(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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10
#504 5 years ago

I can see things from both camps here. Phil wanted everything more “clean”, but let’s be honest: the guys at DP have made a working prototype in an amazingly short amount of time. You don’t get there by following all the red tape. I’m sure some corners were cut (heavily perhaps) but getting a real machine out there for us pinball guys to touch was the first big hurdle and I guess they wanted to get there as fast as possible, maybe underestimating the legal impact of (just a) prototype. But if you have a work in progress and you're "trying out stuff", you can't legalize every soundbit or playfield idea first. You need to get things done, test the effects on your audience and after positive reviews you'll want to take care of legal stuff. Maybe not the perfect way of doing business, but we're not talking about Stern here with 60 people on staff...

IMHO Phil is trying to hurt these guys as hard as he can, spilling all he knows about TBL and DP and sharing it here. Not even close to professional, even regarding his very unfortunate health problems and the harm DP might have been doing to him. But so far I have only read HIS side of the story.

Don't forget: up until now this thread isn't even 24 hours old, so let's hold our horses for now and wait for some official reaction on how DP wants to treat this shitstorm of corporate info Phil has just tossed here on the forum...

BTW: yes, I'm Dutch but I'm not affiliated to DP in any way

#520 5 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

regardless of whether you have 60 people or 1 person "on staff", that's not an excuse for cuttting legal corners...
as a businessperson, you ALWAYS "take care of the legal stuff" FIRST... you don't float a prototype that you aren't damn sure that you have the right to produce... doing so leaves your butt exposed on both sides, both with the licensor and the potential buyer...

So you have experience building pin balls? In that case, I rest my case. In any other case, let me explain what I mean...

"Taking care of legal stuff" has a very wide perspective here. As I stated already: there isn't a single machine produced at this moment, so considering that, there IS NO LEGAL ISSUE YET. When you start making money using someone else's face, music or brand name, you're in trouble. These guys have most of the legal issues taken care of and are still sorting out other legal stuff, considering if it's ($$) worth while putting it in the definitive product. These licensing things kind of run parallel to developing the machine itself. While doing all that, they still want/need to show off a prototype and yes, that prototype will have stuff in it that has not been taken care of legally. Is that a problem? Probably, but is it a BIG problem? I'm not sure. What I do know is that Phil took the last 24 hours to TURN it into this big problem, making people doubt everything that has been done here. Phil could have walked a different path, called a lawyer or something that could pull his ass out of this company, but he chose to dump all his pain here, where it hurts DP the most. He chose to throw shit at his "friends". Typical. Have all Phil's claims been verified? Nope, just a pile of (doctored??) screen prints.

We can all have an opinion here, that's why it is a forum, but all we have here are Phil's rants and many people are already looking for their life vests. I think that's called "overreacting".

Let's give DP a chance to make an official statement and also consider the fact that one of their members first has a chance to take care of his personal family grief. As I said before: this is a small, dedicated group of people, not a large company with 10 people in the marketing department.

#567 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

I love how your telling people what to do with their hard earned money. Cause that's what your saying. Don't bail out,,, they can't build a game with out us... Assume the risk... Ha

That's not what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that in a time frame of just 24 hours people jump to the most ridiculous conclusions here with just ONE side of the story.

But hey, who am I, right?

#595 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

And I won't give them my idea for putting a real speedometer on the center shot (two sensors), so not only does your shot have to be perfectly straight, but it also has to be (scaled speed) faster than 88 miles an hour to light the flux capacitor.

BTW: that one is sooooo old. Vector anyone?

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I won't even tell Gary or Jack my idea of using a machine as a jukebox. Plugging in a USB with music, and using the flippers to forward and reverse, having the machine light up to the beat.

I think Gary could come up with that idea in his sleep, after making Metallica...

-1
#639 5 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

I think this one, with a former employee showing emails and divulging behind-the-door company info, takes the cake.

It sure says something about that person...

-14
#668 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Funny... I thought people loved folks like wiki leaks or snowden. I guess it depends on who they are outting to some people

I don't like people like Snowden. They tend to reveal lots of secrets trying to prove their point, hurting lots of other people along the way. In Snowden's case this has been proven already. The big picture is not the goal anymore, it's trying to prove YOU are right, not caring about the fallout for all other people conceirned. We still haven't seen any concrete proof here, just a bunch of onesided accusations. And it's a pity how some people here take only that info to blow it all up to Hiroshima proportions without even waiting for a reply from the other side of this vicious fight. It's been 24 hours, FGS...

#678 5 years ago
Quoted from movingpictures:

Shocking, really.
It is extremely clear that the two sides are no longer able to negotiate.
Perhaps mediators are the next step.

I can quite understand that after being stabbed in the back 24 times

-4
#692 5 years ago
Quoted from ChrisVW:

What decision?

To sabotage DB and TBL I guess...

-10
#710 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Exactly. Meaning a full day, and zero response to the actual issues. They obviously know about it, people are getting private replies from Barry. They still did the DP party in NY. I'm sure they have their side of the story. Maybe Phil isn't 100% in the right here. But speaking of FGS, if you take thousands of dollars from people and the sky looks like it's falling, then you don't get to just chill and party and take your time, you need to reassure people.

You guys seem to forget that DP is not just Barry, it's 2 guys: Barry and Jaap. I assume they need to talk to each other about a proper reaction.

Maybe some of you are too damn busy setting up this lynch party that you stopped reading here, so I'll just type it for the third time, this time in capitals:

JAAP JUST BURIED HIS MOTHER YESTERDAY AND BARRY IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PLANET FROM HIM.

