Nothing here.
I did find it strange when I made my pre-January payment that the confirmation said I had sent it to phil@dp - I wonder if the email address where payment is being sent is the issue....
Rod
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Quoted from vid1900:I would just hold tight to your funds for now.
Once you hear an official explanation, THEN proceed with caution.
Smart.
Still haven't got a refund I was in early, is the consensus those refunded are latecomers near expo?
Rod
Quoted from Aurich:DP, you gotta step up your communication game guys. Talk to people!
People may have given Phil a hard time on the t's but he was vocal being he was pr and licensing.
I'm guessing the disgruntled nature of the email from Phil re his leaving has something to do w this and has caught dp off-guard again...
edit: metallic summed up what I was trying to say while I was composing.
Rod
Quoted from burningman:Dude...Phil....what are you hoping to achieve by doing this?
This really appears like a cry for attention....be cool man
W/ the amount of money I've got out there I think we should let him say whatever he wants no?
Unless U have an agenda of course.
Rod
Phil, the million dollar question - refunds are required for everyone to transfer the funds to the new account?
Rod
Phil please, if I'm understanding this right, To move the funds from u to dp it needs to be done by first issuing refunds...?
Please please answer.
Rod
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:No, Rod, if Barry (or anyone) takes over DP USA, all assets, including the paypal account, would transfer to that person.
That's why I'm refunding all the money. Preorder money is NOT revenue. It's not earned. It's a debt. Only when the machine is shipped does it become revenue.
I just want to reduce the amount of liability this company has.
Phil, what a rollercoaster, thank you.
I think that's the only thing any of us needed to know tonight, that we are secure w/ your involvement.
Feel better Phil, physically and mentally, you've got to have some of the biggest balls on someone I will ever know in my life.
Rod
Holy shit, I gotta get off here and enjoy the rest of the evening w the family.
But upon a quick reflection of what just happened here I can't help but think when my money is back in my account and after a few months of fallout, Phil is going to deserve some serious applause, respect, and thanks from all of us.
When I first spoke w him - which had to be over an hr long conversation, I had the feeling I had just met one of the most genuine people.
I trust Phil's word, and because of this will sleep tonight.
W that said I'm done w preorders.
Rod
Good morning.
After thinking about it and catching up w the overnight activity I've come up w/ the following:
1) Does anybody else see the irony if bttf is the 2 nd game? Look at the issues DE had w likenesses, either something has changed in that franchise for licensing or.... There's a pattern here.
2) please correct me if I'm wrong but the Goodman restrictions included speech? No "over the line!" Or anything?
3) I want my refund....
4) But want my cake and eat it too should it be served:
Dp needs a concise and mature response to this however, in the interim, I think a start to damage control should be aimed at us - the ones who believed and supported by pre-ordering. It was supposed to be no-risk from day one, now that perception is long gone.
I propose a) we get our refunds, b) our original place in line disclosed and a promise that place stays, then c) let us know when, if, our machine gets made and we'll decide then.
Take your time in responding to this mess and image-stabilize the company, but immediately satisfy those who supported by pre-ordering!
This ordeal could have a huge impact on the industry - I believe pre-orders do have a place on multiple levels - for those that may need a discount, a manufacturer that needs development funds, or in the case of Stern - to keep their multi-tier product line effective by the perception of exclusivity on LE's.
I hope the "Lebowski effect" term coined from the incredibly positive expo presence doesn't morph into a negative connotation describing these events.
Rod
Oh and speaking of monikers like "TBL effect"....
I think it prudent that Phil's gets a change from Phil "the F-Bomb" to Phil "the Effing Bombardier"....
Rod
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:The decision:
do we transfer Dutch Pinball Inc to Barry / Dutch Pinball BV
or
do I refund all the money, drain PayPal to zero, and shut the business down.
Phil, I'd like to think I speak for most - money back please as soon as possible so we can get off this f'n rollercoaster and then think about getting back on if our heads stop spinning and dp comes to the table w/ some clarity!
Seriously, I can't stress how much I would like my funds back dude.
Rod
As per my post way way back, dp should let us get our money back through Phil and as a sign of GOOD FAITH promise we can have our spots back IF we decide to get back in - right up until manufacture that is!
Someone usually has to take responsibility and it's usually the boss. Dp better have something formal and organized soon in regard to our money and security or possible lack thereof.
They can take on Phil (if the even choose to) publicly after.
