(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


5 years ago

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#711 5 years ago

Holy crap Batman! I'm very sorry to read this thread (for Phil, DP, and pre-order owners), but this is better than half the stuff on TV. I've wasted a few hours, but read the whole thing. You can't make this shit up. Wow!

My .02:

1. DP should have taken Phil off all the company accounts. Email, ownership documents, PAYPAL - everything when he resigned. First thing you do when an employee leaves is shut them out of database access, email, credit cards, hell even phone. I could understand forgetting. But the employee/partner has been asking you to be removed - and you still don't do it?? This has "where there's smoke there's fire" warning all over it.

2. Why wouldn't DP owners immediately sign the ownership transfer papers of DP USA that Phil provided? This HAS to be addressed. Otherwise, it appears that DP does not want liability of the money collected in the USA for preorders but just wants access to the money to pay salary, supplies, and travel expenses. I'm not a lawyer but would be interested in the proper legal perspective on this. It appears like DP was limiting their "liability" and having Phil carry it all. What ramifications if the company had to shut down before production - who was on the hook? DP or DP USA?? If the latter, I get Phil wanting out as he was playing banker carrying all the risk. That would make DP have another meaning - check an adult porn site for what I mean. Caveat - if assumption of liability is accurate.

3. I STRONGLY suggest Phil contact Iceman per his offer to mediate a solution. Send a PM now. In fact, DP should contact Iceman as well. Great offer and one that should be leveraged by all.

4. I expect (based on preorder model) a boutique to burn through some of the cash to pay for parts, supplies, etc to build the pin. Traveling all over to drum up business I hope is on their dime. What amazes me by all (boutiques) is the lack of communication to the owners who provide the cash. Tis that time of year where everyone watches "It's a wonderful Life". Watch the movie - a run on the bank will absolutely sink the boutiques if only funding is from preorders. Need to step up communications if not funding yourself. Otherwise game over. Clock is ticking.

The license issues are concerning but could still be worked out. Not easy but salvageable. I don't blame Phil for whistle blowing as he's tried to get out - he's validated that in his communications examples - and for some reason DP will not acknowledge. Maybe he could have hired a lawyer to help quietly expedite things instead of a public forum - but role playing many may take the same approach to force DP to engage directly. Refunding money - good for pinsiders nightmare for DP. I see Phil as screaming for DP to respond to him and he will stop - and they continue to ignore. Odd (the guy burying his mother I totally get. So sorry to hear this. Other one, stop drinking white russians and step up to the plate)

Why does Phil need to find a new owner in USA - DP owns the product, I'm puzzled why it appears they are not willing to accept all business responsibility. If they believe in what they are building and all is legit, there are many people in the hobby that may have stepped up to help run the US operations. It's just odd.

I loosely know a few local DP people, and they are awesome straight shooters (Scott). I applaud the owners of DP and what they were trying to provide in products - great stuff. The business side, ouch. If this is showing the US how to build a game (as rumored part of their motivation) - I'd say back to the drawing board. Stern still has you beat on the business side. For all our sake please fix this.

RIP Pre-order model.

#755 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I think you can... and I think they did... It might not be strictly legal, but if no-one notices it might not such a big problem if the issues are sorted out before the game hits production... unless a good friend publicises on a massive pinball forum, that might get it some attention

That's what I don't understand about Phil's words... he says the guys at DP are good friends, and he wishes them the best of luck and success at getting TBL made, but at the same time he seems to be doing everything in his power to trash the companies reputation by claiming publically that the main guy there is a thief... I can understand him getting worried about the legal implications of them not playing by the rules and wanting out, but if he genuinely wishes them success, why write such damning words on here that's going to help drive them into the dirt?

Not defending Phil as alternative approach was engaging a lawyer but....the man has cancer, two young children, requested multiple times to be removed from the business and transfer cash to DP-BV. They've ignored him. End of year, taxes coming, man has cancer and is dealing with mortality right now and his family well being. Role play, Phil is seeing the world through different glasses that I hope I don't ever have to wear. He wants this closed so his family is protected. His friends will not answer his calls, emails, messages. But have time for white russians in NYC. Desperate action to gain attention and a response from DP owners.

Not saying approach 100% correct but the other parties knowing their friend is battling cancer isn't in the right here either. The attention now on, Phil is looking for closure to focus on life. All sad in perspective for all parties.

#831 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Why wouldn't DP owners immediately sign the ownership transfer papers of DP USA that Phil provided? This HAS to be addressed. Otherwise, it appears that DP does not want liability of the money collected in the USA for preorders but just wants access to the money to pay salary, supplies, and travel expenses. I'm not a lawyer but would be interested in the proper legal perspective on this. It appears like DP was limiting their "liability" and having Phil carry it all. What ramifications if the company had to shut down before production - who was on the hook? DP or DP USA?? If the latter, I get Phil wanting out as he was playing banker carrying all the risk. That would make DP have another meaning - check an adult porn site for what I mean. Caveat - if assumption of liability is accurate.

