(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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#301 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

KC was that the deck of the Titanic?

Yeah he said he was staying aboard.

10
#302 5 years ago

Once the dust settles, most of you will do it all over again.

#303 5 years ago
Quoted from bajapanda:

Because if you don't, there's a risk that this bank run, whether justified or not, can put the company and the game itself at risk. If everyone withdraws, where does the project itself end up without any backers that believe in the title and the game?

Dead as a doornail.

I'm sure there will still be people willing to go forward in spite of the risk of doing so, but clearly it is becoming more obvious to more people (see many other current threads on Pinside) just how much risk is involved in pre-orders, and fewer and fewer people are going to be willing to support this kind of risk taking.

#304 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Why would DP make a mention about not having the rights to use kahlua when they supposedly never had the rights to using John Goodman in the game? We really need to hear the other side to this story.
Edit: I just seems odd to fret over kahlua when the supporting actor of the movie never approved.

Cause that wasn't claimed by Phil; I think what can be interpreted from what he said was the assets provided by universal for john goodman was all there was going to be.. they apparently had no relationship with him anymore so they weren't going to go to John for new approvals. They said they could go get specific approvals for new art assets for the rest of the actors.

#305 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Cause that wasn't claimed by Phil; I think what can be interpreted from what he said was the assets provided by universal for john goodman was all there was going to be.. they apparently had no relationship with him anymore so they weren't going to go to John for new approvals. They said they could go get specific approvals for new art assets for the rest of the actors.

Oh I see, thanks for the clarification.

#306 5 years ago

I waiting for Barry or Jaap before I make a judgement
But it's odd for sure.

#307 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Dead as a doornail.
I'm sure there will still be people willing to go forward in spite of the risk of doing so, but clearly it is becoming more obvious to more people (see many other current threads on Pinside) just how much risk is involved in pre-orders, and fewer and fewer people are going to be willing to support this kind of risk taking.

I'm not defending the preorder model, but there's a difference when an established Stern does it versus an upstart that has a bunch of newcomers with NO previous pin production experience.

Heck, there's even a difference from when JJP had done it in as much as they had people on board previously established in the industry though they hadn't produced a pin as a team prior to woz.

#308 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Tell me again why I should pre-order a pinball machine?

Yep that free rug don't look so good now. Seriously I feel all your pain on this and would not wish this on anyone on pinsude or the hobby. Hope this ends up being a small blip in this games history but that looks doubtful.

#309 5 years ago
Quoted from bajapanda:

Because if you don't, there's a risk that this bank run, whether justified or not, can put the company and the game itself at risk. If everyone withdraws, where does the project itself end up without any backers that believe in the title and the game?

Yeah this has me a little worried but I'm in for now. I still have the last payment in April left, so I've got 7k at risk here.. not great, but this is a dream theme. I realize Phil has concerns about licensing and what happens if universal gets pissed off enough to pull the license. That's real ; the rest I'm not sure belonged out on the internet. It seems Phil wants to destroy them now.. him posting an email address to somebody at universal.. that seems too far.. I can only imagine that even if everything was 100% fine before.. a bunch of crazed pinball nerds emailing this woman would now put the license in jeopardy.. so, yeah.. Phil went too far in my opinion and seems to be wanting there to be a run on the bank now.. even though i think everything he mentioned could have been worked through eventually (and I still hope it does).

#310 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yeah this has me a little worried but I'm in for now. I still have the last payment in April left, so I've got 7k at risk here.. not great, but this is a dream theme. I realize Phil has concerns about licensing and what happens if universal gets pissed off enough to pull the license. That's real ; the rest I'm not sure belonged out on the internet. It seems Phil wants to destroy them now.. him posting an email address to somebody at universal.. that seems too far.. I can only imagine that even if everything was 100% fine before.. a bunch of crazed pinball nerds emailing this woman would now put the license in jeopardy.. so, yeah.. Phil went too far in my opinion and seems to be wanting there to be a run on the bank now.. even though i think everything he mentioned could have been worked through eventually (and I still hope it does).

