(Topic ID: 209975)

Dremmel for contacts

By Metropolis

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 71 posts
  • 33 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Stoomer
  • Topic is favorited by 9 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

Pinball (resized).png
Screenshot_20180220-213516 (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
29720 (resized).jpeg
Blake stepper a (resized).jpg
Clay stepper a (resized).jpg
image (resized).jpeg

Topic index (key posts)

4 key posts have been marked in this topic

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #17 Good explanation of when to use Drexel v file. Thanks Clay Posted by cfh (6 years ago)

Post #24 Part number and link to buy Posted by John_I (6 years ago)

Post #25 Part # and nice list of pros/cons Posted by NicoVolta (6 years ago)

Post #28 Why the blue arc? Posted by MarkG (6 years ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider cfh.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#10 6 years ago

I've been playing with the dremel/wire brush thing for some time now.

My conclusion is this... and i have a lot of data points to prove it too....

On coil voltage contacts, the dremel/wire brush thing is USELESS. you're just wasting your time. The reason for this is complicated. But if anyone cares i can type it all out. but that's the bottom line.

On the other hand, using the dremel/wire brush on 6 volt lamp contacts works GREAT. That's where this tool is good.

Also for Jones plug male connectors, the dremel/wire brush works great too.

#17 6 years ago

Here's the skinny on the Dremel and why it's useless for coil voltage switches...

Before i explain the why and how, here's the data points.

Latest example: Gottlieb Mibs.
Problem: It was having a problem resetting the score reels. I could see it trying, the score reels would twitch. But not getting enough pulse strength to make the reels move.

Issue: score motor switch at 1A. This is on the lowest score motor position, and it's a large contact switch. It gets pulsed many times per rotation of the score motor. Switch adjustment was good, narrow gap (as i always do.) But clearly the switch was the issue. How do i know? If i put my big fat finger on the switch contacts, forcing them together with greater pressure, the score reels would easily reset.

This is a clear case of a problem switch. It was adjusted perfectly too, but clearly the contacts are dirty or damaged. So, like i do a lot, break out the dremel with a stainsteel wire brush. Clean the contacts. Re-adjust the contacts (because the wire brush activity always changes their gap.) Restart the game. THE PROBLEM IS WORSE. The twitching is gone, now there's NOTHING.

Fix: break out an automotive gap file and file the contacts. Restart the game. Works perfectly.

Now this isn't just some one-off thing. To prove to myself that the Dremel is only good for selected items (i.e. it's generally just a waste of time), i've been experimenting with this for the last 8 or 9 months. I fix A LOT of Em's, and when i have a problem, my first reach is for the Dremel. And the bottom line is this... on coil contacts, IT'S USELESS. In every single case, it results in no change, or making the problem WORSE.

So why is this? here's where it gets complicated...

when a coil energizes, it's through some switch contact. In the above example, the score motor contact at 1A is pulsing four score reel coils, to get them to "zero". As a (30v or 50v) coil energizes, a magnetic field is created. When the power to the coil is removed, the coil collapses. When this happens, you get an EMF backflow of *twice* the energizing voltage. This is what creates though infamous "blue sparks" inside an EM game.

Note the blue sparks does not happen on light switch contacts. because that's only 6 volts, and it's really not a coil (it's a light bulb), you just don't get that. Also note this is an AC thing. On games that use DC, a coil diode can be implemented. This will stop the back flow and "blue spark" issue. But the number of EM games that use DC voltage is small (though a good deal of Williams/Bally games use DC on pop bumpers, only.)

Now that blue spark thing is important. It's a lot of energy. And the way these games are designed is that if there's a lot of current though the powering switch (either front flow or back flow.) The blue spark is so hot, it can actually deform or pit the switch contact. This is why Gottlieb used Tungsten contacts (instead of silver) on high contact switches. But it still happens, over time (and there's NO em that isn't at least 40 years old!), the coil voltage switch contact deform and wear.

No bring in the Dremel. What does it do? well basically it polishes the contact. But it doesn't fix pitting or deformed contacts. It just can't do it! It's a freaking wire brush!! That's why the dremel is USELESS on this type of switch contact. It may make you feel better, but it's accomplishing nothing beyond that. In fact, it can make things worse. It's easy to make the switch gap adjustment change, and it's also easy to knock off the nylon lifters (as used on score motors.) Basically you're creating more problems than you're solving.

So how do you actually fix the issue. A FILE. frankly i don't care what kind, but a FILE is the only solution. The pits need to be physically removed, and often, the contact re-shaped. A dremel isn't going to do that.

So now now back to light contacts. Why does the dremel work well there??
It's simple really. But let's make it a bit more informational...

