(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


5 years ago

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#462 5 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Who do I contact? Because (as Barry's letter stated), a dispute with Paypal is not possible.

as an aside.. calling paypal and working through their CS system can do things the website does not allow. I've seen this with ebay and other scams where the website blocks, but once customer service knows what's going on, they have more power.

#485 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Here is a problem I have with Phil.
At Expo he apparently knew about all these so called problems yet was talking up TBL and lets be honest here, talked an awful lot of people including myself to get in on a preorder and becoming a VIP
member.Remember what you said at Expo. Rug and Chrome if you order by October 19th. Nothing was said at Expo or when Phil left the company. Nothing was said until today not just anyday this was the NYC VIP Launch. Very interesting and selfish in my opinion.

I'm confused... you paint him in the wrong for playing the company line... and not being a whistleblower on the topic.

Then paint him in the wrong for being the whistleblower now.

What should he have done in your opinion, when by his account the team show up with a game with decisions made that he was not aware of until that point in time?

The guy didn't have the power to stop the other DP folks from doing what they were doing. He couldn't make the games disappear or forbid the other DP guys from doing their thing.

Quoted from Nilroc:

We are not children here we are grown men. You can't tell me this type of thing can"t be discussed and settled upon privately

By his story he did his part in voicing those concerns to the other DP folks and tried to resolve it. But in his view, he was being dragged around and put at risk by others. He was jettisoning the baggage the only way he could. Obviously he knew this would bring the whole situation to light... but it sounds like some spark was needed.

#551 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

So you have experience building pin balls? In that case, I rest my case. In any other case, let me explain what I mean...
"Taking care of legal stuff" has a very wide perspective here. As I stated already: there isn't a single machine produced at this moment, so considering that, there IS NO LEGAL ISSUE YET. When you start making money using someone else's face, music or brand name, you're in trouble.

Very very wrong on both accounts. First selling or not and money changing hands has no relevance on this. It's violations either way.

Two, the issue is the promotion and public display. They do not own the content and can not advertise or promote with content they don't have approval to use. That is the liabilty that Phil was putting Phil over the edge. Being in an agreement for specific uses of content does not give you carte blanche. The fact it's a prototype does not grant you new rights to promote with someone else's ip.

#554 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I would hope/agree that there is a difference showing a work-in-progress prototype and shipping a completed game with unlicensed assets out to a customer.
Think of any movie being edited with a "temp music mix" where they just use whatever commercial music to put their movie together with while the composer puts something together. That temp mix is not for sale, but people will see it including test screening audiences.
I hope to own a TBL, and hope they pull it together.

48573890.jpg 20 KB

That is simply an example of using alternate licensed content while you work on getting the final content you want. It is not unlicensed content being used freely under the guise of 'temporary'

#561 5 years ago
Quoted from cogito:

I was just about to post the exact same message. It seems like this thread is one big echo chamber where assumptions magically get turned into hard facts within three posts or less.
Put simply, we currently do not know if all of the Goodman callouts that are currently in the prototype are part of the already approved package. If they are, then nothing will radically alter with regards to those callouts when the machine hits the production stage. The sane thing to do would be to try and keep the "OMG no Goodman in TBL"-assumptions to a minimum, until we hear from DP.
Post edited by cogito: spelling

From the email it sounds the art of goodman was the highlight of that specific concern. But echo'ing what you both said... We don't know what was I their limits or not specifically. Apparently Barry doesn't understand either

The fact they would sink money into producing the prototype without clarity either way is telling about their approach to licensing and respect for its risks IMO

#563 5 years ago
Quoted from Monster_Bash:

So why can't they hire a voice actors and make their own 'Goodman' call outs? Not like the phrases are trademarked

But they are very much copyrighted material. Simply recreating it doesn't make it public domain.

Same as art, the written word, etc. the script and the performance are both copyright material.

#602 5 years ago
Quoted from Underspin:

Phil is apparently the only one in the company that gives a shit about the rules

Mark_It_Zero_by_Thirty3Grafix.jp... 30 KB

That is just hysterical given the context

#640 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Pretty sure he waited till Barry was out of country to launch his refund/attack and as an owner of 1/3 DP USA.

Think you have your dp usa facts off.

