Los Angeles, CA
Yes take care of yourself while you do the rest of the refunds.
(Topic ID: 112377)
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Dutch Pinball, 2016
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I have been requesting a refund for the past 6 days with no luck.
Dutch Pinball is responsible for our money and needs to simply send out an email that states that all money paid in will be honored and credited towards a machine. That is the bare minimum. If they do not do this, TBL a will never see the light of day. You can be dead sure of that.
What is your nature??????
Let's say that the US preorder people lose their money and DP abandons them, BUT DP does manage to finish the game and produce it. Would you still want one? Would you support a company that used a loophole to defraud USA customers? Why is it that DP hasn't issued a statement assuring USA customers that they will honor their deposits?? Why did Phil stop issuing refunds? is the account actually empty, or did DP threaten Phil with a lawsuit if he continues? If the latter is the case, then DP is lying, if the former is true then DP is lying.
Phil has control over an account that has, or had a lot more money in it than what he refunded. Dutch Pinball is saying the money is still there and they are trying to take control. Phil has the cash and has stopped all communications with customers. I find it odd that some people in this thread seem to have zero sympathy for those of us who might have just been taken for $4500. If this is not put right, you guys do realize this game will NEVER be made.
Quoted from 27dnast:What???
TBL a will never see the light of day if the USA customers get screwed out of their money. It's in EVERYONE's best interest to make sure it all gets sorted. DP is responsible for that money, not Phil. The machine will not be produced if the finances aren't fixed because Universal has zero interest in defaming its intellectual property for a few pennies. That's why Barry knows he only has a few days to fix this.
DP has $5500 from me. I requested a refund and have not received it. DP needs to remedy this situation by this Wednesday. I will redeposit the cash if they refund it and explain how everything has been remedied, what the status of the license is, how solvent the company is and how they plan to build these babies. It is after all a brilliant design!!
Barry, We need an update.
Quoted from Aurich:I think 1-4 are fair, 5 isn't. I don't think there's any real sign that DP can't survive.
There is a real question whether they can survive. If they were solid, they would have immediately issued a statement that DP USA is no longer, but everyone's money is safe with DP. They refuse to do that. They seem to be heading towards some resolution where they blame PHil for taking our money and absolving themselves of responsibility. Only problem is DP is liable for all the money as there was never any legal distinction between DP and DP USA. The machine is dead if they don't sort this out. I cont care that much about my $5500, but after I get done talking with Universal, DP won't have a TBL a license. The machine is going to rock if it gets made, so I am really hoping that DP fixes this.
No is not. DP now knows what they must do. If the newsletter tomorrow is another dance around the fact that they are not taking responsibility for the money they took, and are not discussing their finances at all, then we have a real problem.
Quoted from pinballslave:So what´s your plan dude, pay Universal to pull the liucence on TBL to screw DP and kill the project, or some other cunning plan? Do tell...
Probably meaningless bullshit after that too!
OK, here´s a question for all you little urban presumers out there... it has been stated that Phil got nervous of business practices and potential licensing issues and therefore started this whole fiasco... and many have agreed with this idea... my question is: can anyone explain where this knowledge came from? It is simply what Phil said... If all you have to do is say something for it to be fact, then I have a 12" dick! No really, it must be true... I said it
The point is that we don´t know thst Phil actually got nervous about this at all... we just know that he said he did, and that was his ´excuse´ for starting all of this... since then people are bailing ship left right and center... The panic from one man´s words is astounding!
I ordered TBL less than two hours after it was announced. I wish them nothing but the best of luck and total success. I think the machine is a masterpiece. TBL a will not get made however, if they defraud USA customers. That's all I am saying. I am not donating $5500. I am confident they will fix everything shortly. The panic has grown because DP refuses to issue refunds. The fear is that the money is gone and DP will try and disconnect themselves from this so called USA debt.
One possibility is Phil will not release funds until DP completes all the paperwork removing him from the company.
Another possibility is DPUSA is empty. Phil claims he paid bills with his credit cards and I'm guessing he has taken that money from DPUSA.
But in any case it IS clear that DP isn't brimming with cash. If they were, they would have issued a statement saying that our deposits are being honored. They still refuse to do that. To me, that means that if they can't get that money back, it will destroy the company and they will attempt to disconnect from DPUSA.
The lack of detail in the update is disappointing, but I have some hope. I'm going to give them two weeks before I panic.
As long as DP has enough cash to start producing TBLs, all the people that pulled out will jump back in. Let's just pray they've got cash and enough business sense to make it. I just heard something in private that leads me to believe they will cure the DPUSA situation shortly. Personally I won't wait forever till the nuclear option is exercised.
1 week later
Quoted from el_brio:What they are trying to figure out probably is whether or not DP USA is still a going concern and whether or not they can fold the US operation if need be without affecting the parent company. At this point, loaning money to DP USA might be a bad idea.
What are you saying? The DPU webite makes no mention of two distinct companies. It's just DP. My $5500 was given to DP and the website confirms that they have $5500 of my money. Just because there are two companies, doesn't absolve DP of their responsibility to honor my payments to the website. TBL Will not get made if they defraud us. I will make sure of that.
Phil mentioned he was paying DP bills from his credit card. I am sure that he either withdrew this money that he had paid into DP from the USA customer PayPal account or he wants the money before signing any papers. DP needs to explain their finances right away. It is odd that PHil only made some refunds. It looks bad, but I'm hoping for the best.
