(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


5 years ago

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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Xerico
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#1071 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

What would you do, if you went into a legitimate business with your friends, investing about $100'000, and a year's worth of (pretty darned good) free labor. You then found out they were doing something illegal. You try to talk them out of it, but they keep doing it. You scream, stop, but they keep doing it. You say fine, I quit, keep the profits, keep the money, just please take my name off the business so I don't get in trouble if you get caught. They don't.

I would've contacted a lawyer and proceeded with legal action.

Sending out unauthorized refunds, and posting internal grievances on Pinside is childish and unprofessional.

Your actions appear more like a disgruntled employee trying to sabotage the company and create havoc.

DP failed to handle your termination correctly. DP is correct not to respond to your shitstorm here. Communication should be done directly to those involved.

#1103 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Today he finally writes back, "Please stop posting on Pinside. You are harming the business (which includes yourself).

You should listen to him on this point.

Handle your problems professionally.

#1383 5 years ago
Quoted from edmorex:

I could care less about the accusations. That is not why I want my money back. I want my money back because it apparently is being held by a partner of DP that wants nothing to do with the company. He has made it clear he wants to liquidate the account. There isn't going to be enough money to go around once you subtract out all the transaction fees from moving this money around.

If he is going to empty the bag I want the money, and not the empty bag.

This is exactly what Phil was hoping would be the result of his unauthorized refunds. He wanted to deliberately hurt DP.

Unless he's completely ignorant, it's obvious to see how his refund debacle would cause a problem, rather than solve one.

#1402 5 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

He had every right to refund the money he was responsible for if he couldn't guarantee its security. People who he sent refunds should be thankful.

The deposits were never guaranteed, and he could never guarantee the money's security. His actions hurt DP more than providing any attempt to protect those with deposits. He has created panic among the preorders.

Quoted from YKpinballer:

He also knew that starting the refund process would force them to address the issues. They kept him in charge of DP US, he told them what he was going to do, he carried it through. Had they managed their business, the refunds wouldn't have happened.

I agree with you that DP failed to handle his termination correctly. But Phil chose not to address the issues in a professional manner, instead choosing to create chaos for the company.

Quoted from YKpinballer:

In Phil's mind he was protecting himself, his family and the customers. He did it at great personal cost

He may have been protecting himself and his family, but he created more conflict with his actions. He acted in a manner that would cause the DP to suffer, and potentially hurt buyers with preorder money on the line. He wanted out, and considered his money lost. His actions exacerbated the risk to all the preorders.

I think the remaining DP partners have responded in a professional manner simply by refraining from this thread.

#1681 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Well, to be blunt, oh f**king well. Because if they'd just taken care of business right they wouldn't be doing damage control.

Not true. DP wouldn't be doing damage control if Phil hadn't deliberately acted to cause damage and hurt them.

We are not informed to the extent DP was working to resolve Phil's concerns.

#1692 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Dude Phil couldn't have even touched the money if they'd handled business.

I understand that. DP was wrong to not cut him off. They may have mistakenly thought Phil was still a friend.

But Phil's actions were meant to deliberately cause damage to DP.

#1765 5 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

I think my argument still stands, unless you believe a) Phil is out and out lying about everything AND b) fabricating the evidence.

1) We know Phil quit very publicly Nov. 1.
2) We know, thanks to the screenshot of the email, that Barry on Dec. 4 suggested he STILL maintain the funds and operations of DP-USA though the production of the games (while they continue to funnel pre-order money to the DP-USA account until Feb 1. 2015) Despite very publicly quitting Nov. 1. (That is the only evidence we have of Barry working towards a "solution".)
3) We know that, at least until yesterday, Phil was STILL in charge of DP-USA and all the DP-USA money.
4) We know that Phil very much wanted to get out.

Even if you think the rest of it is lies or exaggeration, unless you believe he fabricated the dec. 4 email, we KNOW that Barry's idea of resolving a situation with a partner who quit over a month earlier was to tell him "no, stay on until it's done, because we outvote you".

If you believe he fabricated the dec. 4 email, then I'm not sure any evidence would sway you.

I might, however, be able to sell you a very special "Go Team DP" custom rug from http://www.customlogorugstore.com but you'd have to pay upfront.

Is it possible that the information you have is philtered?

There may be relevant information from the other side that hasn't been shared with you.

#1913 5 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

Is anyone else nonplussed that DP's most-recent email laid all the blame for this on Phil?

I was hoping for more leadership along the lines of "We screwed up. We're sorry. We're going to make it right."

Instead they said "Phil screwed us. We're going to make it right, if he cooperates."

It's clear Phil deliberately did try to screw them, but they never said it.

They didn't need to - it was obvious.

#1923 5 years ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

can someone please tell me, on what page of this novel is the DP response on?

They are too professional to respond to this Pinside shitstorm.