Anyone know if/where they are incorporated? Didn't see any hits in Illinois searches

#642 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

It sure says something about that person...

Funny... I thought people loved folks like wiki leaks or snowden. I guess it depends on who they are outting to some people

#687 5 years ago

This is why you need a business manager and not just a creative

The 'Phil is just the marketing guy' threads should be a real hoot to read now

#737 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

You guys seem to forget that DP is not just Barry, it's 2 guys: Barry and Jaap. I assume they need to talk to each other about a proper reaction.
Maybe some of you are too damn busy setting up this lynch party that you stopped reading here, so I'll just type it for the third time, this time in capitals:

1) This outcome was not unnanounced - this was not a suprise.. they probably just didn't think he'd go through with it. So they obviously are disorganized enough to NOT be ready for this.. even before it went through.
2) This started Saturday morning... Barry would have still been in NYC from the Modern Pinball event
3) They knew this was happening as they sent out the VIP email response.
4) Phones work across timezones.. as well as every other form of communications. You'd think legal snafus that involve money in the 6 figure range may warrant a bit of attention... even to Phil.

#760 5 years ago
Quoted from PinBalt:

Still confused as hell what we are supposed to do if we preordered over 45 days ago and PayPal does not honor that. And Phil wants to get rid of the money but cannot because he is just missing an email list. Anyone?

Have you picked up the phone and called paypal? Tell them the other party hasn't shipped the goods and is declaring they won't. Don't rely just on the web automation.

#763 5 years ago

The good news is... if all parties are agreeable this thing isn't totally sunk.

Assuming DP make amends with Universal's licensing... they adjust the game as needed to get the approvals and UNI doesn't decide to flex their muscles... we assume a game design gets green-lit for production. Sounds like changes are a high probability, but that doesn't mean the game can't be done at this point. Just different from what we've seen so far.. with probably more delays and higher pre-production costs. Maybe they should start contracting Roger Sharpe now and see if he's available on the side

The whole paypal/deposit thing will get sorted eventually... I'm sure DP will lose money in the mix.. trying to salvage customer relations when it comes to having to cover new transactions fees/etc. If they don't make it a zero cost for customers.. I'm sure that will be lots of bad blood that will run more people off.

Will DP keep a US entity? If not, that makes things difficult if everything is import only... presumably they are shopping for a North American partner to keep that from happening.

Will DP get the additional staff they need to make this project viable through this storm and production AND support? IMO that's one of the harder parts.

Will DP have the financial assets to weather the storm of people that will invariably drop out of the preorder phase and to get through the legal struggles? No idea...

I appreciate Phil telling his side of the story and backing it up... but I fear he went too far with the discussion of future projects. Let's just hope DP have more interest in getting the game done than they do with legal pursuit.

#769 5 years ago
Quoted from QuickSilverShelby:

If this game finally gets made couldn't the playfield be left blank in the proposed "pot leaf location" and then a nice pot leaf mylar be later sold for $5 (or included in the machine) and later applied in that location?

Then UNI would come back and haunt them. You can't just 'not install a part' to get around the legal issues. Your intentions and actions will bind you just as much as the shipping product. And willful violation of the law would only increase the damages the IP holder could pursue.

A 3rd party would have to do it.. independent of DP's actions.

#797 5 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

you summed up how many of us are feeling about this project now!

There is potential The door isn't shut yet...

#855 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Then how did Skit-B get off the ground?

let us know when they actually get off the ground

#981 5 years ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

your actions have shown me personally that you are a liability at all levels. finance, marketing, and most importantly... loyalty.

Because nothing defines loyalty like being willing to throw your life away for the person screwing you...

He could have gotten a lawyer and just liquidated too.. would have cost him tons, but would have been the 'professional' way. Meanwhile dozens in the pinball community would have been tied in legal mess for ages trying to get their money back, if ever.

At least this way many people have gotten their money clear of the DP mess. Phil may have gone down in flames blazing... but at least the innocents are better off from it.

#990 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

From their point of view, everything Phil has mentioned was resolvable and Phil's actions have caused any problem that was there to be worse.

'resolvable' if both parties were participating... and that was the problem. Party 2 was ignoring party 1 and dragging party 1 down with their unilateral decisions.

