(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


4 years ago

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#13 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Nothing here.
I did find it strange when I made my pre-January payment that the confirmation said I had sent it to phil@dutchpinball.com - I wonder if the email address where payment is being sent is the issue....

I noticed it was going to Phil @ dutch pinball when I made my payment as well. So I emailed Barry and he fixed the paypal account to go to sales account or something before I made my Jan payment. That was earlier this week. I didn't actually think it was going to be an issue as I assumed the phil@dutchpinball account got routed to some shared account.

Wonder if part of moving USA money around (maybe between accounts) last night and someone clicked the wrong button on paypal?

Any common denominator for you guys? Did you buy in person at expo or? I didn't get any refunds(first day order) so its not everybody

#17 4 years ago

You guys email Barry / Jaap yet?

#19 4 years ago

K. Sucks. I would think PayPal has records of all the refunds going out so not a total nightmare to reverse.

When you check your payment status on the big lebowski website, does it show your payments still or is that cleared out too

#80 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I think this paints a picture that Phil was more than just "the marketing guy". I wonder if dp usa exists anymore.

Phil doesn't live in USA either. This strikes me as Phil being disgruntled and maybe they needed to move money around but he lost patience and just started clicking the refund button. At least it looks like the refunds are acknowledged by the website so you can click retry.

BTW the PayPal account has already been updated not to go to Phil (can click on it and start the paypal process and see for yourself)

#115 4 years ago

From barry, email just showed up.. And I wasn't effected so assume it go.

Post edited by sd_tom: removed block quote of email after i thought better of it

#130 4 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Shits about to get real.

Not really.. Sounds like two frustrated parties.. One taking matters into their own hands / public spillover

#211 4 years ago

The theft part seems more like Barry was taking a salary off bop orders.. I guess I don't have a problem with this and wouldn't call it theft really. And those are shipping / close to it so OK.. Not a big deal to me.

The licensing issues being claimed as so far as they put the license in jeopardy is more concerning.

#245 4 years ago
Quoted from zsciaeount:

Wait, so what can you do if you can't use John Goodman's voice or likeness? Arguably, he's 50% of what this movie so appealing. And if this is Goodman's doing, then WTF? You'd sign your rights for the Flintstones (good game but shitty movie) but not TBL???

It says additional talent approvals.. I.e., If you want to use something out of the preapproved set then you have to go to actor. In this case, thats is Something that can be approached for other actors but not john for some reason

#304 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Why would DP make a mention about not having the rights to use kahlua when they supposedly never had the rights to using John Goodman in the game? We really need to hear the other side to this story.
Edit: I just seems odd to fret over kahlua when the supporting actor of the movie never approved.

Cause that wasn't claimed by Phil; I think what can be interpreted from what he said was the assets provided by universal for john goodman was all there was going to be.. they apparently had no relationship with him anymore so they weren't going to go to John for new approvals. They said they could go get specific approvals for new art assets for the rest of the actors.

#309 4 years ago
Quoted from bajapanda:

Because if you don't, there's a risk that this bank run, whether justified or not, can put the company and the game itself at risk. If everyone withdraws, where does the project itself end up without any backers that believe in the title and the game?

Yeah this has me a little worried but I'm in for now. I still have the last payment in April left, so I've got 7k at risk here.. not great, but this is a dream theme. I realize Phil has concerns about licensing and what happens if universal gets pissed off enough to pull the license. That's real ; the rest I'm not sure belonged out on the internet. It seems Phil wants to destroy them now.. him posting an email address to somebody at universal.. that seems too far.. I can only imagine that even if everything was 100% fine before.. a bunch of crazed pinball nerds emailing this woman would now put the license in jeopardy.. so, yeah.. Phil went too far in my opinion and seems to be wanting there to be a run on the bank now.. even though i think everything he mentioned could have been worked through eventually (and I still hope it does).

#414 4 years ago

I guess if Phil was concerned about pushing the license into "illegal" territory why did he go along with it so longm. Its a little late now after his name is on everything and he is the one at expo showing everything and his names on all the emails. And with the tirade, and posting universal contact info, it is now more likely than less likely there now will be a issue vs theoretical. So.. Yeah .. Just unprofessional.. And an attack.

#538 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Email dated March 7, from Julie at Universal to me:
Our frustration arose from their lack of understanding that The Big Lebowski assets are restricted to the approved set we have, and that while additional talent approvals are possible for most of the cast, they are just not possible for John Goodman.

I am quoting this again as people are getting carried away with the Goodman stuff; It says "Additional talent approvals" ... i.e., an expansion of what's already available. This does not mean 0% john goodman or no callouts. "Additional" people..

#576 4 years ago

Yeah not everyone got refunds, seems like just the recent orders since expo.

#585 4 years ago

Back on Oct 1st the big lebowski official
facebook page linked to polygon article with all the photos (pot leaf and all) . so, anyway maybe its right vs left hand at universal but they know its out there.

