The Big Lebowski
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But, the pre -order model is for these small companies to even think about doing a small run of machines. It's your choice, either you risk it and it works out, or you wait for the next Stern or JJP machine and be happy about it. 
Quoted from taylor34:No, the pre-order model is for the customer to assume all the risk while the company assumes none. We're basically full of pinball kickstarters.
Yes, and why, because the boutiques don't have the cash to do it on their own. Thus, either you do it, or you don't and don't get those types of machines. It is that easy.
Quoted from gweempose:So what's Stern's excuse?
You don't have to prepay to own a Stern machine. They make them and sell them footing the entire bill.
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Quoted from Aurich:Nonsense. You finance making the final prototype, complete with code, yourself. That's on you. If you can't handle that then let's be honest, you have no business running a business.
You can take money from people when you're ready to go to production. "Pay now, you'll get your game in 3 months" would be totally acceptable.
Can't do that? Don't decide to be a pinball manufacturer.
I'm AGAINST what they're doing btw. That's what they all do, pretty much, and still doesn't work most of the time. Because when you have no skin in the game you have no motivating to succeed.
Quoted from Cenobyte:I can see things from both camps here. Phil wanted everything more “clean”, but let’s be honest: the guys at DP have made a working prototype in an amazingly short amount of time. You don’t get there by following all the red tape. I’m sure some corners were cut (heavily perhaps) but getting a real machine out there for us pinball guys to touch was the first big hurdle and I guess they wanted to get there as fast as possible, maybe underestimating the legal impact of (just a) prototype. But if you have a work in progress and you're "trying out stuff", you can't legalize every soundbit or playfield idea first. You need to get things done, test the effects on your audience and after positive reviews you'll want to take care of legal stuff. Maybe not the perfect way of doing business, but we're not talking about Stern here with 60 people on staff...
IMHO Phil is trying to hurt these guys as hard as he can, spilling all he knows about TBL and DP and sharing it here. Not even close to professional, even regarding his very unfortunate health problems and the harm DP might have been doing to him. But so far I have only read HIS side of the story.
Don't forget: up until now this thread isn't even 24 hours old, so let's hold our horses for now and wait for some official reaction on how DP wants to treat this shitstorm of corporate info Phil has just tossed here on the forum...
BTW: yes, I'm Dutch but I'm not affiliated to DP in any way
Showing unlicensed product in the USA to the public can cost you millions of dollars in lawsuits.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I know Phil is going thru some stuff and probably isn't thinking long-term...but will anybody ever hire him for anything, ever again? I'd guess he's rendered himself unemployable, for Anything, forever.
Why, because he seems to want to follow the law?
Quoted from Plungemaster:We call that blackmail here.
Blackmail? You need to learn what that word means.
Quoted from Plungemaster:We call that blackmail here.
Lol, always the same brown nosing down voters.
No, it's because it isn't blackmail you idiot.
Quoted from pinballslave:But if you sell a refundable pre-order for the game, are you actually selling the game? If the person placing the pre-order can back out before the game hits production, and that person is told what the final version of the game will be like, he can then get a refund if he's not happy with the changes... so the buyer doesn't get stung, and in the end the licencing is all in order... Personally I'd prefer a TBL with Austin Powers doing the Goodman callouts than no TBL at all... and no cash because the company has gone belly-up!
Exactly!
You can't publically display unlicensed content, period.
Quoted from kvan99:Depends how you're looking at...get me out today or I'll yell "Fire" in the theater.
No it's not, blackmail is for personal gain, there is no blackmail.
I'm happy in a way, not for people with thousands of dollars in limbo of course, but rather for the realization that the 'kickstarter' model most often than not results in bad feelings. It's a terrible way to do business and is a reflection of the something for nothing society at large today.
Quoted from Cenobyte:Because a lot of the stuff ventilated was done so by a man who is clearly clouded by his emotions? Because this whole endeavor deserves some REAL investigating before people jump off ship like a chicken with his head cut off? Because in the end, DP might just go under BECAUSE of all the damages done by these accusations and wild rants and people jumping ship because of it?
