So here is my take. I really don't care about the amount of truth in Phil's statements. I don't care about Barry's supposed unscrupulous business practices (allegedly). What I care about is friction in a project. Regardless of who is right or wrong, who is lying, etc., the truth of the matter is that these things like; mysterious refunds, changing incentives, a price change, and a host of other things spell problems.

I prepaid almost the whole machine and I have asked for a refund. I am in "wait and see," mode. If I have to lose my place in line, big deal.

The whole thing just seems odd and I don't like nesting several thousand dollars in it.

We'll see how quickly I get a refund. But, as a fail-safe I have already contacted Paypal and my credit card. This is not a knee jerk reaction. This is spotting a potential shit show and not wanting to be part of it if, in fact, things go way wrong.

In all honesty, I really hope the machine gets made. I was excited about it...but $8500 can buy some good machines that already exist or are made by a company who is not literally trying to kill each other from across the world.

I own 2 LLC's and that is exactly correct. An LLC can be set up on-line in less than an hour and approval can take as little as a day. However, I don't know how that would work dealing internationally.

I am one who requested a refund. I don't like the drama when I have several thousand dollars invested. I have now been told that DP has been locked out of Phil's Paypal account and all they can do is forward requests to him. I asked if they had a central business account (which it seems obvious they would) and I was told simply that they are trying to figure something out.

So, regardless of those of you who believe in the game and those who don't...this is a shit show and a problem. How a company can take thousands of dollars for a product that does not exist and not even have a business bank account is concerning and if you have any business sense, you should be concerned too.

If you are still paying, you are not wise. I requested a refund 2 weeks ago and have not received it. Look, I am a pin collector and I own 2 businesses. I love pins as much if not more than any of you. I have $35K worth of pins. But when things in business start to go awry, that means trouble. Now I am currently out $6K and have had only a single email from Barry who says "they are trying to figure it out." I am not trying to tell you what to do, but I will tell you that business takes VERY LITTLE to fail and drama is drama. I will be more than willing to wait in line and pay for my TBL pin after it gets made. But as of now $6K in a no interest account with drama and no official launch date means trouble. Put up all the money you want...and I am going to admit that the promo machine was great. But be smart. There is a problem when money does not flow properly in a business and partners are jumping ship.

Trust me people, drama is worse than admitted failure in a business.

All that being said. If it gets made, I will lay down the 9K and pay for it. It is a great looking machine.

Oh and lastly...after 2 weeks of no refund Paypal has been notified as well as US Bank and Bank of America. I am not Fucking around. It says refunds are no questions...why am I still high and dry? Hate to be that guy...but I would caution you...

Oh and one other thing...

I love all the comments about "jumping ship," and "why do you always run away...." Let me tell you guys something. When you run a business, it is not "jumping ship," it is called smart money. I want a TBL Pin...really really really bad. I was at their VIP party in 2 cities. I know all 3 of the guys involved and I am even facebook friends with 2 of them but dollars are dollars. Buy remember money has no emotion. I don't fault someone for buying, you should not fault someone for selling...oh and especially on a product THAT HAS NEVER SEEN PRODUCTION!!!

Peace.

Dude, I have 20 pins. Who the fuck are you?

Actually, I apologize for that. I have not updated anything on this site that I did not have for sale. I sold 3 of those 4 pins for WAY more than 5K and to be honest my anger toward this whole thing made me be dick head. That is my fault.

Agreed. Apologies again...while I play my Bram Stokers Dracula, next to my Dr. Who and...drinking a beer and wishing I had a Dark Knight 2000...ahhhhh dreams to Santa

BUT I STILL WANT MY TBL MONEY BACK!!!!

Thank you PDX and it is not a matter of love for the hobby/sport...it is caution for the money. BTW, when I get that money back, my wife has signed off (which you have all said from one time or another) on 4 pins in a local bar...which are worth WAY more than 6K so...again you understand my frustration. BTW...one is Bride...one is Monster...you get the idea...

inhomearcades is exactly right. It has now been a month and I still have not received my refund. I have heard from Barry several times with a bunch of bull stating "they are trying to figure it out," and then blaming Phil. I give them till the end of this week and I file a claim with Paypal. I have already spoken with Paypal and US Bank and they have assured me that they will take care of me. I do a ton of Paypal business with my company. I use Paypal as my credit processor. On occasion I have to issue refunds. It is a simple almost immediate process. It should not take a month.

Again, for those of you who think this is not a bad sign, I caution you.

It has been 7 weeks since I first requested a refund. I have gotten the same bullshit responses everyone else has. I just emailed Barry and told him I want to money immediately. I have a very strong business relationship with Paypal and have already spoken with them. They asked me if I wanted to file a Fraud case with them which could pretty much lock DP's ability to take more money and would lock whatever funds are in the account...especially if they receive additional complaints. But again, Paypal said this may take time. If I do not hear from Barry in the next day or two I will file these charges and I will also contact my Credit Card who can at least help in getting the money back...hopefully.

Doesn't this just sound like thievery to anyone else? The apologists in the thread really surprise me. Issuing refunds is a click of a button.