If you missed it he also blew the top on what I assume is DP's second game, Back to the future. This is gonna be a tough mess to clean up.

#311 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

If you missed it he also blew the top on what I assume is DP's second game, Back to the Future. This is gonna be a tough mess to clean up.

i noticed that. hope it doesn't get him in any danger of a civil lawsuit - he MUST have signed some kind of NDA but who knows.

#312 5 years ago
Quoted from Rick432:

I'm not defending the preorder model, but there's a difference when an established Stern does it versus ....

Stern has never produced anything like these TBL prototypes. Bowen has never made a video that captures the essence of a pinball machine before.. because there was no reason to. Look at his sh*t eating grin in the first few minutes of the video including rolling a strike! To think that Barry and Jaap who struck gold are going to let it all slip away is insane. This game has received the most press ever and somehow Universal is clueless as to what is going on with the license?

http://papa.org/2014/12/12/big-lebowski-pinball-machine-by-dutch-pinball/

#313 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yeah this has me a little worried but I'm in for now. I still have the last payment in April left, so I've got 7k at risk here.. not great, but this is a dream theme. I realize Phil has concerns about licensing and what happens if universal gets pissed off enough to pull the license. That's real ; the rest I'm not sure belonged out on the internet. It seems Phil wants to destroy them now.. him posting an email address to somebody at universal.. that seems too far.. I can only imagine that even if everything was 100% fine before.. a bunch of crazed pinball nerds emailing this woman would now put the license in jeopardy.. so, yeah.. Phil went too far in my opinion and seems to be wanting there to be a run on the bank now.. even though i think everything he mentioned could have been worked through eventually (and I still hope it does).

I'm still in. I'd like to hear from Barry and Jaap also. So much time and effort has gone in to this project and the machine they created is amazing imo. It would be a shame if this pinball machine never got made. I'm still thinking that this is a disgruntled former employee.

#314 5 years ago

I wonder what a TBL PROTO will be worth if this all falls apart?
Talk about unabtainium!

#315 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

I'm still thinking that this is a disgruntled former employee.

I think there's some truth to that.

So while you have to take some of what he says with a grain of salt to be sure, that doesn't mean that everything that he's saying is crap either.

#316 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

I'm still thinking that this is a disgruntled former employee.

That's how it came off to me as well, especially considering the accusations of theft, the timing of this whole blowup, the email addresses to Universal rep being put out there ... definitely clouds the larger message I think. There's usually always elements of truth to everything and it sounds like he has reason to be pissed. But this is coming off like an ugly divorce and we're all the kids choosing sides.

I'd like to hear from them also as I'm still in - dream theme and a beautiful game. I wouldn't expect them to address the accusations individually but a complete and thorough status update (weekly??) that continues through the production run is deserved and needed for those of us still supporting an endeavor that just got a lot more risky.

#317 5 years ago
Quoted from bajapanda:

I wouldn't expect them to address the accusations individually but ...

Really? I'd think given the circumstances, DP would want to do a full point-by-point response if they're hoping to get back the pre-orders they just lost, and avoid additional cancellations.

#318 5 years ago

If I were universal and knew this was happening I would just sit around quietly and then wait until they are just starting to ship before calling in the lawyers. DP would be in a horrible negotiating position and universal could make as much as possible which let's be honest is what they will want to do.

#319 5 years ago
Quoted from LITZ:

Stern has never produced anything like these TBL prototypes. Bowen has never made a video that captures the essence of a pinball machine before.. because there was no reason to. Look at his sh*t eating grin in the first few minutes of the video including rolling a strike! To think that Barry and Jaap who struck gold are going to let it all slip away is insane. This game has received the most press ever and somehow Universal is clueless as to what is going on with the license?
http://papa.org/2014/12/12/big-lebowski-pinball-machine-by-dutch-pinball/

No one outside of the pinball community knows there's a Big Lebowski pinball machine. They don't read internet forums all day at the Universal licensing offices. But by doing that launch party, and by getting published in the local newspaper in Europe, they certainly are risking trouble if they haven't received the go-ahead to advertise the game and all its assets.