Or you're Dutch.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:One thing, and I may be wrong, but with all those deposits, and the end of the year, isnt that income, that gets reported to be taxed?
Sales tax?
I would not want that position.....
Yes, Phil mentioned the tax implications earlier.
Quoted from Cenobyte:Yeah, like that's a very mature reply... I could also turn that one around easily.
Hi pot, I'm kettle.
Quoted from RTR:I still think it is pretty good. Nothing Phil has described yet is (or was) insurmountable.
Main thing seems to be the license. And at some point they were headed towards a bitch slap from Universal which would cause them to redesign some artwork. Big deal.
Also, Phil hasn't resolved himself of anything. In fact, if the ship does go down, DP BV would probably want Phil attached at this point, to share in the liability. From their point of view, everything Phil has mentioned was resolvable and Phil's actions have caused any problem that was there to be worse.
Oh, I don't know, hauling around two pinball machines without proper licensing and displaying them in public within the united states is illegal. These business aren't your buddies, that you can have a beer with and laugh about it and 'make it right'. They will sue you for everything you have.
Quoted from Cenobyte:Last time I checked BoP was a DP product. TBL is also a DP product. That means they can allocate money to one or the other as much as they want.
But not by using funds sent to DP USA...
Quoted from Cenobyte:Immature AND a lawyer. Admirable
I'm Dutch too, damn triple whammy I guess...
Quoted from Cenobyte:It might be the terms? Or it might be the fact that you shot so many holes in the ship before abandoning it
Have you even read any post with comprehension? My god man...
Quoted from Biv:I'm sorry, but that is not true.
Her may be protecting himself and family, but not the "customers"
Yes, some that payed recently via Paypal have gotten a refund and may be happy.
But in general this behaviour endangered the whole TBL project much more than the whole licensing stuff and whatever Baary/Jaap were doing.
This also means that IF the DP ship should sink now, many more (potential) customers will be in jeopardy than Phil may have "saved" with his actions.
So no, I am not happy with his actions, though I see why he did it.
It's just that he also did it on the back of many customers and fans of DP.
I think he did it so he and his family wouldn't have been held liable for the potential marketing fiasco and sued for millions of dollars.
Quoted from pinballslave:Did he also accuse Barry of being a thief publically to help avoid being sued for millions of dollars and thus protect his family?
I haven't read every single post, I don't recall reading one that accused anyone of anything. I read posts that showed facts of non-communication and seemingly unwilling to ever do so. IF Barry was willing to let Phil take the fall for DP, then I don't really care what Phil said. Of course we don't really know, and I would assume they are now talking, even if through lawyers, so it had the desired effect whether you agree with the tactic or not.
The crowd funding idea is a scam in my opinion, you may disagree, but I have tried it, I've 'invested' in three campaigns. Guess how many I've received what I bought, yup, ZERO. One is two years over, the others are approaching a year. I doubt I'll ever see anything, or if I do, it won't resemble what I was promised.
Quoted from Cenobyte:In 1848 we even kicked the French out, I think, and in 1626 we bought Manhattan
But let's not make this a US vs. Netherlands thing.
Not, actually, if you look back, you're far more guilty of this than anyone.
Quoted from pinballslave:A scam is is basically a deceptive way to take peoples money with no intention of providing what was paid for... are you saying that you don't think DP had any intention to make any machines and were purely taking money from pre-orders to steal? If that's the case, why are we still hearing from them? Surely they'd have shut up shop now and vanished with all our cash? Personally I think they're actually planning to build TBL myself... and then give it to people who paid for it...
It sure makes it easier to scam people. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Quoted from Aurich:It's funny that the Blu-Ray can have Walter with a gun, but the pinball can't.
Millions of dollars speaks volumes.
Quoted from Biv:No of course not.
Only US citizens(?) with paypal payments from within the last couple months got a refund.
Foreigners or everyone else was safe from the actions of Phil.
Safe, that's a good one.
Quoted from Cenobyte:Without an emoticon, that's a blow below the belt...
Just wait and see, this will eventually be a magnificent product when all this ruckus blows over. Meanwhile listen to the podcast with Roger Sharpe, it will answer a lot of questions raised here about the licensing issues.