DP does not have the money to issue the refunds without bankrupting the company. That's why the crickets and no mention of liquidity. So basically we all need to just sit and pray that they will have the cash to build everyone's machine. There will be no refunds.
For those of you who are wondering how I know that my previous statement is true, here is my answer:
The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. If DPU can hold out long enough and begin production, then customers will recind their requests for a refund. That's their plan. They don't want to refund anyone else and are using the PHil PayPal situation as an excuse.
I have given up hope for a refund, and am eagerly awaiting production and my machine.
Quoted from Razorbak86:Dude, you're all over the place. One minute you're going on about talking to Universal and blowing up the licensing deal. The next minute, you're talking to Barry, saying "new shit has come to light" and doubling down with the next payment. Now you're talking about liquidity again (even though that situation has never changed). I wouldn't worry about other people reading too much into your posts, because it seems pretty clear that you haven't even made up your own mind.
May I suggest that you sit down, relax, and mix yourself a White Russian? The Kahlua is sitting on top of the bar. It's the one with the electrical tape over the brand name.
Lol. Yes I am all over the place. I'm in. I believe this thread needs to stay alive, so they don't get complacent. Need updates.
1 week later
Toiletmaster, DP has a serious financial problem. If they didn't, they would have issued the refunds from their Dutch accounts, which should be considerable. It's going to take a lot of money to build these machines. The fact that they were willing to trash their reputation over this debacle, indicates they are pretty broke and need the preorder investors. It doesn't look good. I still think they will pull it off, if they get control of the PayPal account.
Never a statement from DP like "there are enough funds in the PayPal account to take care of all refunds" their refusal to give facts and real promises speaks volumes
PS I'll stay in if they disclose some details of their operation.
1 week later
beacause there was a major mishap, followed by zero assurances of financial stability and assurances that the U.S. money was safe, no one should be penalized for requesting a refund. Now that money is being refunded, DP should give customers a couple days to redeposit and not lose their place. I'm sure they will. That would be really bad if they take the position that customers should have had more faith. Fact is they have had our money all this time.
I requested a refund because DP did not disclose any financial info and I wanted to get my $5500 back before they went under. Now that they have the funds to refund customers, I no longer want the refund. I want to continue supporting the release of TBL, as I have been doing since day one. If I lose my place in line, I'll probably pass on the machine for now and maybe pick one up later. I am certain that DP will do the right thing here. After all the shitstorming, they don't need any ill will.
Quoted from pinballslave:Doesn't sound like there's much of a line to move up from where you're standing
I'm very relieved to find that the DPUSA Paypal account has clearly been un-locked!
Regarding the 'who should be let back in' debate, my own personal thinking on the whole conundrum of wanting a refund was that if I could get one, it would mean all is OK, so I wouldn't want one... and if I couldn't get one, it would mean all was f*cked, in which case I'd want one... but of course this latter scenario would render it impossible to actually get one... so with both scenarios, asking for one would be pointless... that was my main reasoning for not asking...
I can understand people panicking and wanting a refund (and asking for one), I can also understand those people wanting back in when they get a refund (my own thinking, but I just went to the next logical step and didn't ask)... What I think DP should have done to help the 'I only want out if I don't need to be out' people (like me, but a 'non-refund requesting' version) is say to people who requested a refund: We are about to process your requested refund after resolving the issues we unfortunately had with the DP USA account. Once your refund is processed you will not be allowed back in line. If you still want your refund, please confirm by reply and it will be processed. We apologise for putting you through this stressful time, and hope you decide to stay with us, but if you do decide to leave, your full refund will be processed immediately upon confirmation that this is what you really want...
I guess they didn't do that, so now we understandably have people wanting back in now the feeling of everything being screwed has gone...
Good post. I requested a refund and planned to refuse it once they offered it. It was a test and completely warranted in my view, although would have been better to do nothing like you said. But understand that DP resents people for requesting a refund. They are holding a grudge. I caught them before my refund wen through and told them to forget the refund and they told me to forget TBL. That's right, no soup for you!! They had my money all year and now I'm not good enough. It's kind of funny in a way. NO SOUP FOR YOU. BACK OF THE LINE INFIDEL. I think the machine is going to be awesome. I really do. How else do you justify the utter arrogance that DP exhibits at every turn? I guess I'll put on a disguise, and use my father in laws credit card to order one. LOL
Quoted from Jvspin:In my opinion the pre-order process is fraught with risk and there will be ups and downs until/after/if the game arrives.
I think those who are willing to put money in at the beginning and stay on board throughout all those ups and downs deserve to be treated special.
Doesn't seem fair to the people who stayed in through all the turmoil were DP to allow the people who jumped ship (some who made a big stink while they were doing it) to get back in with the same perks and price they had when they left.
No problems with selling them a game after it's out though.
UH..... I never jumped ship. They had my money the whole time. And I cancelled my refund request at the last second. But that wasn't good enough. To their defense I wasn't all touchy and geeky about the situation, but they could have fixed that easily by providing more info.
Last post excluding more soup nazi pix
How is it valid that I go to the back of the line???? I cancelled my refund request before they refunded me. They said we are refunding you anyway. They had my money all this time. I was one of the very first to preorder. Why should I lose anything? They kept my cash all this time and kicked me out simply because they couldn't take any criticism, which they still can't take and refuse to admit they did anything wrong or less than optimal.
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