(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 9 of 77.
#401 4 years ago

this sounds pretty bad... if I was anyone interested in buying this product, I'd wait on the sidelines till this machine is in assembly and going to be shipped. Right now, it sounds like a crapshoot with the end result of possibly losing your money. Messing with licensing is playing with fire.

27
#402 4 years ago

It's things like this that make me appreciate Spooky Pinball even more.

#403 4 years ago

Wow, this is a helluva thread with a lot of dirt. I really hope DP succeeds, this pinball is too good to not be released. Also if it's really true that BTTF is their next title, I REALLY don't want them to fail.

If what Phil has said on here is true, he's got guts posting it on a public forum. There's gonna be a lot of cleaning up to do.

#404 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

This is the mother of all pinside threads.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Wow, this is a helluva thread with a lot of dirt.

hqdefault.jpg

#405 4 years ago

One thing you can't deny, pinball is entertaining.

#406 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I got in because they are my friends.

hello says kitty.gif
#407 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Looks like you hit the nail on the head dude!

Yea... It's a shame, really wanted this game. Guess now it depends on if the DP team can still work with Universal at all and still make a machine.

#408 4 years ago
Quoted from stangbat:

One thing you can't deny, pinball is entertaining.

Pardon me, but perhaps you forgot the word "Dutch" in your sentence?

#409 4 years ago

I tried to tell everyone ages ago about "pre-orders" for items like this, so unless you have a small deposit in it....licensing is no joke...how was this not licensed? Anyone that thinks it is ok for copyright infringement (if this is indeed the problem) really needs to get their priorities straight. This was at a huge pinball show. Rich people have pinballs. Do people think this would not get back to Universal???

#410 4 years ago

So where is the commentary from DP?

#411 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

So where is the commentary from DP?

Probably lots of commentary from them at Modern Pinball tonight.

#412 4 years ago
Quoted from DreamTR:

Do people think this would not get back to Universal???

They've had a letter on their website for the last year:
http://www.thebiglebowskipinball.com/pdf/DP-UPL-Press-Release.pdf

However it doesn't really say they "have it", it states that they "will partner". Since Phil's name is on that letter, and Phil is not part of the company (and he's been revealing the truth all over this thread), it begs the question whether the license is truly secured.

#413 4 years ago

For those arriving late, try this link for the reader's digest version:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-usa-refund-still-want-the-game?tu=phil-dp-usa

#414 4 years ago

I guess if Phil was concerned about pushing the license into "illegal" territory why did he go along with it so longm. Its a little late now after his name is on everything and he is the one at expo showing everything and his names on all the emails. And with the tirade, and posting universal contact info, it is now more likely than less likely there now will be a issue vs theoretical. So.. Yeah .. Just unprofessional.. And an attack.

#415 4 years ago

Chatted with my friend that is at the Modern pinball party right now.
He states that that they told him
#1 will we get our shirts
#2 there is 2 sides to every story, wait for the other side
#3 game is on schedule and will be shipping in April of 2015

#416 4 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Or how hard the Pinball Arcade has been working to get The Addams Family Pinball virtualized?

and last i heard, they will still not be able to use the likeness of the actor who portrayed Pugsly.

#417 4 years ago
Quoted from DreamTR:

I tried to tell everyone ages ago about "pre-orders" for items like this, so unless you have a small deposit in it....licensing is no joke...how was this not licensed? Anyone that thinks it is ok for copyright infringement (if this is indeed the problem) really needs to get their priorities straight. This was at a huge pinball show. Rich people have pinballs. Do people think this would not get back to Universal???

From all the comments here, it doesn't sound like The Big Lebowski is "not licensed" exactly. It sounds like DP got the license, but then at least from Phil's perspective took actions (like showing and advertising unapproved designs) that seriously imperiled the license. I'm less clear from the posts here if that issue is ongoing (i.e. if the design DP is currently showing publicly has been OK'd by Universal).

I agree that if you're going to make a licensed game, your top priority has to be keeping the licensor happy enough that they don't pull the license. If that happens, you're totally hosed. I doubt retheming this game as "The Big Brunswick" would work out well for anyone.