If what Phil says is true (and I have no stake in the game anyways so I have no idea who to believe), then it sort of shows why Stern games are tame in their artwork. They can only work with movie assets pre-approved by the studios. And those studios don't want to go back to the actors and re-negotiate.

And I'm not surprised how strict the licensors are. Does anyone remember how awful the Sandra Bullock image was on Demolition Man? Or how hard the Pinball Arcade has been working to get The Addams Family Pinball virtualized?

#320 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Nilroc said:

I'm still thinking that this is a disgruntled former employee.

Dunno, I seem to recall a similar situation with a distributor in Australia and everyone said it was a disgruntled employee talking shit.......and look how that turned out.

I personally hope that it's all not true and the game is made and delivered, but at this point I am going to wait until they are at my distributor before I lay down any money.

-1
#321 5 years ago

I re-submitted my preorder payment, Now after reading this for the last 3 hours I think we all NEED to hear from Barry and DP. Atleast this starts the 180 day paypal clock over for refunds and disputes if it all goes south.

#322 5 years ago

Remember all this crap is coming from one individual.

#323 5 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

I re-submitted my preorder payment, Now after reading this for the last 3 hours I think we all NEED to hear from Barry and DP. Atleast this starts the 180 day paypal clock over for refunds and disputes if it all goes south.

Exactly!

#324 5 years ago

I dunno... He's a smart enough guy that they trusted him with their marketing up to this point... I don't think he'd run the risk of libel on top of possible civil repercussions without knowing where the company stands... If the guy in charge of their US sales, acquiring licenses, and marketing tells you the owners are siphoning off money and are unable to acquire the necessary licenses to sell their product... I'd consider holding onto my money before giving it to the company in question who is offering no benefit for pre-ordering (except possibly a rug...)

#325 5 years ago

This has to be a record... fastest post to 300+ even though Phil accounts for 1/3 of that total.

#326 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

I wonder what a TBL PROTO will be worth if this all falls apart?
Talk about unabtainium!

Forget the Proto... there are less DP T shirts in existence. Luckily I have one of them!

#327 5 years ago

Can you imagine if Phil turns out to be JFH!

#328 5 years ago

Got to the party a little late tonight. Just plowed through the 7 pages. Not nearly as fun as my fake preorder thread oh so long ago....

My latest payment (I finished up payments 4,5, and 6 a couple weeks ago) was refunded ($4500) but not the original payments. Where are they?

Probably sticking around for now, but there are a couple of things that matter to me now in the over-shared story.

I would like the licensing issues to get a little cleaned up and some proof that it has been. Doesn't seem like there are irreconcilable differences there yet, but a little transparency on the status is called for now.

Would also like to see Phil completely out from a legal perspective. Very sloppy handling on DP's part to leave a disgruntled partner in place with keys to a lockbox. I cannot believe that my $4500 sent a week or two ago went to a guy (Phil) that was supposedly out of the company. Not good business.

Would like to know what the plan is for the North American partner. Is this something that DP is actively looking for?

Lastly, I would like my Tshirt.

#329 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Would also like to see Phil completely out from a legal perspective. Very sloppy handling on DP's part to leave a disgruntled partner in place with keys to a lockbox. I cannot believe that my $4500 sent a week or two ago went to a guy (Phil) that was supposedly out of the company. Not good business.

I said it before, "assinine"!

As for liability, I'm sure Phil doesn't care much about that as he battles cancer but there is no doubt there are some issues that have been created today that I can think of.

