Actually, customers who have paid deposits but have not yet received delivery are classified as priority unsecured creditors. For an insolvent corporation -- one which cannot pay its financial obligations as they become due -- there is no value in equity, so the creditors have first claim on the company's assets. The fiduciary duties of directors and officers of an insolvent corporation expand to include creditors as well as equity shareholders.

Pinball, one of the only hobby's where you learn the ins and outs of investors, setting up a corporation, manufacturing and electrical work as well as liscensing rights. All of this for less than the cost of a four year college

Like I said, not investors. They have no standing to demand info. Unsecured creditor, priority or not, trends to get screwed. Unless your a secured creditor, chances of getting your assets back in full are low if a company goes under.

We also learn to mix Caucasions with B#ileys I#ish C#eme too.......

They have every standing to demand information from an insolvent company, and a trustee will fight for their rights every single day over the rights of your so-called "investors" (i.e., equity), who are at the absolute bottom of the totem pole. The right to information doesn't have a damn thing to do with the likelihood of recovery.

Says the guy with the name Gorf and an avatar of Darth Vader. Pot, kettle and all that shit.

The problem with your argument is they aren't insolvent, haven't filled for bankruptcy, and are foreign held. Good luck with that if it happens.

Unless you receive a refund...

I like it that way too... I normally throw some milk in too when I use Baileys... What I've started doing recently is throwing a shot of Cointreau in there... try it!

Spare room in adelaide. But close enough.

Something's wrong with KY? My best pal lives there. Did not notice his Momma last time I visited him.

LOL

Why doesn't someone have a lawyer contact DP and ask for their refund? Now is the time for legal action, before the company receives bankruptcy protection.

Yeah, we don't want them to protect themselves against bankruptcy, or they might end up making the game!

I realize that this is not your area of expertise, but please stop claiming that DP's customers have "no standing to demand information" because they are "not investors". This argument of yours, which you've regurgitated from the MMr thread, doesn't work in the Dutch Pinball situation. The companies making MMr (PPS and CGC) are *not* insolvent, and the right to information in this particular situation doesn't have anything to do with your low-likelihood-of-recovery argument.

Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. is arguably insolvent, because it cannot pay its financial obligations when they become due. The angry complaints in this very thread from customers demanding that their deposits be refunded is clear evidence of that, and the only thing keeping Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. out of bankruptcy at the moment is a simple, 2-page form filed in federal bankruptcy court (Chapter 7 Involuntary Bankruptcy petition) and a $335 filing fee.

Petition: http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/RulesAndPolicies/rules/BK_Forms_1207/B_005_1207f.pdf
Fees: http://www.ilnb.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/fee_schedule.pdf

Venue could be established in either Illinois (principal office) or Wyoming (state of incorporation).

https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=141190084199124060157201028180106126092020171249

The principal officers listed in the Wyoming public filing are Barry Driessen (President) and Jacob Pieter Nauta (Vice President), with a publicly-listed US address of 350 S Northwest Hwy, STE 300, Park Ridge, IL 60068.

In the event of a bankruptcy filing, Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. would CLEARLY be subject to US bankruptcy court jurisdiction and to the EXACT same reporting requirements of any other company in US bankruptcy court.

Shortly after the petition is filed, the Company's officers would be required under federal law to file a comprehensive Statement of Financial Affairs ("SOFA") and a detailed Schedule of Assets and Liabilities ("Schedules").

SOFA: http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/RulesAndPolicies/rules/BK_Forms_Official_2010/B_007_0410.pdf
Schedules: http://www.uscourts.gov/uscourts/RulesAndPolicies/rules/BK_Forms_1207/B_006_Summary_1207f.pdf

Those standard bankruptcy filings would provide the court with detailed information about the company's finances and give the bankruptcy trustee information about recent financial transactions, such as payments to insiders and related parties, payments to trade creditors, transfers of property, and gifts to others. In some circumstances, the trustee would be entitled to take back property or cash transferred to others prior to the bankruptcy filing and distribute the proceeds for the benefit of the unsecured creditors.

Those initial filings must be signed by a corporate officer under penalty of perjury. The penalty for making a false statement is a fine of up to $500,000 or imprisonment for up to 5 years, or both. 18 U.S.C. §§ 152 and 3571.

Bottom line: The possibility of bankruptcy in a situation like this is a serious matter, and people shouldn't be flippant about it. It's very easy to get into bankruptcy (i.e., $335 filing fee and a 2-page form), but it's very difficult to get out. If Dutch Pinball's directors and officers want to continue operating without the oversight and restrictions of a US bankruptcy judge, they would be well advised to do *whatever* they can to raise enough capital to refund deposits and eliminate even the appearance of insolvency.

