(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


5 years ago

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#570 5 years ago

I'm new here but have been following this for a while. At this point I think it's best to:

a) collectively sign a petition asking the owners of DP to address the concerns and allow everyone to move onto the joys of this project. Give them a week or till wed to get it together (basically give them some time but make it definitive)

B) get some answer on the USA owners for BoP 2.0. This was the more important issue brought up in the last day. Those are people that should be getting product soon and should have something finished that could prove to people how this project will be down the line.

C) TBL has a lot of issues being dealt with, a lot of what have you's. My point is new shit will come to light. Let's be respectful of both sides. Persoanlly I wouldn't want to be where Phil is right now. At the same time I would be that the guys in Denmark aren't used to dealing with Hollywood and perhaps aren't used to how USA law can be versus their own country. At any rate I'm hoping the game wraps up nicely..

#681 5 years ago

Here's my take so far, I am hoping everyone will be ok and that this pin gets made but in the meantime, at least so far, Phil's the only one chatting with customers and answering questions (beyond that quick press release posted by a 3rd party)beyond that, Phil is also actively giving back funds and being fairly open about it. To me that speaks more to his character than the rest of this. Also I'm highly suspicious of the BoP development at this point as those quick screen grabs show it seriously behind and lacking funds.

Ash yourselves this, if the BoP project can have these kind of problems and not have enough funds to complete that they have to dip into other funds (possibly TBL from the looks of it) where's the next round of funds going to come from when this project needs them to be completed?

#706 5 years ago


I've been where you are before. I used to have a high end collectible store and had a distributorship for a toy line for NorthAmerica. This one company was taking forever to get their product done, meanwhile they were constantly developing new toys and exclsuives for the asian market (which makes sense and I had no issue with) but they had issues with communication. When I first started out with them they were very vocal in messages usually a several each day but as production ran on it became near non existent. Customers had preorders in for over six months and I held the money the whole time, (tax issues on preorders are a pain in the ass). At some point I was hoping to wrap up the online tore and close it up, the only problem was this one preorder that had become long long overdue. I sent messages to the owners of the property for a few months and each month I continued to pay bills on a company that I wanted to close up but kept it going as I felt it was important for customers to know their money was still there and the business was still around until their orders were shipped.

At some point I finally gave up and wrote an email press release explaining that there was lack of communication and that I was refunding the money. before I sent it off I sent a copy of the note to customers to the company I was dealing with and asked for some kind of information on the production schedule and explained that my costs were continuing to be incurred until this was settled. I heard nothing, and after 10 days I said screw it and sent the email to customers, posted the news on my website and refunded everyone.

I posted a lost as the preorders were past Paypals time frame so I couldn't just refund I had to send new payments (and eat the paypal costs both ways). I directed customers to the company and sent the company my database of customers with the request that they complete any orders from them (once they received payment directly). All the customers understood as I kept them in the loop as this was happening (i.e, when I recieved emails about the delays I sent an email to both the customer and the company )forwarding the communication with the company to the customer) so they understood. As with this case people were mainly concerned with getting their items. They eventually got them

Now that company still makes great toys. They haven't gone under. So I'm hoping that anyone dealing with this still gets their stuff done as well, but lack of communication can be hard if your the guy holding the ball, and at least in the USA that's Phil. Except it sounds like he's stuck without as many tools...

The only thing I would say Phil, coming from someone that was in a similar situation is this, I would share too many of the other details like other future projects. (though I know it must be tempting with the amount of funds you've already spent on this project).

As for the folks at DP, I am hoping it's like everyone else hopes, that they are making a great pinball and are going to deliver. But I'd be cautious until BoP gets done. That should tell you how the other projects will go.

#719 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Great another newly minted identity weighing in.

Because I shouldn't have an opinion?

