(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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#41 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

If the payments were sent to Phil's address, it's likely that DP needs them re-sent to the DP address since Phil is out. Probably cost too much in fees to transfer from Phil to DP directly, or other problems with that method, so they simply want everyone to re-send the deposit directly to DP. Nothing to freak over.

I'm sure it will all be fine, so I agree, nothing to freak out over.

But if that was the case wouldn't a note ahead of time be appreciated? And whatever happened, don't you think an email now, instead of next week, is a good idea?

DP, you gotta step up your communication game guys. Talk to people!

48
#98 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I suggest taking all refunds and sending them to RIOT pinball to get in on WOOLY!
That would be the wisest thing you can all do.

The wisest thing you can do is stop giving people money for games that don't exist.

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#253 4 years ago

Man, I'm sorry to see the drama bomb having to explode like this. Most of this isn't news to me, it's probably clear now why I had so many concerns over Phil leaving (cue the he's just the marketing guy responses) and the Bride situation. I laid out my concerns to Barry (the way Jaap was offering the 'closed' pre-order deal especially rankled me, though no one on Pinside apparently noticed it) when I bowed out of the game, but he never responded.

I don't have all sides of the story, and I'm not really in a position to judge anyone because of that. But this pre-order shit is just getting stupider by the day.

I still want to see TBL made, very much. But maybe it's time to just build it and sell it after it's ready, like real companies do. If you have someone leave the company, whatever his role or relationship, then you gotta stop what you're doing and take care of the money shit. I don't know why anyone is bringing games to New York is that wasn't done.

Phil I'd never out your sickness, but since you brought it up yourself, it's kind of insane to just leave all the money with a guy who's battling serious cancer. Just take care of that shit. I'm pulling for you man, whatever happened and whoever is right it's just pinball, take care of your life and yourself however you need to.

#259 4 years ago
Quoted from LITZ:

If Uni had an issue with the launch party in Oct, why have they not brought any action against DP at this point?

I think the question is more did Universal even have any idea about what was happening at Expo? The answer is apparently no. DP basically gambled, or didn't care. You might remember just before Expo when the TBL teaser video went live, it had a big black NOT APPROVED box over the actors' faces in the middle of the playfield. Reason for that.

Just like the Kahlua bottle on the playfield, though I think everyone knows that wasn't approved. Same goes for the Time magazine cover on the spinner, not licensed. Those are relatively minor issues though I would think, it's pretty unlikely that would come back on DP unless the final version still had those.

I was assuming that the final licensing stuff had been taken care of since they were bringing the machines to New York and continuing public events. Probably best to not assume that. If you're staying in on this I would ask DP for a straight answer on that one, if your money is tied up with them you deserve to know if they're risking the future of the game or not with these events. I doubt anyone buying the game thinks that's a worthwhile risk even if you're excited to see it.

#299 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Why would DP make a mention about not having the rights to use kahlua when they supposedly never had the rights to using John Goodman in the game? We really need to hear the other side to this story.

I'm going off memory here, but if I'm recalling correctly the issue isn't that Goodman can't be in the game. The issue is that DP can only use the approved marketing assets from Universal of him, and nothing else. So for instance, no going through the film and grabbing a shot from the movie and using it. I know they can't use anything that involves him and a gun (I believe he has veto power of any likeness of himself even appearing next to a gun). No drawing his character or rendering him.

So he's fine on the translite for instance. That's made from the approved PR shots. That's why the characters have the poses they do, that was basically the only option. It's filtered in Photoshop to give it that more painterly look, the studio allowed filters so long as they were applied to the photos and nothing was hand drawn or anything.

#449 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Im not sure about the alien (if it will even be used it is 1 of many possibilities) JPOP claims the robot is public domain "trailers before 1964 are not protected"

Holy shit, he did not actually say that. Please tell me that's not a direct quote.

First of all, Robbie the Robot isn't from a "trailer". He's originally from the full length film Forbidden Planet, which was released in 1956. There is no "if it was in the trailer it's public domain" rule.

(The robot was reused several times on camera, some people here probably think of Twilight Zone first even I bet.)

So that's the trailer part.

The second part is films do not enter the public domain right now unless they were made before 1923. 1956 > 1923

So that part is wrong too.

I just checked the license on my Mondo Forbidden Planet print. Rights belong to Turner Entertainment Co., so they're the ones who would handle any licensing.

It's not like I needed another reason to doubt that Jpop has any clue WTF he's actually doing, but that's sure a huge one. Does that mean those cabinets he brought to Expo weren't a colossal waste of time exercise in concept art, but actually a stunningly miscalculated final design?

#467 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

You cannot take the images/characters from the public domain items and reuse them elsewhere as the characters are copyrighted.

Bingo.

14
#480 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Yes, and why, because the boutiques don't have the cash to do it on their own. Thus, either you do it, or you don't and don't get those types of machines. It is that easy.

Nonsense. You finance making the final prototype, complete with code, yourself. That's on you. If you can't handle that then let's be honest, you have no business running a business.

You can take money from people when you're ready to go to production. "Pay now, you'll get your game in 3 months" would be totally acceptable.

Can't do that? Don't decide to be a pinball manufacturer.

12
#578 4 years ago
Quoted from eharan:

remove the Weed picture

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

#598 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

You are kidding, right?
I'm not taking right or wrong. I'm talking reality.
Nobody will ever hire him again. For anything.

Oh don't be ridiculous. He has a job, do you think they're going to fire him because of some pinball drama on the internet?

Everyone needs some perspective. The game isn't dead. DP has worked very hard to get the licenses for everything. The problem is the work isn't done. I think anyone with money down deserves some honest answers about the status of the licensing. If it's not 100% yet, hey, not the end of the world. But maybe it's not the best time to be bringing the game to New York and showing it off. I wouldn't worry about lawsuits, more pissing off the licensor and suddenly the theme is dead, and the game with it.

