got my unrequested refund too
This topic is closed.
Purchased via internet/dp's website on what happened to be last day of expo. But not purchased AT expo.
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:
or any of those other crazy ideas that couldn't come from "just a marketing guy"
All I want is out. When I was in DP, I didn't have the strength to argue the legal and ethical way to do business, and now, I certainly don't have the strength to fight to get out of it. Cancer's a cruel bitch, right?
I'm sorry you are fighting cancer. I hope you do well and beat it.
Quoted from RobT:
Dead as a doornail.
I'm sure there will still be people willing to go forward in spite of the risk of doing so, but clearly it is becoming more obvious to more people (see many other current threads on Pinside) just how much risk is involved in pre-orders, and fewer and fewer people are going to be willing to support this kind of risk taking.
I'm not defending the preorder model, but there's a difference when an established Stern does it versus an upstart that has a bunch of newcomers with NO previous pin production experience.
Heck, there's even a difference from when JJP had done it in as much as they had people on board previously established in the industry though they hadn't produced a pin as a team prior to woz.
As much as I want to maintain my preorder, I cannot. If TBL gets made and it looks great, then I'll buy. But too much uncertainty on this one has spooked me. Also, I preordered after seeing the brilliant prototypes.
And they are brilliant.
But I thought that the licensing was largely worked out at that point. Sadly, I have my doubts. So who knows how much of the music, imagery, and quotes are going to be in the final product? It might be downright unrecognizable by the time licensing issues are put to bed, if they ever are.
I really wish everyone involved in this drama success. I want DP to succeed and get the licensing bulletproof secure. I want Phil to be relieved of all pressure in the matter and to get healthy again. I want my fellow pinsiders to either get fully refunded or get a pin consistent with what they thought they were preordering.
But the heat is too hot for me and I'm getting out of the kitchen. I'd RATHER stay and have the pin that we've all seen at expo, but I don't know if that's going to happen. Please, please, please, prove me wrong, DP!
Quoted from iceman44:
Here is what I would do.
Let's negotiate a promissory note with DP for all the $$$ you have invested into the project, payable out over a reasonable amount of time. You get paid back if they succeed.
Some of it might be sunk cost but hey, anything is better than nothing.
The best outcome for you and everybody is that DP is successful.
Sheesh, ice. A nice lawyer? You're blowing my mind, man!
Seriously, you're a class act.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:
I know Phil is going thru some stuff and probably isn't thinking long-term...but will anybody ever hire him for anything, ever again? I'd guess he's rendered himself unemployable, for Anything, forever.
That cuts both ways. If I'm interpreting it correctly, Phil sees TBL as potentially blowing up so dramatically that it becomes toxic for the career of ANYONE associated with the project through activities of employees not under his control that he has unsuccessfully tried to deter.
So he concludes that anything he has to do with DP is toxic for his career but cannot get DP to cut the strings despite repeated communication. So he is trying to do some damage control and return those funds that he can to at least minimize damage to the prospective customers.
I think Phil is thinking that he'd rather have the black mark on his resume of a guy who will do anything to avoid impropriety once he's exhausted in-company communication, over the black mark on his resume of being a party towards misleading licensing negotiations and selling a pinball machine that could not exist in its presented form.
If that's the case, I think he chose properly with regards to future career prospects and disagree with you.
I agree with the earlier post: would go to Kahlua's competitor and ask them if they wanted free advertising.
Quoted from vid1900:
It looks like Phil tried to cut his ties to DP for quite a while before finally refunding the money out of frustration.
Anyone battling cancer sees things in a different light.
I'm sure he does not want to check out and leave his family with some legal mess.
I'm sure he does not want the year to end with it looking like he has millions in income on his books.
I'm sure he does not need the stress of DP's adventures during his cancer treatment.
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:
Read the email from the post right after this quote...Phil was ok with DP draining the US funds as long as his name was off of it. Thoughts?
Phil recognized he ultimately did not have authority over DP, BV, the European entity. Only DP, USA, which has his name all over it. So over the entity with which he has formal responsibility, he said no. It doesn't mean he approves/disapproves over what DP, BV did with ITS funds (though I'm fairly sure he disapproved...), just that it was out of his sphere of control.
And he actually was actively pursuing getting DP, USA ALSO out of his sphere of control, but couldn't get DP, BV to take it over.
At least that's how I read it.
Post edited by Rick432: Edited to correct "DP, USA" should have been "DP, BV" at end of second paragraph. Now corrected.
