(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Xerico
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#351 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Things will looks a whole lot better in the light of day.
Not really a big deal.

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#352 5 years ago

As much as I want to maintain my preorder, I cannot. If TBL gets made and it looks great, then I'll buy. But too much uncertainty on this one has spooked me. Also, I preordered after seeing the brilliant prototypes.

And they are brilliant.

But I thought that the licensing was largely worked out at that point. Sadly, I have my doubts. So who knows how much of the music, imagery, and quotes are going to be in the final product? It might be downright unrecognizable by the time licensing issues are put to bed, if they ever are.

I really wish everyone involved in this drama success. I want DP to succeed and get the licensing bulletproof secure. I want Phil to be relieved of all pressure in the matter and to get healthy again. I want my fellow pinsiders to either get fully refunded or get a pin consistent with what they thought they were preordering.

But the heat is too hot for me and I'm getting out of the kitchen. I'd RATHER stay and have the pin that we've all seen at expo, but I don't know if that's going to happen. Please, please, please, prove me wrong, DP!

#353 5 years ago

This entire thread summarized in 8 seconds.

-16
#354 5 years ago

If, like you say, did not want to take the risc, with your name and account etc, into the company, you should never have stepped in!

Now you are acting like a chicken that wants out when the heat rises.

You chose wrongly, and all you try to do is make it as ugly as possible, for you to get out.

Talking about integrety.... Lmao!

DP is better off with you, bey bey!

#355 5 years ago

Right on dude

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#356 5 years ago

Wow. What a clusterfuck.

I inmediately repaid in full. Not sure what to do at this point.

Sounds like we need another statement from DP about the overall state of the game and approvals.

When is the VIP party? If they don't address this then I'm out.

#357 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

As for your refund. Phil was in charge of the Paypal and I asked him multiple times to do the refund to you. He just didn't responded.

Good morning.

Sorry, I don't know your real name, but I can tell you this. On Wednesday Dec 10 at 17:25, Barry emailed me 3 names for refund. I did a name search, but couldn't find them, so I replied to him at 18:40. By the time he wrote back, I was already at home having dinner with the family.

I refunded two of the three either the next day or the day after, and one of the three got flagged for additional questions from PayPal.

Barry has NEVER asked me multiple times do to a refund with no response.

Thank you for posting this publicly. It's good that I am given the opportunity to address these types of issues. If you message me privately, I can look at your refund issue.

barry.jpg
#358 5 years ago

Another example that making pinball machines is hard. Financing, licensing, design, and manufacturing each are huge hurdles. Obviously you have to pull on your big boy pants to make it over all of them.

Kudos to Stern and JJP for getting games made (and Spooky to a smaller extent).
Hopefully, Skit-B, JPop, PPS (likely soonish) and DP can get their shit together and clear all the hurdles. I would hate to see friends of mine get burned if one of these entities falls on their face.

#359 5 years ago

Is anyone resending funds?

#360 5 years ago

I did before I read all of this. Not sure how I feel about that right now.

25
#361 5 years ago

I've said it before, and it will never change. Barry is one of the best designers I've ever met, and given the right circumstances, he can make amazing games.

Yes, this game can still get made, and if it does, I'm sure it will be very good. I truly hope they succeed, but I just do not feel comfortable being a part of it.

I have been trying like hell to get out of this, and all my requests were ignored, or I was given one BS line after another -- and let's just say that it felt very familiar.

So that's why I've done this. I hate that I am left with so little recourse, but I have to put the well being of my own family above all else, and given the choice, I would do the same thing again.

Barry, I've practically begged you to find someone to take DP USA. I've iMessaged you, I emailed you, I've called you. I've even emailed you all the paperwork pre-filled out. I'll even help you put the company back together. You know that.

Take me off this company so we can all move on. Please.

#362 5 years ago

I don't have a dog in this race but the biggest mistake I am seeing over & over again with ALL the pinball makers is lack of communication. I am not saying they should post daily updates or anything but if they have major delays or other issues and they have your money why not tell buyers what is going on?

Best example I can think of with this was Jersey Jack with missing so many deadlines. If he did a little more damage control I think a good many people would have been happier. Just tell people we ran into unexpected issues with 3 key parts suppliers, we had a design flaw we discovered when testing and needed to redesign -----. Or what ever delay was.

