(Topic ID: 15767)

***FIXED*** !!!! Drop Targets on My Police Force intermittently working.. Help?!

By jonogo

11 years ago


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  • 24 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 years ago by MrSanRamon
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fd.display.jpg
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#1 11 years ago

After finally getting my kid his "grail" game, I've seen a problem occur. The "Drug Rat" Drop targets on the right side of the left ramp will not reset properly.

Example, Ball 1,Player 1, knocks down 2 targets of the drug rat, leaving 1 target standing. Drains ball... Ball 1, Player 2, Drug Rat Targets remain 2 down, 1 up. Knock down last remaining target for drug rat and drain. Ball 2, Player 1, ALL Targets remain down for Drug Rat, but Drug Rat is not imprisoned.

So essentially, You can only capture the drug rat on the first turn of player 1.

Another odd activity, is even after shutting the game down and back on, the targets MAY remain down.

Sometimes during play, the Drug Rat targets reset as they are supposed to, but I would say this happens only 20-30% of the time.

I've inspected the mechanics of the drop target assembly and everything moves freely. I can drop the targets manually and then reset them manually with out issue.

I have gone into the test menu and tested the coils for the drug rat and they fire everytime in the test.

Any help is appreciated, Thanks!

#2 11 years ago

Have you tested the opto switches for those drop targets? They should be in the switch test. It sounds like they either need to be cleaned or the optos themselves need to have their connections reflowed.

#3 11 years ago

The first thing I would do would be to try cleaning the whole assembly really well. They might just be all gunked up.

#4 11 years ago

The opto's are probably OK, as they work sometimes, so the reflow of solder might help.

What is probably more reasonable is that you have a broken wire, only making intermittent connection or a bad header (solder) or connector that attaches to the opto board.

Do the rest of the switches on that switch matrix work?

Robert

#5 11 years ago
Quoted from Melbourne:

Have you tested the opto switches for those drop targets?

I'm not too sure how those tests work. I went to the switch tests, but when they fire what should happen? DO I need to manually drop the targets or does the switch test do that?

Quoted from gweempose:

The first thing I would do would be to try cleaning the whole assembly really well. They might just be all gunked up.

That is an excellent Idea. What do you reccomend for the best cleaning? I plan to dig into this game this weekend as my boy will be gone. Hopefully have it working 100% before he returns

#6 11 years ago
Quoted from jonogo:

DO I need to manually drop the targets or does the switch test do that?

Yes, go to the switch edge test. when you activate any switch, you will get a sound and indication on the display that the switch activated.

Robert

#7 11 years ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

Do the rest of the switches on that switch matrix work?

Great suggestion MrRamon. I'm not sure if the rest of the switches work. Would the switch test menu help me determine this?

Sorry for being such a novice.. this will be my first attempt at electronic troubleshooting/repair.

#8 11 years ago

To test in switch test is easy, go to the switch edge test, I think. Manually reset your drop targets. Then drop them individually in the switch test to make sure they register.

#9 11 years ago

If you want to test your switch matrix, you can do that at the CPU board, you can also do a switch test, it will show you any shorted switches. By isolating the PF/switches and testing on the CPU you can test the matrix itself. I would first do the edge test and verify your optos and connections on the opto board are ok.

#10 11 years ago

Josh,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Hopefully it's resolved quickly. If it's not, I'd be happy to come by (which I plan on doing no matter what) and seeing if I can help you out.

I'm am no expert, but an intermittent problem suggests some sort of bad connection- hopefully just a solder joint.

Best of luck!

#11 11 years ago
Quoted from jonogo:

What do you recommend for the best cleaning?

Depending on how dirty it is, I use simple green (water based) then a solvent base like paint thinner, kerosene, etc, then water based cleaner again...blow off with an air hose, or dry on the sun.

Then you may want to put a really small amount of lube on the pivot points. Check the manual to see if they recommend that; probably not.

But before I take something apart, I'd try to find out what is wrong with the intermittent issue.

It may be possible to switch the 2 drop target connectors (if the harness is long enough (or with jumpers) and see how it works; that way you take the wiring out or the equation.

Something I learned long ago, don't F with something just to F with it...unless you want to fix/replace it later.

Robert

#12 11 years ago
Quoted from jonogo:

That is an excellent Idea. What do you reccomend for the best cleaning?

I generally use Novus 1 to clean stuff like this. I don't think that is what it was designed for, but it seems to work well for this purpose.

#13 11 years ago
Quoted from jonogo:

Would the switch test menu help me determine this?

Go to IPDb and download the Police Force Manual...then go to page 32.

Robert

#14 11 years ago

Ok, thank you all for the prompt replies and helpful suggestions!

I'm a bit overwhelmed by all this talk of optos and switches and edge switch tests! Without the pin in front of me at the moment, its hard for me to visualize what to do.

I'm going to wait until the weekend to tackle this.

I may try tonight after the boy goes to sleep and just poke around.. I'm going to do the edge switch first, then reread this post and hopefully decipher it more clearly with the pin in front of me

Tony, you may or may not receive an profanity-laced email this weekend... depending on how well the attempted repairs go!

Thanks again guys, you all are awesome.

#15 11 years ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

Go to IPDb and download the Police Force Manual...then go to page 32.

I've actual got an original copy of the manual, I'll check this out when I get home. Thanks!

#16 11 years ago

And I'm reading the one on ipdb now.