#611 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

I think it's not as nefarious as that. I don't think that is proof that Phil made a conscious decision to abandon his morals and defraud his customers. I think he has been recounting a long string of incidents where DP went too far and he still reeled them back in while working to release a legit product. His list of infractions is not a tally of everything that is currently wrong with TBL, but instead his evidence of a pattern of negligence that he has been working to to correct but is no longer willing to as he has had enough after they apparently began "lying" to get around his oversight, and just doing what they want, regardless of license restrictions. I think at Expo he was frustrated, but still thought the damage was not so bad that they couldn't still fix it. I haven't yet heard any claims about sales pitches he made at expo that he explicitly knew were not true.
I think the things we know, according to Phil are:
1) They repeatedly made designs contrary to the license restrictions, and were pissing off universal.
2) Most of those issues eventually got resolved, including the backglass, except that they continued to flaunt the restrictions by showing up in Chicago with Kahlua and Time in the game, unapproved playfield art in general, and apparently unapproved voice call-outs. Additional infractions happened at DPO, which was the last straw for Phil.
3) Phil states that all of the voice call-outs are unapproved, but that doesn't mean that some or most of them won't be. It's just another example of showing disregard for the restriction against showing unapproved assets publicly.
4) The play field is unapproved, but insider reports from Barry state that removing things like the gun, the pot leaf, the disembodied legs, kahlua etc will likely get it approved.
5) Phil also said that there was no approval for any advertising at the time that he left. It is unclear if he is saying that none of the advertising he over saw for the previous year was approved, or any advertising going forward, but I found this one to be odd. Especially because he used a Goodman voice call-out specifically in at least one of those stellar videos.
6) Phil states that all the money from BOP 2.0 was gone, and that he covered a significant portion of the overspending costs. It is unclear how much preorder money was spent, and on what.
7) It appears as though the main split happened, again according to Phil, because of Barry and Jaap no longer heeding his advice w/r/t marketing and following the licensing restrictions, and they began lying to him repeatedly.
8.) He wants no liability with a company he feels is taking huge unecessary risks with the license and people's preorder money, and his requests have been ignored. Barry claims he put the burden on Phil to find someone else to take over DP USA. Obviously Phil feels this is Barry's responsibility.
In summary, Phil raises legitimate concerns over whether DP's cavalier attitude towards the license restrictions will risk getting the license pulled. Since he appears to have been the middle man W/R/T the license, it seems even more risky to flaunt the restrictions after his exit. JJP has always been very careful not to show unapproved stuff, so that reads as a real concern. The cab artwork appears to be approved, no one is claiming the music licenses are not valid, but the call outs are in question as well as the playfield art. The only concerns with Goodman are the use of any assets or depictions outside the narrow set of assets they have approval for. This is a big concern with call outs, and his playfield image, but the backglass is done.
It's obvious that DP will have their side of Phil's role in the company and why the split occurred, but in addition to that they need to address his accusations of the money handling(especially for BOP 2.0) and the status of the license issues. Unless they verify that everything they have shown and continue to show in public have been approved, I think buyers will need further assurances that showing unapproved artwork and assets poses no risk to the license. The current state of unapproved assets could be very close to being resolved with minor fixes, similar to what Phil described he worked out in the past, but that will all be moot if they get the license pulled for repeatedly showing unapproved stuff in public while collecting preorder money for it. Also this very big, very public explosion between the principles could motivate universal to find a reason to pull the license as well. Regardless of who you put the blame on for that one, it would be very prudent for DP to make sure they follow extremely closely to the letter of the law going forward.

This is a very good / cooler head summary of my understanding and concerns as someone who is still in, and would want good answers before my final payment, and if no answers are given then (unthinkable on Friday) could conceive wanting a refund at some point.

I am considering composing something to thar effect to Barry/Jaap and I may steal some of this as content (attributed of course).

Now some yard work .. Need to get out into the warm sun I guess it was just too good to be true to avoid the "full" pinball pre order experience.

#657 4 years ago

Since you're destroying the entire company and liquidating the assets.. Where is his motivation now?

#662 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I can legally close a PayPal account with a zero balance.

So sounds like you're going to keep going till DP USA account is dry? And you said you didn't have a full customer list so are you relying on people to dispute at this point to get it to zero?

#718 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Phil what is it that you need from us then to enact full refunds???

Yeah my question to him too... If this course of action can't be dissuaded; how is he going get the balance to zero if he no longer knows whom it should go to?

#976 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Well there you have it you're right - the previous payments prior to my December 4th are logged as paid to DP USA, December 4th to DP BV - but still to Phil's email address.
Oh man.
Does this confirm the intentional opening of another account using Phil's email??

Here's my last one.. Phil isn't on there at that time.

#985 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Let's pretend Phil stayed quiet. Himself, Barry and Jaap fight it out behind closed doors. What is the difference? I'll tell you. Hard working pinheads would be uninformed and continue to make payments or signup for a preorder all the while the company is dealing with stakeholder strife that could ultimately lead to losing the licensing. I'm really scratching my head at how anyone could take Phil to task over this. I guess I'm crazy but I prefer seeing my fellow pinheads interests looked after first. Even at the expense of TBL not getting made. I hope it does. I love the game and theme; just not more than fellow pinheads getting dinged for $9,000.00.

I guess I haven't heard anything that concerns me enough to pull out EXCEPT Phil inciting a panic. License issues can be resolved, and I never expected a Boutique company could 100% make the game without using some of the deposit money to either feed themselves or buy parts (apparently Phil DID think that, and it's admirable but.. was not an expectation I had). Do you think JPOP / SkitB hasn't touched any of that money? Sheesh. It looks like what maybe 11 games worth has been spent per all the posted withdraws and stuff? That seems fine.. Does it mean they can survive a total run on the bank.. prob not.

It's kind of like Phil was worried about a lot of theoretical (license pulled, run on bank) and is now not satisfied until he makes those risks (all businesses must decide what their acceptable risks are) actually come to fruition

Anyway, Phil.. I did email Barry/Jaap that I don't want you in charge of the $4500 i estimate is in that account (first deposit was navy federal or something, and last deposit when to the new account).. asking that they indeed take the keys away. So, did my part.