Again I am not saying the public or buyers need to know every little detail about everything that is going on but a little more information might have ended some of the speculation and helped settle people down a bit

#363 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I've said it before, and it will never change. Barry is one of the best designers I've ever met, and given the right circumstances, he can make amazing games.
Yes, this game can still get made, and if it does, I'm sure it will be very good. I truly hope they succeed, but I just do not feel comfortable being a part of it.
I have been trying like hell to get out of this, and all my requests were ignored, or I was given one BS line after another -- and let's just say that it felt very familiar.
So that's why I've done this. I hate that I am left with so little recourse, but I have to put the well being of my own family above all else, and given the choice, I would do the same thing again.
Barry, I've practically begged you to find someone to take DP USA. I've iMessaged you, I emailed you, I've called you. I've even emailed you all the paperwork pre-filled out. I'll even help you put the company back together. You know that.
Take me off this company so we can all move on. Please.

Phil, thanks for sharing this information. Your charisma and enthusiasm was what made me make the preorder jump in the first place.

No matter what anyone says from here on out I still think you're one of the good guys and that even though this is a big mess you ultimately are trying to do the community right.

I sincerely hope that DP will address these licensing problems and reassure the VIP community in short order.

#364 5 years ago

I'm really want to but I need to at the very least sleep on it

#365 5 years ago

After reading this thread, why would anyone stay in?

Option:

a) you put in the money, TBL never gets made and you lose all your money

or

b) you don't put in the money, TBL gets made, and you get one (just a little bit later than you would have originally)

Risk over $8k just to get the game a few months earlier (and a rug)? Doesn't seem worth it at all. That's just my opinion though.

-29
#366 5 years ago

So, why did you get in?

I just dont understand this. This is business, no kindergarden where you can get in and out if you like. You knew this. Such an experienced guy.

I feel sorry for you, that this feels like such a burden for you and your family. But it was your descision, so you have to deal with it. That is normal in the big mens world.

And second thing i wonder, did you try yourself to find an american partner?

#367 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That said, I'd volunteer my time as an attorney/cpa to step in and work out whatever issues there are with Universal for DP if that would help bridge the gap. Not really a big deal.

I'm glad we have a few "pinattorneys"in the house.
Thanks Ice

#368 5 years ago

Phil, I'm really sorry to be reading all of this. I hope this can be resolved so you are free to relax with your family and focus on getting better.

-1
#369 5 years ago
Quoted from too-many-pins:

I don't have a dog in this race but the biggest mistake I am seeing over & over again with ALL the pinball makers is lack of communication. I am not saying they should post daily updates or anything but if they have major delays or other issues and they have your money why not tell buyers what is going

Dont think that is fair in this topic.

An ex employer causes a stir in the weekend, in the middle of the night. And still they send out an email with a first response within a few hours.

If all manufacturiers responded this fast, lack of communication in the pinball world was not even an issue.

35
#370 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

So, why did you get in?

I got in because they are my friends.
I helped with universal because I'm pretty good at the talking thing, and because they are my friends.
I paid for bride kits because I care about DP's reputation, and because they are my friends.
I paid in an extra €20,000 because I want TBL to succeed, and because they are my friends.
I told them to stop using unlicensed assets because I understand risk, and because they are my friends.
I walked away from one third of the profits because it's best for all of us, and because they are my friends.
And I am even doing this right now, so hopefully they will get their act together, whether they believe it or not, because they are my friends.

And I'm sorry that you don't understand that.

-53
#371 5 years ago

Yeah....

You are a real friend.....

Real friends go sit around the table and talk about the bad air. Trying to solve the problems. Not go out in public with the dirty laundery.

Thats what an enemy does, not a friend.

Good luck in finding what you want. Hope you get it and you all can shake hands afterwards. But this aint the correct route, in my humble opinion.

#372 5 years ago

Rick at pps must be happy tonight, The MMR thread has been dead with everyone over hear worried about this preorder instead.

#373 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Yeah....
You are a real friend.....
Real friends go sit around the table and talk about the bad air. Trying to solve the problems.

Dude. Go easy. You can't knock the man for telling his side of the story. He obviously put in a lot of time, energy, effort, and risk into this project. We don't know the full story, so try not to point fingers.

#374 5 years ago

Phil just reached out to me, saying he's working to get the refund I requested from Barry earlier this week.

