The Big Lebowski
Dutch Pinball, 2016You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider burningman.
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Just talked with barry and everything is fine...you will not lose your place in line. You can go into your payment status and reapply the payment that was refunded. DP will be sending out a note after th modern pinball event. (probably next week)
Quoted from Aurich:I'm sure it will all be fine, so I agree, nothing to freak out over.
But if that was the case wouldn't a note ahead of time be appreciated? And whatever happened, don't you think an email now, instead of next week, is a good idea?
DP, you gotta step up your communication game guys. Talk to people!
Is there anything to this that looks planned by DP? Maybe planned by Phil....
I highly doubt anyone from DP would do this @ 0600 east coast time on the same day as the mp debut.....
Quoted from Soltic:Smart.
Still haven't got a refund I was in early, is the consensus those refunded are latecomers near expo?
Rod
No... I was in on day one
Quoted from zucot:I just reapplied my payment. We'll see what happens now.
I agree that they shouldn't wait until next week to issue an explanation.
Barry said they would issue a statement but did not give a timeframe. I said that it would probably be next week, (I don't think Barry will be back from New York until tuesday.)
Hey Guys...just got into NY and met with Barry.
This is truly a non-issue. Relax and play some pinball for gods sake.
VIP's...check your e-mail.....
Quoted from ChadH:I'm not recommending anyone do it but how many of you who got refunded are taking this as an opportunity to bail?
opportunity? any one of us could bail at any time with a full refund....why would this be an "opportunity"?
All I know is I am looking forward to getting my game this summer....
All the drama is just bull-shit....
Dude...Phil....what are you hoping to achieve by doing this?
This really appears like a cry for attention....be cool man
Quoted from foxtj24:So if a theft occurred is our money safe with TBL?
yes...but I don't think there was any "theft"
Quoted from kapper:Burningman are you affiliated with DP in any way?
Nope...just an early achiever....In it for the long haul...
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:How do you know this is true?
What makes you think that your money is any less safe than it was yesterday?
Companies...not just pinball companies use their assets to fund projects. This is no different.
All that has really happened is someone decided to send deposits back that were not requested.
Quoted from sammiesguys:And a former employee (and a current shareholder of DP USA) is accusing his former employers/partners of theft, deception, and outright lying.
well...as the dude says....thats like his opinion man...
Quoted from edmorex:How do we request refunds? PayPal immediately closed my claim for my first deposit because it "was older than 45 days" old.
Send a note to Barry....as its been since the beginning.
This whole thing is a pile of shit...
Like most of you, all of my information was coming directly from Phil. Or the newsletters that were sent out from Phil. I don't recall Barry or Jaap standing in front of everyone at Expo acting like the big shot talking about licensing, talking down about Pinball manufactures or having private meetings with individuals telling them secrets of what was to come just to get the sale.
I know if my partners told me to get up on stage and say things that are not true, I would say "you do it." And although I am not lifelong friends, from what I do know of Barry and Jaap, they are not head strong. They understand that this is a small community and making enemies in the business is not a good idea.
What? Songs are not licensed? Phil told me they were? The more I hear the more I realize that Phil was a yes man. He will tell you anything to get you in on a pre-order. What other cool stuff has Phil told you to get in? I have a laundry list of cool things that he said were coming but will not talk about it because who knows if any of it is true. Christ, he was letting some guys get in on pre-orders with out collecting a dime.
Oh yeah, all you guys who are still looking for T-shirts....Phil was in charge of that too. I finally got fed up with it and just bought my own. If you are still waiting for a shirt, rest assured you will get them. Scott is on it. I witnessed him making out labels at MP on Saturday night, but I don't think the guys that are asking for refunds will get theirs.
Regarding taxes, WTF. If you signed up with your own SS number on a company and never once thought about the taxes at the end of the year, well...as they say, you get what you get. Was this really something he just realized? Also, as others have pointed out, you don't just throw your hands up and say I want out. Not quite that simple.
As most know I am a pre-order from day one. Fully paid, just waiting for my machine. Anyone that does jump ship, regardless of fear of the sky falling, thinking that DP are crooks, making allegations of fraud or just hanging back saying I will just wait till it gets to a distributor, you may want to be a little less forthcoming. We all have reasons for getting out, but to expect to hang back and have DP allow you to come back in at the same spot on the list that you were in is bull shit. If you are out, you are out, and I would suggest to Barry and Jaap the same. You want back in, get in the back of the line, pay your $9,000, (if thats the price then) and you will get a machine. I would not expect any kind gestures from DP to those who are non-believers, and it will piss me off if DP is a nice guy to all of those who had no faith in them.
And to all the ass hats that think I am affiliated with DP or getting special treatment I am not. I believe in these guys, the company they are building, and the teachings of The Church of the Latter-Day Dude. No more, no less.