Here's your DP comment from page 15.

#833 5 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

Yes. Never trust a subject.

What a sad sack

#1608 5 years ago

I'm sitting on the pot reading this thread to catch up laughing out loud. Some of you are worried about still getting a rug and people skipping back in line? LMAO OMG!!! Let me help, for only $149 shipped in two days you can save thousands and have your rug in time for Xmas

amazon.com link »

#1632 5 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

The hiring of Roger Sharpe did not happen in response to this weeks drama, it occurred when Phil indicated he no longer wanted to be involved. Clearly DP understood they needed someone to work the license issues, who understood it and universally it appears everyone agrees Roger is the right guy for that. This also shows the DP clearly wants to do things the right way.

Rosh you're a good dude but have to disagree with your get back on the bandwagon posting and calling out "weak stomachs". Was Roger hired weeks ago because DP knew they needed help after Phil left and wanted to do it the right way? Or did things with Universal start to unravel even further when Phil left and warned about - now need to hire the big gun to steady the ship? I don't think any of us know but the main players involved.

I certainly hope DP delivers TBL pin. But I do think pre-order owners have a right to re-evaluate their position in light of recent information. It's shocking some of you are scolding pre-order owners for keeping their money just refunded in light of the shocking revelations in this thread. There's a good chance DP addresses Phil's statements within this thread and regains trust that they have their house now in order from a business stand point. But until then, let's not ignore 20+ pages of information and say all's well because Roger was hired as a consultant. There's reason for some optimism but I wouldn't feel right telling my friends jump back on at this point. Would you?

#1645 5 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Absolutely I would.

Really whats the difference? If DP came out of the gate saying that Sharpe was on board everyone would have said, "Daaaauuuuumn! They got the big Gun!"

Now they are saying, "we got the big Gun"...I felt confident before, but now....sheeeeit..our worries are over dude.

I respect your position to stay in. But you're disregarding all the other issues beyond the license one. And for you, it's cool if the other issues don't bother you. For me, I would tell my friends to hang tight until resolved.

BTW...Scott at DP is a super SOLID guy whom I have confidence in. But would still need some of the issues brought to light at levels above him at DP to gain my personal referral to a paying pre-order friend. Just being honest.

#1674 5 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Barry's focus after getting BOP 2.0 was to get the line up and running. I know for a fact he has not been able to do any of that since this whole things started.

Quoted from rosh:

Right now instead of working on the game and working through Phil's transition, they are now also having to do damage control.

I want a drag off of what you two are smoking. Respectfully, I have to call BS. Getting the line up while attending a party in NYC?

#1677 5 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Dude...party in NYC was friday night and Saturday. Barry was on his way back to Holland on Sunday and at the office on Monday. Really? I doubt those 2 days killed the schedule...

Smoking? naw man, Edibles is where its at bro....

Then you have to be careful stating that "they haven't been able to start any BoP 2.0 and getting line started because of this". I agree this WILL add to their time schedule to properly address/remedy. But to date, it has not impacted BoP 2.0 and lines.

Edibles, hmm.......

#1722 5 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

The reason the whole Phil thing resonates with people is that, based on the public behavior of DP, it makes sense. Announcing new products before finishing the last one, spending money and time on in-person shows, finally shipping a product that is unfinished, not answering emails, etc.

Whoa, for a second I thought I was in the Skit B Predator thread.

#1875 5 years ago
Quoted from Monster_Bash:

I'm sorry..but this is completely wrong...

WTF??? How is what skins posted completely wrong. He stated both are at fault and you want to point the finger only at Phil? Just wow. Smoke em if you got em.

#1878 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

The game is unlimited.

This is the one piece of news I'm hanging on to. Patiently wait till this mess gets sorted out, early birds get their game, sort out early problems (all games have), then purchase one. 0 risk all reward.

Hope this gets made.

#1882 5 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

If DP went belly up (and I'm NOT saying that they will) and couldn't refund the money, how would everyone feel?

Based on some responses, as long as they got their shirt and rug it would be ok.

#2025 5 years ago

Just looking for cheap thumbs up now.

#2061 5 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Hey, cool it Walter. Look, pal, there never was any money. The Big Lebowski gave me an empty briefcase, so take it up with him, man.

Breaking news. For those who stay in the project and do not ask for a refund, not only will you receive a rug and chrome package but a limited edition briefcase too. This offer is valid only for USA customers, if you accept the limited edition briefcase you are agreeing just like in the movie to no money (refund). But the briefcases limited

#2063 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Just going from what informed people have said and from other information regarding components they use to build the game... My understanding is that the build quality and feel of the game resembles Bally/Williams games from peoples comments who played the prototypes...