#375 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

I got in because they are my friends.
I helped with universal because I'm pretty good at the talking thing, and because they are my friends.
I paid for bride kits because I care about DP's reputation, and because they are my friends.
I paid in an extra €20,000 because I want TBL to succeed, and because they are my friends.
I told them to stop using unlicensed assets because I understand risk, and because they are my friends.
I walked away from one third of the profits because it's best for all of us, and because they are my friends.
And I am even doing this right now, so hopefully they will get their act together, whether they believe it or not, because they are my friends.
And I'm sorry that you don't understand that.

Well said Phil

-4
#376 5 years ago

I am easy. Only telling that friends would never do this. Think i am right about that.

Feel free to disagree.

#377 5 years ago

Anyone at the party tonight post on this thread yet? What are they saying in NY tonight?

20
#378 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Real friends go sit around the table and talk about the bad air. Trying to solve the problems. Not go out in public with the dirty laundery.

You're right. Friends talk. But friends also listen. And if they don't listen, I get louder. And then I do everything in my power to make them listen. But when it is apparent, that no matter what I do, or what I say, or even where I say it, they simply joke it away and call me the "No no no no no" guy...

Yeah, friends are important, but family comes first.

#379 5 years ago
Quoted from Gusphan:

Phil just reached out to me, saying he's working to get the refund I requested from Barry earlier this week.

Me too, I think we need to find a way to let Phil move on with his life and Barry and crew to get this pin made.

Like I said before, I'll volunteer some time to help make this happen on this side of the pond. The legal BS of licensing and approvals should not be an issue.

32
#380 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

I am easy. Only telling that friends would never do this. Think i am right about that.

Feel free to disagree.

What would you do, if you went into a legitimate business with your friends, investing about $100'000, and a year's worth of (pretty darned good) free labor. You then found out they were doing something illegal. You try to talk them out of it, but they keep doing it. You scream, stop, but they keep doing it. You say fine, I quit, keep the profits, keep the money, just please take my name off the business so I don't get in trouble if you get caught. They don't.

Yeah, I disagree.

-35
#381 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

You're right. Friends talk. But friends also listen. And if they don't listen, I get louder. And then I do everything in my power to make them listen. But when it is apparent, that no matter what I do, or what I say, or even where I say it, they simply joke it away and call me the "No no no no no" guy...
Yeah, friends are important, but family comes first.

I agree, family comes first.

But it is still your own descision to step in. So, it is your responsebility to find a new partner if you want to get out.

And even when you favour your family, which is understandable, you dont try to destroy the work of your so called friends. That is just nasty. Wont help no one.

And, it is not smart too. If somehow, by your actions dp goes down, you are fucked too. Since you are still in.

I think you are gonne regret this. No mather how it will end.

#382 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

What would you do, if you went into a legitimate business with your friends, investing about $100'000, and a year's worth of (pretty darned good) free labor. You then found out they were doing something illegal. You try to talk them out of it, but they keep doing it. You scream, stop, but they keep doing it. You say fine, I quit, keep the profits, keep the money, just please take my name off the business so I don't get in trouble if you get caught. They don't.
Yeah, I disagree.

Here is what I would do.

Let's negotiate a promissory note with DP for all the $$$ you have invested into the project, payable out over a reasonable amount of time. You get paid back if they succeed.

Some of it might be sunk cost but hey, anything is better than nothing.

The best outcome for you and everybody is that DP is successful.

#383 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Here is what I would do.

Awesome, Ice to the rescue!

This game started on Pinside with RTR, maybe Pinside can help get it back on track.

#384 5 years ago

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#385 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Here is what I would do.

Let's negotiate a promissory note with DP for all the $$$ you have invested into the project, payable out over a reasonable amount of time. You get paid back if they succeed.

Some of it might be sunk cost but hey, anything is better than nothing.

The best outcome for you and everybody is that DP is successful.

I've already said they can keep the profits. If they need the money, they can keep everything in PayPal. All I wanted was for Barry to fill out the 8822-B Change of Responsibility form, so I am not responsible for Dutch Pinball. With an ITIN, he can put himself there. Or, anyone with an ITIN or Social can go on the form.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8822b.pdf

#386 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Here is what I would do.

Ok, Ice, you're from Texas, right? And that's still a part of The US, as far as I can recall. No lone-star nation yet.

You want the job?

That also takes care of Jaspers suggestion that I find someone myself.

Two birds, and all.

