of 101). I installed the 103 and thought to myself afterwards, where are the 101 resistors that I expect? I then realized what I did when I was laying out the board. Classic copy/paste error. So I had to remove the 103 resistors. I actually found that while I had to put the nozzle up against the pad the component came out much quicker and easier than any OEM component I have had to de-solder. Granted the solder is fresh and that's a variable that has to be considered. You can't even see that the board was re-worked. I have never had this experience with the bent leads used on components when the board is wave soldered. I always struggle with getting the nozzle into the bent lead because the bent lead is embedded with the solder. In these cases, it's impossible to not touch the pad to get the solder out.
Quoted from DumbAss:I am not trained or "learned" as an electrical engineer. I trained in the "school of hard knocks".
All the traditional documents say that soldering should be done from the solder side. When learning to drive, traditional teaching is that you should never "skip gears when shifting up".
The one thing that may not be obvious is that when you solder from the component side, gravity causes the solder mound (fillet) to be much larger on the solder side than if you were to solder from the solder side. The size of the mound depends on the amount of solder applied and while I try to make it consistent, it's not always consistent because it is done by hand. When you solder from the solder side, you have to fight gravity with the component (hence why some people bend the legs or leads) but the advantage is that the excess solder will build a mound on the component side and the difference in the mound size is not obvious (hidden among the components). The mound on the solder side in this instance is typically consistent and much flatter due to gravity pulling the solder (while molten) into the through hole. Wave soldering machines should produce a consistent mound because the heat applied to the board (pads) is even across the board.
Soldering from the component side is a very different experience. The major reason why I do it this way is that I can complete the soldering of the low profile components in significantly less time. I don't have to install some components, flip the board over, solder those components in, adjust positioning of the component because they are not aligned straight, lather, rinse and repeat for all the components. I can complete the soldering of the low profile components from the component side in about 2 hours. If I soldered them from the solder side it would probably be 3x-4x the amount of time. Using water soluble flux solder allows the flux to be washed off easily. Using a rosin based flux would require a lot more chemicals (known to the state of California to cause cancer) to wash off the flux.
So after spending far too many brains cycles thinking about this (and writing this post), I think it's safe to summarize (in my mind) as it doesn't fall into the "correct or incorrect" category (although you could argue the mechanical aspect may fall into this category) but rather into the "good, better, best" category. I'll take the feedback, try it and see if it affects the build time.
Nowadays, build time is the biggest thing that affects a decision for me. If there's any way that I can reduce build time I will do it. I have a build queue that stretches out two months now and this is with the beyond overflowed November list that I want to start soon to stay ahead of the curve. If it takes me 4x longer to build a board then I can only build 1/4x the amount that I do now in the same amount of time.
I don't really have any hard data but I think Williams caused a bit of their own reliability issues in the system 3 to 6 era by cutting the leads almost flush to the back of the board. Makes it hard to resoldered them.
It only really shows up on the header pins, but I've have had transistor get cracked solder from flapping around. The little volcano solder shape of solder formed by surface tension should help with mechanically securing the part.
20221021_153725 (resized).jpgQuoted from barakandl:I don't really have any hard data but I think Williams caused a bit of their own reliability issues in the system 3 to 6 era by cutting the leads almost flush to the back of the board. Makes it hard to resoldered them.
It only really shows up on the header pins, but I've have had transistor get cracked solder from flapping around. The little volcano solder shape of solder formed by surface tension should help with mechanically securing the part.[quoted image]
Relative.
If the older solder is removed first is not an issue I think.
Reflowing is just lazy nowadays, imho. Maybe back in the day they lacked proper desoldering tools.
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:Relative.
If the older solder is removed first is not an issue I think.
Reflowing is just lazy nowadays, imho. Maybe back in the day they lacked proper desoldering tools.
On the System 3-6 boards just removing the old solder isn't enough either. You really need to pull out those connectors and clean off the oxidation on the pins that go into the PCB. Or, replace them. Then you can resolder and get a good connection.
I want to follow up on my last post with a separate post rather than an edit.
I remember from a long career having to do with email that communication in text is hard. What you're thinking is often not conveyed accurately in the words. Being absolutely explicit is often required. Emoticons (emojis) help with this.
I want to explicit state that the feedback and comments are appreciated even if the text may not convey that. I know that people are posting the feedback not to be combative but to try to make a better product. The last thing I want to do is fall into the same problem that another board manufacturing venture fell into (ignoring feedback, poor quality control and poor custom communication).