The money and US company thing is a mess. Again, why go to New York if you haven't taken care of basic business? I'm sure it's fun to bring the game out for a parade, but sometimes you gotta handle other things first. I'm sure Barry and Jaap have their version of the story too, and we'll hear it. But Phil left, he still had control over things, and he begged them to take it away. That seems like job #1. Even if you're not on Phil's side, isn't it crazy to leave a dude who bailed on you in control of the money?

I really hope they can settle things down, and the game proceeds. Even if it's super disappointing that the pot leaf is being removed, that really crushes me. Waters down the awesome counterculture feel of the playfield, real pity.

I won't lie though, I'm glad I don't have any money in on this. I don't blame anyone for being nervous about that right now. It kind of blows my mind that Jaap and Barry are still silent, but they've demonstrated time and time again that communication with their customers isn't their strong point.

I want to see this game made! But it's just pinball, and it's not worth risking people's money over, so do it right or don't do it at all.

#610 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

So is there going to be another email sent to VIPs?
I can live with the playfield art changes but not having John Goodman VO would be a dealbreaker.

I think the Goodman thing has been misinterpreted. The issue as I understand it is twofold:

1) They can only use approved Universal PR assets of Goodman, and nothing else. And his contract also limits what his likeness is in context with. Like not next to guns. You definitely won't see Walter holding the pistol. That may be why DP apparently needs to remove the playfield gun (and the weed leaf?) I dunno. But it's not that he can't be in the game.

2) They can use his movie dialogue. That part just hasn't been approved yet. Doesn't mean it won't be.

I could be wrong about those, but based on what I've been led to understand those are the facts. So it's not a "no Walter at all" situation.

#700 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

It's been 24 hours, FGS...

Exactly. Meaning a full day, and zero response to the actual issues. They obviously know about it, people are getting private replies from Barry. They still did the DP party in NY. I'm sure they have their side of the story. Maybe Phil isn't 100% in the right here. But speaking of FGS, if you take thousands of dollars from people and the sky looks like it's falling, then you don't get to just chill and party and take your time, you need to reassure people.

I want Phil to be out, and take care of beating his cancer, and I want DP to go on to build an awesome game. I'm hoping for the best! But you gotta take care of business before anything else. When people pay you then you owe them, in more ways than one.

#759 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I think you can... and I think they did... It might not be strictly legal, but if no-one notices it might not such a big problem if the issues are sorted out before the game hits production... unless a good friend publicises on a massive pinball forum, that might get it some attention

Um, pretty sure this "massive pinball forum" isn't noticed by anyone besides us pinball nerds. The drama here is very contained. That ship has sailed though, DP has already been publicizing the machine, for example:

http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/30/6875137/big-lewboski-pinball-photos-video

Let alone being at Expo and Modern (which are still inside baseball, a site like Polygon though is mainstream). So let's not try and point at this thread as some source of issue, if there is one. I didn't find out until after Expo that what was shown wasn't final. The video had the black box over the actors, but the game didn't, so I just assumed the video was made before approvals. I did know about the Khalua bottle of course, that was made obvious at the party with the tape over the bottles (which was brilliant).

RIP pot leaf graphic too.

#774 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

oh my god, this is fucking unbelievable...

About sums it all up!

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#1083 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

They might have underestimated licensing and international business stuff here, but you can't compare some boutique pinball setup that has been working for 5 years on the same pinball design to these guys, who went from planning to actually building 5 prototypes in a matter of one year?

It's a little more than one year, that's just the public perception. Regardless, you're right. I still believe in the vision DP has for TBL. The prototypes look great. The design is inspired.

The funny thing is one reason I initially got in was because I was so impressed with all the work they'd done to secure the licenses. 20 songs. Brunswick. All the hoops they jumped through to get the actors set. I don't know what to credit Phil with or not, but he definitely was an integral part of that. You haven't even heard about it all, there's more, a lot of work was put in. I left Expo seriously impressed.

So people shouldn't think the license stuff was just blown off. It seems like it's more just some impatience to get to Expo and show the product before everything was signed off on. I never had any worries about Universal suing DP or anything like that, more concerns that they'd decide the partnership wasn't working out because the rules weren't being followed and just pulling the license. That would be game over of course.

I don't think Barry and Jaap are trying to defraud anyone. I don't think DP is a scam.

What I am seeing is some really creative people who don't have running a business under control. And the problem is that shit matters. You can't just be creative. You get Jpop and Zidware when that happens.

You don't have to take Phil's side to have concerns here. Bride shipping late, no communication. Turns out Bride is unfinished, which is a big deal for a software-focused project. No communication (just Scott trying to post what he can in the forums, all very vague). That was the last straw for me on getting out on TBL, I can't handle a company that won't communicate doing pre-orders.

And now, once again, total silence in the face of issues. How a company handles a crisis is sometimes the best trial for their competency. Surely everyone expect TBL to ship late too, this isn't an industry known for first timers nailing deadlines. What kind of communication could we expect then? Where is the company now?

Even if you ignore all the issues Phil brings up, it's hard to feel comfortable with the response level. If you want to be a silent creative genius then IMHO you should build the game in silence, and show it when it's done. This "show it early, build hype" model fails badly when you can't keep the communication alive.

#1121 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

This is true. When you are to let a partner out of a partnership, it takes time. Most of the time, the company needs a valuation performed by a CVA in order to even get a good idea as to what the price of buying out the 3rd member could possibly be. Plus not to mention the complicated accounting issues that come to light with buying out a partner (there are multiple accounting treatments to choose from). Like the Dude said, "There are a lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of what-have-yous"

Doesn't sound like that's the issue here. Phil didn't want to be bought out, he was trying to give everything away. It's fine if you want to be careful about liabilities etc, but you don't leave someone who's bailed in charge of a company bank account if that's the kind of approach you have.