Maybe this puts things a little bit in perspective when it comes to giving these guys some time to react to this raving lunatic...

-1
#772 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Yeah its the customers fault... Mmmmkay

oh my god, this is fucking unbelievable...

#778 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Its unbelievable that im taking a stand for the customers you're berating because they want their money back on this whole mess? You're taking my comment out of context, I am in no way saying anything about the death of a family member.

Well, yes you are!! I just told you the reason why an answer might be a bit longer than you paranoid guys might expect it and you just turn it around, saying "it's the customers fault?". You are TOTALLY turning my words around and you're not even seeing it yourself. That's plain pathetic...

#873 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Mario, tell Barry that what he is doing is illegal. Tell him to STOP following Jaap's advice. Tell him to stop going to these shows - I told him NO on Houston. No to NYC. With no finished machine, they just cost lots of money, for little return.
Tell him to ignore fake deadlines and made up sales targets. Let him just focus on making a good machine, and be open about it. The sales will come LATER.
We know the Pin community is harsh, but it is also VERY understanding if they know what's going on.

Before I start receiving death threats: I can't tell him, I only met these guys once at DPO and don't know them personally. By accident, I live in the same country. What I do know is that it's hard to recover from all the trash that's been posted here by their "good friend"...

But hey, I can understand the reactions here. I followed the TBL threads a bit:

from "WOW, there's going to be a TBL machine! Great! Epic! Wonderful!",

then to "WTF is this? Only a shitty paper? I think it's all a load of crap..."

to "Holy cow! These guys have a working prototype in just 3 days! Halleluja!"

again within 20 hours to "OMG, Phil has really opened our eyes! This is all a big scheme to "DP" us and take our money"

and even with some "I bet we can do this better ourselves, in 15 minutes we could set up shop".

If it didn't cause so much damage, I would actually LMAO with all this soap...
But I guess that is Pinside. It's like a Borderline personality on steroids...

#876 5 years ago
Quoted from Magic_Mike:

I'm starting to wonder whether Phil may have inadvertently sabotaged this project by spooking out everybody over issues that may have already been worked out.

I was thinking exactly the same here...

Quoted from pinballslave:

Another thing that's confusing me is how does publically stating that he's a thief help either DP (who you wish success to) or yourself... or anyone?

It will not. It will only start the "let's all leave the ship" scenario that bankrupted even the biggest banks in the last few years.

#885 5 years ago
Quoted from frg:

But being faced with these "facts", I would not write a single line in this forum without having in depth legal advice by an expert, if I was Barry or Jaap. Maybe that is why we havn't heard anything of them right now. We are not only speaking of refunds but also about massive! licencing issues, which can outnumber the refund liabilities by far.

I agree. And I would also wait a while for things to settle down. We all know you can't really talk to or reason with an angry lynch mob...

Phil has said a lot and it's sad to see that many people all take his "evidence" as real facts and are already drawing conclusions based on that. If there are any people in this thread that went through a rough patch with their employer (maybe even resulting in losing their job) then they know what a single sided view that results in. If your employer is your best friend, as Phil states, this is even worse! All you want is prove you're right and bending the truth a bit or leaving out important details that could harm your point of view is the way to go then. Posting cash deposits to DP-BV stating that "it's them getting out the cash and using it for something else (where is the proof of THAT?) is nothing more than twisting reality. In every company there will be funds from one project used for another, that's not a big deal.

I think everything that Phil did in this thread is MUCH MORE HARMFUL than the actual truth about the status of licenses, financials and planning of TBL and BoB.

#890 5 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

From everything I've read, including the correspondence screenshots, he has bent over backwards trying to get the Dutch guys to step up and do things the right way. They essentially forced him to do this.

I don't agree here. Once Phil started his mission, all the dirt came in a matter of 24 hours. No time to react to that because there ARE people around that aren't on Pinside 24/7...

-4
#896 4 years ago
Quoted from F3TT:

Assuming everything Phil has written is true, I agree with his decision 100%. The man has a wife, young children, AND cancer! That means he has medical bills I cringe to think about. The guys in Holland are doing things with Universal's intellectual property that they should not be doing. Hollywood doesn't play games when it comes to this stuff. They will sue and ruin anyone they can over something like this.

"Assuming" being the operative word here.

I'm with pinballslave here. Every conclusion being drawn in this thread, every person trying to get out of this pre-order (which all of these guys paid with their sane minds, I assume), it all comes from the assumption that everything that Phil has written is the untainted truth. And there is also a lot of assumptions and conjecture on Phil's side, because he states "Barry has taken the €60.000" conjecturing that the money ended up in Barry's pocket.

Talking about law suits: isn't there a law agains slander? Over here in The Netherlands there is. If I destroy or even hurt a company using slander (even if it's based on (a partial) truth) you can get sued and pay a steep fine. I'm not sure if Phil considered this when he was busy getting himself "off the hook".

What I see is a man under the influence of his medical condition. Sure, it's very tough and I feel sorry for him, but it does not approve the way he handled things. It's the easiest and dirtiest way out of a legal commitment he put himself into to begin with. He keeps saying that he started asking 6 weeks ago, but what is 6 weeks when you need to arrange paperwork for foreign people to take over a US based company AND trying to build a pinball along the way? Sure, these Dutch guys may have been a bit tardy when it came to dissolving their legal bond with Phil, but does that make them deserve this shit storm? The only thing I have seen Phil do is dumping shit on Pinside to force them to dump him. To get approval from "the audience" for his actions.