Quoted from Plungemaster:
We call that blackmail here.
Lol, always the same brown nosing down voters.
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:
No, it's because it isn't blackmail you idiot.
Neither is it brown nosing.
I am grateful that Phil got me out of the unstable DP, USA.
I am hopeful that Barry and Jaap can convince me to return to DP, BV, but they need to respond in a convincing fashion by:
(1) demonstrating that licensing is absolutely not an issue;
(2) explaining why displaying unlicensed work won't endanger the project;
(3) clearly expressing what licensing is locked up and what is still up in the air preferably by revealing a prototype/graphic of a pin whose sound and graphics are more realistically representative of what purchasers can expect;
(4) clarifying that funds for TBL are NOT being used to fund BoP 2.0;
(5) delivering BoP 2.0 (as a demonstration of their ability to deliver a finished product);
(6) getting Phil out of DP entirely as seems to be the mutual agreement several weeks ago, including access to DP, USA or DP, BV funds;
(7) providing an up-to-date diagram of DP's organizational structure with comprehensive demarcation of responsibilities;
(8) assembling a rough and up-to-date timeline of BoP 2.0 and TBL completion of licensing, acquiring materials, beginning/completion of production, and beginning/completion of delivery.
A convincing explanation of the apparent unwillingness of DP-BV to assume control/responsibility over DP-USA with the dismissal/resignation of Phil 6-7 WEEKS ago would be nice, as well.
That's what it would take for me, personally, to put my gratefully refunded money back into TBL as a preorder. Otherwise, I will wait for a final product to be shipping and decide then (as many have advocated doing in the first place).
Um, did I read Phil's post correctly, because no one seems to have commented on this fascinating nugget:
BoPv2 is an InsertMedia product, and NEITHER a DP-BV nor DP-USA product?
And TBL money, deposited with DP-BV or DP-USA, was being used to float an InsertMedia product (via its "DP" subsidiary, not a part of either "DP-BV" nor "DP-USA?")????
And that InsertMedia is PRIVATELY OWNED by Barry?
Is that true?
If so, that's a BIG problem, right?
Post edited by Rick432
Quoted from examiner:
Not necessarily, assuming the transfer of funds was approved by the appropriate parties (i.e. the 2 out of 3 vote mentioned earlier). It's really an accounting issue - DP books an account receivable & InsertMedia books a corresponding liability. It's the accounting and keeping track of where the money comes from that's important from the perspective of good business management. If it never gets paid back, DP claims a loss and IM claims it as income.
The concepts of "fraud", "theft", etc. aren't really pertinent to this conversation since it IS their money to do with as they please (as hard as that is for those who put deposits down to accept that). Again, as long as DP appropriately approved the transfer (if the 3rd shareholder misappropriated the funds without proper authority, that's another story).
And also remember this is a privately held company. Whatever they do isn't designed to influence the share price and it doesn't result in inaccurate financial reports to shareholders/the world. So it's hard to find a scenario where use of the word "fraud" is appropriate, at least at this point in time. Tax liabilities/implications, sure. But there are perfectly legal ways for them to share funds between companies.
Okay, thanks for that.
But InsertMedia would still be required to put the money BACK into the DP-BV and DP-US entities for the purposes of their products (to date, only TBL), right? One couldn't simply channel money from DP-BV/-US to InsertMedia without expecting some recompensation back into DP-BV/-US, right?
Roger Sharpe is great news.
The apparent incorporation of DP-USA just TODAY is good news.
But for me personally, I need to see the pinball machine AFTER Roger Sharpe's involvement before I bring my money back. I want to see how much of the unlicensed sounds/images/music that apparently were on the prototypes remain after the licensing gets worked out. And I want to see if the surviving budget still supports the hardware that we saw in the prototypes.
I know pulling my money out makes this harder, but this circus is not my fault. DP earned my trust with the protos. They've lost it with the protos (now that new information has come to light).
I hope this gets sorted out and everyone ends up happy. But my money stays with me until then.
Quoted from burningman:
Didn't mean it as a bad thing. There was post in this thread that DP should allow people to get full refunds, wait until the game is produced, and then allow guys back in their same original spot as a "good gesture" (and as I read it, it implied they got for the same original price with all the goodies)
I don't agree with that. And I also have no issues with guys that want out...my problem is with guys wanting their cake and eat it too.