It doesn't really, it's just what side you choose to believe.
Quoted from anubis2night:I think a few weeks will make the difference here for most folks. Hopefully any work needed to settle items between Barry and Phill will get resolved.
Personally I'd think it would make more sense to have payments more in line with the stages of manufacturing.
First deposit based on a prototype with final approval. Second deposit based on opening stages of manufacturing. Third stage of deposit when initial run of pinball madhine are completed and pass inspection and final payment when these are ready for shipping.
This sort of payment system would allow funds to be available as the stages are met. It helps a company grow and it keeps them hungry to compete each stage. It's also based on common construction loans.
So when can I get a refund? If I were ever to be convinced to get into something like this, I would require my funds to be reimbursed at any time before my machine is being assembled, and that's the issue with what happened here. The money is gone you guys, any money you invested in this is gone and been absorbed by DP, unless it went through DP USA.
I'm not.sure I understand the logic of how Phil screwed over a customer. He returned money, not stole it. That's not screwing anyone over.
Quoted from Plungemaster:Hehe, never saw people so happy for sending in their money,
.
I think, not sure, even when i had alot of money, i would not pre order. Maybe only if the builders are my friends, to support them.
Can always buy it when it is out and ready to ship.
Not true, most of these projects require your cash up front to even think about production.
Quoted from musketd:Still waiting for refund have not heard anything yet
They've decided they want you to stay in, even if you don't want to. Evidently that's the way it works in the Netherlands. 
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:So folks really thought the money was just sitting there vs paying bills and ordering parts etc.
Yeah a run will hurt but they can also clear things up and move forward. Maybe they will need to find an investor or slow down.
That exactly why I am in. If you want to make a run and slow it down and be part of hindering vs helping then its a shame you got in.
Its been said by many,The game is one of then greatest so it will get sold. Maybe in small batches or with an investor or by pinheads getting back on the train and supporting them.
But the game is out there and many of us want it.
We all just need Phils shit cleaned up and to move forward.
If you want to fund a startup for good tidings and feeling, more power to you. But everyone doesn't feel that way, so they should be able to get out and not be held hostage.
Quoted from DnDPins:Just because a prototype looks great and there is demand for the game, does not mean that it is a viable business venture. There are minimum expenses which need to get paid and require a certain number of games to be sold (preorders or not) for the business to stay afloat. Good intentions and best wishes are not going to get games produced. They need capital, either from preorders or investment. The sad truth is that if enough people get refunds and they cant fund this company (and have the orders to make it viable) it's over.
That is true, unfortunate or not.
Quoted from pinballslave:So what´s your plan dude, pay Universal to pull the liucence on TBL to screw DP and kill the project, or some other cunning plan? Do tell...
Probably meaningless bullshit after that too!
OK, here´s a question for all you little urban presumers out there... it has been stated that Phil got nervous of business practices and potential licensing issues and therefore started this whole fiasco... and many have agreed with this idea... my question is: can anyone explain where this knowledge came from? It is simply what Phil said... If all you have to do is say something for it to be fact, then I have a 12" dick! No really, it must be true... I said it
The point is that we don´t know thst Phil actually got nervous about this at all... we just know that he said he did, and that was his ´excuse´ for starting all of this... since then people are bailing ship left right and center... The panic from one man´s words is astounding!
Then DP should have come out and refuted it all with evidence. Now, I realize they don't have to, but I think it would be in their best interest.
Quoted from pinballslave:One thing I was told as a kid by my parents was that if I´m going to lie, I have to stick to the same story
Define big. I´m not saying there were no issues at all, but the point is that whatever issues that were there (displaying at expo a not 100% approved game, whatever other claims at a flwaless business practice have been proven) were not harming the business to a significant degree, if any at all... probably helping business. It was also not harming the ability for the game to get made...
What Phil did, however, is having a significant effect on the business... not because of any problems the business had, but because of the widespread panic causing people to pull out... if everyone pulls out, DP will have no customers to pin any hopes of selling a game on... where will that leave them? I got in bacause I want the pin... getting out because of Phil´s panic tactics isn´t going to help anything apart from whatever agenda Phil had for causing the panic... which was NOT to make TBL a success.