And here he is: Phil the hero. You pre-order guys don't even realize that HE could very well be the main reason that you paid a lot of money and don't see a TBL pinball at the end of the line. As stated here: money has been invested in license and prototyping, so it's clear that not all money can come out when things go wrong. You can't see that Snowden caused 10 US soldiers their lives because of things he uncovered (that also got in the hands of our enemies), but hey, he uncovered a CIA plot against us civilians! Let's honor him...

#924 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL HIM TO CALL ME.

I think you burned that bridge some 24 hours ago...

#934 4 years ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

i've bitten my tounge throughout this thread, but just can't resist anymore...
phil, what you've done in the last couple of days, w the refunds and your posts on pinside is the single most unprofessional thing I've ever witnessed in business, EVER. seriously man, not even just in the pinball business, but in the history of business across the board. you did it, you acheived this status which makes you completely worthless in the job market going forward. who the hell would ever trust you to handle anything related to their company? regardless of whether DP is legit or a fraud, your actions have shown me personally that you are a liability at all levels. finance, marketing, and most importantly... loyalty.
why wouldn't you handle this the way any other sane business person would? get a lawyer! if you're truly that concerned about you're own safety and well-being, that's what a professional does. when this inevidibly hits the legal stage, and you have to actually seek counsel, what do you think your lawyer's going to say when you tell him/her that you issued unrequested refunds, went public about your feelings on a pinball forum, and dragged your ex-employers' names through the mud??? he/she won't want to go near that case. you've made yourself look like a spoiled 12 yo girl who didn't get a pony for her birthday, so she's holding her breath, stomping her foot and telling the neighbors that her daddy touched her.
what you've done is an intentional character assassination w a obvious vendetta, all disguised as a Robin Hood scheme. me, nor my money will ever go anywhere near anything you're even slightly involved in, and I suggest that pinsiders follow my lead.
the real question is, how the hell did you get hired in the first place?!?

Finally someone who really sees it for what it is...

#938 4 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

You applaud sanity and encourage insanity all within 2 lines. Hmm... Regardless of who's right or wrong (seems to me there are mostly degrees of wrong on all DP parties) how you could possibly suggest someone keeping their money in on this is beyond me?

Because a lot of the stuff ventilated was done so by a man who is clearly clouded by his emotions? Because this whole endeavor deserves some REAL investigating before people jump off ship like a chicken with his head cut off? Because in the end, DP might just go under BECAUSE of all the damages done by these accusations and wild rants and people jumping ship because of it?

#958 4 years ago

Yeah, like that's a very mature reply... I could also turn that one around easily.

#974 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Oh, I don't know, hauling around two pinball machines without proper licensing and displaying them in public within the united states is illegal. These business aren't your buddies, that you can have a beer with and laugh about it and 'make it right'. They will sue you for everything you have.

Immature AND a lawyer. Admirable

#988 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

At least this way many people have gotten their money clear of the DP mess. Phil may have gone down in flames blazing... but at least the innocents are better off from it.

yup, until the truth comes out and Phil's accusations turn out to be taken out of context or only partially true and it's just these accusations that kill off DP and any chance of the remaining people getting back their money. Sure, Phil will still be a hero to the 5 people he refunded, but for the rest of them he will be the ignition switch to this expensive detonation...

-4
#1011 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

'resolvable' if both parties were participating... and that was the problem. Party 2 was ignoring party 1 and dragging party 1 down with their unilateral decisions.
Its like being dragged around on a leash... you can chose not to to walk, but the leash still drags you forward. That's what was happening here.

No, that's not "what's happening here". What's happening here is that Phil TOLD you that this was happening. You chose to believe it as a FACT, not me.

Then you post "your 2 cents" acting like you've worked with Stern or Bally/Williams and know how they handle their license stuff?

#1023 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

- Company assets are not a personal slush fund to just reallocate like your personal piggy bank. There are accounting implications on what and where money is associated with.

Last time I checked BoP was a DP product. TBL is also a DP product. That means they can allocate money to one or the other as much as they want.

-1
#1032 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

OK so here is my take on it
1.) Barry may have taken money from DP USA to fund trips to promote TBL and finish off BOP2.0
2.) Universal has not agreed the Playfield art work- on the flyer I have seen DP did state in a big black box "artwork subject to change.
3.) Barry has not responded to Phil asking to be disbanded from DP.
4.) phil has done this for two resons because he is worried that pre-order customers won't get a game because UNIVERSAL will pull licence & he will face legal action if this happens
Is this the jist of it?

I don't think so. In my opinion this should be:

1.) Barry may have taken money from one DP project and put it into another DP project.
2.) Universal has given DP a license for TBL, but with lots of legal stuff to live by. DP has crossed some of these legal limits in their enthusiastic efforts to create this really nice pinball machine. I haven't seen anything that indicates that they are in REAL trouble with Universal, just a few slaps on the wrist.
3.) Phil STATES that Barry did not respond to his asking to be disbanded. This did not came falling from the skies 6 weeks ago, some arguments must have preceded this and Phil only showed the ugly tail of it, not it's precedings.
4.) Phil has done this ONLY because he is afraid of his family facing legal issues, NOT for helping people get their money back. In fact: his literal words in this thread are: "Please Barry & Jaap, take this DP-US company from my hands and transfer all funds, you can stick the money in your mattresses, I don't care". Not something somebody would say if he was concerned with your money...

-3
#1036 4 years ago
Quoted from Rossz:

This is the way of thinking which crashed lots of companies...