#1944 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

If they took ownership of the situation, I'd have a refund already. They basically just said "Sorry but Phil has to give you a refund"...which means my money is in limbo whether I get a refund OR stay involved.

The only accurate part is that your money is in limbo right now, but that has always been the case the moment you sent it in.

I believe DP is taking ownership, and working to make things right. Defining taking ownership as having your refund already is very narrow.

It's clearly more problematic when a partner goes rogue.

#2107 5 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

Phil acted like kind of a jack-wagon here, but it really has to land at the feet of the other two partners who didn't act when Phil requested they act. That's the first and underlying issue.

The first and underlying issue was Phil's behavior, deliberately creating panic, causing a run on refunds. The way he chose to handle his dilemma was unnecessarily adversarial to the company.

Operations are now disrupted. Many of the pre-order folks did not seem to know that their money was ever at risk. The more money returned, the weaker DP becomes to pay for continued operations.

Phil wanted out at all costs, and the future success of DP didn't factor into his equation. His unauthorized decision to refund is the single cause of the hysteria demanding refunds that may kill the game. He had other ways to handle it.

However, I think DP is doing what they can to the best of their ability, but who knows if it will be enough. There might not be enough cash. I still believe they are motivated and driven to succeed. Unfortunately, they are learning about running a business the hard way.

Post edited by RTS: removed unnecessary name-calling.

#2134 5 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

You can make that completely valid argument about Phil's actions, but you are completely discounting the actions by DP-BV and Barry in particular that people are having the most trouble with.

Regardless of how it came to light or who is at fault for this public fight, it is obvious that DP had/has a completely amateur-hour accounting set up that has lead to a complete inability to respond to customer inquiries about their money. Again, I have a friend who paid with a check and asked for a refund way before any of this began, and they have never been able to give her a straight answer.

Regardless of who's fault it is, DP is having a lot of customers asking them to make good on their promise that they can get a refund at any time. Dp is understandably in a difficult situation where they do not currently have access to a good chunk of their funds (and haven't had access to those funds for about a month.) Rather than take responsibility for the situation, they passed the buck. They could have said, "We are doing everything we can right now to re-secure the funds and will refund those who request as soon as possible" (even if that meant refunding from their other account until access to the DP-USA account was restored). Instead they said "Don't blame us, blame the other guy. Ask him for your money". they took something that is THEIR problem and made it the CUSTOMER/CREDITORS problem. That's the kind of shit you pull when you are filing for Bankruptcy, not when you are trying to get those same customers to trust you with their money all over again.

Regardless of how ethical you think the release of information is, there was enough actual evidence presented in this thread to reveal that DP-BV used EXTREMELY poor judgement in handling Phil's quitting. He quit very publicly Nov. 1, and as late as a month after the fact, on Dec. 4, they were still insisting that this disgruntled ex-partner stay in control of all of the US funds.

There is no need for conspiracy theories. You don't need to put forth wild speculation. Look at the facts we know, in addition to their only existing track record with the 4 year long BOP 2.0 project, and it is not unreasonable to have zero faith in this company's competency with the business side of things.

NO ONE is saying they did not accomplish something incredible with their prototypes, but the Dutch Defender Squad is holding their design skill and intense motivation up as evidence that they will be competent at running the business and taking the game through production. What a lot of us are saying is that we have solid evidence that, regardless of their obvious design and marketing competence, they clearly don't know what they are doing with the business side of things, and at the very least made a huge blunder with how they address the refund situation. You can legitimately think Phil is full of shit and his actions horrible and still come to this conclusion.

You have valid reasons for looking at everything and still having faith in them. They definitely made a proof of concept that people want, and perhaps that will outweigh everything else in the end. But people have equally valid reasons, created entirely by DP themselves with no need for additional speculation, to conclude that they have blown all of their credibility as a company.

I agree with you. I see two distinct issues.

Phil created deliberate mayhem to hurt DP.

DP failed to handle business operations correctly and are not doing well in appeasing customers right now.

Quoted from RobT:

I think if he was dead set on causing as much damage as possible, there are worse things that he could have done than give people their money back.

The unrequested refunds weren't intended to help those content with their pre-orders, although he may have hoped it would be seen that way. It's clear such an unauthorized action would create a problem.

1 week later
#2372 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Major point being missed. They have a game that is easy to sell. Even the worst case at this point just means slower production.

Without any cash, worst case will mean non-existent production.

#2378 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

So folks really thought the money was just sitting there vs paying bills and ordering parts etc.

I doubt folks thought money was just sitting there vs paying the bills. But I also doubt folks thought they would need to refund hordes of people at once.

Quoted from Hwawonyu:

We all just need Phils shit cleaned up and to move forward.

Amen to that.

#2470 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Only in pinball will people significantly risk their money for a $1 "plaque" ! I love it!!!!

Instead of "achiever" it should be called the "PT Barnum"

You are so wrong and completely out of line.

They will also do it for a special carpet and chrome trim.

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