In the case of a 6 volt switch, any sort of junk on that controlling switch can easily make a light not work. Look at voltage like water and a funnel. 6 volt switches are a small funnel with a small opening. any junk that falls into the funnel can easily block the output of the funnel. 30 or 50 volt switches on the other hand are larger funnels. It take more "crap" to clog the funnel output. (but when they do get clogged, you need a roto-router to fix it, not a tooth pick!)

The dremel/steel brush arrangement is really good at removing junk. It won't re-shape a contact or remove pitting, but on a light 6 volt switch contact, you don't need that. In fact, you don't want that! that's why the dremel is the ideal tool for this situation. A file can actually make switch contacts that control lights worse, because the contact points can be changed, causing additional problems.

To that point, the dremel does have other good uses. Like on Jones plugs (the male side.) It really does this well (and quick!)

Another thing... be aware that these steel brushes can be contaminated. So if you use the wire brush on say a circuit board, do not use it on an EM game! So buy a lot of brushes is what i'm saying, and don't be afraid to change them often. Otherwise you can bring contaminations from one situation, and spread them onto another game.

#22 6 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Yeah what he said.

yea that nylon lifter thing is a bitch. on Gottlieb's it's not so bad, you can buy new lifters from pinball resource. But on bally and williams EMs, the lifters are different. the hole in the blade is bigger, so you can't really use the Gottlieb lifters, the protruding nylon "tit" is too small to fit in bally or williams score motor switch blades! it sucks, because i don't have a source for bally or williams nylon lifters. this is why the dremel in bally or williams score motors is really just an accident waiting to happen...

#31 6 years ago

The dremel has its uses, but in my opinion, in the case of coil voltage contacts, it just makes people feel better and makes things *look* better. i've really been trying it in situations where i can actually prove the dremel/wheel technique makes a valuable difference. Again, in coil voltage switch, it's useless. It doesn't cut the cheese. But in the case of light voltage contacts, it's pretty damn awesome. And on male jones plugs too. light sockets it's great too. It has its uses, but it's not a silver bullet that some proclaim it to be.

We've been using it on stepper units too at the VFW. but frankly, i'm just not impressed. Almost always, after Brian goes over the steppers with the dremel, things still don't work. I almost always have to go back and use 400 grit sand paper to get things to work right. So we've just stopped using the Dremel on stepper units, because it accomplishes next to nothing, and we have to re-do the work (with more conventional tools.)

#36 6 years ago

The bottom line, and a point that you guys seem to all be missing is this. For the last 40 to 80 years all these stepper units have done nothing but reshape themselves. All the stuff was designed for five year life cycle. Stepper rivets are not made of tungsten or hardened steel. They’re fairly soft. They’ve been reshaping themselves, all by themselves, throughout their history. So to think that you could just take a Dremel and clean them is just BS. It’s just not gonna work. These things need to be sanded. Otherwise you’re just propagating the problem that they’ve created all by themselves over the last zillion years

The dremel is a good tool for some things. But for a lot of things it’s just not the proper tool. And someone that thinks that the Dremel is a magic silver for every problem it’s just either inexperienced or in denial

#56 6 years ago

Notice in the picture of me "sanding" a stepper unit, there's a dremel in the background, in its re-charge stand.

#58 6 years ago

it's pretty big, not easy to scan.

#60 6 years ago

I agree the pin wheel flavor seems easier/better to use on most switches. But yea it does shed. The penis shaped tool wears out way too fast. it works (obviously) well for lamp sockets, but we don't use it for anything else. The wheel is awesome for male Jones plug connectors too.

#65 6 years ago

it's a lot easier/quicker to use the Dremel with the wire wheel on male Jones plugs than anything else i've tried. that is one thing where this tool works really well.

#67 6 years ago

To be honest, i bought a package of dremel wire wheels on Ebay. It was like 10 wheels for $10. i've been using those. Note you really want to use a wire-less (rechargeable) dremel, and on slow speeds. And you want to wear eye protection.

#70 6 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

I typically use a welder's wire brush for Jones plugs as originally recommended by some guy in MI.

Oh believe me, that's what i use most of the time too. but if the damn thing is handy, i'll go with dremel. it is a lot more dangerous though, that wheel like to shed.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 12.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
UpKick Pinball
 
From: $ 1.00
Playfield - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
From: $ 3.00
Cabinet - Other
Space Coast Pinball
 
From: $ 33.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Rocket City Pinball
 
From: $ 12.99
Cabinet - Other
The Pinball Scientist
 

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider cfh.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dremmel-for-contacts?tu=cfh and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.