No, it's a simple way of doing business. Maybe companies like Texaco or Toyota use this way of doing business, but a small company like DP uses it's cash flow on current projects and they are not going to stick every penny in a pot marked TBL or BoP.

#1043 4 years ago
Quoted from Rossz:

Maybe you've heard of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron_scandal
Small companies still have to respect accounting rules, even from project to project, and especially when there's an oversea sister-company.
I guess you and I aren't accountant so maybe I'm wrong, but maybe you too.

I'm not an accountant either, but I DO own a company myself that pulled in 2.000.000 Euro's last year. And I can tell you: over here in The Netherlands there is no such thing as project based funding or accounting rules for companies this "small". As long as you're sticking to your core business, you can take funds from one project and use it for another.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Thankfully you obviously have no role in any organization's accounting.

Nah. My company only existed for 30 years because I was so sloppy...

#1051 4 years ago
Quoted from Jakenjoi:

They haven't even shipped product A, and there wasn't even enough money from product B preorders to pay for the parts to fill the overdue orders of product A.

So you've seen the books haven't you?

Some of you are the best in making assumptions based on other assumptions. I know for a fact that there actually IS a production facility and that these guys are looking further ahead than you give them credit for. Sure, there are things they could have handled better, I will not argue there, but it's their first complete machine and within a time span of 30 hours these guys have fallen from pinball gods (just read the older threads on TBL here on Pinside) to a bunch of amateurs that even can't tie their own shoes.

#1062 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Perception and image vs reality...

Another assumption. Why not the other way around?

#1072 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The more recent evolution where the possibility to get all the major game components 'off the shelf' and less need to do materials manufacturing yourself can lead people into thinking all they need to do is have the design and they can simply act as an integrator to get a game built ... To break out of the constraints of the established companies, you gotta go out on your own... but alas even if all you are doing is integrating components.. you can't really operate in this modern age as a full fledged business without the sound business practices.

Come on guys, give these people some credit here. You all saw the TBL prototype. You all saw the bowling alley underneath that play field. You saw the way they used a special produced computer screen in the back box and you saw the software, even if it was only 15% ready. You can hardly call that "taking stuff off the shelve and stick it together".

They might have underestimated licensing and international business stuff here, but you can't compare some boutique pinball setup that has been working for 5 years on the same pinball design to these guys, who went from planning to actually building 5 prototypes in a matter of one year?

#1099 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

basically, his reality is "i really want this machine, and who cares what rules get broken. also, the rest of you keep your cash in the company, otherwise i won't get my machine"... the rest of the reality is that he really has no clue how business in the united states works, and what the legal requirements are surrounding MANY different things...
oh, and, "we should cut them a break for cutting corners, look how fast they did a prototype"... all the while ignoring the fact that it's easy to do stuff quicker if you don't bother playing by the rules...

You're correct with your statement that I don't know how business works in The US. But you guys are making assumptions based on one (Phil's) side of the story so I think I'm correct if I say that we're all a bit in the dark here, we are all reading a story that is based on how Phil sees things.

The following is based purely on MY VIEW:

I don't know the guys from DP that good. I think I've seen all of them once or twice in real life and all of these guys are real pinheads that love our hobby. I have had some extensive talks with some of their team (not with Barry or Jaap) and those were very nice conversations. They have real passion for what they are doing and they all have talent for one or more important discipline needed to make a wonderful pinball machine. Their prototypes have proven that. Did they underestimate US laws? I guess. Did they cut corners to get to a working prototype in time for Chicago? I'm sure they did. They followed their heart and in doing so, they tried to cut as many corners as needed without being caught, all to get the prototypes ready in time for Chicago. I think this game of trying how far they could go with Universal was part enthusiasm, part ignorance about US laws and part scheduling for a big surprise party at Chicago. Was that a stupid thing to do? Maybe. If Phil here did not turn this all into a 2 day soap like he did, none of us would probably ever hear of this story or we might learn from it as a nice side note in the Pinball Compendium "How these Dutch guys knew shit about licensing and just went along threading a thin line" (without the "shit" ofcourse).

Then why am I fighting so "ferocious"? I'm not fighting for "my TBL". I'm fighting for these guys and what they are trying to achieve. A small team of dedicated people that are trying to build a pinball machine based on a big Universal theme. I know some of their plans for music & dots and I know some of their plans for producing this wonderful machine and they are well thought plans. Will they miss a few steps in developing their first pinball machine? Hell, this thread proves just that and they will probably hit a few more brick walls along the way. But considering the limited size of their team (most of them also have a day job) and considering what they have achieved and how little time they needed to achieve it, I am still voting for them. They need to explain themselves, I see that too, but they don't deserve the amount of shit they received the last 40 hours. At least give them the benefit of the doubt, based on what they have realized up until a few days ago.

#1105 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Why is that so hard for him?

It might be the terms? Or it might be the fact that you shot so many holes in the ship before abandoning it

#1131 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Seems the sticking point was finding someone to take over the US side. Phil makes it sound like someone Dutch could just get a TIN, but I dunno if it's really that simple. I have a TIN as part of my corporation, and it was easy to get, but I'm a US citizen. Does the same apply to someone from Holland?

I don't know for sure, but I don't think so. I knew a guy from Holland that lived in The States for a couple of years, having his own exporting business and as long as he lived there he was complaining that they could kick him out of the country any time, taking away his business if his revenue dropped below some point. He needed to keep it self sustaining at every time. Eventually he left on his own free will because he was tired of that dark cloud above his head all the time.