Getting out will save people thousands of dollars.
Quoted from pinballslave:If people who got in wanted to get out to save thousands of dollars, why did they get in? Surely those people should not have got in and saved thousands of dollars at the beginning...??
Maybe the situation was very delicate, maybe Phil was getting himself into trouble from what he was saying... maybe DP didn´t want to put him further in whatever hole he had got himself into which caused him to make these public outbursts in the first place... the guy has serious health issues, so why would the nice guys at DP want to worsen that by starting a public battle... there´s also the legal side of these claims on a public forum to consider... All I´m saying is that with one side of the story only to consider, it´s a bit premature to base decisions to abandon the project...
I just find it hard to imagine that the only reason Phil wanted out so urgently was because of some concerns over licencing, and some possible other imperfect business practice... he did mention some tax stuff, and with the year end looming... maybe he messed something up on that side of things and realised he was facing a massive tax debt that could put his family at risk, and wanted out because of that, and was using these other issues as an excuse/smokecreen... maybe he thought that if he caused enough trouble to the business, DP would cut him lose and absolve him of the problem he´d caused...
All this bailing out based on this one guys claims is a shame for the progress of TBL...
Happy new year to all!! May we see TBLs in our homes in 2015!!
I think people believed that DP was a stable company and really thought the game was a go. Turns out not so much. So, the people requesting their money back will receive it, hopefully, rather than it being gone forever later on. People expect a return, your statement might be true if you were putting money into risky stocks or something, where you know the risk upfront and have decided to do it knowing you could lose it all. That's not at all the same as this.
And I'd consider both sides of the story if there were two sides, my entire point.
Quoted from kvan99:Enough already..this is pinball for chrissakes. WTF!
It's kinda like a car wreck, you don't want to look, but you can't help yourself. You could always drain the thread if it bothers you enough to come on here to post how sad you think the thread is.
Quoted from pinballslave:The only thing making DP seem like an unstable and risky company are Phil´s actions, and the panic that that caused via Pinside. The more people that bail out because of that, the more chance there is that DP and the TBL project will fail. People who pre-ordered did so because they don´t want TBL to fail, they want TBL to play! Trying to persuade people to get out/stay out will only increase the chance of failure... The people who showed their support to DP by pre-ordering should, I suggest, continue that support, they need it more than ever now!! I´m not staying in so I can hold my head high and say I didn´t fail them in their hour of need, I´m staying in bacause I want this game... getting out if you want the game will reduce the chance of getting the game... People who really want it should stick together in their support, and we will all see this game in our gamesrooms.
I´m glad DP at least did something to reward those that stay in/get back in... there is an increased risk now, and with any risk, there should be a reward... sure, the plaque isn´t a massive reward, but it´s something... I hope it encourages some people to get back on board! DP really need to issue a deadline for doing so, or refunded people will understandably sit tight... I know I´l be proud to have that plaque on my game, it will remind me of how I stayed on board through these troubled waters and will give me the feeling that I was part of the reason the game got made at all
That plaque sure will have a story behind it!
Not true, the reason Phil did that, from what I gather from the evidence in this thread, was to publically distance himself from DP after so much non communication and non action regarding what appears to be several important issues. That leads me to believe that DP wasn't messed up because of what Phil did, rather that it just came to light because of it.
Quoted from pinballslave:I´m sure that´s what Phil wants you and everyone else to believe... My take on it is that Phil made some screw up that was going to cause problems to him (and possibly his family) and he wanted out... DP didn´t let him out because they wanted him to sort out the mess, so he created this mess in the hope that DP would finally let him go because they could see he was damaging business... One of Phil´s stated reasons for wanting out was the licencing issues, but we have since found out that there are no real issues here... One post here even said Phil should get credit for making the licencing go as smoothly as Roger said it was!! So his stated reasons for wanting out are evaporating... One of the panics he created was that TBL was screwed from the licence side, we now see it isn´t and wasn´t... What else will we find out isn´t and wasn´t as Phil said...