#771 5 years ago

one of the issues not brought up yet here is the people who have claims beyond the 45 - 60 days. While Phil can send money to the customers once he can confirm their info, he will need to send them the funds collected to far back as a new payment a(after a certain amount of days the refund option is not available to the seller) this means he will have to eat the paypal fee's on both ends. That will add up quickly depending on the total amount collected past the 45 - 60 days marker. that 2.9% adds up fast

#788 5 years ago

thats good to know. I paid of of pocket before was out several hundred but was better to know that customers were taken care of in a situation like this. I wonder how long it takes to put a lot of orders through over the phone with paypal, also paypal is crap on the phone though (based on my experience)

#791 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Yep they suck in terms of customer service. Totally agree this would be difficult to do but certainly can be done

still totally worth the time invested if you can skip the 2.9% fee for sending money back. if they had something like 50 - 100K that would easily be worth the time on the phone and loss of hair from being pulled out in frustration lol...

#795 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

That would be a good idea, but go astep further, combine DP with Heighway, Skit-B and any other small pin company and combine resources and make a powerhouse. Sounds awesome but highly unlikely. There is a lot of creative minds in those groups.

better yet, just get them to all use the same manufacturer and sub the work out under a combined contract thereby allowing them to cut costs, they could also set up better customer support (imagine if 2 - 4 smaller companies all used the same back end parts) that would allow for future items to be easier to repair as well as solve issues for distributors to keep a smaller set of regular parts on hand.

#802 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

This is why I always question the point when people say "I'll just challenge the payment and done, risk free". There is always risk even with paypal or American Express.

I love this post. Wish I could give you more than one thumbs up.

I'm going to take the next couple hours to sniff out the duplicate accounts...clearly a couple have popped up in this thread...

As a mod on another forum this shouldn't be too hard just check ips location. If your referring to me send me a pm or Google me...

#827 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

You were one I looked at...I'm sure you understand you appear to be a likely duplicate at first glance. You're clean though.

Yeah I've been there before.

#1400 5 years ago

Glad to see the press release.

I have now read all the posts here in this thread and here's my takeaway:

Building pinballs is hard. My hats off to Phil and the guys at DP. It appears that DP is working towards a resolution. It also appears that this only happened after phil went public.

That being said I believe they are on their way to resolving issues for many. But there are some huge hurdles that still need to be addressed.

Make no mistake, while the prototype and liscensing issues once resolved will be big they will not compare to actual production and shipping. Having worked with a few companies (not pinballs) I can tell you that the next few steps are huge and will really test the company.

Also, word to the wise, I for one wouldn't want to be an early adopter with a low production order. It's common knowledge that early productions almost always end up with a ton of gremlins to iron out.

I'd be interested in the BoP 2.0 to get my feet wet with DP after the first of the year and then I'd look into TBL though honestly I'd feel much more comfortable with something like $3000 down and a monthly payment until the machine is ready. Given the process of production and delivery I'd be amazed if these go through production in less than 6 - 9 months. (Again I'm not privy to the schedule of production for a typical pinball machine).

I'd still love to see DP succeed, part of that would be great to see them outline a series of dates where they feel their project will be in terms of completion, ie when it will be into manufacturing, when it will go through beta testing, when they think they'll roll out infill orders ect ect.

But I'd expect any new company to do this just to set a tone for what their building and in exchange for people investing 9 grand with them

#1412 5 years ago

Is there anything to gain really being first in line? Early adopters will basically be the beta testers for the equipment to get all the bugs out. From the looks of the machine this will be a great game but it's also complex, I wouldn't be counting on it to run perfect right out the gate...

#1996 5 years ago

So just curious, at this point how does anyone know which money their accounts went to, as long as both phil and Barry can point to each other and claim missing information or not having access to an account, it seems like a good excuse to not issue a refund. Please note: I'm not saying either would do this, but this situation seems ripe for problems. At any time either party can claim they don't know and send a customer to the other guy.

I don't have any money tied into this yet but if I did I'd be hoping for more transparency as to how this will be rectified and a timeline for when it will be, as well as some sort of new email sent to customers with an update of where their account currently stands (ie, how much is left, what payments have been refunded, what account it was sent to ect ect)

I know that would be some work but I'm sure that coupled with the r cent podcasts would probably set a lot to customers minds at ease. Hopefully they can address those type of concerns soon. Also it's curious that Barry was in the USA and didn't go visit Phil when this hit the fan. If ever there was a time to go make a personal visit that might've been it...