#989 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Yeah, you paid five days later but yours is missing something:


dp1.jpg 22 KB

That field didn't have a "Sent To:" *shrug* was yours from the email? I was doing it off website. Ultimately it doesn't matter.. all these things are forwarded, so it can say anything there and be forwarded to someone else. They shouldn't of ever had it go to one person's name though.. seems obvious now

#1048 4 years ago

Yeah no, nobody has said even close to the above statement by Jakenjoi. Things seem out of hand now. Suggest at least temp close the thread / cooling off period?

Where is the op? Surely his question is resolved now

#1100 4 years ago
Quoted from Jakenjoi:

I don't see why you're taking this so personal. You heard it from the horse's mouth.

That's cause you misread the horses mouth. The statements indicate that Phil didn't believe TBL money should be spent on parts, BOP 2.0 shortfalls (see just above) or peoples salaries. That's why they were ponying up their own money. And I applaud the idea of keeping the deposits 100% untouched, but I wasnt expecting that as a customer of a boutique operation.

#1168 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

lol no shit, I can't seem to turn away from it. And I really should at this point, there's nothing more to be gained. I guess it's because I still hope something will work out, I want to see the game happen.

I'm very close to draining this myself.. nothing good is going to come out of this thread / Barry & Jaap won't be responding to all this crap point by point here.. they'll send out a letter to the customers. But it is hard to turn away.. Drain would fix that.

However, what keeps me from doing it so far is that I do have $4500, in theory, in the paypal account in question and the threat of RobT posting a "head in the sand".gif if he somehow found out i drained it.

#1196 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Universal stated that John Goodman can't be displayed "next to" a fire arm, that's something Mr. Goodman has demanded. The weed is something Universal asked for.

So if they swap the gun and the toilet position, everything is fine?

#1291 4 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

+5,500 for most of us
Give me f-in money back and then I'll decide if I want to stay in, right now I have some ex-owner telling me he has it in his account. Sick of this nonsense

I'd rather have this situation fixed first (Phil with keys to account) then proceed with refunding people such as yourself that want to wait and see. Continuing to encourage Phil to use that account is just muddying the waters more IMHO since he's admitted he doesn't have access customer lists, etc anymore. You can queue up a refund request to sales@ dutch pinball if you want.

#1320 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

Guy was asking for cliffnotes. Gave cliffnotes.

I was talking to whoever decided summarizing a thread on Pinside for facebook consumption. I think most of us think a good chunk of this is way into "over sharing" category.. let alone repackaging it and making it even more public.

If that was you, then my question still stands.

#1334 4 years ago
Quoted from xbloodgreenx:

I like how you think this will all go away if no one talks about it. It's out there, it's news.

That's not what I am saying; we all know it's here. Every VIP customer knows it's here. There is a lot here for people to care about (the meat), and there's a lot of BS as well, and a lot of stuff that should have been kept between business partners, and there's extra personal stuff like cancer and all that. I don't see how taking a few juicy excepts onto a page, linking back to this thread, and posting it to Facebook has value.

I just realized this deadpixel whatever has 23 likes, so maybe not as big a deal.

#1556 4 years ago

Happy to see Phil has gone quiet.. Taking that as a sign things have been worked out behind the scene finally. Still questions they need to answer but hopefully can start the work digging out of the ditch.

I don't have anything to add to the business owner/tax talk.. Lowly engineer but can appreciate thats a better conversation than the sky is falling stuff of the weekend .

#1560 4 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

Actually Phil has Cancer treatments this week. This was part of the reason he did what he did last week as he was not going to be available this week.

Well, still thinking positively.. Someone posted late yesterday they showed a new DP USA created in wyoming with Barry and jaap listed.. So movement is happening .. So after Phil wakes up from his daze maybe he'll be satisfied enough to stop with the rants.. Certainly was at the point it wasnt adding any more to the story.

2 weeks later
#2466 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Only in pinball will people significantly risk their money for a $1 "plaque" ! I love it!!!!
Instead of "achiever" it should be called the "PT Barnum"

Oh please.. Nobody is in or out based on that plaque.. Let's be real. Its just a token of appreciation for sticking it out and nothing more.

#2479 4 years ago

They probably kept to the payment timeline to get a sense of the landscape.. If the news is bad (most people out, stay out), better to know that now and start to replan around that reality and start moving forward again. Its a gamble as I suppose a small % could of been able to be convinced to stay in given another month and maybe some additional evidence that DP USA has been resolved.. But not sure thats significant? By the poll.. Phil already cost them 50% of pre orders .. And with 20% on the fence, and 30% in. Guess its really about the 20%.. Does delaying the Jan payment really move the needle on the 20%? I dunno

#2579 4 years ago
Quoted from Wamprat:

I could be wrong but I don't know of any other business that does this start up/ pre order thing before actually opening it's doors with product on the shelves/ showroom floor.

Everything on kickstarter.

But anyways I think everyone has made their decision by now so just have to see what happens. My predictions are that TBL is fine, but it slows their plans down some with having ~50% less pre orders than before, not as much cash flow to grease wheels to keep things on schedule.

#2616 4 years ago

Figuring this debacle will push them even harder to knock it out of the park to win people back.

#2711 4 years ago

They likely want all their ducks in a row before they say much else.. I.e., when they have spoken in the past they have some positive step to unveil (Roger then the CPA guy). Given the CPA guy is just on board and the fact that huge time differences exist it may be slow going. I assume by Phil's silence he is cooperating with this.. But with his cancer treatments he is also probably in and out of contact. Plus the holidays (CPA guy prob didn't really "dig in" till just this Monday). Oh and since Jaap's mom apparently passed away he may be dealing with his own estate issues as well (he being a partner with Barry as well has to sign/agree to stuff, etc)

So.. Yeah.. I would expect this resolved end of the month but not much sooner.