Its like being dragged around on a leash... you can chose not to to walk, but the leash still drags you forward. That's what was happening here.

#1007 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I guess I haven't heard anything that concerns me enough to pull out EXCEPT Phil inciting a panic

My .02...

- Demonstrating a complete lack of respect or understanding of the licensing laws and agreements in place
- we have the email from Julie inferring there were problems before
- we have the email from Julie pointing out known conflicts
- we have the clear examples where they go and add stuff before they have any confirmed right to
do so (the shown prototype with kaluha, unapproved art, sound, etc)
- Stories told where they brazenly ignore their adviser on the topic

None of that gets better without changes and none of that was caused by this thread.

- We have the continued problems with BOP v2 getting delivered and now all the cross-contamination
between the BOP project and DP USA. This was not caused by this thread and again shows
extremely poor business management
- We have the documented case where after many weeks they can not resolve internal business
- We have examples that show what appears to be almost zero internal business structure/process
(forwarding invoices across entities to pay each others bills). Who really believes at this point
there is a solid accounting structure in place here?

None of these problems were caused by Phil - but rather exposed by Phil to show what appears to be a group of guys on a mission to get something done.. masquerading as a business simply because it's what they needed to have in place to get this far. It does not sound like they have a solid foundation from which to pursue their ambition from.

#1018 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Just who are the guilty? DP used some money to pay for parts and travel etc... so what? It's a company they have to spend money to travel and promote the game, buy parts and stuff. So they bought parts for BoP 2.0, how's that stealing?

If you are going to direct a post at me - you should stick to things I've actually said.

- Declaring some innocent (buyers) does not define who are the guilty. So I didn't declare anyone guilty with that line
- Where did I say stealing? That's right, I didn't
- Company assets are not a personal slush fund to just reallocate like your personal piggy bank. There are accounting implications on what and where money is associated with.

Quoted from kvan99:

If this was all a scam how come BoP 2.0 customers got their kit after all the TBL money was already collected?

Where are all the US kits again? And again... where did I say this was some scam?

Quoted from kvan99:

The level of naivete on this forum is astounding.

The logic and comprehension level of some who elevate themselves is astounding.

#1030 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

No, that's not "what's happening here". What's happening here is that Phil TOLD you that this was happening. You chose to believe it as a FACT, not me.

Here's a fact... the parties split... and over 6 weeks later, they left the 'disgruntled' guy with the keys to the vault. That's defendable how?

Your defense so far has been 'liar liar pants on fire!!' with nothing to discredit what has been submitted, and nothing to discredit the indisputable facts that we do have (phil split with DP BV, DP has yet to resolve their US entity problems, DP left a disgruntled employee with management of tens of thousands dollars worth of customer submitted funds, DP has been advertising and showing a prototype, etc).

Know why we believe what has been shown? Because it adds up and doesn't conflict with the indisputable facts. It is a story SUBSTANTIATED with references that appear credible and dovetails with hard facts. Simply put... there is enough there to believe the core elements (USA vs BV, the split, the lack of disassociation, the unapproved content being used in promotion, the use of content before having approval, the access of DP USA's assets).

Meanwhile, you come back with 'friends don't do this to friends' 'some friend you are' 'they are traveling' and now this general attack on anyone that dare think for themselves and take in the information available. You're a joke.. blindly defending what you yourself have admitted you have no knowledge of or association while ignoring all the indisputable elements.

Quoted from Cenobyte:

Then you post "your 2 cents" acting like you've worked with Stern or Bally/Williams and know how they handle their license stuff?

Yes, because the law is not defined by pinball companies or dutch defenders.

#1040 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Last time I checked BoP was a DP product. TBL is also a DP product. That means they can allocate money to one or the other as much as they want.

Thankfully you obviously have no role in any organization's accounting. It's not about what they spend on, its how the money is accounted for, how its recognized, where, taxed, and more. Add into that separate LEGAL entities, under different jurisdictions and nations.. and it gets even thicker.

But yeah, your 'its our money' simple approach is probably just like the thinking of DP and why they appear to be oblivious to the consequences of their actions.

#1044 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Dude - I was referring to the license issues and ongoing business as being resolvable and not the business relationship between Phil and DP.