Seems the sticking point was finding someone to take over the US side. Phil makes it sound like someone Dutch could just get a TIN, but I dunno if it's really that simple. I have a TIN as part of my corporation, and it was easy to get, but I'm a US citizen. Does the same apply to someone from Holland?

Phil man, I dunno what else can be said at this point. I'm sorry the three of you couldn't just work it out. It doesn't seem necessary to destroy any prototypes, nor does it seem unreasonable to stop showing them in public until things are approved. Both side could have met in the middle. But I guess that bridge is burned.

#1163 4 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I used to PLAY pinball, now I am too busy reading this thread

lol no shit, I can't seem to turn away from it. And I really should at this point, there's nothing more to be gained. I guess it's because I still hope something will work out, I want to see the game happen.

I'm going to go pack Star Trek orders instead!

22
#1248 4 years ago
Quoted from Nog:

To that end, we have brought in Roger Sharpe, acclaimed licensing and marketing expert, to help us as we continue with our final approval process.

Dutch Pinball has called in The Wolf!

the-wolf-pulp-fiction.jpg

20
#1274 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

too little, too late.
I see ZERO reason not to take a wait and see approach with ANY non limited pinball.

How about wait and see with any pinball at all. Forget the limited* asterisk. And yes, that means WOOLY too, sorry. No money for games that don't exist, no matter who makes them or what the theme is.

"Give us money and you'll have a game in 3ish months" would be acceptable, beyond that? Pass.

11
#1302 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Why are you deciding to drawn the line at 3ish months from payment to delivery?

I'll buy a finished machine. No prototypes with unapproved shit. No "this music is just placeholder, we'll figure it out later, honest". No half assed coding. If you need 3 months (arbitrary number, but it's not a year for sure) to build it after taking money then I'm okay with that. Boutique stuff comes with some risk. But no more half assed shit for me.

That means TBL, while it looks incredible. Because it sucks that the game they sold me on is getting the art changed. That means WOOLY, because I don't buy games with spec music tracks. Definitely no Zidware vaporware. No Predator. No pre-ordering Alien without even seeing the damn machine, let alone the designer bailing (though I like that they're coding and shit already, they might meet my model if you ignore the pre-order until the machine is good to go).

Let me put it this way: no more crowd funding of development. You handle that shit by yourself, and sell it to us when it's done, with a pitch for your build plan, and we'll judge off that.

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#1322 4 years ago

IMHO the bottom line is whatever could have been done differently is done now. Phil has cancer, he's in a jammed spot, and he's just doing what he can to get out. It's not about good guys and bad guys. We don't need to choose sides here, it's cool to want the game to be built and for the guy to take care of his health.

Japp and Barry have to divest themselves of Phil. It's what he wants, but it's also what Dutch Pinball needs. No one is going to feel comfortable until that's settled. Simple or complicated figure that shit out, and make it a priority. We don't need to know the tax details, not our problem, been enough over sharing. Just make sure you do it right and can reassure everyone.

So DP, get Roger on Universal, we all know he can handle that shit. Listen to him if he tells you to stop taking world tours with unapproved machines ffs. And get Phil out of there.

Then he can focus on trying to beat a bitch of a disease, and you can focus on trying to build a bad ass bitch of a game. This is drama, but no one wants it to be the end of anything.

#1325 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

All of this PLUS that damn aurich guy needs to get those Shadow translite sets out before Xmas...

Haha, I'm trying!!! Dunno if you saw my update, but printer accidentally printed the speaker panels mirrored, text is backwards, making them pretty useless.

I'm packing Star Trek right now, just keep getting distracted by emails, and then of course I have to check Pinside ... Ffffff, forget being addicted to pre-orders, how do I stay off this website???!!

#1373 4 years ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

New boutiques just need to get their staff together, and if they're truly THAT passionate about starting a manufacturing line to make their machine en masse, they will all go out and secure $50,000 loans (each), or second mortgages, or max their credit cards, and/or sink their retirement savings into their company. That's what groups of entrepreneurs do if they have a dream.

It's also a great test for how serious the people are. Is the business idea viable enough to secure loans? Or are people serious enough to put their own skin in the game? Can they handle getting that part together? Can you build a fully functional game to show people before you announce anything?

With the "kickstarter" model all you need is an idea, and a way to articulate it (hopefully without puppets). That's not that much work, relatively speaking. Then later down the line you discover you can't hack it (Skit-B) and things turn into a mess.

Clearly DP did a lot before asking for pre-orders, so I presume they're financed on some level.

11
#1415 4 years ago
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

And I think you would endorse their pre-order model, $1500 now and not another dime until its ready to be built and shipped.

Well you'd be wrong, because I don't endorse that model. Sending in money for a game you've never even seen a photo of? Madness. You can't even tell me what it looks like! You've seen some 3D renders and a drawing, and nothing else. You don't know what they're using from the movie, what the screen embedded in the playfield will do. The designer quit because he didn't think the deadline was reasonable. Hell no would I endorse spending a dime on that *right now*.

After they show the game, sure. Awesome theme, a company that has a build under their belt, might work out. I'm not down on them at all. But it's way too early to call. And that's the whole point. Wait until they show their cards before you show them cash.

#1454 4 years ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

Completely agree w Aurich, just giving my take on Alien....is what it is.....mark

Of course you agree with me, I'm right!

I think the "dream theme" bit is still the real tough test. And hey, it's your money, do whatever you're comfortable with. It's just that with Alien I didn't see any indication that you wouldn't be able to just buy one later when they're done. So the incentive to get on the rollercoaster just seems to be missing to me. You're not getting extra chrome or a rug or a price break are you?