Leaving Phil this long w the keys to our money boxes is insane and a serious question mark as to what the hell is going on.
Money back now please, say it again.
Rod
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:That's what I've been doing, man. But I was at Oncology on Nov 24, and I'm back at the doc on Tuesday. I really don't have the strength to deal with this crap,
And again, they are funneling what should be DP USA payments directly to Holland
I have no customer list
no order history
no dutch pinball email address
I have no way of knowing who makes payments
BUT I am still liable.
All because he won't take DP USA -- for 6 weeks now.
uncool.
WTF?
Phil what is it that you need from us then to enact full refunds???
Rod
Quoted from sd_tom:Yeah my question to him too... If this course of action can't be dissuaded; how is he going get the balance to zero if he no longer knows whom it should go to?
I think what Phil is implying is that he needs the list from Dp and he's forcing them to the table.
Phil?
Quoted from frolic:Whatever your opinion of Phil and his actions, at the end of the day he publicly quit this company 6 weeks ago, and has been left with the keys to the store all this time. When the initial refunds hit, there was confusion of why his name was even on them since he was thought to be long gone.
So, this is a failure of management at the top. This should have been dealt with 6 weeks ago, and we wouldn't be here today.
EXACTLY.
Barring a funeral, you've got a partner that can at least assure us our monies are safe and returnable as we were promised.
Someone should man the fuck up now on that level.
Sorry but getting more aggravated.
Rod
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:Yes, there are laws against slander (oral statements) and libel (written statements). However, the affirmative defense to both claims is universal: Truth. Making true statements, no matter how damaging, is not libelous.
Phil good morning from this side of the planet.
Can you please tell is simply how to start getting our refunds - is it all in dp's hands as they have the list and by the sounds of it the funds now as well?
Rod
Quoted from edmorex:Who runs this email address? [email protected]
I just checked the PayPal this morning to see if my two requests for refunds on deposits was updated. They both are still "Waiting For Seller's Response". The Sellers Email for "Dutch Pinball USA, Inc." use to point to a gmail account with Phils name. It now points to [email protected].
Don't know about that, my payment made 12/4 has this on file:
Business Name: Dutch Pinball BV (The recipient of this payment is Non-U.S. - Unverified)
Email: [email protected]
Payment Sent to: [email protected]
Rod
Quoted from limelime20:Phil, you say you want to clear out the DP-USA paypal account,
And all of the money in there is pre-order money, yes?
So, why isn't just ONE phone call needed to paypal, and say,
"Hey, please refund every deposit back to whoever sent it?"
they know exactly who sent it, even if you don't.
and that account should have a zero balance within 24 hrs, if not sooner.
And then you can close it, what am I missing??
What he said!
Rod
Quoted from edmorex:Rod,
"Dutch Pinball BV" according to the email from DP is the account owned by Jaap and Barry. My deposits on Jul 18, 2014 and Sep 22, 2014 went to "Dutch Pinball USA, Inc.".
Well there you have it you're right - the previous payments prior to my December 4th are logged as paid to DP USA, December 4th to DP BV - but still to Phil's email address.
Oh man.
Does this confirm the intentional opening of another account using Phil's email??
-Rod
Yeah, you paid five days later but yours is missing something:
Edit: I'm referring to the fact that yours doesn't have a "payment sent to" at all.
-Rod
Quoted from sd_tom:That field didn't have a "Sent To:" *shrug* was yours from the email? I was doing it off website. Ultimately it doesn't matter.. all these things are forwarded, so it can say anything there and be forwarded to someone else. They shouldn't of ever had it go to one person's name though.. seems obvious now
No I pulled that from the pp website, not an email.
-Rod
Heads-up.
I just got an email from Barry - but asked for clarification.
I've also asked that he address the VIP's / pinside.
The last thing I need to be is a f'n parrot.
-Rod
Quoted from zucot:What did he say?
As a business owner myself, a hobbyist here, as well as a human being that tries to believe in respect as much as possible - please hang tight - let me see what I can do.
-Rod
Quoted from jayhawkai:Did Barry's mom die, too?
Now that made me laugh.
It depends on how u juggle business / personal.
Weird Al for example got the call that both his parents died in a freak home accident, then went on stage and performed flawless. That's what I call big brass business balls.
Others I've seen can't get back up for some time....
-Rod
Quoted from Cenobyte:Then you have a real sick sense of humor....