What I was posting applies to the licensing relationship too... unilateral moves without respect for consequences or reasoning.

Go back and see, I already posted that I think the game and it's IP are still viable *if* the parties involved are ameanable... but while the IP conflicts are one of the sources of conflict, I personally think it's the least of their issues when it comes to sustainability. If UNI were to play it chill, all of those issues from a legal standpoint are easily resolved. But their problems seem to be more in house than with UNI.

#1047 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Is that illegal showing their vision?

It depends entirely on their licensing agreement with the other party. It's also a completely different beast when you are talking about content that is not approved from your licenser vs. content from someone you aren't in a good faith arrangement with AT ALL.

There is also the problem of 'willful disregard' if you know, and do it anyways.

The point of the earlier discussion was that simply the fact it's a prototype or not sold yet is NOT a blanket escape to use other people's IP without consent as many here tried to claim.

IF you can show or promote content before final approvals, or show any incomplete work would be a matter of the agreement between the licenser and licensee. Which is why we can't say anything about if there were actual violations or not. All we know is Phil's comments that the content shown was NOT approved, and from his interpretation of their agreement, they should not have been showing.

#1054 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

I've come to realize you just like to argue. Ride that light cycle into my ignore list.

And I've come to realize some people simply can't handle being held to accuracy and logic and instead hide in misdirection and falsehoods. Whatever floats your boat.

#1055 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

I think the best chance for TBL to get made would be for DP to sell their design to Stern or JJP and have them build the games and handle all of the business/legal stuff for them.

Why would Stern want a design that doesn't use their parts, platform, or software? They'd basically be buying a playfield design and concept and would start all over.

#1058 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

within a time span of 30 hours these guys have fallen from pinball gods (just read the older threads on TBL here on Pinside) to a bunch of amateurs that even can't tie their own shoes.

Perception and image vs reality...

No one has questioned their game or their ability to design it... but they apparently need some serious advise when it comes to running a business.

#1067 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

This seems to be the flip side of what has happened with p-roc (and like products) opening up the possibilities for small pinball manufacturers. You start with building the pinball, and there is a large lack of expertise in other needed areas of the company, combined with the "easy money" of pre-orders and lack of accountability.

An astute observation. The more recent evolution where the possibility to get all the major game components 'off the shelf' and less need to do materials manufacturing yourself can lead people into thinking all they need to do is have the design and they can simply act as an integrator to get a game built. Combine that with the recent phenom of crowd funding, and the possibilities are pretty exciting and encouraging. But we've all heard the tune before... about how hard it is to actually build games.

To break out of the constraints of the established companies, you gotta go out on your own... but alas even if all you are doing is integrating components.. you can't really operate in this modern age as a full fledged business without the sound business practices. Too much liability, too much regulation, etc.

I love the idea of pinball startups. But there are some pieces you just can't skip if you want succeed in the long run.

#1073 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Another assumption. Why not the other way around?

Why don't you start off with trying to overcome the facts of the matter before you throw everything out as 'assumptions'.

Answer us this.. what is 'perception' about DP's inability to manage the US entity and it's assets?

Here's what I know... when I leave my company, they'll escort me and cut off my access within hours. They will legally isolate me and dissolve my ability to act on the company's behalf. They will initiate steps to reclaim any company assets I have. They will ensure customers or those that need things I was responsible for have alternative contacts and a way to ensure business continuity within a short period of time with my departure.

Why? Because that's what you do to ensure an individuals actions do not cause harm or disruptions to your business.

Please tell us what reality you see about Dutch Pinball USA. I'm all ears.

#1080 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Come on guys, give these people some credit here. You all saw the TBL prototype. You all saw the bowling alley underneath that play field. You saw the way they used a special produced computer screen in the back box and you saw the software, even if it was only 15% ready. You can hardly call that "taking stuff off the shelve and stick it together".

As someone that is actually responsible for product development in real life.. not just on the internet.. getting prototypes done and sexy is a great win, but it's not the war. Many a good effort or idea has died or been dramatically crippled as something goes from 'my personal pet' to global product.