#2137 5 years ago

If Barry wasn't paying attention to requests by universal what makes you think he'd pay attention to a letter from a lawyer in the usa?

#2145 5 years ago

I think a few weeks will make the difference here for most folks. Hopefully any work needed to settle items between Barry and Phill will get resolved.

Personally I'd think it would make more sense to have payments more in line with the stages of manufacturing.

First deposit based on a prototype with final approval. Second deposit based on opening stages of manufacturing. Third stage of deposit when initial run of pinball madhine are completed and pass inspection and final payment when these are ready for shipping.

This sort of payment system would allow funds to be available as the stages are met. It helps a company grow and it keeps them hungry to compete each stage. It's also based on common construction loans.

#2160 5 years ago
Quoted from dgpinball:

Wow, I thought we saw the zenith of polarization on WOZ, but I think this TBL debacle may even exceed that.
I understand that passions are running high on this, and if I had $4K plus fluttering out in No Mans Land Id be pretty intense about it too, but even the most ardent supporter of the project must realize that this is a very poor way for any company to be starting out, especially one planning to build something as complex as a pinball machine. Anyone who watched what JJP has gone thru starting a pinball company from scratch, should realize just how mammoth an undertaking this is if you want to do it on a large, professional scale. If they can`t even manage their pre-order accounts, it only gets more complex and intensive from here.
I sincerely hope that no one loses money in this, that would be a disaster for the pinball community and pretty much crush the development of games by so called boutique manufacturers.

I think the people that are saying "grow a pair and stay in" or something similar may not understand the sheer complexities of production. Designing a pinball and liscensing are big but no where near the level of production. I have friends that own toy companies and work at toy companies video game company's as well as other manufacturing companies and the amount of work to bring something through production is not a simple feat. That being said, I belive DP can do it, but they will need to be far more organized than what has been shown so far.

I think people have seen a glimpse behind the curtain and are starting to see cracks, it's understandable for them to question where their money is at this point. DP's best solution is a frank discussion with their buyers. They shoudk approach the buyers as they would a bank if they were asking for a loan. Set out a business plan schedule regular updates and keep people in the loop. I would bet that a mojority of not all of their customers would come back and reinvest in this machine once they see DP has a solid game plan and that they can deliver.

That's all anyone wants to see. I doubt anyone here wants to see them fail. We just want to know this won't become a train wreck either.

#2169 5 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

Not organised for the production phase seems unlikely to me, I was receiving parts last August/september to paint for the proto's, and they didnt arrive in a way I was expecting, at all! everything goes through the factory systematically, nothing garage-style, labeled, bagged, date produced, date in, who booked it in etc.etc. I mean..that's keeping track of things if I ever saw it. And so much easier later to identity problem parts should that arise. And that's just during prototyping phase..
Anyway, im still very confident its going to get worked Out and Q2 deadline Will be met.

That's great news (and really that is the sort of thing they should concentrate on right now while they get the financials and phil sorted). Maybe a quick video tour of the manufacturing facility and what people can expect, that might go a long way to calming people's fears.

#2178 5 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

Considering how late they are on the BOP kit, I would think anytime in 2015 would be optimistic. They ship and finish that, then I would have more faith, but when you can't finish a much easier product on schedule, how can you expect to produce games on large scale on schedule? Seems highly unlikely.

This was actually one of my first thoughts when I heard they were doing this game. To me I'd be watching how that small frat run goes for indications of how they can handle production of a pinball machine. I'm fact I'm really interested in ordering a BoP kit and seeing how they handle that and then seeing about TBL

#2218 5 years ago

I think this goes a long way to calming people's fears. Nothing instills confidence white like pictures of customers with their newest additional parts and upgrades to their machines.

I may have to get myself on the other list for a 2.0 upgrade

#2321 5 years ago

Any new updates from Phil? Anyone heard from him, how his treatment went

#2450 5 years ago

Thanks for posting up the pics. Maybe they should have called the special edition the nihilist edition lol... But seriously, it looks like their getting their ducks lined up now. Might've been good to have an estimated date for when DP USA might get its accounts straightened out.

