(Topic ID: 242158)

DumbAss test and reproduction PCBs


By DumbAss

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 2 hours ago by DumbAss
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    There are 418 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 9.
    #51 1 year ago

    Thanks for all the interest. I'm a little surprised at the amount of interest (considering most of these boards are available from other manufacturers and merchants). As a reminder ... I'm doing this for me (I like to learn new things) for the purposes of having a bench test rig that's more compact and supports multiple systems.

    <TL:DR> - just scroll to the pictures if you want a summary.

    If / when I get to the point of releasing these ... words of warning.

    1) The boards will likely not be cheaper than the other commercially available products. These boards use the original components and there are more of them than re-engineered boards as well as using more robust parts (such as Littelfuse fuse holders rather than fuse clips). Using original components provides the greatest level of compatibility.

    2) If I do decide to go with an option for kits (with components) it will not supply any of the more difficult or rare components that are hard to find. I source these from merchants in China (often via eBay) and there's risk that the components are either counterfeit or knock-offs. I can't accept the risk of warranting these components. Perhaps I might decide to provide them without warranty to people that are having trouble finding them.

    3) Following on from that it's unlikely I'll provide kits because I don't want to warrant any of the components I provide (plus the hassle of sorting and bagging separate single components). Merchants you buy parts from can provide that warranty. I may decide to provide an option WITHOUT any warranty on the components. Sorry. I'm not a professional business - just a guy who enjoys the hobby where perhaps other people can benefit from what I've done by sharing these boards.

    4) I might consider providing fully populated boards (for those that aren't adventurous with building their own) but again ... these won't be cheap. It's a lot of (manual) labor to build these. PCB manufacturing companies can wave solder which is much faster. I don't have those facilities. If anyone really wants one of these I could be persuaded to build one (when finally ready). These would come with complete components (as well as rare components) - a fully plug-and-play solution.

    With that aside ... I've been working on testing the boards and getting them working focusing on the displays for the moment. I have success for all the System 11, Data East and WPC alphanumeric displays. The majority of the master display logic works but there are some minor errors that will need correcting and the WPC board is more screwed up than I thought (nothing I couldn't fix by re-wiring with prototype boards).

    I know I have a friend who likes the traditional orange (or amber) but I'm kind of liking the white. I acquired a few different (common) colors to see how things turn out in actual machines. If people are interested in the displays I will provide the LED components as they aren't easily available (I had to make a reasonably sized minimum order quantity to get the components).

    The following works (pictures below) - tested on the bench. Also tested was the RJ-45 data and power connectors and they work. The setup shown below is where the master display board is directly attached to the slave display panel (as would be used in an actual machine).

    Williams System 11 (discrete 7x2/7x2/2x2) - High Speed to Pinbot. I'm going to try the setup in my Laser War at some stage but I expect it will work. I have every reason to believe it will. Note the status on the smaller lower panels. I checked it works with the discrete displays.

    Williams System 11 (panel 7x2/7x2) - F-14 Tomcat to Swords of Fury. Unfortunately the double panel is NOT correctly placed for the 7x2/7x2 arrangement in an actual machine. I will need to make a (new) specific double panel for use in an actual machine. I need one for me as I have a Big Guns that doesn't have a display.

    Williams System 11B/C (panel 16x2) - Taxi to Riverboard Gambler. I tested the jackpot display with Police Force and it works (no picture).

    Williams WPC-89 - Fun House and The Machine.

    I currently have no plans to make side-by-side panels that are used in Bally branded machines (such as Elvira). I don't have any of these machines.

    I have plenty of other things to work through so it will be a while before any of these will be ready.

    </TL:DR>

    boards_016.jpgboards_017.jpgboards_018.jpgboards_019.jpgboards_020.jpg
    #52 1 year ago

    Will take a white display for my BOP The Machine if possible.
    Mine is dying and it looks way better in white for this title I believe!

    #53 1 year ago

    Nice work. I would be interested in a WPC 89 Sound Board and BOM. Bare board for me. I will source parts and populate.
    I really like the idea of the socket for the ADSP-2105 on the DCS Sound Board.
    (I think that red looks cool, too)
    Wally

    #54 1 year ago

    As a tech who is doing more and more board repairs, I am VERY interested in a multi system test rig

    #55 1 year ago

    Interested in tester board for field service

    #56 1 year ago

    Too cool. Where exactly do you get PCB boards made anyway?

    2 weeks later
    #57 1 year ago
    Quoted from DGMartin:

    Too cool. Where exactly do you get PCB boards made anyway?