The fit and finish of their prototype was amazing... I think it speaks volumes to the talent they assembled. But also striking from their company bio is where is the expertise in administration, operations, and background OUTSIDE of the creative group. The kind of grievances seen here really highlight that omission.

#1084 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

All we know right now is that DP was not willing to unwind their business deal with Phil on Phil's terms. We don't know what those terms were or if they involved money.

No, we also know they failed to **secure** their US entity in face of an employee situation that posed a huge liability for them including customer funds.

Whatever the outcome with Phil would be... they needed to address their US entity and secure their ongoing operation and assets. Obviously they didn't.

#1088 5 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

What F'd up companies have you worked for?

Apparently not dutch companies...

All tho we have acquired and assimilated ones!

#1091 5 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

the rest of the reality is that he really has no clue how business in the united states works, and what the legal requirements are surrounding MANY different things...
oh, and, "we should cut them a break for cutting corners, look how fast they did a prototype"... all the while ignoring the fact that it's easy to do stuff quicker if you don't bother playing by the rules...

seems legit..

#1113 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

So now they want to dissolve DP USA, Inc *after* they deliver all the pre-orders that were paid through them? That's the only way they will let Phil out? Why would that be?

My guess is that moving the money is expensive due to paypal/exchange rates/etc. I would have said accounting reasons... but those appear to be out the window

but add it to the list of questions DP should address (why DP USA is still needed) in that coming out party

#1160 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Doesn't sound like that's the issue here. Phil didn't want to be bought out, he was trying to give everything away. It's fine if you want to be careful about liabilities etc, but you don't leave someone who's bailed in charge of a company bank account if that's the kind of approach you have.

But if your company has liabilities... as a partner he shares in those liabilities. He can't just drop the mic and walk away from that. Another new partner would have to assume those liabilities and future. Kind of puts a damper on just handing it over to someone. He can say he doesn't demand any compensation, but his ownership of the liability must be assumed somewhere.

but so much depends on how the company is formed, who has what roles, etc. I don't know where DP USA is formed. The website lists it as Dutch Pinball USA Inc - claiming a corporation and not a LLC, etc.

This is where it's complicated and it's not just a matter of 'let me go'. But its extremely difficult to evaluate when we don't know the formation of the organization

#1179 5 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

Why would anyone be personally liable for that money? We don't take someone's personal assets away if the corporation they partially own fails (yes there are exceptions to that rule). And why would one partner be liable for the corporation's liabilities and the other two not?

Your point about the exceptions is the important point. There are exceptions to the limited liability of a corporation when there is fraud or illegal activity that would harm the company... or people improperly using corp assets. Both of which are part of the claims going on here.

I think what you see here at the core is a difference in opinion on what is considered risky behavior or not.. the two dutch owners think no... phil thought yes. The corporation wouldn't shield them individually necessarily and hence the fear.

#1210 5 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

To DP - Best business practice Dissolve DP-USA if that is what needs to be done to let Phil go...but before doing so refund all of the pre order money to US buyers no questions asked.

I agree.. but legit question... without the US company, are US based TBL buyers willing to pay the higher costs and hassles that will come with buying imported games? Or pay the higher costs so that DP can find a domestic distributor? Given the direct sales model they had, one would question if they have the margins built in already to support distribution.

Sadly in the end I imagine all of this will eventually boil down to how much money DP needs to cover to make it all feasible.

#1253 5 years ago
Quoted from Rick432:

Okay, thanks for that.
But InsertMedia would still be required to put the money BACK into the DP-BV and DP-US entities for the purposes of their products (to date, only TBL), right? One couldn't simply channel money from DP-BV/-US to InsertMedia without expecting some recompensation back into DP-BV/-US, right?

To keep it simple.. a company can give the money to the other company.. they just have to account for it and categorize it properly so it hits the books correctly for taxing and auditing purposes.

What they can't be doing is incurring an expense in company A... then simply tell company B to pay the bill without any more reconciliation between A/B and the accounting.

#1272 5 years ago

well I called the Roger Sharpe angle... glad they were able to enlist his experience on this. I wasn't sure how free he is to do this type of contracting/consulting. I have a feeling though with all his years and reputation, Roger isn't the type that will tolerate loose-y/goose-y grey area stuff. Do it right or I am out of here...