#1134 4 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

dp-40.jpg 70 KB

Complete bullocks, I also saw a guy with a Dutch flag over here that was also concerned

#1138 4 years ago
Quoted from DutchTommy:

I wont be the judge about all this matter, as an pinball lover i find this very disturbing, as this matter will definently jeopardize the whole TBL game for sure.. but to be honest i find this thread more entertaining then prime time tv..
Where is my popcorn

If you want to read the entire thread, you'll need camping equipment...

#1159 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

Are you serious dude? Suicidal? Let's keep his illness out of this beyond "I hope you beat it and get better soon."

The guy wrote "business suicidal" man, get some reading glasses

Edit: oh wait, I see he's changed it after the fact..

#1164 4 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Did Barry's mom die, too?

Oh man, you are hilarious...

-1
#1173 4 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Oh hey I found your pic online

You need to get off DP's nuts, seriously.

Blind.jpg 7 KB

That's all some people here can do: throw personal punches instead of debating. I guess the picture of that kid is actually you... in age.

#1176 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

jayhawkai said:
Did Barry's mom die, too?

Now that made me laugh.

Then you have a real sick sense of humor....

#1189 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

People keep saying they hope the game gets built, but what is "the game" now? Even if a game did get built, nobody knows what it would look or sound like. The game is not finalized. The licensing is not approved.
I and everybody else was lead to believe that the glorious game DP was peddling at the Chicago Expo was finished, except for code. Now I find out that this is not true, which is hugely disappointing. While we are all hoping it still gets built, I am wondering what the final game would even LOOK like.
When I watched the recent video of TBL right before this all went down, I heard all of these songs playing. I thought to myself, How in the hell can they afford to use all of these songs? It is very expensive to license songs. Now it appears that they were never licensed.
This is just terrible, all around. TBL was the game that was supposed to elevate pinball, and now it has done the opposite.

The licensing for the movie IS approved. They licensed the movie, but every call out or sound bite or picture on cabinet or playfield needs to be approved separately before they can actually use it in production. Most of the music IS approved, as I understand it. Some parts of the playfield must still receive approval. The Kahlua drink did not get approved, so this must be removed, as does the gun and weed on the playfield and the Time Magazine that is in there somewhere.

So: the game will turn out mostly like the prototype. John Goodmans call outs seem to need special approval, so these need extra work but aren't disapproved yet. They are simply waiting approval.

#1195 4 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

I must have missed this when first mentioned in the thread (imagine that). Is this due the Goodman's objections or something else?

Universal stated that John Goodman can't be displayed "next to" a fire arm, that's something Mr. Goodman has demanded. The weed is something Universal asked for.

#1201 4 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

How is that working out for the 3 founders of Pirate Bay?

Not sure, since they came from Sweden...

So how is life in Canada?

#1262 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

Yeah, that's not gonna cut it for me. I'm out. I really wanted to hold in there, and that non-answer isn't enough for me.

A non-answer? They brought in Roger Sharpe for the licensing issues, which IMHO was a big deal in this whole situation. You can't call that a non-answer. I'm sure the rest of the rubble will get cleaned up in the coming period.

#1287 4 years ago
Quoted from JDee:

You know which is another recipe for disaster? Start asking for loans and investors while the boat is sinking.
This is not even funny anymore. It's a tragedy.

Well... Actually it's only a tragedy at Pinside

#1326 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

IMHO the bottom line is whatever could have been done differently is done now. Phil has cancer, he's in a jammed spot, and he's just doing what he can to get out. It's not about good guys and bad guys. We don't need to choose sides here, it's cool to want the game to be built and for the guy to take care of his health.
Japp and Barry have to divest themselves of Phil. It's what he wants, but it's also what Dutch Pinball needs. No one is going to feel comfortable until that's settled. Simple or complicated figure that shit out, and make it a priority. We don't need to know the tax details, not our problem, been enough over sharing. Just make sure you do it right and can reassure everyone.
So DP, get Roger on Universal, we all know he can handle that shit. Listen to him if he tells you to stop taking world tours with unapproved machines ffs. And get Phil out of there.
Then he can focus on trying to beat a bitch of a disease, and you can focus on trying to build a bad ass bitch of a game. This is drama, but no one wants it to be the end of anything.

Amen! Well said.

#1368 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

If it could be done that quick, one has to wonder why it took 6 weeks and all the drama.

Let's just say that priorities have shifted

-22
#1371 4 years ago

Kevin: real noble of you to do things the way you did, but also kind of naive, don't you think? This time it turned out for the good (you suvived), but what if it costed you your house? And after that maybe your marriage? Would you be typing the same message here?

I think both ways have pro's and con's. Not one way is better or worse. And hindsight is always 20/20.

-23
#1565 4 years ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

Gather the entire team together (there's like 6 to 8 dedicated folks, right?) and hold a meeting. The topic is "OK guys, we're all taking out $50,000 second mortgages leined on our homes" and/or "Everybody is going to put their credit cards on the table and/or bank cards and were going to swipe them to max them out" and/or "Everybody is going to apply for a $25,000 personal loan or line of credit from their bank". "Let's make a great investment on our great pinball and get this done!"
This goes two ways:
a) Everyone: "Absolutely!" - proof of ACTUAL dedication / belief in seeing this done
b) "Are you crazy? LOL, I'm not putting MY money into this" - the true test, and telling, no?
...
If the machine getting done is the true dream, as long as they simply break even per run (or as IPB years ago with BBB taking actual losses per machine) it gets done.