#17 11 years ago

When you look at your drop target assembly, you'll see a small circuit boad - that will have your 3 opto switches and the 2 connectors which go back to the CPU board. You'll see the colored wires will correspond to the row/column for those switches in your manual. I think on your machine that opto board is held in with 4 C clips, there should be some rubber grommets which help isolate the board from vibrations when the targets get hit. If those have hardened or cracked it might be a good idea to replace them with new ones.

#18 11 years ago
Quoted from jonogo:

I'm a bit overwhelmed by all this talk of optos and switches and edge switch tests! Without the pin in front of me at the moment, its hard for me to visualize what to do.

If you look at the manual now, then go home and look at the machine...with the manual in hand; you'll eventually get the hang of it.

Robert

#19 11 years ago

Drop targets aren't too bad to work with, really.

Here's what I'd do, if it were in my shop:

I'd take the whole target assy out. Should be easy as the only thing that solders in is the solenoid - the PCB with the switches should have 2 connectors, one which goes to the switch matrix, the other provides power to the drop target PCB.

Take a good look at which wire connects to the banded side of the diode, and which wire connects to the unbanded side of the diode. Taking a picture isn't a bad idea. It is important that you reconnect the wires to the correct tabs, otherwise you could fry the diode and the driving transistor.

Next, move the entire unit to a workbench or table. If it's your wife/girlfriend/significant other's kitchen table, be sure to put down a good towel or two to make sure you don't scratch anything up.

Take notes as to where everything goes in the assembly. There are E-Clips, washers, springs, etc. The order these go in is crucial, put them out of place, it just won't work right.

Take the whole works apart, and clean everything real well. I use a citrus degreaser from the local dollar stores by the case, 'LA's Totally Awesome Orange' - it's a buck for a 22 oz bottle. I buy it by the case as I said. It's good for most everything. I would use this on everything *but* the PCB!

You'll want to spray everything liberally down, and use a medium to stiff bristled brush to scrub everything. An old toothbrush will work, a brush with slightly stiffer bristles will work better. You don't want a wire brush, and a paintbrush will probably be too weak.

If you have sensitive to dry skin, you'll want a pair of gloves while you do this. The citrus degreaser has alcohol in it, and dries your hands out.

A new coil sleeve would be nice, but is not required for a drop target assembly. Well, it *is* required in my shop, but I'm picky. You can use a bottle brush, or even a paper towel or rag sprayed with the degreaser inside the sleeve and it'll clean it pretty well. I always replace them, so it's not a concern in my shop.

You could tumble all the metal bits after cleaning them, but it's not a requirement if you don't have a tumbler. All that's going to do is make them a little extra shiny.

For the PCB, rinse it in hot water, then spray both sides down with scrubbing bubbles. Yes, the bathroom cleaner, you read that right! Take a paintbrush and rub the scrubbing bubbles in. If the board isn't clean, do it again!

Rinse it well, rinse both sides with 91% alcohol or better, and let it dry. If you have an air compressor, you can dry the board that way, but I'd stay away from the optos with the compressor.

Let the board dry at least overnight. If you can, put it on a piece of cardboard and stick it out in the sun for the day. Flip it mid day. That'll get it good and dry

*then* reflow the solder points on the board where both connectors attach. Cold solder joints on these boards are not uncommon.

Reassemble and test, I bet it works a ton better afterwards.

Having said all of that..

If you don't want to go to that level of detail, that's fine. I'm sick in the head, and you may not be

Start by reflowing the connectors on the opto board, and cleaning the optos with a q-tip sprayed with windex.

#20 11 years ago

Awesome guys, thanks. This will give me a lot to attempts. With luck My son and I will be locking up that Drug Rat soon!

-j

#21 11 years ago

Hi jonogo,
I had the exact same problem with my police force when i had it (it was diamond weasel though) and it ended up being the molex connector. Check where the wires go into the connector. On mine, it appeared to be ok but when I looked closely I started tugging gently on each wire and a couple of the wires broke right off easily. I'm sure it's also possible that this could happen at the CPU board. you'll have to look at your manual for the corresponding connector. I also thought it was the opto switch but cleaning it did nothing. Good luck!

#22 11 years ago
Quoted from dbeeson:

Check where the wires go into the connector.

Tha would be my first stop.

Robert

#23 11 years ago

Ended up being this lil summabish..

Under side view..
#1 is where it was connected to the switch under here for the ramp
#2 is the shaft that goes through the PF to above the million ramp

under.switch2.jpgunder.switch2.jpg

Overside view..
#1 is the part that WAS disconnected, it attaches to the side of the millions ramp and is triggered by the ball traveling through the ramp
#2 is the shaft coming up through the PF.

million.switch.jpgmillion.switch.jpg

For some reason, having the shaft disconnected didn't really seem to affect game play for the millions ramp, but it disabled the Drug Rat sensors apparently. I don't get it really, but once I saw this, reconnected it, and bent the top connector so it wouldn't fall off again, game works 100%.

Well.. Actually, now its less than 100%.. My Jackpot display has gone mostly belly up...

fd.display.jpgfd.display.jpg

Anyone have a spare working Williams 7 Digit LED display they'd sell me?

#24 11 years ago
Quoted from jonogo:

Anyone have a spare working Williams 7 Digit LED display they'd sell me?

I think if the same segment is out on all of the displays digits, that there is an issue that can probably be fixed, w/o replacing the display.

Send me your email address and I'll send you some info on System 11 displays.

Not sure if it will solve your issue, but it might help you.

Robert

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