I hope they can continue to get the help they need to right this ship

#1347 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Everyone keeps saying "dissolve the corporation....run the corporation....1/3 of the corporation" but why are there no incorporation documents registered?

I've been trying to find that myself.. but am no expert on corporate research Was hoping Phil or someone else would chime in with the answer when I asked where they are incorporated. I haven't found any traces of LLCs or Corps in Illinois's online system or Delaware.

#1413 5 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

He has created panic among the preorders

Panic because it was false? Or panic because people finally got to see behind the curtain?

Should we go back and lookup the posts about when Phil left in the first place? It's virtually deja vu... people complaining about lack of meeting commitments, lack of details from DP, etc

Some of the foreshadowing there is epic.. like this post

Quoted from iceman44:

That's a joke right? Haha The marketing guy is the bookkeeper too.

- in response to someone recalling Phil handled deposits..

Another fun one...

Quoted from Nikonokin:

It's obvious they have a disagreement and can't come to terms, and that email was a punch from Phil. If they were parting amicably we would have received a newsletter or email from DP explaining, not a one off from Phil with no solid info. That's a sign they had a falling out and he's pissed. Our pin is fine. Our marketing in the air. Phil did a great job btw...but randomly sending that email was clearly his way at lashing out.

Then it gets real good as Phil hints about the looming problems.. and we get this kind of response. What a setup for what's to come..

Quoted from aeonblack:

If you're going to air your dirty laundry in public, you might as well put your shitty underwear out too.
Phil already made it the business of people other than those involved when he sent out that email. He did it in a manner that struck me (and many others) as spiteful. Then he came here and made a comment that also struck me as spiteful. He put it out in the open, and if he's half the man people here talk him up to be, he'll either put up (further information on the subject) or shut up. Quite frankly, he should shut up, as he probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place.
But, at the end of the day: fuck it, let's go bowling.

NOTICABLY absent from the current thread is Mr68 who was working hard to say 'nothing to see here...' oops.. egg's on you.

But this is my favorite in hindsight...

Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Too ignore road signs is literally stupid. Now they can also be misread but certainly don't ignore them.

#1550 5 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

Sourced out to who?
Stern or JJP?Because those are the only pinball factories I know of.Incidentally that would cost money too.

To a electronics assembly contractor - the same kind of company that builds your electronics, etc. These types of contract manufacturers exist everywhere. From the PCB to assembled, packed product, these kinds of companies exist to manufacturer other people's products.

It's not a pinball-only factory

#1630 5 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Even showing money leaving a paypal account and moving between entities does not mean that anything illegal or unethical was done, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why it may have been done.

Certainly there is not only one possible outcome.. but it does raise smoke. Especially when its done without suitable explanation between the partners.

Quoted from rosh:

The hiring of Roger Sharpe did not happen in response to this weeks drama, it occurred when Phil indicated he no longer wanted to be involved

Source? This also flies in the face of Phil's version of the story and his motivations to leave. If they had brought in an experienced industry person to address the licensing issues and help advise the group... don't you think that would have been a huge relief to Phil? And consolidation for why he should stay on.. and be part of the pitch to him on why he should stay on? Turning a blind eye to all the licensing concerns was the major instigator that pushed Phil out and why he continued to fear he was exposed as they moved forward. Remember, Barry was still trying to keep Phil involved ('just pay the invoices') and sooth him (the proposal on Dec 4 to dissolve DP USA after shipment)... certainly Sharpe's involvement would be part of that conversation.

Quoted from rosh:

This also shows the DP clearly wants to do things the right way.

If that were the case... we wouldn't be here. I think it shows DP's resolve to keep moving FORWARD and willing to invest to make that happen.

#1655 5 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

We don't know if there was or weren't we are getting Phil's presentation of the facts. Maybe it was discussed with him and he disagreed with doing it, does not mean it was wrong, but he still chose to throw it out here as 'theft' (at least I believe he made that accusation).

He didn't. That was pinside applying their own twist.

Quoted from rosh:

I have had many conversations with members of the DP team and heard about Roger being involved long before this past weekend, and as I think has been posted Roger was involved in other DP projects relative to licensing. I do not know if it occurred before or after Phil left, so I was not totally clear about that in my post. As I just wrote in another response, I would tend to think it was after, since taking on that extra expense when you already had someone doing it, does not make sense to me -- but I do not know the exact timing of it.