I'm sorry but that is complete BS! I know some of these guys and they all live and breathe pinball, but they are also people with a life, a spouse, a job and some of them may have children. If YOU believe this totally irresponsible way is the way to go into any business then I applaud you, but I think you're playing Russian roulette with your life...

-14
#1567 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

If what Phil says is true about Barry borrowing from TBL sales to pay for BOP, that alone tells me everything I need to know.

Please stop blowing stuff out of proportion. This is a small company and funds are used where they're needed. Please stop making such a big deal of that.

#1571 4 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I see. It is always better to play Russian roulette with other people's money.
This is why the pre-order/pre-pay model needs to go away. If one of these entities fails to deliver we will certainly lose dozens of pinheads from frustration, anger, and apathy to the hobby.

No, it's better NOT to play Russian Roulette AT ALL when running a company!

I agree with you on the whole pre-order thing, but these guys already invested a shitload of their own money and time before a single pre-order was taken. Don't make it look so black and white, like they're on a tropical island spending all these thousands on chicks & booze.

#1584 4 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

Wow!!!
Its been discussed(Skit B thread) that boutique co.s can make 2 to 3 games per week.If they are to deliver 500 games it would take 166 weeks(3 per week).

I know some of the production plans of these guys and they are not going to build games by hand on a rotisserie, it's a lot more professional than that.

#1588 4 years ago
Quoted from vex:

NoDrama-1-182.jpg 37 KB

Sorry man, but most of the drama I've seen posted here came from assumptions based on some guy screaming his head off earlier in this thread, posting one-sided rants on his phone and you're calling ME a drama queen? This is getting too weird...

#1601 4 years ago
Quoted from zsciaeount:

Even if this refund thing becomes an issue, I think it is abundantly clear how much interest there is in this project. I've never seen a session at Expo that full, or so many people discussing the game passionately.

Please, please, pleeeeease remember that guys! I'm not trying to convince you not to take a refund (well, I might be a bit ). I'm only trying to bring some balance to this thread that started out very one-sided and looked like a regular lynch mob at first. Things could have been handled better, Phil should have kept stuff in-house, Barry & Jaap should have acted sooner and the license issues should have been addressed better (although I am sure that this part of this discussion is painted worse than it actually is).

It's all water under the bridge now. If you want a refund then you should get one, I'm not going to argue that, but I'm with Burningman on the consequences: you'll loose the chrome & rug and you should get a new place in line. But you will have your money back in the bank and if that reassures you, do it! I'm staying in. Not for the chrome, not for the rug, maybe a bit for my place in line, but most of all because I believe in these guys and I think they cut some corners but they don't deserve ALL of the shit they got in this thread.

#1602 4 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

Off topic, but this cracks me up. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know. What CPR is suggesting is basically the *only* way any small business has been started in North America in the past 200 years (up until the recent past). It's called entrepreneurialship. No guts, no glory. You want the reward? Take the risk.

I guess it's a cultural thing then, because over here it's done differently (NOT saying that either way is wrong). It's the same with credit cards or loans: over here we don't like to borrow money for a vacation or a car, we only take out a loan for a house, the rest we like to pay in cash (saved money). Over in the US, borowing money for "stuff" is much more common. Which way is best? I don't know, it's a difference in culture and I think that is also the case with how DP is run and how your guys think it SHOULD be run.

-1
#1604 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Man, all these Dutch dudes, I haven't seen such a Dutch uprising since what 1566?

In 1848 we even kicked the French out, I think, and in 1626 we bought Manhattan

But let's not make this a US vs. Netherlands thing.

-1
#1607 4 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

You missed it again.It is the dream of most Americans to own their own business.What examiner was talking about was a business loan.To build your own business,be your own boss,live the "dream".Not take a loan for a vacation!!!!!Where did that come from?
Are you familiar with the phrase"Put your money where your mouth is."

Sorry for the misunderstanding there, I was only giving an example to illustrate the difference between our cultures when it comes to money and how it's spent/invested/whatever. Nothing more.

#1610 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

I'm sitting on the pot reading this thread to catch up laughing out loud. Some of you are worried about still getting a rug and people skipping back in line? LMAO OMG!!! Let me help, for only $149 shipped in two days you can save thousands and have your rug in time for Xmas
amazon.com link »

Amazing!

#1614 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

There are a few of us over here in the states that think the same. I would never take out a loan for a Pinball machine. Every. But if the opportunity to pay for one, in advance, a little chunk at a time, I can dig that. I have the resources to have written the check right up front, but for me, its a little less of a hit when paying for it in chunks vs writing the fat check.

Well, of course there are also Dutch people that take out a loan on a car, I wasn't suggesting it was so black and white The point I was trying to get across was that I think US and Dutch people have (somewhat) different views on money and how to run/fund a company (no pun intended). That might explain the way people on Pinside react to how DP runs their projects and manage money in their company.

#1617 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Check...and...mate! Nicely played...
I love the Dutch, if for no other reason than Johannes Vermeer. It's all in good fun, and I plan to visit next summer so you can all kick my ass in person. (I know Robin will!)

Well, not to get all mushy here, but I also love The States and American people. Went there a couple of times and it's a wonderful country with lots to see and people are much more talkative than over here. I also LOVE muscle cars (own a Corvette and a '67 Caprice as you can se on my avatar). [Mushy mode off]

#1654 4 years ago

Yeah... Or you can stay negative. The Germans might invade us and before you know it DP is producing "Mein Fuhrer"...

#1661 4 years ago

So Phil actually said "theft".