#2730 4 years ago

At least we are all confident they still want to make a game and, given the prototypes, are pretty close. Even if they had to really slow down due to cash flow, and do it "spooky pinball" style (vs the incubator/contract manufacturing setup they've been showing that looks a lot more like a factory).. the game exists, and can be built.. and people want it. Given the JPOP compare/contrasts.. well, it certainly could be worse.

#2744 4 years ago

No walter you're not wrong, you're just an asshole

#2764 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Btw- I also think I will be refunded at some point. As long as there is a solid plan in place from dp, I will be handing my money right back to them.

Wouldn't it be better then given your intentions that they get everything sorted and presented publically in a way that you are satisfied such that you just stay in? Better for them, better for you (save $1k between the two games). Curious if there's any circumstance that would get you into that position ?

#2808 4 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

We want to thank NBC Universal for their official approval to show our prototype of The Big LebowskiTM Pinball during this event.

I take from this that Phil is still needing to be convinced they are doing right by the license... i.e., showing the game in public even though the play-field is not finally approved. And whether they had that with the NYC show or not, they wanted to make sure Phil (and us) could see the giant ass sticker implying that this action was blessed by Universal.

The interesting point then would be; if this is the exact same art that is on the USA prototypes.. it would imply there is nothing SO offensive on that playfield to Universal that it can't be shown.. i.e., putting some perspective on and downplaying "license is at risk" doomsday scenarios.

At least its a sign of life, and if it helps Phil be more cooperative, that's good too.

#2817 4 years ago

So two sides to this though:
- point for Phil: does look like the playfield is still not final approved per his statements here

- point for DP: the License did not get pulled, in fact universal is willing to let them still show the unapproved playfield (sticker may or may not be mandatory).. I.e., license was not fucked up.. Like Roger said.. After talking with Universal himself he felt he was a band aid, not a tourniquet.

So the only thing that is all fucked up is this thread and the stir it caused which may/may not cause real issues later/currently with 50% of people wanting refunds. That seems 90% on Phils shoulders.. The rest on DP for not recognizing he was that close to popping.

#2851 4 years ago
Quoted from anubis2night:

You guys don't make a bit of sense, right now there are people who are waiting for their refunds, you can dress this up however you want but until those people concerns are addressed, namely where is their money and what is the financial situation at this point, the rest is just conjecture. throwing a sticker on a machine hasn't changed anything. Let's try and remember that some people have been waiting over a month with their money stuck in limbo without a proper response.
Those people are our community, we should be supporting them. Persoanlly I dig the game, I'd like to see it made and I'd love to play it but first id like to see these people taken care of.

Everyone wants the refunds distributed to those who want out. Frustration is just that Phil's breaking point was the unlicensed stuff being shown at NYC.. Which caused the un requested refunds which caused this thread which caused Phil to dump every bit of dirty laundry from his view which caused flood of requested refunds.

So, if we now can see in hindsight that event 1 wasn't the big deal he saw it to be, everything afterwards is fucked up situation. Imagine a world where this thread didn't exist.. But all the things that happened since did (roger Sharpe came on board, CPA was hired).. I.e., worked behind the scenes like normal businesses (this is shared DP and Phil, I realize Phil felt he was being ignored).

Would you not agree that there likely would be a ton less refunds needed at this point? That people who actually wanted a refund would get it promptly (presuming Phil was quietly worked out or was now comfortable enough to let Barry and Jaap log into PayPal account).. That people would be universally pumped for the game still like they were before this thread and that would be fine cause there wasn't anything fucked up?

Instead we have today.. Could there be a financial problem now giving back so many refunds? Its possible.. Its called a run on the bank for a reason. But yeah I don't believe "financial issues" were a cause, they are a possible effect.

Anyways, its just a shame where we are today and I know where I place most of the blame. Actually, this is a perfect example in life where nothing is fucked up originally but communication (between business partners).. But how communication is a huge deal and can lead to real issues.

Here's to some refunds being generated soon.

#2854 4 years ago
Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

Tom what do you think would have happened if Phil had not spoken up? Don't you see that they were very VERY clearly abusing the terms of their licensing agreement? To the point where they have to cover it in stickers! They're producing more stickers than games at this juncture, in fact.

I guess I don't feel like the sticker is necessarily mandated by Universal.. I see it as a PR signal... either to us or to Phil that the license is being handled carefully/kid gloves now in the aftermath. Since Phil and Barry's communications had broken down prior to the NYC show, and listening to Roger.. I leave open the door that Universal was fine with the NYC show, but Phil didn't know that cause he wasn't in communication anymore. But, I'm speculating just like everyone else... who knows. If the playfield was so far from being released or had something so offensive on it then I would expect stickers on the offending parts or the old playfields never to be shown again. Instead, we have the same exact playfield that was at the NYC show, with a single sticker on the middle of the playfield not covering up anything specifically (vs the black Kahlua bottle which IS covered up specifically) that to me, I'm satisfied they weren't ever as close to the precipice of losing the license entirely as was suggested here. i.e., repeating Roger again with his "band-aid not a tourniquet" statements on the coast 2 coast podcast.

Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

Where, in your mind, was DP heading ignoring Phil and ignoring his public request to be removed from DP? Were they on a good path? I'm just not seeing that. I appreciate your commentary on this by the way, some of the rah rah cheerleader nonsense is veering into maniacal territory a few comments above.

Right, I too get a little concerned about some of my pre-order brothers getting a little too cheerleader which invokes equal anti-cheerleader responses sometimes. But, it's pinside As far as the path they were on, clearly it was coming to a head one way or the other. DP probably being a bit too focused on getting games built and not realizing Phil was going down hill medically, which I'm sure colors his view of things (who wouldn't be changed by that) and not prioritizing his needs. So I don't know.. maybe if it wasn't the NYC show licensing concerns that pushed him over the edge, I'm not sure what would of been the tipping point.. that's fair. I personally can't imagine doing the meltdown on pinside route, so maybe that's why I attribute more blame on that side.. personality thing.