#418 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I guess if Phil was concerned about pushing the license into "illegal" territory why did he go along with it so longm. Its a little late now after his name is on everything and he is the one at expo showing everything and his names on all the emails. And with the tirade, and posting universal contact info, it is now more likely than less likely there now will be a issue vs theoretical. So.. Yeah .. Just unprofessional.. And an attack.

This is where im scratching my head. I think back to jareds video on the dp seminar and Phil was spouting how they have the license to all the songs and content seems like a disgruntled employee to me, correct me if I'm wrong.

#419 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

and last i heard, they will still not be able to use the likeness of the actor who portrayed Pugsly.

The agent representing the bear rug is making a big fuss, too.

#420 4 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

#3 game is on schedule and will be shipping in April of 2015

Oh boy.

The biggest issue for DP, besides relieving Phil of DP USA immediately, is to demonstrate that all the licenses are 100% cleared and the game as we've seen it is good to go.

With this powder keg going off, it's going to shine new light on some of the questionable licenses for other games out there (not naming names but we all know the other title). We're seeing first hand that you can trot a game out to expo without proper clearances. I think documents and paperwork are going to have to be posted (redacted versions, but it will have to be done).

#421 4 years ago

I was in licensing for a living. ALL of that stuff has to be fully approved (and we had crazy stuff like Nintendo and Disney licenses for products) because everyone's "brand" is theirs and they can all be picky. Keep in mind licensing takes a LONG time. Stuff has to be hard copy approved via email and can take "forever", you have to have a proctor to deal with that at times. I was a Product Manager once a few years back before I moved...Phil is right, a lot of this stuff should not fly.....

#422 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I asked them to please take over, you'll have full access to paypal, customer lists, and I'll keep my mouth shut.
I won't even tell Gary or Jack my idea of using a machine as a jukebox. Plugging in a USB with music, and using the flippers to forward and reverse, having the machine light up to the beat.

We already have this wireless juke box mod for any CPU based pinball machine Pinnovators Pin Tooth mod

Lol
Lorenzo
Pinnovators.com

-2
#423 4 years ago
Quoted from kapper:

DP VIP Email
Dear VIPs,
Although we would rather be focussing fully on our extremely fun VIP party in NYC - we want to take a moment and address some of the confusion that may have been caused by the refunds on some of your orders.
Although Phil announced to leave the company, he officially still is one of the three share holders of Dutch Pinball USA Inc. and in charge of the Dutch Pinball USA Inc. PayPal and bank account. The company building the game is Dutch Pinball BV and owned by Jaap and Barry.
We did everything in our power to settle issues in a normal way with Phil, but unfortunately he decided to take matters in his own hands and is doing whatever he's doing for reasons we don't know. We really regret your involvement in this situation and we hope we can settle this as soon as possible so we can focus on fun things again.
Our goal is to make awesome games. This will not be changed or damaged by an individual who just wants to discredit our success and/or our project(s).
Phil started some PayPal USA Inc. refunds without us knowing. Please don't worry, your order is still there and you will not lose your place in line.
As soon as your money is refunded, please go to your status page and 'retry' the payment(s). If you pay again like this, the payments will be processed to a new PayPal account and you're all done and your order is secured. If for some reason you can't retry, or if it doesn't work, please let us know. We might need a couple of days to fix this since it's weekend and some of us are in New York.
If your money is not (yet) refunded, you can always dispute this on your PayPal account to force a refund
Nothing else will change and all terms and conditions will remain the same for delivering your game and future games.
We are Dutch Pinball and are still on track to create this and many more awesome games!
Thanks for being a VIP and we hope to meet you again soon.
If you have any further questions, or concerns, please contact us at sales@dutchpinball.com. It might take some time to process all emails.
Team Dutch Pinball
Barry
Freek
Guus
Jaap
Jean-paul
Jules
Koen
Roel
Scott

If u get a refund .... Run!!!!!

#424 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

We already have this wireless juke box mod for any CPU based pinball machine Pinnovators Pin Tooth mod
Lol
Lorenzo
Pinnovators.com

Really? Does it do the sound activated lights? Sounds cool.

#425 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

With this powder keg going off, it's going to shine new light on some of the questionable licenses for other games out there (not naming names but we all know the other title). We're seeing first hand that you can trot a game out to expo without proper clearances. I think documents and paperwork are going to have to be posted (redacted versions, but it will have to be done).