Anyway, whatever the reasons for Phil doing what he did, we are where we are... I wish Phil the best of luck in fighting his illness, and I wish DP luck in sorting the mess out and restoring people´s confidence in them!I agree, and I wouldn´t keep bringing him up, but since this entire thread and situation is a direct result of his actions, it´s hard for his name not to keep cropping up... My main reason for posting here is to support DP and their efforts to make TBL... why, because I don´t want my money back, I want a game to play.
We can suppose all day long, but with the evidence in this thread I disagree with you. I don't have money in, I suppose if I did, or had inside information, or had some sort of pride in my fellow countrymen making a game I'd stand behind them too.
We shall see.
Quoted from ozno:Talked to Barry and I think they will sort it out.
Oh, I'm sure they told you exactly what you wanted to hear, why wouldn't they, it wouldn't make sense to do otherwise when your going to submit another payment based upon the conversation.
Quoted from pinballslave:Not only did you forget about it, I think you also forgot in what order these events unfolded... My recollection is that they did that AFTER he had already gone berserk... let´s stick to the chronology of events if we´re going to start using them to point the finger
Let me guess... DP do something right and you see it as them trying to fool us... they do something wrong and... they did something wrong... In your eyes DP simply can´t do anything right, wouldn´t you say?
No, I wouldn't say that at all. I think they've been very secretive and don't think that's exactly a good idea right now. It's their choice of course, but until I see something I'll be skeptical. I hope it all works out, I do, more machines, more pinball is better for everyone. It just still has a film of used car sales over it.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:How many people posting shite here are in or even waiting for a refund or just posting on a thread they have zero interest in. Fn amazing to me!
I post here because I'm interested in it, I post in a lot of threads as a discussion, like forums are for. What I don't understand are posts like yours, that provide absolutely zero insight to the discussion at hand.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:What you call posting I call a non buyer mucking up a thread for folks involved in this project.
What, I can't have a discussion on the business problems, personal interactions etc? Mucking it up how, by discussing stuff that has already been posted? I'm not making stuff up, unlike some of the people who are anti-Phil. I'm not anti anything, I'm talking about the evidence posted here, that's all.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:What is the last new game you bought? How are you involved in new pinball except for these helpful thoughts of yours?
Lol, thanks for the laugh. Your on a good start for the 2015 list.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Big difference than a few opinions and you two going on and on. Again, why? You know you are not buying it. So what is it. Some bizarre jealousy, envy or just wish you could play with the big kids?
I get folks that are thinking of buying or have bought lots of other new games and wonder about the model. But flat out non buyers?? Its freaking weird man.
It's freaking weird that you want some sort of good ole boys club where you can't comment unless you meet some type of status level. That's really weird...besides, most of the thread isn't actually about the game. It's about business etc.
There is a solution though, just block me, instead of limiting my speech just don't look at it...easy. Or, drain the entire thread.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Again, is it a comment or very involved in stuff you are not part of and wont be...
No status level. Participatory! I want to talk to folks involved. I dont jump on a Star Trek Game thread and talk crap if I dont own one and wont be.
My point is its more than a comment. You two going on and on and you are not involved so why come on here and cause trouble. Fact!
Either way at least folks can now see you are commenting with no involvement.
Cause trouble? How so? And fwiw, you didn't reveal anything, I've already said I don't have any skin in the game, quite some time ago I believe. Anyway, personally attacking someone for having different views than you is pretty weird man.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Did you email Barry? Iceman was able to work his out. I think between deposits going in yesterday and the accountant involved you should get it soon. Email him and just expect a reasonable time for them to fix the accounting which is under way.
And no I dont want anyone to lose 5k.
I do think you should be able to come on here and ask us to push if you are not getting results and I think you will see even the supporters will be in your corner. Still not sure how two guys with nothing involved are the ones to help you but if you feel they are the solution I will shut up.
It's just a freaking discussion man, my god. I never claim what I have to say is the solution for anything, just a discussion.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Actually he felt you were helping him with his solution.