    Just type "PCB fabrication" into your search engine. There are many options available.

    #58 1 year ago

    Brief (haha - it seems I don't know what the word brief means) update.

    I have a local friend who took a bunch of the boards and he's going to populate them and see what happens. I always want someone else to do it because I think in a rather weird way from most people. Might be interested in other experiences populating boards but I'm waiting for the initial feedback.

    I also need to stress and field test the boards after any issues get resolved on my bench. "It works on the bench" is not an adequate excuse for failure in the field (I am always reminded of people I used to work with say "it works on my machine" as an excuse to not bother debugging a software failure).

    I've worked through the boards, isolated and corrected (most of) the issues. I've also added some additional features (or re-wired things for correction) so these new revisions will need testing on the bench.

    - Discrete displays (High Speed / Pinbot). The master and discrete boards work. Tested in my Laser War. This will be field tested in a Pinbot.

    - Quad display (Swords of Fury). The master board works. The panel layout is incorrect (display does not line up) so I need to layout a new board specifically for these machines.

    - Double display (Black Knight 2000 / The Simpsons). The master board works but the option selection does not. The panel display connector for the jackpot (Taxi / Police Force) is not correct (off by one error). I have one built and configured for Data East so this will be field tested in a The Simpsons.

    - WPC-89 sound board works in games that have a single EPROM in U18 or 1Mb EPROMs in U14/U15. Games that have larger EPROMs (such as 4Mb EPROMs in U14/15 = Twilight Zone) have some errors. I haven't looked at this ... yet. The board worked fine in my Gilligan's Island and Terminator 2. It tested fine on the bench with The Addams Family.

    - Interconnect board. This tested fine in my Police Force. This (along with an Auxiliary Power board that is currently in the machine) will be tested in a Pool Sharks.

    I am planning for some more family time in December / January so I'm focusing on trying to get these revisions and corrections verified before then. With them verified the stress (field) test will run its course over the holiday season. When I'm back to working on stuff in the new year I'll check the results of the field test. I have a bunch of other boards that are waiting but if I have them made then I'll just increase my workload and distraction level. I still need to resolve the System 11 CPU and WPC-89 sound board. During free time in the holiday season I'll try to work on some documentation for BOMs and population.

    1 week later
    #59 1 year ago

    I'm definitely interested in WPC test boards.

    2 weeks later
    #60 1 year ago

    Awesome stuff

    #61 1 year ago

    Just found this thread - incredible work!

    3 weeks later
    #62 1 year ago

    any chance you will sell just the unpopulated PCBs?

    2 weeks later
    #63 1 year ago

    I hope everyone had a great holiday season. I have been back at the grind but some things in life have gotten in the way. Here's a brief update with good, bad and ugly news.

    The good news is:

    - Population of a System 11 CPU revision 01 (2nd revision) board resulted in everything appearing to work on the bench without any circuit modification.

    - There is a new System 11 CPU "pass through" special solenoid saver (fuse) board for use in either the reproduction or original board system. See the right side of the System 11 CPU board picture.

    - A reproduction of the WPC-89 (type 1) coin door interface board. It remains untested at the moment. It's lower on the priority list.

    - A reproduction of the WPC-DCS and WPC-95 (type 2) coin door interface board. The connector for WPC-DCS is different from WPC-95 but aside from that the board are the same as far as circuit goes. It also supports Safe Cracker with an additional connector for a "panic button" switch (to add magic credits). It also remains untested at the moment.

    The bad news is:

    - A (new) reproduction of the System 11 sound board is not quite working. It appears to be an analog issue.

    - A board design was incorrectly fabricated by the factory and was scrapped. It didn't make the shipment so I am waiting for the next shipment.

    The ugly news is:

    - The System 11 CPU has an incorrect silkscreen so it's not ready for consumption without some form of errata.

    I still need to follow up on boards I left with a friend over the holiday season to use in machines that are operated to see what has happened to them. I did leave a revision 00 System 11 CPU board in a friend's High Speed over the holiday season and there were no complaints so I assume it has been working all that time. I want to expose all the boards to some form of extended run time before any release is considered.

    I have more boards in the pipeline and am splitting time between life, the new boards and finding problems on the current boards. It's all SLOW progress.

    boards_21.jpgboards_22.jpgboards_23.jpg
    #64 1 year ago
    Quoted from flecom:

    any chance you will sell just the unpopulated PCBs?

    I'm fairly certain this will be the case. I spend way too much time populating boards to make it worth my while. I suspect I will populate by request if need be.