All recent teasing aside, I played the game as well at Expo and it was very fun. I stood in line to play it twice. Accurate statements that it played and felt like a Williams game. No BS. There is no question these guys have design skills that rivals other pinball companies in the business today.

Unfortunately, they need a business partner that knows how to run a company, manage licenses, and manufacture a game. What is killing all of the start ups (minus Spooky) is the "design" mentality and disregard for actually following business rules.

My Xmas wish is that all these boutiques cut a deal with Stern. Let Stern keep the manufacturing plant fully staffed and charge all these boutiques to manufacture games for them. Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

#2086 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

doesn't the pinball community want a new kid on the block that might have some really excellent games to offer??

I'm all for having new kids on the block to compete with Stern. Complete transparency I preordered JJP WOZ, RAZA and Predator. I did so with the noble idea to "help" new boutiques enter the competition and because I was excited about new games/titles/technology. I have since pulled out of Predator for many of the same reasons contained within this thread.

It's great to be optimistic. It's great to want to have new designs, builds, and technology. But with reality setting in - many of these guys are just talented designers with no business acumen whatsoever. Yes, I acknowledge and respect your opinion that they give us optimism for better build QC, parts, toys, complete code to our door, etc. Unfortunately, we've seen two start ups deliver - JJP and Spooky - and both did not come complete with final code. We got some better toys, some very cool technology, and eventually some really cool code - but the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow I've come to realize doesn't exist. My feet are back on the ground firmly planted in reality.

DP can design a great playing game and I'm certain the code will be great. I'm optimistic they can manufacture a high value game with better QC than Stern. I'm honestly doubtful that will happen based on what was exposed here. Once parts start being ordered, issues with vendors uncovered, staffing and training of manufacturing floor, paying these employees properly with benefits, support, etc - the business side comes in. No longer in design phase now the hard truth of manufacturing comes in.

Sorry, while I try to be optimistic based on their coming out of the gate super strong they fell on turn one bad. Epic fall that is being replayed on ESPN every half hour for sport. Now they need to brush themselves off and get back up and recognize you need help. Anyone from Zaccaria still out there in Europe if you don't want US help?

#2092 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Maybe some facts for the people that are interested. :
- DP has outsourced the production to an other company in the Netherlands
- DP uses common industy parts.
- DP uses common assamblies for flippers, popbumpers etc. (that's why you have the B/W feeling)
- DP team sure as hell don't drive expencive cars.
- DP has 5 working prototypes. 3 in US and 2 in NL (4 more then most botique's)
- DP has a lot of pinball enthousiasts in there team
- TBL is using american size bolt, nuts and screws (not Metric!)

This is good information and post.

Still, who is paying this manufacturing company to build? Even though parts are common industry you'll still be dealing with QC and vendor delays. The business side still exists. Read JJP thread as an example. Whether it's on this side or your side of the pond, building pinball is hard. Harder if you don't have a solid businessperson to manage it with talented designers.

#2101 5 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

I will Paypal $100 to the first stern employee that writes this on the corporate mensroom wall at Stern Inc. !!

Now what would be cool is if Gary is reading this - which I bet he is - and goes and writes it on the men's bathroom himself and takes a selfie for the $100. I would LMAO and applaud loudly that sense of humor.

#2186 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I´m assuming this pot of gold you´re referring to is a new manufacturer kicking out quality machines with great code etc... It might not exist at the moment, but then DP have not made TBL yet... Just because something doesn´t exist now, it doesn´t mean it won´t exist ever! Philosophy is´t my strong point, but I´m sure this is true...

Anything can happen, true statement. My statement about getting a game with complete code and flawless quality out of the box I don't count on happening - even with DP. There is even some speculation when BoP 2.0 ships it will still be providing code updates. Basically, I hope I'm proven wrong but I'm setting my expectations that code will be great - eventually - but not out of the box. This is not a slam just on DP - my expectations have been recalibrated for all pinball companies. The only complete games new out of box one can argue - is the vault editions by Stern.

#2272 5 years ago

Here's a stocking stuffer for you TBL fans. Merry Xmas!

#2294 5 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Can you imagine if you got a refund that you didn't request and later the machine shows up?

I knew I should have preordered.

#2580 5 years ago

I just read a few pages to get caught up while on the shitter. At first I was like, OMG they added an "achiever" plaque like a pacifier to the pre-order people - look now it's an LE! Stay in now and send us your next payment or you'll miss out. Just crazy. Do you pre-order owners really care that much about a rug, chrome and plaque? I almost feel like these pinball companies are treating collectors like little kids. Any mix up or missed deliverable, how about another cookie to settle down that tantrum - I mean plaque.

I will say, I do like that DP sent out a communications including clarification on the license, music and John Goodman. Only bummer is still working out DP USA refunds and FAQ (while great idea) did not address what if I want to wait before sending in next payment past Jan 1st until you get more answers for us?

Step in right direction, but plaque is just too funny.

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