-27
#387 5 years ago

Nice way to ask for a mayor favour.

All that Barry has to do is take him out and suddenly, midproces, carry all the risc by himself.

Cause thats what friends do........

Good night gentlemen.

#388 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

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lawyer up boys.jpg
#389 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

What would you do, if you went into a legitimate business with your friends, investing about $100'000, and a year's worth of (pretty darned good) free labor. You then found out they were doing something illegal. You try to talk them out of it, but they keep doing it. You scream, stop, but they keep doing it. You say fine, I quit, keep the profits, keep the money, just please take my name off the business so I don't get in trouble if you get caught. They don't.
Yeah, I disagree.

If what you are saying is true, you really need to drop the whole "friends" issue. You are accusing people of fraud and have acknowledged that you were a party to said fraud. You've also noted that a company in which you held a managerial position in participated in various copyright infringements and other forms of intellectual property theft, which you had knowledge of. You really need a lawyer, because you were in a position to act and have not done so. Merely backing out and claiming no responsibility isn't an option at this point. Either what you said is true and you too are responsible to some extent or this is all a fabrication. Either way, I'd consult your lawyer to figure out what recourse you have rather than looking to the pinside community to grant you justice.

#390 5 years ago

OK, 4:30, gotta make a bottle for the baby before she starts crying and wakes up my wife.

#391 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

All that Barry has to do is take him out and suddenly, midproces, carry all the risc by himself.

HE'S THE ONE CAUSING THE RISK!

11
#392 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

OK, 4:30, gotta make a bottle for the baby before she starts crying and wakes up my wife.

I think we could all use a bottle right about now.

14
#393 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Ok, Ice, you're from Texas, right? And that's still a part of The US, as far as I can recall. No lone-star nation yet.
You want the job?
That also takes care of Jaspers suggestion that I find someone myself.
Two birds, and all.

Texas is its own nation!

I'm willing to help all you guys out. I sent Barry a reply so let's see what happens. Maybe I can help mediate all this for the benefit of everybody.

#394 5 years ago

this is so weird to watch it go down in real time.
Phil get well,
DP hope to hell you guys know what you are doing and it works out.
I love my WoZ. Bought 2 early on.
As a result, I decided 2 years ago that I would never, ever pre-order any fuc*ing thing again.

Ever.

-14
#395 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

HE'S THE ONE CAUSING THE RISK!

Or.... You are over reacting. Ive seen the translight for months now, and the game, and the music, and the caracters, etc etc etc.

Still they got no issues with the license. Why would it be a problem?

Maybe if some guy would cry out loud on a forum about licenses stuff, some dogs awaken. But you are worrying for nothing. Its a non issue.

If they do something license holders dont like they will get notice from that. And they have to stop it. It wont be the end of the world instantly.

#396 5 years ago
Quoted from RavellevaR:

If what you are saying is true, you really need to drop the whole "friends" issue. You are accusing people of fraud and have acknowledged that you were a party to said fraud. You've also noted that a company in which you held a managerial position in participated in various copyright infringements and other forms of intellectual property theft, which you had knowledge of. You really need a lawyer, because you were in a position to act and have not done so. Merely backing out and claiming no responsibility isn't an option at this point. Either what you said is true and you too are responsible to some extent or this is all a fabrication. Either way, I'd consult your lawyer to figure out what recourse you have rather than looking to the pinside community to grant you justice.

Now that sounds like a lawyer.

#397 5 years ago

Wow, this makes the Skit-B thing look tame at this point.....

With that said I would have no problem distributing games from a warehouse hear in Nashville, TN but I'm not putting any money into it myself and would want a salary for myself and people involved. Only fair I would say "if" this game ends up being produced.

-1
#398 5 years ago

Did someone say we need another Walter stat?

Oh-God-Walter-White-Freaks-Out-In-Breaking-Bad.gif
#399 5 years ago
Quoted from wolftownjeff:

Now that sounds like a lawyer.

Definitely an internet lawyer, like all of us.

#400 5 years ago

Unbelievable. I'm away one evening. This is the mother of all pinside threads. You know what they say. There's three sides to a story, theirs, his and the truth. From my experience, each side has some truth to it with a sprinkling of bullshit to sway opinion. I wanted to be in on the so bad but something always held me back. I'm glad I don't have a vested interest in this shit show. Good luck to the pinsiders who do.

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