#1462 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisVW:

Has Roger Sharpe confirmed this? Has he left WMS?

Roger does license consulting. The way I hear it this isn't even the first time he's worked with Dutch Pinball. Easy guess what that means.

#1509 4 years ago
Quoted from SolarRide:

why is John Goodman being a holdout for licensing ? He doesn't strike me as being a Michael J Fox/David Copperfield type of guy.

I think he's just not someone who doesn't do licensing deals at all. Not interested I guess. And he has veto power of what he's placed next to. No guns I think. So whatever rights Universal has to his likeness and performance are on the table, but nothing extra. I really think people are unnecessarily worried about the Goodman part. Maybe that's why the gun has to come off, the weed, I dunno, but they're not going to have him not be in the game as far I understood.

Nothing is approved yet, so who the hell knows, but I'd just stop worrying about it all, no way he won't be in the pin.

12
#1650 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

If the insinuations are true of the next title(s) and that Roger has helped already, I would say Roger may have been in the mix longer than early November.

It's my understanding that Roger was involved with Bride 2.0, which isn't exactly astounding news, it's a Williams property, who else is the man to talk to?

Regardless, I don't think it has anything to do with Phil leaving, it's not a magic bullet, I wouldn't start jumping to conclusions about Roger somehow being a DP partner and running shit, but I'm sure he can help smooth out the rest of the licensing discussions.

At this stage it's really pointless to wonder who's at fault, and what really happened. There's enough bullshit that's easily stated as fact (for instance that Phil even had access to the bank weeks after leaving the company messily) that people have a right to feel uncomfortable without anyone accusing them of having weak stomachs or no balls or whatever.

Either DP can still make the game or they can't. If they can't it probably wasn't meant to be, shit happens in manufacturing, you gotta be flexible. If they can, then great, can't wait to see the final product. I'm personally pulling for them, and have no ill will towards anyone. Everyone involved are humans who make mistakes, I don't believe anyone had actual evil intentions.

#1668 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Barry's focus after getting BOP 2.0 was to get the line up and running.

My concern, and one of the things I cited when I left, is what happened to the focus on finishing BOP 2.0?

The internal machinations of whether it was a "real" DP product or not don't mean anything to me, it's the public face of the company's first launch, and it's not going that great.

I'm glad to hear that US kits should hopefully be shipping soon, but they're shipping an incomplete game that doesn't have metamorphosis. You know, the actual cool gimmick in the game.

If they can't handle that, then what does that mean for TBL's code? Did they drop one thing to work on the other? And will they drop working on TBL to get all excited about Back to the Future, or The Matrix, or whatever the next shiny thing is?

These are the kind of concerns I have when I look at pre-orders.

24
#1669 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Right now instead of working on the game and working through Phil's transition, they are now also having to do damage control.

Well, to be blunt, oh f**king well. Because if they'd just taken care of business right they wouldn't be doing damage control. So lesson learned guys, you're running a business, not just playing with awesome toys. It's not all pinball design and taking trips to show off what you're doing.

I'm not defending Phil here, I have a lot of sympathy for the guy, but obviously things got out of control. But it didn't need to come to this point in the first place.

Regardless, it's what they do now that matters. And if they have to take some time off to make the business shit work, then good. Because better now then in the middle of manufacturing frankly.

10
#1679 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

I want a drag off of what you two are smoking. Respectfully, I have to call BS. Getting the line up while attending a party in NYC?

Yeah, have to agree with this. The NY party was totally unnecessary and stupid. They had the games at Expo just a couple months ago, there was zero reason to fly them back to the US. That's not a free trip, it costs money, it costs time, and since they're still showing the unapproved assets it's a risk to the project.

"Barry is super busy and shouldn't have to deal with this" rings hollow if he has time to party overseas.

Time to just focus on the task at hands guys.

And edible are way too hard to titrate, vaping ++

#1688 4 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

Not true. DP wouldn't be doing damage control if Phil hadn't deliberately acted to cause damage and hurt them.
We are not informed to the extent DP was working to resolve Phil's concerns.

Dude Phil couldn't have even touched the money if they'd handled business.

#1693 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

So, these guys built a commercial pinball machine based on a theme they didn't have permission to use? And NOW they're trying to get permission?

No.

#1700 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

So they had permission but hadn't worked out the details, and now may have violated the arrangement? Tricky stuff.

Okay, cliff notes:

Dutch Pinball has the Big Lebowski License. Totally legit, working with Universal.

Early on they had some issues with how they were using it. Doesn't matter what or why. Phil took over the communication, if nothing else he's a native English speaker, and a sharp guy.

There were a lot of tricky bits to navigate to get approvals. What you're allowed to do with the actors for instance. And as you've seen, some actors have different problems to navigate. John Goodman is one. You probably haven't heard about Julian Moore, who is a L'Oréal spokeswoman, and they have approval rights over her public image.

IMHO DP and Phil were doing an awesome job navigating that maze. It's one thing that really sold me on them. Clever workarounds, loop holes, patience, etc.

So far so good.

The problem is that the process was still ongoing. Some things were further than others. My guess is the translite was final for instance. That was all done using approved PR assets and Photoshop filtering, to stick with the letter of the law about not doing renders. They got an exception to draw in The Stranger's other arm I think.

That stuff is key, DP wasn't allowed to just grab frames from the movie, or draw the characters themselves. They'd tried that and got shot down, I think that's when Phil got involved, not sure.

So basically what DP was showing was less final than we believed. We're seeing that now with the gun and pot leaf vanishing I guess.

The issue is that by doing that they risked Universal getting pissed off. I don't think anyone was going to get sued or anything ridiculous like that. But they could have potentially decided the liability of this company representing their brand was too high and pulled the plug.

That's the main source of conflict. And I might have some details wrong, I don't have all sides of the story. The point is that while there was some rule bending, and possibly issues, no one is saying they didn't have the license. It just hasn't finished the approval process.