I guess, blame aside.. it's just so unfortunate that communications break down between them lead to communications meltdown here, which has lead to run on bank which may lead to more significant financial challenges now. Time will tell.

#2856 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Some of you guys have VERY selective memories...

I see all that, haven't forgotten it. I have filed a lot of it under "revisionist history" of things that he was probably ok with at the time, and then not ok with in the context of meltdown. I can also see them wanting to use the USA dollar to buy USA things to minimize currency exchange losses. I see less than $100k of stuff, which is about 12 TBL machines, so even if all of it was true it is not terribly significant in the grand scheme.

And in the pre-order game, I personally never expected the pre-order deposits to sit in escrow somewhere and be entirely separate from development costs. I wouldn't expect someone going on an meltdown accounting / dirty laundry rant of JJP, Skit-B, JPOP, or any of the other pinball start ups to not have this kind of thing going.

So, that's why it doesn't bother me as much as some.

#2967 4 years ago

Yeah there's a poll on here where 50% are out, 30% are in, and 20% are on the fence. Given the license seems in ok shape, there is not the evidence Thst the most likely scenario is total collapse.. Its on the board now after all this, but jumping straight to worst case as if it is the only possible outcome at this point is lame.

#2995 4 years ago

They responded on the 31st, so 3 weeks ago.

#3007 4 years ago

Wondering if the OP is in or out ?

#3010 4 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

FYI - The Canadian dollar vs US dollar since August.

Doesn't the fact that he paid USD$ in the past and it is currently stored as USD with Phil mean he actually gets back more Canadian than he put in with a refund? Would it be in DP rights to refund him only the Canadian $ he paid in, keeping the "profit" from the currency exchange? Lots of ins and outs.. Prob why they need a CPA just to sort out the refunds.. (I doubt Phil was worrying about keeping the books straight when he was issuing refunds)

BTW: everyone should get refunds, just wondering why the Canadian dollar was tossed in there.

#3012 4 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

aeonblack is from Canada, which is why I referenced the CAD. Who knows where and how his money is being tied up at this point, but I get and understand where his anxiety is coming from.
$8,500 USD on 1/20/14 = $9,313 CAD
$8,500 USD on 1/20/15 = $10,171 CAD
The decline of the Euro should (hopefully) push DP to get this machine out ASAP.

Right that's if he pays anymore from here on... But since pre orders were taken between Dec 2013 to October of this year.. If stored in USD someone actually wins if he pulls his money out.. Either him (refunded 10k CAD ) or DP if they pay him in CAD value at the time of each deposit. The latter seems a huge pain in the ass. Anyways, its more interesting to think about exchange rates and how they play in all this than the other kinds of speculation personally.

1 week later
#3064 4 years ago

It's a complicated case, maude. A lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of what-have-yous, a lot of strands to keep in my head, man.

#3102 4 years ago


Plungemaster, please let it go... Saying that with love as someone still in, and still excited about the game but doesn't feel the need to provoke those that feel differently.. Its justified.

DP plays by the "No news until Good news" playbook for better or worse.. See lack of communication on BOP2.0 (yet, games are arriving on people's doorsteps as we speak). In contrast go look at MMR threads where Rick tries to stay engaged but is torn apart on every word. Just different strategies... A strategy that prob sucks for this cluster of a situation for those wanting refunds.

#3105 4 years ago


For those that missed it as it was released within a few days of this shit show.. PAPA video of the game:

If you want to vent at someone and getting tired of doing it here, bitch at the two guys that posted comments to the PAPA video that they disliked using licensed songs! WTF

#3109 4 years ago
Quoted from HENSBROOKER:

@sd_tom :
Those guys who comment the use of songs in pinball have indeed a GOOD point. It really had my approval if DP would integrated such idea on TBL!
And BTW... They clearly do NOT comment on the fact licensed songs are used as you suggest! But just the way how...

So what you're saying then is that you're one of the two posters . They suggested there should be some 8bit midi file until the real song is unlocked.. I think thats ridiculous. Its not like your sitting their paying attention to the music the whole time.. You're playing pinball.. The music is a key backdrop of the movie.. Some midi "jingle" interpretation of the music, especially if the real songs are available is silly. They've indicated the game will be a progression through the movie.. So its not like songs will be available at all times.. So not even like ACDC where you pick.. Plus whenever I walk up to an ACDC the music instantly puts a smile on my face and better mood. Does anyone hate playing their acdc cause the music is repetitive?

I would be surprised if those two guys even get/enjoy the theme.

#3111 4 years ago

Fair enough, I guess so what do you do? Not have games with songs? Have acoustic only versions? Would think TBL has a couple things going for it to help here (without inventing some scheme to hide the licensed songs like the papa commenter suggested)

List of songs:

1) the music is all across the board in style (so not overly monotonous).. Realizing the code is alpha here so may be using the same song too much since the modes that would be associated with a lot of songs are missing

2) from expo talk (by Phil) you progress through scenes of the movie.. I.e., the music may be progressive in that you're going to hear new stuff as you get to it.. Vs acdc.. All songs are available cause the modes are all available.

3) some of even the licensed songs are non vocal plus there's room for filler music (bop2.0 has non licensed tracks that seem cool), plus one of the DP guys on their website is an audio guy.

4) its beaglebone and proc based.. If sharp guys can build a pinball browser for stern, me thinks you can probably ruin your TBL with poor music choices on your own

I guess I had a strong reaction to the papa comments in the 'let's hide the songs with crappy versions you have to earn" - some of us are not pinball gods I want my game to boot up, play tumbling tumbleweeds dammit!