I agree with burningman on this. I think the point of the preorder perks of the chrome and rug is as recompensation for the uncertainty and waiting involved.
I'm just saying that for me, in my own personal assessment, the increase in likelihood of sinking in thousands of dollars and getting absolutely nothing to show for it makes the possibility of getting chrome and a rug with a pin inadequate compensation for risking so much money.
But, yeah, that means I'm out for preorder perks, obviously. No problem with that.
If someone wants the preorder perks, the new Phil-free dutch pinball paypal account is online. Simply take your involuntarily refunded money and resubmit it there, with no loss in preorder status. But I see the unsolicited return of my money as a dying canary in a coal mine, and an opportunity to reassess the price in risk and time I'm paying for some chrome and a rug. And I find it too expensive.
That's just me.
I am looking forward to buying the pin when it's finally produced if it survives the licensing process largely intact. I hope I will have a chance to buy a rug and upgrade to chrome at that time. This has nothing to do with my assessment with DP's ability to design a pinball, and choose/implement a great theme.
It has everything to do with my reassessment of DP's ability to launch a company and produce that pinball on an industrial level however.
DP=Damned creative. Pretty sloppy.
But it looks like they're trying to get their act together. I still need to see more evidence that they've really reORGANIZED. I'd like to see what reassurances they give that DP won't sacrifice the development of TBL for PinBot (which I want to see delivered to purchasers, but they purchased from Barry, not DP).
And I want to see a MORE ACCURATE representation of what TBL will look like, with things that have been refused by licensors taken off the pin, and only demonstrating what has been approved, now that a professional pinball licensor is involved.
Until then, I'm steering clear but watching for signs of hope.
Quoted from awarner:
I'd like to add that BOP 2.0 has shipped in Europe and that they are very close to shipping in the US. I hope that finishing the kit will restore some confidence that they will complete TBL. I rode the BBB dinosaur back in the day. It's really frustrating to hear "it's coming, it's coming" and not know what's really going on. I feel confident that it'll all work out.
I think it is unfortunately another source of uncertainty that the european BOP2 kits have shipped some time ago, yet no sign of the american BOP2s. It suggests the problem is not of development, but of logistics/funding, which is worrisome. And the fact that BOP2, strictly speaking, is NOT a DP product, but DP monies have been (possibly entirely legitimately) transferred towards the BOP2 project makes things seem more worrisome/pyramidal (and I don't have ANY inside info... I'm just commenting on appearances).
Really want to get a TBL pin.
But much more scared of losing thousands of dollars than losing a rug, a plaque, and chrome trim.
I don't think it was a bad update. Definitely some good things in there, like addressing the music/Goodman licensing, and bringing a reputable CPA on board.
But too many liquidity questions abound for me in the form of unfulfilled refund requests and BOP2 kits to be delivered (even though BOP is from a different entity than DP, some DP money, possibly entirely legitimately, is involved in that project, too.
I will most likely await substantial production before purchasing.
But I won't rule out giving substantial money beforehand to DP if BOP2 gets solved/clarified and requested refunds delivered as per DP's promises earlier. January first, though, is too early for me to throw my hard earned money back into this black box. I have too many nightmares of DP just disappearing one day with my money, not necessarily from dishonesty, but mismanagement. This email is a good start. But not "$6k-(or so)-by-January-1" good
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:
Not true, the reason Phil did that, from what I gather from the evidence in this thread, was to publically distance himself from DP after so much non communication and non action regarding what appears to be several important issues. That leads me to believe that DP wasn't messed up because of what Phil did, rather that it just came to light because of it.
And that DPs recent laudable actions of hiring a CPA versed in international accounting as well as a well-known pinball licensing attorney seem to be a direct result of Phil's (admittedly maverick) actions.
Quoted from sd_tom:
So.. Its march 1; people are in or out on the pre order, refunds have been issued. Thread resolved?
Was out after involuntary refund.
Went back and forth so many times on this, but got back in last night.
Having second thoughts. Followed by third thoughts. And so on.
Got back on board after reconsolidation of dp seemed to go as it needed, and licensing issues seemed to be worked out and BOP2 kits finally out.
Hope I made right call...
Quoted from Dr_Spaceman:
If it makes you feel any better you weren't alone with the back and forth decisions. In the end I went the same way you did. Feel ok about DP and their situation now, but hope the drama is over.
Yes, it makes me feel better.
No, wait, it doesn't.
But yes, it does.
This topic is closed.
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