    I only make small runs because I simply don't know what demand will be so the price may not be what you like.

    #65 1 year ago

    Great to hear your doing coin door interface Ive already had to source a few of these out last year...not easy to find

    #66 1 year ago

    I think there would be several people who would be happy to tackle the projects of populating their own boards. Maybe also consider including a parts list with links, and/or the bag of parts to accompany the unpopulated board.

    #67 1 year ago

    Or even a mouser / rs digikey /parts list link would be a great help then people can just buy them all in one go (if possible)

    #68 1 year ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    - WPC-89 sound board works in games that have a single EPROM in U18 or 1Mb EPROMs in U14/U15. Games that have larger EPROMs (such as 4Mb EPROMs in U14/15 = Twilight Zone) have some errors. I haven't looked at this ... yet. The board worked fine in my Gilligan's Island and Terminator 2. It tested fine on the bench with The Addams Family.

    After staring at schematics and verifying connections I figured this out. Unfortunately ... it had nothing to do with schematics and connections. I put "brand new" ICs on the board but unfortunately "brand new" does not mean "functionally correct". I even have an IC tester and the faulty IC passes the IC tester (i.e. shows correct on the tester).

    After isolating the faulty IC (pretty much by binary search using smaller groups) ... everything passes with Gilligan's Island and Twilight Zone. It now needs to start extended run testing.

    #69 1 year ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    I think there would be several people who would be happy to tackle the projects of populating their own boards. Maybe also consider including a parts list with links, and/or the bag of parts to accompany the unpopulated board.

    I could provide some of the more common parts in a single bag (I would not be interested in individually bagging items because there are plenty of ones and twos of items). I have a spreadsheet with parts and links but it's not in "human readable form" (unless you're used to reading spreadsheets).

    Quoted from russdx:

    Or even a mouser / rs digikey /parts list link would be a great help then people can just buy them all in one go (if possible)

    It's almost impossible to buy everything from one merchant. I buy from multiple merchants. It's just the nature of some of the components needed - particularly the more difficult to find ("NLA") ICs. If someone wants to put together a list on one of those merchant sites I'd take a look at it. I think it's a lot of work having built my spreadsheets and investing the time into it.

    #70 1 year ago

    Any price on the populated vs non populated?

    #71 1 year ago

    Question, can you make a small piggyback experimental style board for
    system 11 style mother board?

    #72 1 year ago
    Quoted from chad:

    Any price on the populated vs non populated?

    Which board(s)?

    I have some tentative pricing (not released) but I also only have a limited stock of these revision 0 and revision 1 boards (for the different products). These boards have some minor errata and I'm considering either populating them myself (so I don't have to subject someone to the errata) or to providing a discount on these boards (as well as providing the errata information).

    #73 1 year ago
    Quoted from vec-tor:

    Question, can you make a small piggyback experimental style board for system 11 style mother board?

    I'm sure that's possible but it depends on what it is and what it is for. I'd need more information. You can post here or PM.

    2 weeks later
    #74 1 year ago

    <verbosity=off/>

    The board will speak for itself.

    Just finished so currently untested.

    boards_24.jpgboards_25.jpg
    #75 1 year ago

    im in for a coin door interface board type 1.

    #76 1 year ago

    Beautiful work, dumbass.

    1 week later
    10
    #77 1 year ago

    Working on multiple things simultaneously. People who know me know that I'm fond of saying "I don't multitask".

    I have success with most of the System 11 boards. The CPU (revision 1), AUX (revision 1), ICT (revision 0) and display (revision 1) work together in my Rollergames. I have System 11B machines but I need to move them around to get access to test boards. I plan to use another revision 1 CPU board in a friend's operated Pinbot as well as displays. I haven't gotten around to that. The boards work well enough for me to get just shy of 47 million on Rollergames. I'm hoping to return to the sound board so that I can almost completely replace the boards with reproductions.

    The WPC-89 power driver board is handing me my ass. It mostly works. There's one problem that I'm still working through but right now I'm still a little stumped as to what's causing it. I might take a break from it because I've found in the past that if I stop looking at something I often have different ideas when I return to it.

    More updates will follow when available.

    S11_ROLLERGAMES.JPGS11_ROLLERGAMES_SCORE.JPG
    4 weeks later
    14
    #78 11 months ago

    I hope everyone has been staying safe in these trying times not seen for a century.