Yeah, I'm probably going to hell too, but I think jayhawk was referring to the fact that Barry's still available no?
-Rod
Quoted from jayhawkai:Not the intent. Death in the family could certainly explain one partner's silence, but what about Barry's? Some seem to think that nothing is fucked here. IMO, the plane ran out of fuel six weeks ago, and crashed into the mountain Saturday. Public statements addressing the very real and significant concerns buyers have over the BOP delays, TBL licensing, and cash burn (to put it delicately) are long overdue.
I read your post as straight out sarcasm, my bad and apologies to those offended by my lol!
-Rod
I had already wondered what Roger would have thought of this, bravo DP, still no answer to if our refund funds are secure and attainable.
Rod
Quoted from burningman:This will all get straightened out. Barry will be working the e-mail's over the next few weeks. DP wants you to stay in, and anyone on the pre-order list that are making their payments are good.
Burningman it sounds like you've got a crystal ball or magic 8 ball there that you seem pretty confident in.
What does it say for those that "can't take the heat" and want out - we getting our money out like they stated we could,or would you consider this punishment for being a "non-believer"?
Rod
Quoted from burningman:Rod...its pretty simple. From the beginning Phil said...no wait, DP said on its website so we know its true......anyone can ask for a refund prior to their game going into production. You are out.
Now if Barry said to request a refund and resubmit your payment to straighten out your account thats one thing. But if you ask for a refund because you can't take the heat and want to wait until there is more revealed or want to wait until you are "comfortable"....get in the back of the line.
BM I think the "panic" or I'd like to consider "extreme concern" is in relation to the insinuation of a lack of control over the funds and a lack of response to security of those funds - coupled w more dark insinuations of possible mishandling of the funds including kiting / robbing Peter for Paul.
I can't imagine being in Jaap or Barry's shoes and having to deal w this however I do believe when they say that they are sorry for having their customers dragged into this. I won't be surprised if they do offer spots to be held for those freaked out and hopefully receive their refunds. No matter how rogue Phil is and how much damage he's done they still have to take the responsibility of keeping the faith in dp for those that were in early and I think this a smart idea, but hey that's just like my opinion man.
Furthermore Sharpe is as sharp as a f'n razor, my magic 8 ball says he'll be bringing a lot more to this table than Licensing. The advice will be there should they ask for it.
Overall if someone were to offer me my money and say "no pinball for u - back of line", right now I'd take the money and you can call me what you want.
Tell me that they understand the shit we've been through in placing my money w them in the first place and welcome me back in line well that may bring my money back and lessen the bad taste in my mouth.
I hear your passion and support, I have it too but I do remember feeling lucky I didn't put my money in on MMR1 from Wayne Gillard so many years ago, and I really did want him to produce the pin then and succeed, but things happen for a reason....
Rod
Quoted from burningman:DP's pre-order model was designed to give incentives to early orders with the price and goodies. We all know that this is so parts can be purchased, employees can be hired, proto's made.....and without it, the games may have not seen the light of day. Down the road I can see DP not requiring the pre-order model but they really had no choice to get TBL off the ground.
I'm w/ you on that, it's just that NObody saw this coming (although some said Phil leaving was THE flag).
I have a lot of interests and could easily spend my day sitting on multiple forums, w/ that said I have never seen anything like this, ever in any of my hobbies. Never seen an attack and accusations like this and think most haven't either.
I think everyone has the right to feel the way they feel - angry, scared, sad, whatever. I still want them to succeed, pinball in general deserves it and pinball deserves better than this.
I just don't think dp would be making the right move telling those that want refunds to hit the back of the line because of this unprecedented occurrence.
Trust me, if I get my money back I'm not sitting out on any sideline eating popcorn laughing at this, my concern will still be here. I have kids that are growing up around pinball, I want them to have an industry and community should they want to engage a passion.
But we all looked at the risk vs rewards when entering, and that landscape has now changed some may say dramatically.
Rod
Quoted from Mike:We haven't heard from Phil for about 10+ hours. I doubt he's said all he'd like to say on the subject. I can't help but feel for the guy but I don't like how he handled this. Hoping his silence means something positive is happing behind the scenes.
If I'm not mistaken its may be Tues there and I believe he said he's got a treatment. Could be gone for days recouping.
Right or wrong biz wise, time will tell, in the interim he's got a personal fight and on a human level u have to feel for him man.