#330 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Yeah this has me a little worried but I'm in for now. I still have the last payment in April left, so I've got 7k at risk here.. not great, but this is a dream theme. I realize Phil has concerns about licensing and what happens if universal gets pissed off enough to pull the license. That's real ; the rest I'm not sure belonged out on the internet. It seems Phil wants to destroy them now.. him posting an email address to somebody at universal.. that seems too far.. I can only imagine that even if everything was 100% fine before.. a bunch of crazed pinball nerds emailing this woman would now put the license in jeopardy.. so, yeah.. Phil went too far in my opinion and seems to be wanting there to be a run on the bank now.. even though i think everything he mentioned could have been worked through eventually (and I still hope it does).

I agree 100%. I thought it was pretty foul to post her email address.

#331 5 years ago
Quoted from clg:

If I were universal and knew this was happening I would just sit around quietly and then wait until they are just starting to ship before calling in the lawyers. DP would be in a horrible negotiating position and universal could make as much as possible which let's be honest is what they will want to do.

Keep in mind that TBL is a 15-year old property. Universal isn't going to walk away from royalty/licensing revenue, especially on an older property such as this one. They are definitely no stranger to the world of pinball.

#332 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Universal isn't going to walk away from royalty/licensing revenue, especially on an older property such as this one.

It's still chump change for them.

#333 5 years ago

Wow DP, if you guys lose RTR, you fucked it up! You fucked it up!!

17
#334 5 years ago

Can we preorder BTTF from DP yet?

#335 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Universal isn't going to walk away from royalty/licensing revenue, especially on an older property such as this one.

This is probably very wrong. If Universal does something that pisses off actors, directors, intellectual property holders they work with, it could cost the millions in movies not made, or lawsuits against them. The pinball licenses are likely very small dollar amounts (I read somewhere, but don't quote me, that the license cost is around $50K for a movie based game for Stern). Universal or any other media company would gladly protect themselves by leaving money on the table if they think a deal would potentially hurt them.

#336 5 years ago

I'm gonna post this response I just got from Barry because I think it should hopefully calm some shit down.

"Just read your post on Pinside. I'm really sorry people are getting involved in this.

Like I said in my email, I really wanted to work this out as adults with Phil, but he decided to do this.

As for your refund. Phil was in charge of the Paypal and I asked him multiple times to do the refund to you. He just didn't responded.

I'm sure you will get your refund and again I'm really sorry this is happening. The only thing I want to do is make an awesome game. "

Don't mean to post a private email but I really appreciate the response. And I agree after thinking about all of this, Phil could have handled this a whole lot better. They have created an awesome looking pin.

#337 5 years ago

I was very excited about TBL. I hope the game gets made. I didn't preorder, but planned on buying it when they were shipping. I also wish Phil the best in his battle with cancer.

#338 5 years ago
Quoted from highdef:

Keep in mind that TBL is a 15-year old property. Universal isn't going to walk away from royalty/licensing revenue, especially on an older property such as this one. They are definitely no stranger to the world of pinball.

Not saying they will walk away more that they will maximise. DP has set an expectation of what it will look and sound like and it may cost them to deliver on it. Universal is in a better negotiation position now.

#339 5 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

This is probably very wrong. If Universal does something that pisses off actors, directors, intellectual property holders they work with, it could cost the millions in movies not made, or lawsuits against them. The pinball licenses are likely very small dollar amounts (I read somewhere, but don't quote me, that the license cost is around $50K for a movie based game for Stern). Universal or any other media company would gladly protect themselves by leaving money on the table if they think a deal would potentially hurt them.

Universal owns the rights to the movie and merchandise. Why would they be sued?
The license may not cost much, but there's a bigger picture and method to the madness:
http://www.nbcuniversalstore.com/the-big-lebowski/index.php?v=nbcu_movie-merchandise_the-big-lebowski

#340 5 years ago

This is crazy, I *just* watched the gameplay video released at papa's website, and was warming up to wanting to preorder. Seeing the real playfield being played gives me a much different impression than I had from looking at the schematic, and it looks to have the potential of being pretty fun, as long as they had been diligent about balancing the scoring. But these developments seem to indicate it's a fairly small chance this will come out more than a couple prototypes floating around .