    Recently I was told to go back to reading repair guides after offering some technical assistance. I have decided to take that advice and have stopped providing any public technical assistance in order to go back and re-read repair guides. I know I have more to learn. While busy re-reading those repair guides I have been trying to make further progress on some other boards.

    I have a pile of boards that need populating, testing, verifying and fixing any discovered issues. It's a lot of work and you would think that with the recent changes in social situations I would have plenty of time. Unfortunately I have a medical background and the continuing coverage is absolutely fascinating to me. I do need to be careful to not overdose on the continuing coverage.

    I have also written up a (general) reference manual for the boards with the focus as an assembly guide. I am still working through (specific) user manuals for the boards. When these boards are ready I'm hoping to be able to reach out to some people who have expressed interest in either acquiring or assembling some of these boards. A word of warning that Washington state is under "stay at home" orders until early May. I am endeavoring to do a single outing per week.

    I have also been side-tracked (depending on your point of view) to lay out other boards. Two of those boards are pinball related and should arrive at their destination today. Two other boards are not pinball related (video related) and were delivered last week. One has been verified as working but needs some modifications / improvements. The other board is still under assessment.

    Here's the latest set of boards. I still have other boards I need to go back and work on and figure out. So much to do.

    1) WPC-89 CPU. This board works. There is a mis-alignment in at least one of the holes. The template I used to measure the holes is at the very edge of correct alignment and my slight measurement error put my holes beyond correct alignment. I expanded the hole (with a hand-held rotary tool) and need to test in a real machine. This board has provision for a daughter-board to support WPC-S but that doesn't work. I still need to work through that.

    2) WPC-89 DMD Controller. This board works - mostly. The logic section appears to pass all the display tests except the last test where the software reports "RAM ADDRESS ERROR". I need to figure this one out but everything else in the logic section appears to work. I think the electrical connections are good and it might be an IC. A new IC is not necessarily a good IC. I have not tested the high voltage section.

    3) WPC-89 Fliptronic. This board works. It's a simple board. I'm not surprised it works.

    4) Opto boards. As you can see I have not even populated these boards.

    Stay safe everyone!!!

    boards_26.jpgboards_27.jpg
    #79 11 months ago

    Awesome work dumbass

    2 weeks later
    #80 10 months ago

    REALLY excited about the 16 opto replacement boards you're working on! Please let us know when you are ready for orders!

    #81 10 months ago

    Very nice work!
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #82 10 months ago
    Quoted from xeneize:

    REALLY excited about the 16 opto replacement boards you're working on! Please let us know when you are ready for orders!

    Ditto! Nice work DumbAss!

    #83 10 months ago

    I haven't checked back in while so figured I would check the sys 11 progress. I would be happy to purchase an unpopulated board set and repopulate it. Whenever you have some ready to purchase I will buy at least one. If you need someone to populate and test anything, let me know as well. Would be more than happy to help out.

    #84 10 months ago

    Do not hesitate to buy one of these boards! This 16 opto board DumbAss made for me is working perfectly in my STTNG.

    49EE1A11-339A-4ABF-BEA7-27482FE136A9 (resized).jpegAC12366F-CC43-4AFC-82F7-137F43310E31 (resized).jpeg
    #85 10 months ago

    So it looks like it's a 1 : 1 remake of the original. No improvements/upgrades?

    (Not complaining, just asking/clarifying..)

    #86 10 months ago

    I’m not technically inclined, but the resistors? are raised off the board for better heat dissipation. My original got lost in the mail upon sending out for repair, and the only place to get a replacement is outside the USA...till DumbAss came to the rescue!

    #87 10 months ago
    Quoted from Coyote:

    So it looks like it's a 1 : 1 remake of the original. No improvements/upgrades?
    (Not complaining, just asking/clarifying..)

    Chips are in sockets. That's a plus.
    Improvements to this board have been attempted in the past, by Tony at GLM (who is no longer active in pinball). That didn't work out very well, IMHO. The only real improvement that might be made is to get rid of the current limiting resistors somehow, which were/are a weak part of the original board design.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #88 10 months ago
    Quoted from Xtraball:

    Do not hesitate to buy one of these boards! This 16 opto board DumbAss made for me is working perfectly in my STTNG.[quoted image][quoted image]

    How does one go about purchasing one of these?

    #89 10 months ago

    You simply email DumbAss right here on this thread.

    #90 10 months ago
    Quoted from Xtraball:

    You simply email DumbAss right here on this thread.

    Ok. I dont see his email, but I sent him a PM. Thanks

    #91 10 months ago

    That’s what I meant. I also sent him a message for you too. You’ll be happy.