I'm hoping those that are in feel more comfortable with the new details

1 week later
#2716 5 years ago

I think th bst week or two could be the real turning point. Once they get this sorted and a new announcement coupled with some photos of happy BOP 2.0 owners and some refunds underway, people will be back on board full steam ahead. let's all hope those things happen

#2720 5 years ago

Oh yeah I've been following the testing congrats guys.

#2763 5 years ago

A lot of words to call the guys comments wrong. Then agin DP has always said you can get a full refund, it swould make sense that people who want that to be honored and are not hearing anything back but crickets will be vocal. For the amount they have a lot invested right now without an answer, I'd say let me vent. The game looks like it will get made, and if their being vocal keeps the pressure on the folks at DP to work quickly to a solution then it works out for everyone.

#2768 5 years ago

I meant to say let them vent (stupid iPhone auto correct)

#2847 5 years ago

You guys don't make a bit of sense, right now there are people who are waiting for their refunds, you can dress this up however you want but until those people concerns are addressed, namely where is their money and what is the financial situation at this point, the rest is just conjecture. throwing a sticker on a machine hasn't changed anything. Let's try and remember that some people have been waiting over a month with their money stuck in limbo without a proper response.

Those people are our community, we should be supporting them. Persoanlly I dig the game, I'd like to see it made and I'd love to play it but first id like to see these people taken care of.

#2858 5 years ago

People seem to have glossed over many of Phil's other points and screen grabs about the money being deposited elsewhere. Most people that jumped did so becuase of the shakey financial situation that was made visible, and rightly so. While Phil did create this issue in part, let's not forget that he was left holding an account long after he left. And as seen above at least a few people requested refunds before this mess and have still not recieved theirs.

#2902 5 years ago

Pinball, one of the only hobby's where you learn the ins and outs of investors, setting up a corporation, manufacturing and electrical work as well as liscensing rights. All of this for less than the cost of a four year college

1 week later
#3066 4 years ago

I think it's poor form to get upset at anyone that has requested a refund 5 - 7 weeks ago and hasn't been given a legitimate response with at least a timeframe for when their deposit will be fully refunded. Heck, even a small token payment as an initial payment with a promissory note that the remaining funds will be paid within a certain time would go a long long way to calming people down.. If anything these posts where someone has personally spoken with Barry and "new news" will be coming soon" are getting old and tired. That was mentioned 3 - 4 weeks back.

I feel for our pinball brethren who have funds tied up in this game and want them back. If they want to vent off, I'm more than happy to listen and if I run into one of them I'm buying them a drink...

#3071 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

You did. And still you dont no shit about dp financial status.

That's sort of the point. and frankly there is no excuse for a lack of official communication, legal or otherwise. First off, if there was a legal issue, they could state that honestly and layout how they plan to deal with it. while it would initially cause some unrest it would be information, and once absorbed people would communicate with them through pm and get their own issues with refunds sorted.

If this isn't q legal concern there still isn't a reason to make a statement of where they are at in the process and what the plan is. Even if they are having major issues with going through the payments and getting it sorted, they can set a estimated date for when they plan to have payments ready or information to the extant and set that as a goal.

Again, lack of communication after this amount of time is inexcusable when dealing with refunds and only hurts their cause at this point

#3087 4 years ago

seriously plungemaster, really? we can be better than this

#3104 4 years ago

Well, at least the folks that preordered their BOP 2.0 Kits have started getting them in. This is encouraging, and hopefully the folks here that want their deposits back will hear something soon as well

1 week later
#3140 4 years ago

just curious if DP has taken any opportunity to show off one of these sample pinball machines at one of the Lebowskifest's. It would seem like a slam dunk to me...

#3150 4 years ago

If there's news good enough for Friday release why not send it to customers already? Are they hoping to make it an even amount of time to the exact date when this ship started sinking? People that are owed money deserve better. There's no excuse for proper communication, Barry's desire for no news until he has 100 percent good news is stupid. He's basically placing his desire over his customers which is a shitty business move. If this company has th balls to advertise refunds are available they should man up and explain why they are not at this time, and they should've done so weeks ago. you know what new shit is coming to light? DP doesn't care for their customers, they care about themselves. best of luck to the everyone but this would give me more than a second thought to doing business with this company until they have a product out and in stock (and even then I'd question if they really had it in stock or were just building it).