#3123 4 years ago

There has been at least some private communication, just not public announcements. They just want to have 100% everything sorted out so theres no more funny stuff going forward.

Maybe that approach is getting old, fair enough but it is what it is. I'm sure nobody wants this monkey off their back sooner than DP.

#3125 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

They may want this off thier back, but they are the ones that put themselves in the current situation.

No doubt.

#3154 4 years ago

I got an authentic Folger's can of the right era. I don't know what to do with it exactly other put it on top as a topper.

It was hard to find the right can from the movie as they have all been plastic now for years. I found a guy on eBay selling Folgers cans and found the right one for $12, $8 shipping.. Yeah I paid $20 for an empty can of coffee. Its sorta nuts though what is out there in this world of ours to purchase . The only thing that is off is that in the movie the lid is blue, yet don't think Folger's lids were ever blue.

#3159 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

eBay here I come!! So why did you buy this if you weren't planning to use it as a topper for this game?

I bought it to make a photo for the DP Facebook contest to win a pre-production playfield*.

With the idea of putting it on top of the machine; which I will do. Anything more like making it light up or blow donny's ashes all over people while playing would just be a bonus

* Given this shitstorm I'm sure all pre-production playfields will be required to be burned in a fire, placed into coffee cans and committed to the bosom of the Pacific Ocean

#3165 4 years ago

Good catch! Yeah I can't find any stars lit up stuff.. Just the building lights.

#3167 4 years ago

That would be sweet. They still could be lit in the final I guess as well but If not, definitely something to look into

#3171 4 years ago

I've been contacted by a couple people today about Folger's cans. You are looking for a 39oz can. These were phased out for plastic in 2003... so you're not going to find one easily unfortunately. However, there seems to be a market for them on Ebay.. however as of today, there's none of the right style.

The guy I bought mine from in July does have one for sale currently, but it's breakfast blend and is only 34.5 oz so wholly inadequate as a modest receptical.

ebay.com link » Folgers Coffee Tin Breakfast Blend 34 5 Oz Paper Wrapped

#3172 4 years ago

Sleep tight everyone hopefully some New shit will come to light tomorrow

#3187 4 years ago

I would guess 10pm their time (so 1pm PST? 4pm EST) is prob your cut off time if its not coming today.

#3189 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Heard from a reliable source that New Shit news letter should be out this Friday at some point.

This is where rumor started for me. If he's wrong, yes its a disservice to DP to be setting expectations of them when they have enough PR problems at the moment.

#3203 4 years ago

Ah so it looks like that the last delay is that PayPal froze the account until shit is sorted.

New thread time?

#3223 4 years ago

Ok it took me a second to get the nihilist faces.. I thought I they all had masks on (which they never did in movie) .. And then I realized clear inserts I guess that's ok, I would of preferred real faces but like the pinhead girl (hand drawn).

#3237 4 years ago

The white paper appears to be Larry's homework

#3240 4 years ago

Yeah I think people are imagining the people's faces being different? The rendering we have today is from solid works or something vs real game has inserts behind / back lit that I think change the visual?

#3241 4 years ago

There absolutely needs to be a mode that reveals the jackie treehorn doodle as you progress or something.

#3268 4 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

No mention of whether the cabinet art and backglass were approved or needed change?

Go back a page or two

#3271 4 years ago

Red inserts at bottom look about the same. Didn't those get washed out a bit to those that played it at expo when lit?

#3283 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

They won't miss me on a personal level, no, as I've never met any of them. But, I'm sure they are going to miss my money. If they don't, then that's all the more reason for me to get out, because they clearly don't value me as a customer.

You come off as one of those customers nobody wants to have though.. Like my mother in law that freaks out at a pizza joint cause the food takes too long to come out and demands the entire dinner be comped from the manager.

Shit happens.. You have no idea what hoops they have had to jump through to get to this point. If you were just complaining about the communication you wouldn't be getting all the thumbs down/ that's a fair criticism

#3288 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

To be honest, at this point I would get a refund even if they said to me "your game is ready". I'm done with their bullshit. Any company that treats customers in this manner doesn't deserve my business. If I ask for a refund don't tell me "we're looking into it" or "we're sorting it out" or any other cop out bullshit answer; just give me a refund. I don't care if they have to take that money from their kids college fund or suck dicks in an alley to get me money, just get it. I don't care where the money comes from, as long as it goes to me. Right on the order page it says "deposits are fully refundable". If they don't plan to abide by that rule when going into business, then don't put it right on the order page. When you go into business YOU take the risk, and if you're passing the buck on that down to your customers to cover your own ass, I'll spend my money elsewhere.

This is the attitude that told me all I need to know about you.

Also its called an analogy for a reason.. jesus

#3289 4 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

He's not asking for a free machine

Sorry I didn't spell it out. Its an attitude.. Its the "I don't give a shit about your problems as long as I get mine.. That's what I was getting at.

#3293 4 years ago

Yes whatever hope you and everyone else gets refunds! I don't take any issue with that or complaining about the communication. All valid.

#3302 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

Absolutely. Good news, bad news, no news....whatever, just give me updates. I might have even stayed onboard if Barry could have done a simple gesture of dropping in here once every few days, or once a week, to keep us updated and answer questions and concerns. The concerns some of us have are concerns that affect all of us, not just those seeking refunds.

Yeah.. I guess burningman might serve that role now, so positive step. Better anyway due to timezones.

#3314 4 years ago
Quoted from ozno:

I can smell the DP BS a mile away. Everything might work out or they will screw the USA customers and make the machine anyway. Nobody knows. I do know that they made sure that they secured the licenses first.