    #92 10 months ago

    Thank you to everyone for all the kind words and thank you for any and all feedback. I am constantly striving to make better things and am always willing to listen to others to learn and better myself!

    Quoted from Coyote:

    So it looks like it's a 1 : 1 remake of the original. No improvements/upgrades?

    My philosophy is to get it working first. Crawl before walk before run. One of the more annoying issues is that the Williams schematics often have errors in them and if you just blindly follow the schematic without some level of thought or understanding it won't always work. I want to have something working properly so I have a solid foundation to build on before making modifications or improvements.

    I have been making some modifications or improvements to some of the other boards and they are usually done either directly on the board or through a daughter board.

    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    Chips are in sockets. That's a plus.

    Thanks. I always use a socket. I don't believe in direct soldering of ICs onto the board. The biggest reason for me is that I've bought brand new ICs (still in production) that are "bad". I do have an IC tester but differential diagnosis is much easier if you can remove the IC and replace it with a different one. When using unreliable sources to acquire NLA ICs it becomes even more important.

    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    Improvements to this board have been attempted in the past, by Tony at GLM (who is no longer active in pinball). That didn't work out very well, IMHO. The only real improvement that might be made is to get rid of the current limiting resistors somehow, which were/are a weak part of the original board design.

    I have a bunch of diagnostic boards for these opto boards I'm still working on (first set are in fabrication at the moment). If the boards work out well I would consider integrating the changes onto the reproduction boards. The 270 Ohm resistor drives the emitter at about 40mA which is fairly high for an LED. I assume Williams did this to maximize the photon output to give the receiver the maximum chance to detect the photons. I do have an idea about how to perhaps reduce this but again my principle is get it working first and then iterate to improve. One of the issues with this particular problem is that you can't change the wiring in the harness. Any solution has to work with the existing wiring in the harness.

    Generally ... the problem with feature enhancements is that the boards are often jammed to the limit and there are size / layout restrictions resulting in a challenge. I've added some features by shifting components around or removing components (such as a battery holder that takes up a large amount of board space). Add to that the fact that boards aren't super cheap to manufacture and each failure is wasted money.

    #93 10 months ago
    Quoted from DumbAss:

    The 270 Ohm resistor drives the emitter at about 40mA which is fairly high for an LED. I assume Williams did this to maximize the photon output to give the receiver the maximum chance to detect the photons. I do have an idea about how to perhaps reduce this but again my principle is get it working first and then iterate to improve. One of the issues with this particular problem is that you can't change the wiring in the harness. Any solution has to work with the existing wiring in the harness.

    New IR LEDs made in 2020 may work well with lower current than the ones made in the 90s. Could be investigated if someone replaces the LED and receiver boards at the same time.

    I guess you could V-reg it down first and then don't worry about the resistors burning off as much?

    #94 10 months ago

    I am getting myself a set of sys 11 boards. Can anyone who has repopulated one tell me which components are the hardest to find? I already have most of the transistors, caps, resistors, and several of the dip chips.
    Thanks

    #95 10 months ago

    Also, if anyone needs a MAN72A PM me. I picked up a few extra to offset shipping, and I can send you one for less than you will pay on ebay. Not trying to make money on them. I will probably keep 5, leaving 5 to disperse.

    #96 10 months ago
    Quoted from barakandl:

    I guess you could V-reg it down

    Was always curious why WMS/Midway didn't do this first, but then have to remember that 1171's didn't exist back then. Heh.

    #97 10 months ago
    Quoted from Tomass:

    I am getting myself a set of sys 11 boards. Can anyone who has repopulated one tell me which components are the hardest to find? I already have most of the transistors, caps, resistors, and several of the dip chips.
    Thanks

    Williams system 11 has custom sips. One side resistors... the other side capacitors.
    Data East mother boards had the components split apart.

    #98 10 months ago

    Their was a guy that was hand making them... expensive.

    #99 10 months ago
    Quoted from vec-tor:

    Williams system 11 has custom sips. One side resistors... the other side capacitors.
    Data East mother boards had the components split apart.

    Oh yeah, those src's. I replaced some without the capacitor end and have not had issues yet.

    #100 10 months ago
    Quoted from Coyote:

    Was always curious why WMS/Midway didn't do this first, but then have to remember that 1171's didn't exist back then. Heh.

    yeah they would have used some linear regulator. burn off heat with vreg heat sink or the resistors... resistors where probably cheaper.

    in home use 270R should be fine. put some 2oz ground pour under resistors it or cut outs for more air flow.

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