#3179 4 years ago

More importantly, Denmark is 9 hours ahead (6 hours if on the east coast) if new shit is coming to light we should hear about it within the next 4 - 5 hours.

#3190 4 years ago

It's currently 4:16 pm in Denmark

#3255 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

You're kidding right?

My post was in response to another post about the time difference:

Quoted from sd_tom:

I would guess 10pm their time (so 1pm PST? 4pm EST) is prob your cut off time if its not coming today.

My previous comment had mentioned the time difference and even mentioned it would probably be 4 - 5 hours...

At any rate playfield is looking good. And I agree aurich, from a design point seeing illustrated work and then those photoshopped faces it is different but my guess is people will be fine with it once this finally gets to production

#3333 4 years ago

They only have one last hurdle to clear at this point (refunds) and they should be back on their path. The addition of the new people to the company is a great sign that they will clear that last hurdle, after all why bring in new people some of whom are on here and answering questions is the boat is about to sink.

I feel for the customers waiting for their cash, but it feels like they will be getting their refunds soon.

you know, thinking on it, it seems like this could be a great opportunity for DP to turn things around. They could fully refund those people who've asked for their refunds and then offer those people a $500 - $800 credit towards the game if those people wanted to recommit to the purchase. But only after they give the refund back. This way they show their commitment to returning the money but they also give those people something back for their patience.

Just an idea (and of course it's easy to be the guy with the idea if your not the one needing the money for production)

#3335 4 years ago

Yeah it's great to see how well pinball has thrived around the world. It's funny because I asked my buddies in Japan about it and they said its not as popular there, though they mentioned a guy that has a serious collection that's pretty decent (but several hours away). It's kind weird because I would think that pinball would be huge there with Japan's fascination with toys and mechanics.

Is there any other hot spots for pinball activity in other countries?

#3339 4 years ago

And therein lies the trouble at times with posting updates. But one thing I do like is that Rick continues to post. if I were a manufacturer and posting here I would politely say something like

"we would like to use this forum to keep our customers informed and keep a personal line of communication with the community. However, this is the Internet and often a message can be lost in the conversation, so, while we welcome input through the process, if we folks are a disruption in the process we will ignore their posts and continue with the conversation and updates. If you feel we are ignoring your posts and that you have real concerns as a customer, please email or call us directly and as always we will be happy to help you. In this way we can keep the various conversations as close to on topic as we can without getting into the personal conflicts that are so common with public forums. We thank you for your patience and understanding with our methods."

make that your first post for any thread on a particular topic and then simply remind people of that when you get the typical troll like comments.

#3341 4 years ago

Yeah, and that's the beauty of the Internet people can agree on many points but completely see the same thing from different perspectives (which is also I'm sure why we see so much different conflict on forums at times). For the most part, I see the same types of conversations and issues on many many forums. Some forums are almost immune to it though (those generally tend to not have sales threads or interact with manufacturers) and even then you still see an occasional conflict between individuals.

from my prospective, anything that encourages a manufacturer / company to keep a dialog open with the community would be great, though they must understand that they will need to take the good with the bad and that when they interact online they will have to be above the petty conflicts that come up (which can be very hard not to step into)

#3343 4 years ago

Yeah but for the most part your projects are fairly strait forward and your a one man operation. Companies that have a lot of stuff going don't always have a clear concise way to address an issue becuase they haven't decided which course to take (usually due to too many cooks in the kitchen). Spooky seems to have it well taken care of. I must admit though I don't read through his stuff too much merely because it just doesn't appeal to me much (perhaps the next title will though).