Let these pages serve as a warning to all pinball makers who think they can get away with using unlicensed assets and no one will notice.

#426 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

This is where im scratching my head. I think back to jareds video on the dp seminar and Phil was spouting how they have the license to all the songs and content seems like a disgruntled employee to me, correct me if I'm wrong.

^This^ I'm confused!

#427 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Here is what I would do.
Let's negotiate a promissory note with DP for all the $$$ you have invested into the project, payable out over a reasonable amount of time. You get paid back if they succeed.
Some of it might be sunk cost but hey, anything is better than nothing.
The best outcome for you and everybody is that DP is successful.

Sheesh, ice. A nice lawyer? You're blowing my mind, man!
/s

Seriously, you're a class act.

#428 4 years ago

Someone explain after reading these pages why bother preordering. The games not limited. If u got a refund hold it back when a game ships pay for it. Why risk it?

#429 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisVW:

Thanks Frolic, but I will name names. Let these thread pages serve as a warning, JPOP GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER.

Thank goodness at least JPOP is going with unlicensed themes or I'm afraid us owners would be in a world of shit!

12
#430 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Thank goodness at least JPOP is going with unlicensed themes or I'm afraid us owners would be in a world of shit!

Are there any actual Jpop owners? Sounds like they all just own a receipt of emptiness.

Post edited by centerflank: spelling

#431 4 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

Rick at pps must be happy tonight, The MMR thread has been dead with everyone over hear worried about this preorder instead.

Rick, Jack and the others who take pre orders are not remotely happy about this situation. They can live with message board heat but undoubtedly do not like seeing overall confidence shaken in the pinball community at large.

This potentially hurts all manufacturers and all consumers.

#432 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Someone explain after reading these pages why bother preordering. The games not limited. If u got a refund hold it back when a game ships pay for it. Why risk it?

Where is the risk? You can always get a refund up until the game ships. Preorders saved $500 and got a rug and chrome upgrade in the process.

16
#433 4 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Are there any actually Jpop owners? Sounds like they all just own a receipt of emptiness.

Hell yea Flank! I am the proud owner of a couple of vapor pins, the upside is that they don't take up much room in my lineup.

#434 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Thank goodness at least JPOP is going with unlicensed themes or I'm afraid us owners would be in a world of shit!

What about Robby the Robot and the Mars Attack aliens?

#435 4 years ago

Pay pal question, I thought we had 180 days pay pal protection on purchases but I heard many here say that they were told by pay pal that after 45 days you can't dispute a charge.

#436 4 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Where is the risk? You can always get a refund up until the game ships.

The risk in any pre-order is that they got belly up before shipping and there is no money left for a refund. Not a perfect example, but I ordered $100+ in battery holders from Radio Shack last week and then later that day news was posted that they delisted their stock (temporarily) and I was worried that they might declare bankruptcy the next day and I might never receive them (I did).

#437 4 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

What about Robby the Robot and the Mars Attack aliens?

OT: Im not sure about the alien (if it will even be used it is 1 of many possibilities) JPOP claims the robot is public domain "trailers before 1964 are not protected"

Edit: Again according to John there are many versions of artwork that may or may not be used (including the stylized Sci-fi robot) but nothing will be used if there are any copyright conflicts ect.

#439 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Im not sure about the alien (if it will even be used it is 1 of many possibilities) JPOP claims the robot is public domain "trailers before 1964 are not protected"

Saw something related to WOZ memorabilia lately regarding this. Guy selling WOZ mechandise pulled his art images directly from either movie poster or trailer or something else that was now public domain, but was still being sued by MGM and IIRC he lost.

#440 4 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Where is the risk? You can always get a refund up until the game ships.

This is only true if they hold the deposits until shipment. But why take deposits at all in that case? They're spending at least part of the deposit cash to bootstrap the company. So if they fail to get to shipment, there's potentially no money left to refund. So it's all risk.

#441 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Really? Does it do the sound activated lights? Sounds cool.

Plugs in bypasses the audio from the pc. Bluetooth connection plays music from ur phone or iPod through the game... We sold a couple dozen and stopped making them for a while.. Will get back to them later this spring.