Actually he didn't, he just said that he appreciated our level-headed discussion.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Yup and you too Rob. Because you may have bought, you have bought and you probably will buy again.
My point is that's skin in the game, meaning it affects you in some way.
It has nothing to to do with exclusivity. Its about common ground.
Like I said anyone can comment, of course. Its one thing to have an opinion but another to get deep in to a thread on a specific subject and yet not be involved in any way.
Regardless I am wrong because someone involved found it helpful. Totally fine with being wrong ; )
Happens all the time, it's called discussions.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:I'm glad they got Jeff Marchetti on board, from what I hear of the man he's overqualified for the position. If anything is a miss in the books, by fault of DP or Phil he will find it.
Definitely agree, that's big a positive step.
Quoted from foxtj24:Matt, when mine comes you can come play it. I am sticking with this till the end.
I would love to, thanks for the offer. I sincerely hope everyone receives their game and it's the best machine ever created.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:hey, if these two guys tell me they have friends in on this talking to them daily about it and that is why they are in here on all these pages keeping this going I am sold on their reasoning. Like I said what's the buy in?
Additionally we stopped this silly banter this afternoon. Nice of you to re hash.
Plus again I stand by folks who buy new games vs those that don't in new game threads. Again not good or bad but why are folks that don't buy from any of the newer game companies so involved in these threads? How about you. What game are you in on?
We're going to always disagree about this. Just because I cannot afford a machine does not mean I can't comment on it. I will never understand that point of view, especially when most of the thread is mostly a discussion on business ethics in general rather specific game related 'things'.
Well, to be fair, you only apologized once, you just mentioned you did the other times. 
Once is enough, it's mote than you usually get here, so that's a good thing in my book.
Quoted from metallik:dude, this is a pinball forum, not some game that you win by forcing someone into submission apologies. Lighten up a bit..
Wait...what??
Quoted from HENSBROOKER:You draw conclusions while you don't know shit! You gave your opinion already, dude. No reason to keep on.
- Btw... I think a lot of you act real un-dude here...
As do you, unless you want to share some shit you know?
Quoted from HENSBROOKER:Sorry... Can't say anything. But my advice would be to stay confident and stay in... You won't be disappointed at all!
I hope so! But still doesn't change the shitty feelings that people are getting if they want their money back, as they were promised from day one.
Quoted from pinballslave:You've been a member of Pinside for 2 weeks, made 7 posts and are making statements that are trying to evoke more panic in people who are already spooked by what's happening at DP... For what do we owe the pleasure of your input?
So you're stiffing peoples opinions based upon duration of membership? This is a free country, being a bully has no effect here. Plus, I think he's right.
Quoted from dgarrett:But obvious trolling I don't like can be ignored by me with a simple click - that's my free right to "NOT" hear him - and I think he is bullying us by his BS. I think he's wrong
Indeed you do, hopefully you ignore me too.
I doubt the game is gonna happen, sad to say that, but it appears it's hard to make a pinball when it involves a license.
I laugh when people post that stupid quote from the movie, of course it's my opinion, it's a forum topic. It's also your opinion that the machine is awesome and will ship just fine.
I hope it all works out, but when they raise the price another 1500 bucks it's not a good sign. But, hopefully my opinion is incorrect and you all get shipped a lovely machine that you enjoy.
Quoted from Concretehardt:Translation... Your pissed they raised the price and you don't want to pay that much, so you come on here and say some inflammatory shit like "I doubt the game is gunna happen"
Thanks for clearing that up for us.
That's like your opinion man. I'm not even interested at 8K, looks like a bore fest.
I'm not bashing anything, nothing is certain until it ships. I've said I hope it works out and you all get the machine and love it, I don't think it will. Get over it, people have different opinions, it's a forum. Don't like what I say, block me, actually, I'd be happy if you did, wouldn't ruin your day anymore.
Quoted from Mr68:Dude, its winter in Minnesota... Take some vitamin D or hit a tanning bed.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-breakthrough-depression-solution/201111/psychological-consequences-vitamin-d-deficiency
Sorry you're all butthurt over an opinion, life must be rough.
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