Quoted from pinghetto:Half of the people never asked for refunds. The other half of us (me included) were told to ask for refunds from the first DP email addressing this "Phil" issue. Getting a refund was never my intention. But, with that email from Dutch Pinball stating that if I hadn't received a refund (from DP USA - the one Phil sent without anyones knowledge) yet, that I will need to fill out a Paypal dispute. Which I can't. Then, once I get it, reapply it to my account. I feel left in the dark with no answers.
This isn't our fault. You make it sound like we are trying to back out because we "don't believe"?? And should be punished? Quite the opposite. I'm trying to get a refund because I got an email from Dutch Pinball that told me to. And from there, I haven't even been told what the next step would be if I wanted to keep my place in line...
Maybe I read your post incorrectly, and if I did I apologize.
Brian
Sorry Brian...I got a refund from Phil as well and resubmitted it back on my pre-order page. I am making reference to guys that are bailing because of the allegations going on/sky is falling mentality. If you are asking for a refund because you can't take the heat...then you need to get in the back of the line. If you are only doing what you were told to stay in, welcome to the Big Hairy Sack Club. 
This will all get straightened out. Barry will be working the e-mail's over the next few weeks. DP wants you to stay in, and anyone on the pre-order list that are making their payments are good.
Quoted from Soltic:Burningman it sounds like you've got a crystal ball or magic 8 ball there that you seem pretty confident in.
What does it say for those that "can't take the heat" and want out - we getting our money out like they stated we could,or would you consider this punishment for being a "non-believer"?
Rod
Rod...its pretty simple. From the beginning Phil said...no wait, DP said on its website so we know its true......anyone can ask for a refund prior to their game going into production. You are out.
Now if Barry said to request a refund and resubmit your payment to straighten out your account thats one thing. But if you ask for a refund because you can't take the heat and want to wait until there is more revealed or want to wait until you are "comfortable"....get in the back of the line.
Quoted from davewtf:So did anyone who got a refund put another down payment in to the new PayPal account?
Yes...I was at Modern Pinball on Saturday night and Barry mentioned to me that there were resubmissions coming in.
Quoted from taylor34:You act like the back of the line is this horrible thing, lol. There are only a few possible scenarios here:
a) DP goes bust, nobody gets a game
b) DP makes the games, but at a super slow rate
c) DP makes the games, but with high production
Well if it's a) you lose a ton of money. If it's b), you're in a WOZ situation which nobody ever wants to be in again. If it's c), then the front of the line isn't much different than back.
So to me, the back of the line with no preorder is the place to be…I don't see how you can lose here. Front of the line can get screwed at least two ways, back of the line has no drawbacks really. Wait for them to actually produce something = smart.
Didn't mean it as a bad thing. There was a post in this thread that DP should allow people to get full refunds, wait until the game is produced, and then allow guys back in their same original spot as a "good gesture" (and as I read it, it implied they got it for the same original price with all the goodies)
I don't agree with that. And I also have no issues with guys that want out...my problem is with guys wanting their cake and eat it too.
Quoted from Soltic:BM I think the "panic" or I'd like to consider "extreme concern" is in relation to the insinuation of a lack of control over the funds and a lack of response to security of those funds - coupled w more dark insinuations of possible mishandling of the funds including kiting / robbing Peter for Paul.
I can't imagine being in Jaap or Barry's shoes and having to deal w this however I do believe when they say that they are sorry for having their customers dragged into this. I won't be surprised if they do offer spots to be held for those freaked out and hopefully receive their refunds. No matter how rogue Phil is and how much damage he's done they still have to take the responsibility of keeping the faith in dp for those that were in early and I think this a smart idea, but hey that's just like my opinion man.
Furthermore Sharpe is as sharp as a f'n razor, my magic 8 ball says he'll be bringing a lot more to this table than Licensing. The advice will be there should they ask for it.
Overall if someone were to offer me my money and say "no pinball for u - back of line", right now I'd take the money and you can call me what you want.
Tell me that they understand the shit we've been through in placing my money w them in the first place and welcome me back in line well that may bring my money back and lessen the bad taste in my mouth.
I hear your passion and support, I have it too but I do remember feeling lucky I didn't put my money in on MMR1 from Wayne Gillard so many years ago, and I really did want him to produce the pin then and succeed, but things happen for a reason....
Rod
Totally respect your decision and your opinion.
I am a reasonable person, and I would say with Roger in the picture, and new shit coming to light, I feel that in the next few weeks, as Barry is going through the e-mails processing the requested refunds, people will have a better understanding of what has happened and be able to make a final decision. As I said earlier, DP wants your business.
But, (for me) it would irritate me to know that I was in on the first day, paid in full early, and have supported them right out of the gate.......only to see someone that may have been in early, be able to get a refund for what they have paid, and kick back, relax, eat popcorn, and when the time is right, take their feet off the coffee table and send a payment to Barry for 8500 expecting a rug and chrome.