But those companies that do a great job should be an inspiration to the companies that seem to struggle. And I agree, the situation with the photos could've been handled much better, even if rick didn't like what you did he could have simply thanked you for sharing them here and moved on. My only guess is that he wants to keep information special for PPS forum and direct some traffic there. It makes sense to have ones own forum to control the message and keep a flo of information in your control, though pinside has been around for ages and it's not going to change so at some point companies and people need to cater to that audience. Part of that is manning up and communicating when there's an issue and then learning not to make an issue when you have good news

#3347 4 years ago

From a business standpoint it makes sense to try and direct traffic and your message to your own site, but if you do so you really need to be able to communicate effectively. A smarter oprion would've been to post up a few photos and simply say, for more photos and notes on my trip please refer to our forum thread. but again it's really all about how you relay your message, you could be ghandi and if your preaching your wisdom with an attitude it'll go nowhere

#3354 4 years ago

Rasorbak thanks for that info and links, I'm gonna shared with my buddies. I may end up going out for a toy convention out there and to hang out with some fi new there so it would be fun to take them to a few places and show them games I love (they went to a few arcades in SF when they came out before).

And aurich, sorry to hear your continued issues with mr. Personality lol...

Re: TBL, I do like that they made the change to mark it zero, the little details are nice and really tie the theme together

#3357 4 years ago

Y ah, I tuink Asia could be a really great opportunity for growth. They have several popular themes that would translate well to pinball I think

1 week later
#3417 4 years ago

Glad to see this getting sorted out. Now people can focus on the important stuff, like code

#3430 4 years ago

I have no horse in this race but it's not like those people that did request refunds got them yet. 10 weeks is a long enough space of time that it would seem like a nice gesture to allow them back (though maybe give them a 10 day grace period)

At any rate, it's not for us to decide. I'm just happy to see them progressing towards production. Hopefully they will have another title in design phase as well

#3449 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

They did get their refunds...

After 9 to 10'weeks. but it's good to hear that they got their refunds now (so far we've heard two people say they got refunds, not sure if everyone's refunds have gone through yet)

The smart move would be an attempt to resell those customers, why leave any potential sales out of the mix (though chances are most people that passed will be back in once the first machines start to arrive at customers homes)

But hopefully this puts the refund discussion to bed and moves it to talk of prodution, estimated delivery dates, coding ect ect

#3528 4 years ago

The more I read about this saga the more I feel like I'll just wait a few years and see what people think of this company at that time. There's too many cool pinball machines out there and there will always be a chance to own a machine second hand.

On the positive side, it sounds like they'll get the game out and people will be taken care of. I hope Curtis gets straightened out as well.

#3563 4 years ago

It's always in the business owners rights to refuse service, then again it's equally in the right of potential customers to interprit those actions as a bit if grandiose self entitlement and decide to just wait till the machines hit the aftermarket.

But frankly, it's not like we know what happened (completely) or what the Dutch guys are thinking so it's a hard one to call. What is interesting is that everyone that defends DP justifies their decision to tell customers to take a hike by saying "well you did post some comments on pinside" wtf?

So in this scenario DP comes to a 3rd party site, reads through nearly a hundred pages, see's customers are pissed but make no effort to reach those customers and calm them down but then keep note of who they are and when those people decide they feel like the company is safe enough they'd like to continue business with them (which isn't that the ultimate form of compliment, like, hey you screwed up but your doing ok now, I trust you again) their response is to say "nope take a hike" and somehow people are ok with that? That's the scenario people are ok with? Again we don't know what happened here at all beyond a few people's side of the story but I'm not exactly sure why anyone would try and justify those actions. At the most if your pro DP you should just say, "sorry to hear that. You should work that out with Barry. If you can't then at least you got your money back.

#3565 4 years ago

Thanks, that's the sort of thing I like to hear. (It's been rare here) it makes for a more informed decision on judging a company for future dealings

#3567 4 years ago

True, that's why I mentioned that we were only sharing one side of the story. That's why it's nice to see some customers post here about their experiance (positive) and see that they had good communication with Barry. Keeping tabs on this project poor communication has been a running theme at times. So hearing that it may be either blown out of proportion or simply just that less positive responses get posted is nice to see. Otherwise it's hard to know much about the comoany (unless you've met them and or done business with them yet)

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