You felt the need to repeat yourself why? You actually think they would make the game but just like steal all the DPUSA funds? Really?

#3320 4 years ago

Umm.. That's interesting

#3323 4 years ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

I was going to mention this as well: even before the crisis when Phil was still a member of the team, they didn't communicate via Pinside. I received the occasional PM but they never posted to the forum itself. I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, only that their level of communication has been consistent throughout.

And through bop2.0 delays.. I will say wrong but consistent IMHO

#3326 4 years ago

I feel with bop2.0 they were pretty bad.. Where no particular reason has ever been mentioned.

In this case , I have no idea the tightrope they were/are walking with Phil,IRS,Paypal, Universal so its harder to judge what more the could of said.

Anyways a good day, I'll shut up . Hopefully the PayPal freeze is sorted soon.

#3349 4 years ago

since i brought up the question earlier, and was mistaken.. it does look like they've improved the keyline text in the bottom inserts. I remember, when lit, those red inserts would totally wash out the text.


oh and the left one now went from "It's Zero" to "Mark it Zero" .. must of rethought that / looks duplicated with the let's go bowling saucer (I think it's a saucer right?)

1 week later
#3397 4 years ago

glad to see refunds moving now.. Can get back to cool updates and excitement over this game

There's still prob some hard work to be done by the CPA to straighten out who's paid up / who wants refund, and all the in betweens(people who didn't pay Jan payment or got auto refunded and have held the money but want back in,etc). Hopefully there's some about that in the next update to finally close this chapter.

Cool things they could do in the updates from here on out:
- maybe release a full game flyer ?
- software.. Maybe some teaser vids of some of the real modes (sounds, call outs, etc all going)
- pics of production prototypes
- pics of my game on the line

#3414 4 years ago

I'm sure they will clarify their position on all the Grey areas of pre-ordership that the auto refunds caused here after they get the "I want a refund now" crowd taken care of.

The only thing they have committed to, and its a very small thing is the little achievers:

Special "Achiever Edition"
For you VIPs who stayed with us* we have a special surprise. You will receive your machine with a special and numbered "Achiever Edition" plaque including a 'Certificate of Authenticity' to thank you for your continuous support.* We know some of you have had an unrequested refund. If you have received an unrequested refund, but still want to own this special "Achiever Edition", please go in your payment status page and click on 'retry' to make the payments again to our new account.

So left open is what about the other pre order items (rug, chrome). I'd be happy with the people that are still holding the money / didn't reapply / didn't pay Jan : they announce a final call for payment to get back to where you should be, you lost place in line (so after all the little achievers), but you keep chrome and rug if you pay up by that date.. And we all move fwd.

#3426 4 years ago
Quoted from vex:

i am one of the unrequested refunded people. i would consider getting back in provided i get the same deal that i signed up for, meaning i get the rug, chrome and original price. i have no problem going to the back of the line allowing the strong hands to get theirs first.

And that is fine with me as a nonrefunded, still in,paid Jan on time pre-orderer (a NRSIPOT if you will )

#3431 4 years ago

Seems like people are generally ok with the following. Agree, it's not up to us to decide but maybe if we were mostly in consensus they would just roll with it:

Ask-For Refunders:
- Get your refund

Auto-Refunders who haven't bought back in
- Some date here in the near future where you must be back in, paid up per whatever schedule you were on
- Keep Chrome
- Keep Rug
- No Achiever edition (Which is literally a small plaque and a certificate.. big whoop)
- Achiever Additions are ahead of you / lost spot a bit

Ask-For Refunders, who still want game
- Personally I think they could handle it the same as the Auto-Refunders? Maybe some want to be a little harsher than that.. but i don't feel that way really.
- It would be better for everyone if this group (maybe nobody ?) just paid up vs going through the whole refund just to put the money back.

So process could go something like
- People in, are In
- People that were in, but are not in, must be back In by XX/YY/2015
- If you want to reconfirm refund is really want you want, send a fresh request and they'll be handled ASAP.
- After XX/YY/2015 passes, anyone not paid up is out, refund generated

#3435 4 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

This should be April 1st, 2015 (based on the website).

That's final payment.. I mean catch up payment. People may need to be back in before that so they can get a sense of what the initial production run looks like.

#3452 4 years ago

The only thing that ticks people off is the ones that poured gasoline onto the problem with their crazy hypotheticals and vitriol. To think that some of those still want the game, and still even expect their place in line is aggravating. But, it's DPs business. They will do what feels right to them.

Personally yeah.. keep price, rug, chrome but at minimum go after the achiever edition. There's prob not even that many of them so its not a huge penalty.

But happy to be having this debate vs the previous one! glad things are looking positive.

#3478 4 years ago

Inhomearcades : youve said you got some of your money back. Care to elaborate why not all? Is it still coming or is it cause you're keeping one of the two games ordered or PayPal fees or?

#3487 4 years ago

Dont get walking away from $5k cause wire transfer is too painful? I've had to do it when booking trips in carribean and such when the place doesn't take credit card.

Quoted from inhomearcades:

I received no communication from barry so I don't know what the status is. I logged into paypal and just saw some money in there and had to figure out where it came from myself. It is not the full amount I paid into DP so I don't know what the status of anything is.

Interesting you get partial PayPal and other are getting wire transfer.. Maybe your paypal refund was some kind of odd ball thing

#3529 4 years ago

Yeah, it seems a bit Draconian.. it's their business though, they may take all this stuff a lot more personally than people think.. it is a small business after all with a lot of blood,sweat, and tears (this thread is the tears).