#1714 4 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

Is this what Phil was referring to when he spoke about the difficult cast member during the Expo seminar?
What about the 20 songs? Is that licensing final? Phil also mentioned GM (the Dude's car) and Brunswick being on board. Any word on that being locked in?

No idea which cast member he meant. Could be. I won't go into more details, but it seems silly to worry about leaking things at this stage. I really only brought it up as an example of the lengths DP was going to do things right. I think we're seeing there was also corner cutting, and that's unfortunate, but a shitload of work was put into making this game happen from a license standpoint.

And really, maybe that's what was frustrating Phil. You got back and forth with f**king L'Oréal of all companies to get your game legit, and then people start showing things prematurely potentially screwing all that up.

It's hard to not want to show things. And Expo was an event they didn't want to miss. I get that. But sometimes someone has to care about the rules.

18
#1810 4 years ago

It's funny that the Blu-Ray can have Walter with a gun, but the pinball can't.

17
#1905 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

I just wish that money was back in my bank now and not sitting in paypal limbo at the whim of phil.

Just reminding everyone that Phil is currently dealing with his cancer treatments, and even if he wants to help everyone and has the best intentions there's probably not going to be super fast resolution on any of this. So I would say there's probably going to be a little patience required for this part of the process.

#2037 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Roger's involvement appears to be strictly as a consultant and focused only on licensing issues.

That's all he should be doing. I'm not sure what else anyone would expect? That he's going to suddenly become a partner in the business or something? He's a hired gun, brought in to finish the license stuff.

1 week later
#2253 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I'm concerned about Phil as well...not so much the DP team
Just Phil I wonder what his motivates are?
He says the lisceanse is fucked...then we learn not really. cabinet and translite have been approved by Universal.

He never said the license was fucked. He never implied that it wasn't real. Things simply aren't 100% approved, which DP isn't denying. Hence Roger Sharpe.

He was nervous that showing unapproved things in public could jeopardize the license and the game. Maybe it wouldn't have, maybe it would. It was a risk.

Not saying Phil did the right thing. But let's try and see all sides here and understand the issue. It made me nervous when I found out about it personally.

My guess is of all the problems that won't be one. Roger is exactly who they need to close things down on that front.

#2263 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I skipped the last 1500 or so posts in this thread and clicked on the last page to see what I missed. Thanks for the above post as I think I caught up without have to spend half an hour wading through the other 1500.

My Christmas present to you!

#2267 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

It's a "Holiday" present. Stop being insensitive

It's just an excuse to have a good time and give presents to me, I'm not a religious person. So I guess I'm part of the evil war on Christmas secular holiday people.

All I know is I'm sitting on a couch with a laptop, I smell bacon, there's a huge Christmas tree and tons of loot, so merry Christmas!

#2283 4 years ago

I dropped out pre-Phil and still got my shirt yesterday. Medium just like Barry promised too, even though that wasn't an option. I kinda feel bad about getting it now, but I guess as long as it's shipped to me all I can do is hope that Dutch Pinball kicks ass so I can wear it as a show of support.

#2358 4 years ago
Quoted from edmorex:

I got a reply from Barry saying they are close but still working on a solution (w.r.t. my deposits in DP USA). He also mentioned that I can hold off on the 1/1/2015 deposit and still keep my place in line while we wait for more info about the situation.
Seems reasonable. I'm willing to sit tight for a few weeks.

I guess I don't get why Barry will take the time to send that to individuals, but not take the time to just send that email to everyone. Drama breeds in a vacuum. People just don't want the uncertainty. Tell them you're working on it and they're not forgotten and most people will probably just be patient.

#2363 4 years ago

I think 1-4 are fair, 5 isn't. I don't think there's any real sign that DP can't survive.

#2424 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Aurich, there are a couple of notable red flags in this very thread regarding the company's liquidity (e.g., upstreaming of funds to pay for affiliate expenses, some refunds issued while others are still on hold). The latter appears to be in direct conflict with the company's stated policy that customer deposits are fully refundable.

Agreed, 100%. But that can also all be explained by simply being bad at business. Which I think it's pretty obvious is a fact, even if they're great at designing pinballs.

From what I've heard they have outside financing, which is how they got all this great work done before taking any money. I don't know if that's true, or what the details are. But obviously there was a ton of work done before pre-orders opened, something paid for that time.

Here it is, the literal end of the year, and they're not saying anything (edit: apparently a newsletter email tomorrow?). I'm not super hopeful it's all going smoothly. But I also think it's a little early to say they've collapsed.

#2425 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

OK, here´s a question for all you little urban presumers out there... it has been stated that Phil got nervous of business practices and potential licensing issues and therefore started this whole fiasco... and many have agreed with this idea... my question is: can anyone explain where this knowledge came from? It is simply what Phil said...

FWIW his story has been the same since he left DP. It just didn't go public until this thread.

#2506 4 years ago

I honestly think it's time to stop talking about Phil.

It really doesn't matter why he did it. Or if he was lying, or in the wrong, or anything else.

It happened. There's no taking it back.

What's important now is how the company moves forward. I hope they rally and make an awesome game, I still believe it's a great title.

Shit happens. If you want to be a big boy company that sells $9k products then you've gotta figure out how to roll with the punches.

Best of luck to Dutch Pinball. My advice, if you care, is what I've tried to tell you all along: communicate more. Take the time. Keep people involved. It's how you'll build trust and confidence back. Well that and stop sending out vague messages about money. Either you're true to your word and can refund people, or you're not.

Thanks for the t-shirt. I'm gonna keep it in my drawer for now. But my honest hope for 2015 is that I'll feel like taking it out and wearing it. I wouldn't mind playing your game some more too!