It may have been lost in the wad of text but: I will modify my process with the feedback and comments and see what happens to build time.
I sometimes feel that I may be falling into a trap with the emphasis on build time. Often build time decreases come at the cost of quality or attention to detail. It's hard to maintain a good balance between the two.
I made some more board population progress this afternoon (versus yesterday where I was thinking about and research the issue being discussed) so I feel much better about everything. I have a (self-imposed) hard deadline the following weekend. I would like to have some boards completed for a local delivery / pickup and when I see the work required I always get anxious. At least until it's more under control. Back to soldering tonight. Make more progress!
Victor, you have been nothing short of fantastic. You acknowledge any issues, communicate to a level that I wish my company and colleagues would, and make it feel like ordering with you is a personal concierge experience.
The improvements and quality of work speaks for itself. I think any normal (If you can call us on this hobby that) person knows there will be some delays when ordering quality. You get what you pay and wait for.
Quoted from Pin_Fandango:Relative.
If the older solder is removed first is not an issue I think.
Reflowing is just lazy nowadays, imho. Maybe back in the day they lacked proper desoldering tools.
You can't even form a good joint totally desoldering it, the wave soldering machine forms better joints some how. You end up with a questionable round cup instead of the volcano. Those round pin headers are garbage after 40 years anyways and probably need to go
“ You end up with a questionable round cup instead of the volcano. Those round pin headers are garbage after 40 years anyways and probably need to go”
Yep. I call those zits.
I don’t mess with those old round headers. I always replace them. That means that all Williams S3-9 boards will have all of their headers replaced when they come to my shop.
—
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info
what I've found that works for me when I've been populating boards is the following:
- like victor's original work, I've been using component bending tools (those plastic wedge shaped devices) to get the right length bends and to [try] and perfectly line up the component text so that it is visible. I'm not running some sweat shop, so time isn't of the essence (when it's done, it's done)
NOTE: while the these bending tools work great, the components do not fit in the channels perfectly (they are a little on the large side) so I typically align the [right] edge of all of the components with the inside edge of the bending tool to try and achieve a uniform look for the components
- I flare the component legs out enough to hold the component in place top side to tack solder them in place. after securing one leg (or 2 opposing diagonal legs for sockets/ic's), I will adjust the positioning of the components using a thumb (topside) while re-heating that leg. this is especially helpful with sockets (of which I use the machined pin variety, not dual swipe any more)
- after the component(s) are secure, I use a pair of hakko flush cutters to cut the legs at the top of the solder fillet
NOTE: once all of the components have been installed and all of excess leg length(s) have been cut, I go back and re-flow all of the solder connections for consistency (this helps to catch any missed connections [specifically with sockets]). what's also amazing is how much extra solder you end up "drawing or wicking" off of the fillets when re-flowing the entire board
I'll post photos of the 2 of victor's boards that I've populated along with 2 arcade projects (a gottlieb q*bert logic, and sound board) to show my work tonight
8257B333-28D6-490D-A2BD-E30D93C8C77B (resized).jpeg5F380779-0D81-41E3-B3AD-2930A69A2F79 (resized).jpeg6934EDC9-AD29-4D62-869E-C6452C4F5BEF (resized).jpeg74AD1E8E-710D-4DEF-96F7-958B1A26DA8F (resized).jpeg9239AA82-82AF-406E-A597-0C47F71076B6 (resized).jpegDD761942-7FB6-49D9-9C07-7C61523299F2 (resized).jpeg3C9F7A50-4868-4A02-A685-C86A26E8AC8D (resized).jpeg
Quoted from j_m_:wpc89 power driver
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzabqwj3bc2sd0u/w89_power_driver_WPC-089-PWR.zip?dl=0
[quoted image]
ps
is it just me, or do these make great wallpaper images?
pps
hat's off to victor for added the keyed box connectors. too many times are things questionable when reconnecting the ribbon cables
edit:
final board snapshot added. I've added the components for the switching regulator that victor did for the purple boards.
Quoted from jellikit:Victor donated two custom purple PCBs to Project Pinball for our charity auction at Pinball Expo. It is not possible to purchase a purple boards from him, they are only produced and released in special circumstances such as this. I spoke with him and want to let everyone know we'll have online bidding this year for items. I will continue to update the thread here with details:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/expo-2022-charity-auction-with-thread-updates
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
I want to thank Victor again for the donation, his purple boards sold for $700 and $325 respectively. There was a lot of interest and it was wonderful to have them available for bidders.
Reply
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!
Donate to PinsideGreat to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