Rod
Quoted from frolic:We're starting to see a trend with a lot of these companies; they're focused on the product, the design, engineering, artistry, but most of them are lacking real business leadership.
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:I think sitting on your hands waiting for the fire to die down is the worst thing they can do.
IMO then Sharpe is the man, all the interviews I've read and watched would make me believe Roger can do it. Even helm it.
Just look @ the timing of the statement in the Pavlov interview just the other day: <But there’s possible good news for Potter fans.”I am first in line for the licence, and I am waiting for when the timing is right,” he says. “When it is I will see if a particular manufacturer will step up – or I might like to do it myself.”>
In historical context, Roger has been "in the right place at the right time" more than once to help the industry.
For crying out loud he physically made the "flips" that made it legal again, and brought pinball into a more respected context.
He's technically a figurehead / PR man for pinball in general, has a pin design history to boot
on top of licensing (which now is being alluded to have helped dp already on - which we assume is the next title(s)), and to say has oodles of passion is an understatement.
So maybe Roger is in the time and place again - this time to add another title to his career.
Guys this is THE light @ the end of the tunnel but don't get me wrong, Roger will come @ a price.
I said it in another post, and it may sound sappy as shit, but pinball deserves dp to succeed & @ the same time pinball deserves better than this shitstorm.
And if Roger was in the room w/ me I'm sure he would be the first to hi-five for that.
...of course then tell dp where to send the funds for his retainer. 
-Rod
Quoted from beelzeboob:Check...and...mate! Nicely played...
I love the Dutch, if for no other reason than Johannes Vermeer.
Ah yes for me it was Rietveld.
One of my Dutch clients had a large collection of Rietveld furniture, and was eccentric to the point that he usually left his house unlocked in downtown Toronto. That always blew my mind.
-Rod
Quoted from rosh:The hiring of Roger Sharpe did not happen in response to this weeks drama, it occurred when Phil indicated he no longer wanted to be involved.
If the insinuations are true of the next title(s) and that Roger has helped already, I would say Roger may have been in the mix longer than early November.
That may add yet another (unneeded) wrinkle to this - maybe another reason for Phil's behaviour.... they brought in someone else on top of him.
-Rod
Also Phil's statement that they met w/ a distributor @ expo from Toronto isn't panning out from who I've talked to.
There's only one biggie here and I believe their claim that they didn't have anyone there this year, and never talked to dp. I sure didn't see anyone I recognized floating around.
On the other hand I had inquired early on about distributorship and they sure didn't have a meeting w/ me.
-Rod
Quoted from Rensh:I can confirm this. I was at dp booth at expo, in fact they even approached me first as they heard I was dutch and thought I was part of DP which I am not, when a possible distributor from Canada approached Jaap to discuss a distributorship and Jaap clearly said politely NO. For the moment they have no distributor network in mind, direct sales it is. This message was loud and clear. And as every good businessman does, it was a polite NO with the door not fully closed. Can't recall the name but it were two men rather small, one had a beard I can recall. I did see them at VIP party.
Just good business sense from Jaap, always leave doors open
Thanks Rensh, for my own curiosity I will pursue.
In the interim u say they were small and one had a beard.
Do any of these look like the suspects?:
Quoted from inhomearcades:Within minutes barry got back to me and said he would process a refund. I think that says a lot and I may not change my mind to keep my games in place.
Wtf seriously? He ain't getting back to me after he emailed me yesterday morning giving me Phil's personal email and telling me to get refunded from him.
Rod
Quoted from Soltic:Wtf seriously? He ain't getting back to me after he emailed me yesterday morning giving me Phil's personal email and telling me to get refunded from him.
Rod
Got my Dec 4th payment refunded - no email from paypal nor anyone else - went into pp to start copying transaction #'s.
I assume this came from DP BV.
Waiting to hear from Phil.
Ain't enjoying the ride.
-Rod
I've taken one for the team so many times, in fact getting ready to apologize for someone's behaviour tomorrow or even better yet at our XMas party Friday.
But that was the responsibility I realized I'd have when I signed up to steer the ship. A 4th generation family ship w business and family politic all rolled together in some crazy sushi roll.
When I read the letter I thought maybe it's a cultural thing but I can't help reading between the lines that they're passing the buck. EDIT ok I'm sugar coating it's right frickin there.
Man, I wish I could give them some advice and I don't mean it sarcastically.
Damage control score: Roger helping +1, c2c podcast +1, last vip letter -2
(Very tired) Rod
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