DP's pre-order model was designed to give incentives to early orders with the price and goodies. We all know that this is so parts can be purchased, employees can be hired, proto's made.....and without it, the games may have not seen the light of day. Down the road I can see DP not requiring the pre-order model but they really had no choice to get TBL off the ground.
Quoted from Benboogaard:There is a lot of private money invested even before a single pre-order was taken!
This is a correct statement. They have a huge personal stake in this company.
Guys...
I have to agree with Soltic...with Roger coming on board is a huge deal.
Just for conversation...lets say Roger is able to get approval for things that have been thought to be dead in the water...that's a positive for all of us.
And lets say in the next few days/week, we get communication saying all our money is safe and TBL is still set to begin production in April. Thats another positive for all of us.
This whole thing may have a silver lining...
Quoted from RobT:It's interesting to look back on the discussions about Phil's presentation at Expo and how some of us commented on what we thought was a lack of professionalism at that time, shown by his slamming of Gary Stern and the regular dropping of F bombs. Ironically some of the same people who defended the presentation as being perfectly professional at that time are now talking about how completely unprofessional Phil is.
I raise my hand....I thought it was edgy, grabbed the audience, and raised a few eyebrows. Was it something I would have done, no.
Was it effective? I think so. Could it have been done in a more professional manner and achieved the same results? absolutely.
Quoted from Cenobyte:I guess it's a cultural thing then, because over here it's done differently (NOT saying that either way is wrong). It's the same with credit cards or loans: over here we don't like to borrow money for a vacation or a car, we only take out a loan for a house, the rest we like to pay in cash. Over in the US, borowing money for "stuff" is much more common. Which way is best? I don't know, it's a difference in culture and I think that is also the case with how DP is run and how your guys think it SHOULD be run.
There are a few of us over here in the states that think the same. I would never take out a loan for a Pinball machine. Ever. But if the opportunity to pay for one, in advance, a little chunk at a time, I can dig that. I have the resources to have written the check right up front, but for me, its a little less of a hit when paying for it in chunks vs writing the fat check.
Quoted from badbilly27:I'm sitting on the pot reading this thread to catch up laughing out loud. Some of you are worried about still getting a rug and people skipping back in line? LMAO OMG!!! Let me help, for only $149 shipped in two days you can save thousands and have your rug in time for Xmas
amazon.com link »
Dude...thats just a rug...not the highly sought after official Big Lebowski Pinball limited run model. Its priceless. 
Quoted from badbilly27:Would you?
Absolutely I would.
Really whats the difference? If DP came out of the gate saying that Sharpe was on board everyone would have said, "Daaaauuuuumn! They got the big Gun!"
Now they are saying, "we got the big Gun"...I felt confident before, but now....sheeeeit..our worries are over dude.
Quoted from Rensh:I can confirm this. I was at dp booth at expo, in fact they even approached me first as they heard I was dutch and thought I was part of DP, when a possible distributor from Canada approached Jaap to discuss a distributorship and Jaap clearly said politely NO. For the moment they have no distributor network in mind, direct sales it is. This message was loud and clear. And as every good businessman does, it was a polite NO with the door not fully closed. Can't recall the name but it were two men rather small, one had a beard I can recall. I did see them at VIP party.
Just good business sense from Jaap, always leave doors open
Yep...and Barry was talking with Nate about this topic at MP Saturday night. Right now there is no distributors. I know that there are more than a few that would like to be distributors and I think they are keeping that door open, but right now. None.
Quoted from RobT:Please explain to me how Phil's actions here on Pinside will have slowed the project down "so much worse" than if he hadn't posted?
He had been trying to get off of the books for 6 weeks, apparently with little or no response.
If anything, it seems that he sped things up.
I have witnessed how this has become a speed bump for DP.
Barry's focus after getting BOP 2.0 was to get the line up and running. I know for a fact he has not been able to do any of that since this whole things started. The interruption for Barry to handle this mess has kept him from his primary purpose...get the line up. The delay may not be measured in months, but its certainly interrupted business.
Sped things up for Phil...well, we'll see. It may have just landed him is a shit pot of legal crap. But who knows?
Quoted from Aurich:My concern, and one of the things I cited when I left, is what happened to the focus on finishing BOP 2.0?
The internal machinations of whether it was a "real" DP product or not don't mean anything to me, it's the public face of the company's first launch, and it's not going that great.
I'm glad to hear that US kits should hopefully be shipping soon, but they're shipping an incomplete game that doesn't have metamorphosis. You know, the actual cool gimmick in the game.
If they can't handle that, then what does that mean for TBL's code? Did they drop one thing to work on the other? And will they drop working on TBL to get all excited about Back to the Future, or The Matrix, or whatever the next shiny thing is?