#1706 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Yeah, have to agree with this. The NY party was totally unnecessary and stupid. They had the games at Expo just a couple months ago, there was zero reason to fly them back to the US. That's not a free trip, it costs money, it costs time, and since they're still showing the unapproved assets it's a risk to the project.
"Barry is super busy and shouldn't have to deal with this" rings hollow if he has time to party overseas.
Time to just focus on the task at hands guys.
And edible are way too hard to titrate, vaping ++

Just to fill in some blanks: the games WERE already in the US, they aren't flown in and out. There are 5 prototypes of which there are some in The States and they stay there for promotional purposes as far as I know.

#1711 4 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

Is this what Phil was referring to when he spoke about the difficult cast member during the Expo seminar?
What about the 20 songs? Is that licensing final? Phil also mentioned GM (the Dude's car) and Brunswick being on board. Any word on that being locked in?

AFAIK, the 20 songs are licensed as a song album. Under Dutch law that is relatively simple, all you have to do is pay an amount of fees and you're allowed to use the full songs.

#1742 4 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

You can probably get all the Dutch songs you want that way.

No, international songs also.

-2
#1838 4 years ago
Quoted from C2CPinball:

Two episodes of relevance have just been uploaded.
#126 - What I thought after the NYC Modern Pinball Party and then speaking with Phil
http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/episode-126-a-very-complicated-case-maude-or-just-my-opinion-man_33980
#127 - Roger Sharpe joins us to talk TBL and licensing.
http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/episode-127-a-timely-evening-with-roger-sharpe_33981
http://www.coast2coastpinball.com

Listen especially to the second podcast with Roger Sharpe. That one actually confirms that his whole "Phil having a fit" thing is actually blown WAY out of proportion... and then some (well, at least the license thing). All the stuff that is on the machine is fully within the license, as I can understand.

-1
#1840 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballSTAR:

Strangely, I haven't gotten any refunds... has everyone gotten refunds ?

Some have, some haven't (yet). As I understand it, it also depends on where your deposit went: to "Phil's" DP-US or to the other DP division. Phil started a "wild/unapproved" refund action that only reached some people, but I guess that stopped temporary while they are sorting stuff out (??)

I also read here that DP-BV (the Dutch company) has started giving some people their requested refund, but I guess that will take some time sorting stuff out between DP-US and the Dutch branch, especially since they aren't on speaking terms, I presume.

#1849 4 years ago
Quoted from Ruger:

Dutch is the new code word for Nigeria

Without an emoticon, that's a blow below the belt...

Just wait and see, this will eventually be a magnificent product when all this ruckus blows over. Meanwhile listen to the podcast with Roger Sharpe, it will answer a lot of questions raised here about the licensing issues.

#1852 4 years ago
Quoted from Monster_Bash:

As someone that was involved in almost the exact same thing (wanted out of a profitable 'business' and forfeiting my share of the profits and contributions with 2 other people) it's not just 'I quit'. It took quite a bit of time to get it done..well over 6 months.
With all due respect..Phil should have started protecting his family day one..and not use his personal information (IE: SSN) in a business venture. Not only is the Business 101..it's Common Sense 101

I think that's something a lot of people here forget. Phil entered this enterprise with a clear mind. I can understand that his personal situation may have changed or he got nervous about the licensing issues and he got cold feet, wanting out all of a sudden. We have no proof that "nothing" was done about this. We only have proof that Dutch Pinball first suggested that he ride it out until "his" orders were shipped to the customers, fading out his (financial) involvement this way, probably because DP did not have a replacement for him at that time. When Phil did not accept that, the people at DP needed to find another way to handle this problem (meanwhile handling all other stuff that comes with developing a pinball machine). There is no proof that they did not undertake any actions during these six weeks, there is only proof that this dispute was not solved in this timeframe. There may even be much more communication than Phil wants to show us? After that, Phil derailed the whole situation with his deep throat act...

But, in Holland we call that "koffiedik kijken" and that does not contribute to the matter

#1860 4 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

thats clearly not true do to the pot, gun, Kahlua, time mag...

I'm not into the details, but did the proto have a visible Kahlua bottle? I recollect a playfield with a turned (half visible) bottle? Not sure there and it might be different on one proto than on the other..

Roger may also have stated this because they have found a way to solve these license issues and made (internal) decisions about it. I don't think we should go micromanaging everything on the machine now. I think it's normal some things are being sacrificed because license owners demand it, other things might be pushed through by Roger in some sort of compromise. Only thing we can do is wait and see.

-1
#1863 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

It doesn't really, it's just what side you choose to believe.

There are no "sides" here. There is only a pinball machine that most of you like a lot. There is also the choice of going in and (resume your) pre-order or wait and see if you want to be safe. All of you that want a TBL will get one eventually, so you don't have to choose a side here.

If you persist that there are "sides", then you're on the paranoid side. In that case: no need to put in a pre-order and keep wining about it for the next half year. If you have pre-ordered already, just pull out, nobody will hunt you down to kick you in the nuts, you'll be fine and you'll be much cooler about it.

#1865 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

In this specific title, what is the benefit of being in/preordering? I honestly have not kept up and I may have missed it.
Is the preored risk for a custom rug and special trim?
I was still under the impression this is an unlimited game and anyone can buy after they are out?
is this correct?

Yep: the rug and chrome trim. But wasn't the pricetag lower for early pre-orders as well? Not sure about that.

The game is unlimited.

#1899 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

FFS.

"all to cover his theft"
I would say that implies theft, no?

No. Phil EXPLAINED it as theft. If you want to believe Phil, that's your prerogative, but it does not mean that it's a FACT.