I'd wager he was involved with Williams regarding the Bride project as that is obvious given the other party in the discussion. If Roger was there advising them on TBL... it clearly would have altered the story and situation of Phil. Phil's moves were out of desperation and being ignored. Given the cited examples... I can not see an experienced guy like Sharpe blessing those moves and Phil was the lone outsider. It just doesn't add up. Not in DP's actions, not in what would have pushed Phil over the edge, not in the attempted reconciliations, nothing...

#1660 5 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

PPS was the other party in the discussion - BOP 2.0 is an agreement between DP and PPS ... PPS worked with wms to get an agreement that they would sign off on

Thanks for chipping in. I didn't mean to infer the license was through Roger instead of PPS.. but only that he has been involved with WMS IP and maybe was a player in from their side.

#1901 5 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Please everyone stop saying Phil left the company 6 weeks ago. You don't just leave a company you own and expect it to stop your responsibility with a lousy email.

Correct - but when you have a disgruntled partner who wants nothing but out... you don't ignore that and say "please keep being our cashier and on the front line". You move onto isolating them, removing their responsibility, and how to transition your legal responsibilities. It seems Barry and Co. just want to ignore Phil's demands and shove it to his desk to handle. We've seen how well that's gone...

Instead they keep pointing to Phil to address the refund requests instead of treating it as a Dutch Pinball problem in front of the customer a problem they can't handle immediately but respond they will address it.

#1940 5 years ago
Quoted from Biv:

He is the one in control of the original Paypal account and has no intention of giving that to Barry or Jaap, till the DP USA ownership is dealt with.
So they 're stuck with him doing the refunds as these have to come from the very same account all the people payed into.
Sure, they could have left that "Phil is in charge" out, and told us a lie or something else why the progress of the refunds are beeing stalled.
But at the moment they cannot do anything themself in this regard, so why promise anything?

They haven't laid anything out to say they are taking charge of the DP USA situation... simply pushing the buck back to Phil for these customers. That is not how a company takes ownership of a situation and shields its customers.

#2029 5 years ago

Funny, the dutch defense team went silent when the posts of Barry basically passed the buck and said 'talk to phil'. I guess that whole "its all dutch pinball they can move money anywhere they want" mindset only works when it's convenient for you.

It's messy - but they need to be honoring their promise on refunds.. not making internal issues customer issues. If they means money from themselves or their investors or their piggy banks in Holland.. it should be happening.

Just add it to the list of stupid business moves.

#2065 5 years ago
Quoted from swf127:

Yep, with one down on account of health, another on account of bereavement and a third that really may not have access to the funds. If a majority of the clientele went to Fidelity and demanded their money back they would wait up to a week before a check would even be cut. I would expect this to take weeks if not a month or two to sort out if Phil is the gatekeeper to the domestic accounts.

So their answer should be that 'we can't process it immediately due to the current situation, but we will honor your request and will do so with an ETA of xyz'. Instead we get "we forwarded your request... have a nice day". Passing the buck due to internal strife that the customer shouldn't be exposed to.

People slammed Phil for airing all the laundry and pointing fingers... wtf do you think Barry is doing here? Basically playing Pontius Pilate and saying it's for Phil to address.

Could just be language barrier too.. but again.. when dealing with customers in distress you give them ASSURANCES not raw facts that unpolished with just infuriate the customer more. This is basic customer service here...

#2079 5 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I find it interesting how they were OK with spending money out of the DP USA account for other project's expenses, but when people who paid into DP USA want refunds, all of a sudden it's not OK for them to spend other projects money to give refunds?
Why can't they give people refunds out of the other accounts and replenish it with the money Phil has once they get it from him?

Theorizing... because they would like to maintain the paypal transaction integrity. This keeps disputes, fees, etc all 'connected' in the paypal world and they don't have to face currency issues, etc. I'm sure those are all reasons why 'keeping it simple' is the best option for them in the sense of money and long term transaction integrity (and accounting). Ignoring all that probably creates a lot more liabilities they'd want to avoid.. nevermind if the capital is available.