1 week later
#2736 4 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Why is the location such a big secret?

I wasn't aware it was any kind of secret at all. It rhymes with Harry from Pinball Strife.

Consider the good rep "Harry" has with the community I can't see how anyone would unhappy about that.

2 weeks later
#3034 4 years ago
Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

If I wanted crickets I'd play Frontier dammit!

Was worth wading back through this thread just to read that line!

#3038 4 years ago

On the good news front it looks like the roadblock on shipping US BOP 2.0 has been solved and those will be going soon, that might give people some small amount of confidence.

#3117 4 years ago

Pretty sure you will not be able to change the music on TBL. It's going to be encrypted with some kind of DRM. It's P-ROC, so you could swap out the hard drive and write your own code from scratch, but short of breaking the DRM it's not going to be "replace audio file".

That's just part and parcel with doing a licensed title.

1 week later
#3215 4 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

I'm curious - to those that saw the 'pre-approved' field - has anything changed?

Pot leaf is gone. This makes me very sad actually. Sucks some of the character out of the game, sorry the license had to wuss out like that.

No more gun. Too bad, but oh well.

The character inserts have lost the attempts to filter them to feel more in line with the playfield art and are now just straight up photos. They look pretty awful unfortunately, but that's obviously something where the license process tied their hands.

Obviously the coffee liqueur part. We can't see things like the spinners to know if Time is still on there.

Without looking at the old design that's all that jumps out at me right now.

Still think the art kicks ass, just feels a little bit like seeing a rad concept car, and then the production model takes out some of the parts you really loved because they didn't mean some standard and had to be watered down.

None of it would be a deal breaker for me if I was still in though, and I'm looking forward to seeing it fully populated again.

#3229 4 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

also like the girls facing forward in top left! actually looks better IMHO Aurich, don't see much change in characters faces........can you explain i'm no artsy kinda person.

I can't even remember now what was on the playfield at Expo. My memory is that they tried to filter the faces a bit like the translite, to make them feel less like photos. But I could be off. Either way they're what they are, obviously the license said "don't F with the photos of the actors dudes" and they had no choice. So it goes, not a huge deal.

Really I still think it all looks great. I don't mean to be negative. I praised the art once and I still feel like they did a killer job.

It's just the risk of showing things early, before approvals. You get attached to ideas that change later.

#3252 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yeah I think people are imagining the people's faces being different? The rendering we have today is from solid works or something vs real game has inserts behind / back lit that I think change the visual?

It's the same faces, but they looked lightly filtered before. But honestly I'm going off memory at this point, it's been months since I've seen game in person. This is a license thing, DP can't change it, so it just is what it is. It doesn't ruin anything, just a pity it couldn't be more illustrated. So it goes!

#3256 4 years ago
Quoted from mechslave:

While seeing playfield art mockups and approval is cool, I'd like to see an example of some real infrastructure to DP as a company. Do they have a factory? Manufacturing equipment? Assembly line? Trained laborers? Service dept?

They're outsourcing the build (with their management of the process), the factory and equipment already exist.

I honestly still think everyone will see their game, if they can just manage to not lose all their customers before they build them.

#3264 4 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

No mention of whether the cabinet art and backglass were approved or needed change?

Not sure about the cab, though with no actors on it I don't anticipate any issues, but I believe the translite has already been approved.

#3270 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

I believe the Translite is where they really filtered the photos of the actors to try and give them a painted look. Curious to see if that got changed back to straight photos.

Should be fine. Yes, it was filtered, but they did it in several stages, showing their work so to speak, with a long back and forth with the studio over it, and ultimately cleared it. So unless something has changed it should be safe.

26
#3342 4 years ago

It's really not that complicated. I sell things on Pinside, and I don't get into huge fights with people. Spooky sells games on Pinside, no drama. Laseriffic, Hooked, etc etc.

It just takes a little communication and understanding. The drama happens when you hide things, you don't keep your word, you go silent.

Rick's his own worst enemy. I'm still getting pissed off emails from him over posting his MMr photos. Accusing me of committing a crime etc.

Think about that for a moment. Someone who was happy to sell Pinsiders $8,000 games is freaking out that pictures he took of them being made are available to those same people. That's how petty this is.

Somehow I'm not shocked that someone with that kind of personality has drama on a forum.

My take is simple: If you're happy to be hear when people are lining up to stuff cash in your pockets then you should be happy to be here for those people later when they have questions.

Rick, Kevin, Barry, whoever.

13
#3348 4 years ago

I simply cannot explain it. Here is Rick, finally at his freaking moment of triumph. All the delays and doubts and bullshit, and he has photos of Medieval F-ing Madness remakes on the line, and he's furious that someone posted them where all his customers (and potential customers) could see them.

Then after he seems to wise up and let it go days later he starts emailing me again, and tried to call me.

Robin can take them down if that's what he wants, I'm not doing it. This is Robin's site, not Rick's.

Can you imagine any other pinball company being mad that we're posting pictures of their games, in a positive manner no less? It beggars the imagination's ability to conjure rationality.

Here, to keep this on topic, here's another blatant copyright crime:

tbl_home.png

11
#3356 4 years ago
Quoted from anubis2night:

And aurich, sorry to hear your continued issues with mr. Personality lol...

Not gonna keep me up at night. I'll just tell people what's happening and let it be on his head. I won't be bullied. I couple people think I'm being a dick for defying him I guess, but somehow I'll live with that too.

It doesn't seem to matter how many times it turns into a clusterf---, time after time these pinball businesses try and shut their customers out. And all it generates is grief.

If you want to work in silence then don't take any money from people. Once you start taking cash you owe them. No one in on TBL deserves to be in the dark. It's amazingly easy to just be honest. Pinheads are a fickle bunch, but you talk to us, tell us what's up, and we're also amazingly patient.