I do know of a auto-refunder that hadn't paid his money back yet, that was offered a path to get back in good standing this week with catch up payments. But, he's also not here in this thread shooting his mouth off.

Quoted from ozno:

I requested a refund and planned to refuse it once they offered it. It was a test

I have to admit, if I saw something like this, and it was my business.. sure, I might be a little ticked off as well.

#3535 4 years ago

I hear ya Aurich.. I told everyone my thoughts in high detail:

which included letting the ask-for-refund guys back in. I personally would do what you suggest. Just saying it's their prerogative and can at least put myself in their shoes a bit on the sentiment of people who are just trying to "test" them with refund/return. I would put that aside though, like you.

At least we know they don't need the money; that was the biggest concern right?

#3569 4 years ago

All I know is the forced to take a refund group should keep their plight out of the other pre-order threads

#3575 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

i wish i could just say "no, you are a pita, go away"...

you can, there are consequences (bad PR), but you can. Some of this may be USA vs rest of world.. "Customer is Always Right" may be more ingrained in us than other places. There are such a thing as bad customers , it's a fact. And not accusing people here necessarily. And in this case, the people asked for a refund.. so it's not like they flat out refused service outright*

*Reminder: I still think they should of worked out a "Back in by March 1" plan like they did for the autorefunders; not outright defending what went down.; just that it's their business to run like they want.

#3583 4 years ago
Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

I don't think anyone cares anymore, but for the record Barry did reach out and let me know that he miscommunicated inadvertently, and that I was still welcome to buy the game should I care to. Which...I don't care to. But he's laid off the no soup thing.

You wanted a refund prior to the whole mess anyway right? I never felt you were complaining about wanting a game only that you wanted a refund.

#3599 4 years ago

Wondering how easy mods are gonna be? Like with proc and python and all that would it be easy to write sort of a plugin function where they could allow you to subscribe to a game event to launch a spinning Uzi only for "ringer" mode

#3605 4 years ago

Wtf is your problem.. I can find posts over a year old where you hate the whole idea of this machine. And for some reason feel need to repeat yourself over and over.

#3619 4 years ago

I do think the contract manufacturing changes the game some from JPop, Skitb, JJP, Heighway etc. Like with MMR ; they will need to have all their parts loaded, people trained,etc.. Maybe make a couple production prototype, then it will go flat out until the initial run is done. The contract manufacturer will then move on to their next customer. So also like with MMR, there may be unexpected delays getting started but at least not some slow trickle of games for a year like WOZ either.

#3621 4 years ago

I'm not sure I could contain my smugness if TBL ships before TH. It is terribly unlikely, i admit, but given some of the trolling lately here .. Man that would be awesome

#3625 4 years ago

And to me, all that footwork you have to do for CM ahead of getting a single unit produced is a good thing for a new business. It forces you to have your shit together before you start vs .. whatever happened with WOZ.

Not that this won't have it's own sources of delays like you say.. but I would argue the grand sum of delays will be shorter than hobbling along without a clue what you don't even know yet till it bites you later... that's more I think the problem with the other boutiques that are having huge, unending delays.. they really didn't treat the manufacturing end seriously (which, is just as hard/harder than getting a flipping whitewood)

#3672 4 years ago

maybe all this cool stuff could move to the other threads.. I feel that this thread being the primary TBL thread sorta is a downer (plus off topic for any remaining refund issues) am i wrong?

Can pick from many others here:

or start your own!

#3681 4 years ago

You may want to remove the link to your personal game pre ordee account , unless you're trying to get someone to pay your last payment for you

#3699 4 years ago

Or the op asks to close it to force move of topics

#3703 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

mikeincali already did a severed toe mod, and people were grossed out by it. I'll pass.


#3722 4 years ago

#3724 4 years ago

Suggested off ramp for aurich's fat one and penis spinner.

Only a suggestion

#3752 4 years ago

We understand that some of you waited with submitting the last payment because of the commotion. Now that we've straightened everything out, there’s no reason to stay behind anymore. We will give you some time for this, so if you want to stay in line, please make sure your payments are up to schedule before March 1, 2015. We hope this gives you time enough to secure your spot in line.

So.. Its march 1; people are in or out on the pre order, refunds have been issued. Thread resolved?

#3760 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

I don't think so. If you look at some of his recent posts, it seems pretty clear that he doesn't like this particular thread and he wants it closed.

First, who "likes" this thread.. ??? If you do, you like watching car accidents so i personally suggest you stick to the predator or jpop threads as those fires are still burning.

Re: quotes: I think this is a poor thread to be the TBL "primary" thread, that's all I'm saying.. trying to nudge sure Especially since a good number of people have it drained so talking about cool mods and stuff for the game probably should go some where else.

My comment this morning was only to mark that the entire thread has come to a logical conclusion.. (or if someone still feels unresolved, prompt them to speak up). If people still want to chat about stuff here, so be it I guess..

#3779 4 years ago

Maybe someone skipped a few pages where the playfield was finally approved. Seriously it's like some people .. They show up to a thread ready to make their comment before they read anything in the last 20 pages they happened to miss, as it couldn't possibly change their comment right?


They raised price way back in October / day after expo to 9k, no goodies. They just announced goodies could be bought for $500 for further pre orders. So that's $9500.. (And optional) So the additional $500 to make it $1500 I guess is imaginary price increase in his head or he's paying in some other currency.

They can do what they want with future prices anyway, supply and demand. Wonder when pre order period ends; April or when things start shipping (I guess that could also be April but I sorta doubt things are going to go that smoothly)

#3780 4 years ago


#3816 4 years ago
Quoted from LITZ:

I bet he requires hair samples instead.

Also, let's not forget - let's not forget, Dude -that keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know, within the city - that aint legal either.

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