#341 5 years ago
Quoted from clg:

Not saying they will walk away more that they will maximise. DP has set an expectation of what it will look and sound like and it may cost them to deliver on it. Universal is in a better negotiation position now.

Not really, 100% of nothing is ........nothing. I'd be happy to negotiate with them, its what I do

#342 5 years ago

Iceman,

I think its great that Barry got ahold of you. But, I wish he would post here directly. I want to stay in on this, but there are a lot of unanswered questions.

I have $6500 tied up with DP right now (I take full responsibility for that) between BoP and TBL. I didn't receive a refund today from Phil. And I cannot dispute with Paypal because its past the grace period.

So what now??? How do I get my refund?? Who do I contact? Because (as Barry's letter stated), a dispute with Paypal is not possible.

I'm just looking for answers. $6500 isn't pocket change to throw away or at least know where things stand.

I'm so bummed. Was so excited to see what was going to come out of New York this weekend... Now this. F*CK!!!

#343 5 years ago

We were praising them yesterday and today we're ready to hang 'em.
This could be a small hurdle or obstacle. Who knows? It's not like it's vaporware. They made it this far.

"Alex, I'll take "Optimism" for $4,000....."

#344 5 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

Wow DP, if you guys lose RTR, you fucked it up! You fucked it up!!

At ease Erik, I am not lost. Still have 4k in and no refund request.

#345 5 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

Can we preorder BTTF from DP yet?

I don't care who you are, that was funny.

#346 5 years ago
Quoted from ZenTron:

Can we preorder BTTF from DP yet?

It's a "2.0 Kit" for the Data East version. And yes, you will have to replace the factory speakers and power supply.

#347 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

And yet I'm sure everything is perfectly fine when it comes to the license (and Arnold) with Predator.
Yep, I went there...

Ouch.

#348 5 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Iceman,
I think its great that Barry got ahold of you. But, I wish he would post here directly. I want to stay in on this, but there are a lot of unanswered questions.
I have $6500 tied up with DP right now (I take full responsibility for that) between BoP and TBL. I didn't receive a refund today from Phil. And I cannot dispute with Paypal because its past the grace period.
So what now??? How do I get my refund?? Who do I contact? Because (as Barry's letter stated), a dispute with Paypal is not possible.
I'm just looking for answers. $6500 isn't pocket change to throw away or at least know where things stand.
I'm so bummed. Was so excited to see what was going to come out of New York this weekend... Now this. F*CK!!!

Things will looks a whole lot better in the light of day.

Phil is going to have to get his ass in gear on Monday to clean this mess up with paypal. He is on the hook and personally liable, don't worry.

That said, I'd volunteer my time as an attorney/cpa to step in and work out whatever issues there are with Universal for DP if that would help bridge the gap. Not really a big deal.

10
#349 5 years ago

Not a very classy way to handle a departure in general, but hey that's just my opinion man.

Timing it on the NY trip seems to be a bit vindictive or revengeful. Timed to make the biggest splash, most difficult to address by the DP crew in attendance.

Hitting this thread up with all the posts was gasoline on the fire in a forum that eats that kind of shit like candy.

DP's communications (if not timely) are at least professional and not contributing to the Springer show atmosphere. Give them a little time to catch their breath and get the concerns addressed.

-2
#350 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Now people that know me... I mean truly know me... know that the F-bomb persona, is just simply that... a persona that I used to market TBL. But we all know, that's marketing, right? Like Jaap says, he doesn't even like the movie.

I can tell you this. As a newbie to the pinball crowd and this was my first Expo I went to many seminars. When I saw yours I thought "what a jerk?". If that's your idea of marketing a product then you need to examine your skills. I have pinball machines for my family and friends, just who are you target marketing? I decided right then and there I would not buy a machine from you. So if your marketing idea was to isolate your market then you did it well. One word sums it up, CLASSLESS.

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