It's when you try to be all secretive and hide shit that you get pummeled. Don't like it? Pay for your projects yourself instead of chasing crowd funding.

#3358 4 years ago
Quoted from anubis2night:

Y ah, I tuink Asia could be a really great opportunity for growth. They have several popular themes that would translate well to pinball I think

I'd like to see one of the Japanese redemption game teams make a pin. Could be the most over the top machine ever built.

I've always assumed pinball wasn't big in Japan because the machines are just so huge. Most people don't have the kind of space needed to collect them.

1 week later
#3391 4 years ago

Hey, some positive news. Glad to see it. Hopefully DP can just focus on building a great game, and shipping them, and people who got out can decide if they want to buy still after they're real.

#3458 4 years ago

Really glad to see signs that this ship is being righted. Not there yet, but positive steps for sure.

I've heard good things about the actual factory side too, so here's hoping!

13
#3506 4 years ago

Dear Lee Buck,

Sir, I write you with the utmost urgency to inform you of a most wonderful opportunity. Your great uncle Buck has sadly passed away, and left the sum total of his vast fortune to the first Buck to claim it.

Unfortunately his money is all tied up in Nigerian Twinkies futures, and so to free the sum of 6 million dollars we will need a paltry amount of money to liquidate, surely no more than $20,000.

Please to be replying to this email with your bank account number, SWIFT code, bank name, and address so we can bring you this blessed money.

Your friend always,

Mr. Goldfinger

14
#3514 4 years ago

So wait, this is the story now? They're telling people who asked for refunds to f- off? Seriously?

Come one now, these are your early customers! You can't seriously mean that! Your company has been run like shit, you looked like you didn't have even the most basic control over something you flat out promised, and now you're going to punish people?

If that's seriously what's going on here then I'm going to go throw my DP t-shirt in the trash. Well scratch that, I'll wax my car with it or something, but that's just ridiculous. Please tell me I'm misunderstanding, but this is the second story that's played out the same way.

24
#3519 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

I bet they are looking at each situation. As you can see here since the refunds some of the negative nancies still post to Pinside conjecture vs wait for a DP answer. I agree with not wanting them as customers.

That's ridiculous. Utterly stupid. I can't comprehend it. Fine, give a special plaque to your die hards, who cares. But to tell someone who pre-ordered your game, and was promised a no questions and no problems refund, that they're no longer welcome as a customer after taking them up on that offer?

Insane. Petty. Vindictive. And the opposite of any company I would ever want to support. Glad they don't have my money.

Edit: To be clear I'd be fine with those people being bumped to the back of the line. Or denied the rug, whatever. Who cares. But to say "we don't want your money, go f- off"? Not very dude like.

#3526 4 years ago
Quoted from ozno:

If it's just me then fair enough. I angered the king, I have no axe to grind. I support all the pinball companies fully.

Sounded like it was Molly too, and she's no bullshitter. Maybe it's a misunderstanding, because I just can't wrap my head around it.

16
#3531 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I have to admit, if I saw something like this, and it was my business.. sure, I might be a little ticked off as well.

I'm not selling $9,000 pinball machines, but I do a lot of business with Pinsiders. If someone wants a refund for any reason I give it to them. If they change their mind and want back in, hey great, if I've still got stock for you I'm happy to take care of you. I like making people happy. And, let's be honest here, I'm getting paid for it too.

If you bail, I sell your spot to someone else, and then you want back? All good! Just understand that I couldn't wait for you, and you're in the back of the line now. Take care of you as soon as I can.

If I was starting a boutique pinball company I'd be happy for every order. And pre-orders? Those are the people standing up for you! And if I f––k up and people are unhappy and bailing, that's my damn fault, and I hope I can woo them back.

Dutch Pinball made a promise. Get your money back, any time before your build starts, no problem. Be comfortable, get on our team, we'll take care of you. They broke that promise. You can blame Phil or Barry or Jaap or just call it a perfect storm, shit happens. But no customer should be punished for it, sure wasn't their fault.

Yes, pre-ordering takes some balls. But we are talking thousands of dollars. It's one thing for there to be some delays, and it's another for a huge public fight, utter loss of control of banking, and random unrequested refunds flying around. That's not normal shit.

DP had a chance to right things. But they were silent, and left people hanging for a long time, uncertain if anyone would see a dime back. I'm hopeful they've got it all figured out now. But I can't respect any company that would flip the bird to customers who were understandably upset and nervous by what went down with their money.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding here. I'd be glad to be wrong. Because it seems seriously ass backwards to me!

#3558 4 years ago
Quoted from rvdv:

Hi Aurich
I have to correct you
My friend Lee buck is a good guy
And his details are accurate
Please be nice to him
Thank you

I was just messing around with all the talk of wiring money and the kind of spam I get every day, all in good humor.

Ultimately this is about DP guys, no reason to turn on each other. My wish is for everyone to get the game if they want one. If you're out then hey, that works too. It's what I did, I sure ain't judging!

And even if they're being petty that doesn't make them nazis, so let's keep this in perspective.

#3579 4 years ago

I think from what I'm hearing that there was a misunderstanding, which is good, because I just couldn't fathom DP acting this way.

Here's the way I see it though: everyone has a right to an opinion, whether you're in or out on something. I was in, then dropped out before this whole mess. That doesn't give me any more or less right to thoughts.

There's no reason to be attacking each other though.

My only concern is this: is DP acting in a way that would make me not want to support them as a company? If not on this game then a future one. That's valid for anyone to think about. It seems like the answer is no, which is good, and hopefully they'll clear the air. And that's fine and all I need.

Otherwise I'm just hoping they produce awesome games for people to enjoy.

#3582 4 years ago
Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

I don't think anyone cares anymore

I care! How people treat my friends matters to me at least.