These are the kind of concerns I have when I look at pre-orders.
Well....BTTF is dead in the water, so all that noise about BTTF from Phil is bull shit. Not saying it wouldn't be a great game, but I would give it a 1% shot.....with Roger on Board, I give it 5%.
My understanding is Koen is doing just that, finishing code for BOP 2.0. No timeline is set on when it will be complete, but I don't think Koen is sitting on his hands.
And, although I can't speak for Barry. I have a feeling that this whole thing is pushing the team even harder to get TBL out on time and with completed code. Will there be updates for some of the first delivers? I'm sure. But I doubt it will be an incomplete game.
Quoted from badbilly27:I want a drag off of what you two are smoking. Respectfully, I have to call BS. Getting the line up while attending a party in NYC?
Dude...party in NYC was friday night and Saturday. Barry was on his way back to Holland on Sunday and at the office on Monday. Really? I doubt those 2 days killed the schedule...
Smoking? naw man, Edibles is where its at bro....
Quoted from Aurich:there was zero reason to fly them back to the US.
Scott humped them over from Chicago in a truck...these were two that were left in the US after Expo.
Also, the place they stayed in NY was totally low budget. I know, I stayed in the same place. So low budget in fact, that I know my wife wouldn't have stayed there.
Quoted from Aurich:And edible are way too hard to titrate, vaping ++
I can give you a +1 on that...
Quoted from jwilson:Shouldn't the key activity being the production of a finished game, *then* marketing and sales of said game?
The reason the whole Phil thing resonates with people is that, based on the public behavior of DP, it makes sense. Announcing new products before finishing the last one, spending money and time on in-person shows, finally shipping a product that is unfinished, not answering emails, etc.
I can dig on this...especially if you are the size of Stern. DP is nothing close to Stern, they needed pre-orders to get this game moving. As I have said earlier, I think DP will stop the Pre-order thing, or have some type of a modified pre-order system in the future.
I totally understand the frustration with radio silence. I too agree that Communication could be better. But right now I see one guy, (Barry) juggling e-mails, licensing, DP USA, deposits, all on his own. He is shoring up the ship and getting more folks on board to help get through the rough waters. As he said in the communication he will be working through e-mails over the next few weeks. So I am sure you will be hearing from him..
What I have to add is that these guys are not hiding in a cave. Many people were asking Barry some very direct questions at MP and was more than happy to answer any question anyone had. If I was sitting on the sidelines and not kept up with the project I could see the frustration with DP. I wanted to meet the team, play the game, and get a true feeling of who I was sending $9k to. So I went to Expo...and then went to MP....to play TBL? sure. To meet the guys I am giving $9k to? You damn right.
Quoted from madscientist101:How are you contacting Barry? Can you post his e-mail so that other customers who want a refund can contact him?
Dude...really? [email protected]
Quoted from madscientist101:I have sent Phil several messages asking for a refund and he never responded and this was a few days ago when he was posting on here like crazy. He had plenty of time to vent on pinside yet he would not answer my PM's with a simple no or a yes regarding a refund.
I wouldn't waste my time with Phil....send a note to Barry
Quoted from aeonblack:Barry has no control of DP USA paypal, how is he going to refund our payments to DP USA?
Because he is straightening things out. Dutch Pinball USA is owned by Jaap and Barry now. Things will get sorted.
Quoted from zucot:Are you staying in bro?
We need a new thread for the survivors club, hahaha.
The Hairy Sack Club....
Quoted from brundaged:Exactly. And meanwhile DP should say "we are handling it", which is not what they communicated this morning.
Well...I don't think Barry or Jaap are relaxing, having their coffee....
Quoted from RobT:I'm still trying to get Burningman to take me up on my friendly wager about him getting his TBL before June.
I might have an answer to that early next week...
edit...I am with Geert though, I feel confident that it will still get produced and in my home by the end of June. If it comes before, I'll let you know...
Quoted from pinballslave:Apparently this game is planned to have 101 lit inserts!! Does anyone know if this means 101 separately controlled feature inserts?? If so, that's a lot!! and implies a pretty involved rule set...
ahhh...well since you asked...yes, it does. 101 separately controlled inserts verified. 
Quoted from ozno:Good news.
BUT
The refunds are never coming. They don't have the money. Jjst as I predicted, they are going to drag this out.
I want to see official documentation concerning PayPal. This is BS!!!!!!!!!!
Ozno...this is Don. Please pm me your information, I will personally handle your refund request when we are authorized to do so. In your PM please supply me with your Name and order number.
Quoted from mechslave:but I may order one...when they're being built and shipping to happy owners. I'm already sold on the machine itself, but not the company...
Awesome Mechslave...I'll be looking forward to talking with you when you're ready. 
Quoted from Razorbak86:Hopefully your refund request has been processed, too.
As a matter of fact it is.
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