Wow this thread makes the JPOP thread seem positive and uplifting. I believe DP will survive and produce TBL, because the game is too awesome to not get made! To call what happend with Phil & the lack of refunds a bump in the road would be an understatement. I think TBL will get made and DP will go on to make other games. (JMHO)

I think you are missing the point that they are not in bankruptcy and until that point, people with pre-orders have no right to financial disclosure.

There is no reason for DP to declare bankruptcy (which I certainly hope they do not do as I want to see them survive and make great games) until creditors demanding payment push them to seek that protection.

No it doesn't.

It's like you didn't even read the post that you are replying to.

No...what you are missing the very significant distinction of bankruptcy filing which DP would not do unless creditors were pushing legal action requiring them to declare bankruptcy.

Hey! What's all this lying around shit? Nothing is over until we decide it is, was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Neither of us are missing that point.

Claiming that people with pre-orders have no right to financial disclosure actually INCREASES the risk of an involuntary bankruptcy petition, because when creditors are denied financial transparency in situations like this, they subsequently get all of the detailed information that I outlined earlier when they file an involuntary petition. An involuntary petition is initiated by creditors without the consent or support of the company involved. That's why it's called "involuntary".

Denying requests for financial transparency is a dangerous game of chicken to play with creditors, and it can have very serious consequences for the directors and officers if the decision-makers miscalculate.

I think we are actually in agreement. I absolutely agree that it is in DP best interest to provide that transparency to avoid a forced bankruptcy, the only point I was trying to make is that the pre-order person is not legally entitled to that information until bankruptcy.

All I can say is that if Roger Sharpe is a volunteer to work on DP matters, fine. If he is working for pay for services rendered; I hope he is on a cash in advance basis.

To further clarify this statement, the Debtor/TBL would have 21 days under federal law to answer this "petition" which they most assuredly would.

Then there would be a hearing set up to determine the validity of the petition and whether or not the judge believes there is sufficient evidence to allow the bankruptcy to move forward. "Shortly" can mean months.

For the deposits to qualify as a "claim" under 11 US code 101 is as follows:

"(5) The term “claim” means—
(A) right to payment, whether or not such right is reduced to judgment, liquidated, unliquidated, fixed, contingent, matured, unmatured, disputed, undisputed, legal, equitable, secured, or unsecured; or
(B) right to an equitable remedy for breach of performance if such breach gives rise to a right to payment, whether or not such right to an equitable remedy is reduced to judgment, fixed, contingent, matured, unmatured, disputed, undisputed, secured, or unsecured."

Thus we are talking about proving up subsection (B) and breach of performance via promissory estoppel or some other remedy.

Plenty of material for TBL to muddy up the waters and delay this whole thing for months, and then IF by some miracle the judge allowed the bankruptcy to proceed, if DP hadn't gotten it together, DP could easily shift it to a Chapter 13 and pay off the deposits on a schedule and over a much longer time period.

A involuntary bankruptcy filing can't hurt TBL anymore than it would hurt Jpop, try it out and see what happens, and who the losers are.

As long as they can avoid personal liability, they could just go along with shutting down the business, pay off the debts and distribute the assets and THEN open up under another entity IF anyone would ever give them a dime.

So at the end of the day, the damage these guys do to themselves by lack of transparency and communication goes WAY BEYOND any the impact of any legal redress you might get in the courts.

The lesson from Skitb, DP and Jpop? Buyer beware!

There are SIMPLE steps that could be put in place before pinheads give these terrible stewards of our funds anything.

It starts with a "TRUSTEE" and escrow in the first place. If you need the "Bankruptcy Trustee" to take over, then, well its OVER anyhow.

here's a question to all you knowledgeable folk out there: Does anyone know what the legal rights are of people sending pre-order money to DP and the legal resposibilities of DP? Did these people (myself included) agree to some sort of terms and conditions when we paid the cash?

I understand, for example, that DP promised to give refunds if the refund request was made before they go into full production, but I don't believe that it was stated anywhere when that refund would be granted (maybe I'm wrong). If it's the case that DP have a legal obligation to issue refunds, but not a legal obligation to do so at a specific time, then maybe their legal requirement is to issue refunds 'at their convenience'. If this is the case, then I can imagine that the plan could be to record the refund requests, so that they know which people they need to refund, then hold back on giving those refunds until that person's game is made... they could then ask that person if they still want the refund, or if they want the game instead... if the person stays with their request for a refund, then they'd offer that game to the next in line with the same option. Clearly some people would still want the game, so they continue like this 'till they have enough cash to issue refunds to those that have refused the game...

My question is: Is it in their legal right to proceed like this if they did not state WHEN the requested refund would be made?

Clearly there are a lot of people posting here that know a lot more about this side of things than a nail bender like me... so I'd really appreciate those that know the answer to my question to share their knowledge... The question again is: Is it within DPs legal right to proceed as I described?