Theft: the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

#1931 4 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

That response sucks, I'm sorry. It's great to give the information and an update what is going on but telling me they(which is really MY money) are being held hostage and don't have access and "Oh sorry all we can do is ask for it back" is BS. Figure it out if you want me to stick with you all, that is not reassuring in any manner.

I think you're overreacting (where have I seen this before... Oh wait, I know... )

They just explain the facts and give a reason as to why this might take a few days, before people start running around again, yelling "It's been 5 hours and I haven't seen my refund yet!". If they want to refund the money (and I'm sure they want to), they have to have access to it. If Phil starts working against them, then that's something you need to know, isn't it?

If Phil puts all this inside info on Pinside, it's accepted and now that the guys from DP use Phil to explain the situation, all of a sudden it's wrong? Not a consistent way of looking at things

-3
#2046 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Funny, the dutch defense team went silent when the posts of Barry basically passed the buck and said 'talk to phil'. I guess that whole "its all dutch pinball they can move money anywhere they want" mindset only works when it's convenient for you.
It's messy - but they need to be honoring their promise on refunds.. not making internal issues customer issues. If they means money from themselves or their investors or their piggy banks in Holland.. it should be happening.
Just add it to the list of stupid business moves.

I think the "Dutch defense team" just got tired of this thread and got on with their lives.

We can continue to discuss details, but as stated by a couple of people already: give these guys some time to sort things out and act. I know there are some here DP can't do good for anymore, but I think most people here are more or less at peace with the situation as it is right now.

#2054 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Are you purposefully trying to bring everyone down by your constant negativity? You're worse than my wife! The game will get made and people who stay in will be all the happier because, due to people taking your nonsense to heart and pulling out, the game will be all that rarer... Sorry, shouldn't feed the troll, I know....

He just got in late on this thread and only wants his fair share of ranting in it.

Latest news about DP: all the guys just bought matching colors Lamborghini's. I think they pre-ordered them

#2080 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

My Xmas wish is that all these boutiques cut a deal with Stern. Let Stern keep the manufacturing plant fully staffed and charge all these boutiques to manufacture games for them. Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

I'm not sure if that would be a good development. Lot's of pinheads still despise Stern and keep tellin' that Stern "plays differently" than B/W pinballs or that their build quality is not up to B/W. I'm not supporting this theory, but it would sure hurt TBL when it was built at Stern.

#2081 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Could just be language barrier too.. but again.. when dealing with customers in distress you give them ASSURANCES not raw facts that unpolished with just infuriate the customer more. This is basic customer service here...

WTF? First there is lots of fuss (also from you) that they aren't open and fair enough to the buyers, not enough info, no complete info. And now, when they communicate it "as it is", you're accusing them of communicating "raw facts", suggesting they better cover things up?!

#2100 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

And then there are just stupid people who will defend something blindly...

You're forgetting the stupid people that keep bashing things blindly, despite the good will being shown.

#2104 4 years ago
Quoted from DreamTR:

That's the old guard being naive. The Stern games stand up to the Bally/Williams stuff now for sure. It took some time but the games are great now. There's only so much of the same 20+ years of Bally/Williams pinballs I can take. Yes, they stand up to the test of time, (most Data East stuff does not), but the Stern stuff in the last 5-6 years plays just as well if not better. People just won't give the stuff a chance but I can assure you those people aren't sitting there playing their games 10x a day still either.

Yes, we both feel that way, but seeing all the paranoid stuff going on in this thread, I guess there are also quite a lot of people still using that old reason not to buy a TBL when it would be built by Stern. Especially after TBL got so much credit for giving back the old B/W feel.

#2106 4 years ago
Quoted from paulywalnuts23:

I would agree that they play well, but build quality is not as good compared to the classic Bally/Williams era games IMO.. I mean they aren't horrible but still not up to those glory years.

I'm convinced that a lot of people still think that. And whether it's true or not, choosing Stern for this would certainly cost TBL clients.

#2153 4 years ago
Quoted from anubis2night:

If Barry wasn't paying attention to requests by universal what makes you think he'd pay attention to a letter from a lawyer in the usa?

These guys were right on track with the license issues, Roger Sharpe confirms that in the podcast. The only reason this has become a problem is because Phil threw a fit, some of you guys now want out (understandable) and Some people keep throwing stuff in this thread that has been taken care of or is taken care of as we speak.

#2170 4 years ago
Quoted from Deaconblooze:

At expo, they said anyone that ordered then should have the machine by Q3, 2015. I Think Q2 is pretty ambitious, but I was under the impression that they were ahead of schedule, and possibly setting conservative dates.

What I understood was that Q3 was the planned (conservative) deadline for delivery and that one of the guys said Q2 was doable.

#2188 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

There is even some speculation when BoP 2.0 ships it will still be providing code updates. Basically, I hope I'm proven wrong but I'm setting my expectations that code will be great - eventually - but not out of the box. This is not a slam just on DP - my expectations have been recalibrated for all pinball companies. The only complete games new out of box one can argue - is the vault editions by Stern.

There is a difference between incomplete code and code with bugs that need to be fixed. I got my Metallica with half of the code, so almost no modes at all. That is a big difference to complete code with some bugs in it. I think the people at DP will try to ship with complete code and after that they may need to fix some bugs that users report (no better bug detectors than actual customers).

#2214 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

I'm not.sure I understand the logic of how Phil screwed over a customer. He returned money, not stole it. That's not screwing anyone over.

He just created a hell of a panic that might kill DP and with that, a lot of cash that people payed up front. How can you not understand that??

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