#442 4 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Where is the risk? You can always get a refund up until the game ships. Preorders saved $500 and got a rug and chrome upgrade in the process.

Check out what happened in Austrilia with Bumper in 2013. Any time you have neither your money or your item you are exposed. The ability to get a refund is limited by the solvency of the entity that is holding your money...an entity that may have big over head like salaries...

#443 4 years ago

The PayPal deal at 180 days is only on purchases after November 18, so only 45 days on most who have made payments pre 11/18

#444 4 years ago
Quoted from kbliznick:

The risk in any pre-order is that they got belly up before shipping and there is no money left for a refund. Not a perfect example, but I ordered $100+ in battery holders from Radio Shack last week and then later that day news was posted that they delisted their stock (temporarily) and I was worried that they might declare bankruptcy the next day and I might never receive them (I did).

Just because Radio Shack files for bankruptcy, doesn't mean they'll close all 4,000 stores before you get your battery holders.
Check the Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA) and the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule.

#445 4 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Iceman,
I think its great that Barry got ahold of you. But, I wish he would post here directly. I want to stay in on this, but there are a lot of unanswered questions.
I have $6500 tied up with DP right now (I take full responsibility for that) between BoP and TBL. I didn't receive a refund today from Phil. And I cannot dispute with Paypal because its past the grace period.
So what now??? How do I get my refund?? Who do I contact? Because (as Barry's letter stated), a dispute with Paypal is not possible.
I'm just looking for answers. $6500 isn't pocket change to throw away or at least know where things stand.
I'm so bummed. Was so excited to see what was going to come out of New York this weekend... Now this. F*CK!!!

The advantage for us in this position is that our money is with DP USA. If things go tits up, we have legal recourse beyond PayPal. Get a refund and reapply to DP BV and now you're in international waters and getting your money back will be much more difficult.

I was a day one order and wasn't refunded. I'm still in, because I love TBL more than anything, and mostly because I don't think we have the entire story just yet.

#446 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Plugs in bypasses the audio from the pc. Bluetooth connection plays music from ur phone or iPod through the game... We sold a couple dozen and stopped making them for a while.. Will get back to them later this spring.

Sounds cool, what price and would it work on acdc?

#447 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Check out what happened in Austrilia with Bumper in 2013. Any time you have neither your money or your item you are exposed. The ability to get a refund is limited by the solvency of the entity that is holding your money...an entity that may have big over head like salaries...

Agreed. This is the statement in this thread that has me the most worried:

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

that Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.
keep in mind, jaap and i had NOTHING to do with bride. this was a koen / barry project, but we knew, if this thing didn't ship, nobody would by TBL.

If this is even remotely true, it's very troubling.

#448 4 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Just because Radio Shack files for bankruptcy, doesn't mean they'll close all 4,000 stores before you get your battery holders.
Check the Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA) and the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule.

Neither are practically applicable to smaller entities like boutique pinball manufacturers...especially ones owned and managed by foriegnors.

#449 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Im not sure about the alien (if it will even be used it is 1 of many possibilities) JPOP claims the robot is public domain "trailers before 1964 are not protected"

Holy shit, he did not actually say that. Please tell me that's not a direct quote.

First of all, Robbie the Robot isn't from a "trailer". He's originally from the full length film Forbidden Planet, which was released in 1956. There is no "if it was in the trailer it's public domain" rule.

(The robot was reused several times on camera, some people here probably think of Twilight Zone first even I bet.)

So that's the trailer part.

The second part is films do not enter the public domain right now unless they were made before 1923. 1956 > 1923

So that part is wrong too.

I just checked the license on my Mondo Forbidden Planet print. Rights belong to Turner Entertainment Co., so they're the ones who would handle any licensing.

It's not like I needed another reason to doubt that Jpop has any clue WTF he's actually doing, but that's sure a huge one. Does that mean those cabinets he brought to Expo weren't a colossal waste of time exercise in concept art, but actually a stunningly miscalculated final design?

#450 4 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Plugs in bypasses the audio from the pc. Bluetooth connection plays music from ur phone or iPod through the game... We sold a couple dozen and stopped making them for a while.. Will get back to them later this spring.

Thing works like a charm, I've had one since way back!

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