#3586 4 years ago

I feel you on Predator, but Heighway hasn't done anything yet to earn needing a pass IMHO. Maybe a little behind schedule, but that's pretty much to be expected from anyone trying to guess ahead of time how smoothly something will go, and they've been doing solid updates on progress.

#3591 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I've seen TBL about 5 times and don't remember seeing a pot leaf in it... I'll pay more attention next time!

There is none of that evil devil weed in this fine movie sir!

Feb_GreatMomentsInGrooming_BigLebowski_480x340.jpgJeffBridges_TBL.jpg

#3595 4 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

I'm envisioning a lit doobie mod - with a faintly glowing (LED) tip - perched on the right plastic next to the White Russian.

Genius. I'm already thinking of how I could make that. Joint is easy, it's getting the cherry to glow right that would be the work.

12
#3598 4 years ago

Consider a smoldering doobie mod for TBL taken care of, Scott and I are already plotting.

#3602 4 years ago

Stopped at the store for research supplies.

image.jpg

#3628 4 years ago

Actually when it comes to getting games off the line I think the man on the mission you need to look to is Jaap.

#3642 4 years ago

I'm starting to think that Scott and I aren't going to sell one of our TBL glowing joint mods to eggbert52.

34
#3666 4 years ago

I built a prototype of a lit joint mod for TBL last night, couldn't resist seeing the idea happen after it was brought up.

It's really hard to photograph, the camera blows out the lit part to white, but if you look at the reflection that's a little closer to real life, it's actually a full on orange, with painted ash over it, looks movie-prop-quality realistic in person.

Right now I have a candle flicker LED in it, so it pulses and flickers. Scott has ideas for a custom control board that could do some fancier effects. Slow burn, or a pass setting where it would flare up every once in a while as people "hit it".

If there's interest we can make these a real mod, we're just having fun with it right now.

IMG_3535.JPG

#3668 4 years ago

Honestly the only financial stuff with DP I think is "worrisome" is the whole Dutch company vs US company thing. And it seems they're getting that settled finally.

Remember, everything else we've seen from them is really professional. The prototypes at Expo for instance, they looked like production machines. Done without a pre-order dime.

That new video with the rug testing. That's something really thought through.

Jaap from what I hear is really strong on managing the factory production end of things.

I'm out, I have no money on the line. So I don't want to overstate anything. I think people have a right to feel nervous, DP has let people down a little, but I still believe there's a group of people dedicated to seeing this game happening, and they have the resources to pull it off.

#3673 4 years ago

Yeah, I just posted the joint in here since this is where the idea spawned, wanted to give back.

But you're right, this is a silly thread for it all.

#3679 4 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

That was one of the coolest things I've ever seen! Great job!
But what was even cooler was seeing you were doing the same thing that I am doing: TAXES!!! Ha.
Mike in Kentucky

Taxes, enough to drive a man to lighting a joint.

#3687 4 years ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Great initial work Aurich - this is well on the way to just what I was picturing! Especially love the varying glow! A few refinements - dim the intensity down a bit, add some more ash, a little more body to the joint, and route the wire through the bottom so that it can be concealed through a drilled hole in the White Russian "table top" - and there you go. I see one with the tip extending over the plunger lane next to the White Russian on my game.
Looking forward to the final product - please put me down for one in the meantime!

Scott has one of the proto TBL machines, so we'll figure out how the wire will be routed.

The intensity and ash look way better in person, the photo just doesn't do it justice. Blows out like it's white hot, but in person it's a lovely solid orange, with bits of black flecks looking like cooled ash on the outside. But that's something we'd nail with the board that powers it, since it will do different fade effects to the cherry.

This was just a test build to see if the concept worked, and I can't stop flicking it on to look at it, came out better than I would have even hoped. Wish I could take a pic that did it justice, I'll work on figuring that out.

In the meantime here's a quick photo of what it looks like off, you can't see the LED at all. Paint job was just a quickie too, the brown isn't quite right, I just used some leather dye I had handy from my Metallica hammers.

image.jpg

#3691 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

The brown looks pretty good to me... maybe would be improved if there were also some brown streaks further away from the tip along the body...?

Sounds like this might require some research.

#3695 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Exhibit A:

J.jpg 4 KB

Yeah, what I really need is a properly thinned paint instead of leather dye, that will let me build up a few layers, so I can feather it out as it travels further from the cherry.

I'll mess with it more, but no real rush, no one has machines to install them on, and Scott needs to time to mess with the fade circuit. I'm satisfied that it can be done to a level of realism that will match up to the white russian on the playfield, and that's what really counts.

#3701 4 years ago

mikeincali already did a severed toe mod, and people were grossed out by it. I'll pass.

#3709 4 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

It's amazing that you guys press the tilt function for boobies because God forbid your kids are in the room and yet you let the illegal marijuana pictures run wild with no opposition. Nice parenting.

Make you a deal. You link to a post with an "illegal marijuana picture" and I'll tilt it.

14
#3720 4 years ago

Well I "tested" my Dude Doobie™ mod tonight on my friend, who's a regular imbiber of cannabis. I hid the battery and wires up my sleeve and held it up to ask him if he wanted to hit it. He reached for it, before I started busting out laughing and ruined any chance of seeing what would happen if he actually tried to take it from me.

So I think it's passed the test.

#3746 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

But replaced by "unsafe" tags of some sort (I've seen the tag, but don't see that users can apply them so maybe they're just for mods?)

It's the little (!) in the lower right of images.

#3769 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

If people still want to chat about stuff here, so be it I guess..

Once there's something new and positive to talk about a new thread will form and people will rally around it. Until then it's just pissing in the wind. Might as well keep it here as anywhere.

When Scott and I figure out our mod I'll start a new thread for it.

#3804 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You need to ask Eggbert!

Careful, I hear there's a piss test.

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