In my opinion, all customers who gave a deposit must do whatever they can to get as much of that money back ASAP. Forget about holding out hope that you will ever get the machine...that is called blind faith and there is enough smoke here to warrant action.

That's if you believe everything you read on Pinside.

Just like JJP, I think the customers that really want the game need patience. Shit they're not even late on production.
I'm not bailing because of Phil.

Unfortunately, you can't get any information elsewhere..

Bring on Stern/JJP to produce it. Problem solved.

You need more friends

You've been a member of Pinside for 2 weeks, made 7 posts and are making statements that are trying to evoke more panic in people who are already spooked by what's happening at DP... For what do we owe the pleasure of your input?

telling me I have no facts then declaring DP insolvent w/o seeing their books? Hello pot, have you met the kettle? If someone wants out by all means do what you have to to get out. They still don't have any legal standing to demand an update from the company on the project status. They can ask all day but if DP does not want to give it, they don't have to. If that makes people nervous then they shouldn't give someone money on a preorder basis. I am in on BoP 2.0 its a year late, shit happens. Some games still have not gotten out and what has is not complete. I can ask what the status is but they don't have to tell me. Is it good customer relations to give an update sure, but they don't have to. Everyone who put money in DP pockets did so and assumed the risk willingly.

You also seem to be assuming that the newly formed DP USA had taken over the assets and obligations of the original DP USA. They probably did, but that is not known.

It's amazing how many Trolls are among you try to derail this (and other) treads time after time again.

So far DP has done an amazing job. I mean they came with an amazing looking pinball machine, in a short notice. The marketing campaign was top notch and the most important; they seem to have met their own deadline so far! That can't be said of some other manufacturers!

- production is scheduled for next April... I see not why that deadline can't be met.

And for all of you refunders -> instead of "scream kill and fire" (Dutch saying) pick up the phone and call Barry or email him. He's a very nice and approachable guy. There will probably be an understandable explanation...

This thread is a result of a derailing of the company though, isn't it? Who exactly are you calling a troll?

Or is the derailing of a company a result of this thread...

Or, another speculation is that no company has actually been derailed, and this thread is just creating an illusion to that effect...

I guess he was referring to robfg67 as the troll though... his posts do seem like the most troll-like around here... maybe that profile was made to try and help promote the derailing illusion... maybe even by a competitor??

I RESEMBLE THAT STATEMENT! Or, is it I resent that statement! I guess I had better go upstairs from Mom's basement and ask her what is the correct word. We don't get out much here in Kentucky.

I can't wait for this game to ship so some of these trolls can stfu.

Is this Vonnie D????

Poor ole Vonnie. Wonder how his case is going? Unless I've missed it on Pinside, I haven't heard anything recently on his predicament.

Really, counselor? I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this was a simple typo on your part, because you're much too smart to think that a corporate debtor can file in Chapter 13.

Let's just say that some Nihilists walked up behind you while you were typing your response, and they caused you to drop your beverage and hit the '3' key instead of the '1'. Perfectly understandable. Happens to the best of us. "Nothing is fucked here, Dude!"

Being serious for a moment, I totally agree with you here. To your credit, you first mentioned the idea of a trustee watching over the funds a month ago, and I gave you a thumbs up for that suggestion at the time. I definitely agree that an escrow account managed by a trustee is the best way to go here. Hopefully, DP management will give serious consideration to that suggestion, especially since it is being repeated a month later.

How's the situation with the people who asked for a refund? Still nothing?

I think if anyone on here got a refund there would be a flurry of information... so all I can advise is that no news means no refunds.

I think you're being trolled. It's like hopping into a thread for family of the passengers on the missing AirAsia and saying "Hey guys, they find that plane yet?" If they found it, you'd hear about it.

And I would think a newsletter from them saying all refunds have been processed and 'time to move forward' could help matters.

So you're stiffing peoples opinions based upon duration of membership? This is a free country, being a bully has no effect here. Plus, I think he's right.

Funny thing is, "shutting up" the critics would be even easier than that.

If DP just refunded the growing list of folks that have requested them, I suspect the concerns would be either completely or at least dramatically reduced.

And btw, all the conjecture in these threads is 99% the fault of poor communication from the company.... Pinside, like nature, abhors a vacuum.

AGREED

I'm not sure if this point of view has been brought up as of recently, but is it possible DP has just activated a "hurry up" mode?

*badumch!*

Seriously, is it possible they're not responding because they're trying to sprint to the finish line and get some games moving? Once they sell some actual tangible machines then can say, "Alright, who wants a refund now?" (Because they will have generated some revenue from the sales by then).

I know from emails from Barry that they are still on schedule to start production April 1st.

No, I'm saying it looks like the account was made up to stir trouble.