IMO - the issue is the passing of the buck and lack of OWNING the problem as Dutch Pinball in the face of the customer. Delays in getting the funds are normal (IMO)... but the lack of owning the problem for the customer is the unacceptable part to me.

#2091 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

WTF? First there is lots of fuss (also from you) that they aren't open and fair enough to the buyers, not enough info, no complete info. And now, when they communicate it "as it is", you're accusing them of communicating "raw facts", suggesting they better cover things up?!

Your comprehension blows... and no I did not suggest anything you posted.

Customer Service includes knowing what details are relevant, what information is suitable for public consumption, and what process steps are germane to the customer's experience. Managing customer expectations does not include dumping YOUR problems onto the customer as excuses.

There are problems all the time with customer service because people say STUPID THINGS they shouldn't... because they are oblivious to what customer service is and how you interact with customers. And then there are just stupid people who will defend something blindly...

#2093 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Maybe some facts for the people that are interested. :
- DP has outsourced the production to an other company in the Netherlands
- DP uses common industy parts.
- DP uses common assamblies for flippers, popbumpers etc. (that's why you have the B/W feeling)
- DP team sure as hell don't drive expencive cars.
- DP has 5 working prototypes. 3 in US and 2 in NL (4 more then most botique's)
- DP has a lot of pinball enthousiasts in there team
- TBL is using american size bolt, nuts and screws (not Metric!)

I am a car enthusiast with my friends
I have a car built by one of the world's most successful companies
I use parts from established vendors
I use an established garage to do my work
I have modified cars I've created with the above

All nice things to mitigate risks, but do not alone give me a good success of me starting a Custom Car company.

Your list is nice, but incomplete in terms of what would be necessary to pitch a success story. It shows a list of things to be excited about and tries to speak to concerns from other projects (parts feel, starting a factory, two guys and a dog, etc). It's sorely lacking in key areas they have demonstrated problems with. Business management, global company experience, product delivery, support, etc.

#2123 5 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

It is safe to assume the other accounts are empty.
The last bit of cash was in the USA account.
That is why they had Phil paying the bills.

Not necessarily - it could have just been them trying to pay bills in the domestic market and currency. The problem comes with the accounting, not motivation or necessity.

I personally have little doubt in DP's financial situation. They've managed to build tons of custom parts in finish quality, they've built several custom games, they've made several trips including multiple people and expensive freight... all without selling anything yet. Certainly the money may have all run out after all this... but they didn't seed with the change in the couch. Someone in the mix has deep pockets.. and if so, they'd want to get their project to the actually selling part. If that means fronting a few dozen refunds.. I'd imagine that wouldn't kill them.

Someone is rich in this story...

1 week later
#2288 5 years ago

follow the dancing light...

#2537 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

... One of Phil´s stated reasons for wanting out was the licencing issues, but we have since found out that there are no real issues here...

No - it is simply that things were not fatal to the project and the licensing arrangement is still viable. That does not mean the other stuff didn't happen or that it was necessarily legit - it just means they have been able to keep it from stopping the project

1 month later
#3236 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Spot the difference anyone:

Pre approved playfield.jpg 99 KB

3e428cc9-1a38-488f-a8fc-910cc883... 206 KB

They swapped stuff around to replace the pot leaf and gun

They moved the cassette tape on the left side from above the toliet to below to replace the pot leaf.. and put a cell phone in it's place

They moved the crowbar up to where the briefcase was, and moved the briefcase to where the gun was. They filled the crowbar hole with some white paper(?).

The kahlua insert

They added new art in front of the stationary targets to each side of the rug

They changed the girl's art on the left orbit and got rid of the fork going between her legs

I'm not sure why they highlighted the right sling? don't see much different there


1 week later
#3477 4 years ago
Quoted from cudabee:

Americans are almost always refusing to give their bank info for some reason.
In Europe we give that same info all day long.
I once bought a car in florida where the owner opened up a new bankaccount for me to send the money, since he refused to give me his regular account info. I mean, how can you transfer money by bank when you don't share your number? And what mishab can you commit when holding that number, is unclear to me.

The very short version of it is... the way you can send money between account holders in Europe differs from the US. You have it great, we still suck at it.. and why companies like Paypal exist

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