(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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#2851 4 years ago
Quoted from anubis2night:

You guys don't make a bit of sense, right now there are people who are waiting for their refunds, you can dress this up however you want but until those people concerns are addressed, namely where is their money and what is the financial situation at this point, the rest is just conjecture. throwing a sticker on a machine hasn't changed anything. Let's try and remember that some people have been waiting over a month with their money stuck in limbo without a proper response.
Those people are our community, we should be supporting them. Persoanlly I dig the game, I'd like to see it made and I'd love to play it but first id like to see these people taken care of.

Everyone wants the refunds distributed to those who want out. Frustration is just that Phil's breaking point was the unlicensed stuff being shown at NYC.. Which caused the un requested refunds which caused this thread which caused Phil to dump every bit of dirty laundry from his view which caused flood of requested refunds.

So, if we now can see in hindsight that event 1 wasn't the big deal he saw it to be, everything afterwards is fucked up situation. Imagine a world where this thread didn't exist.. But all the things that happened since did (roger Sharpe came on board, CPA was hired).. I.e., worked behind the scenes like normal businesses (this is shared DP and Phil, I realize Phil felt he was being ignored).

Would you not agree that there likely would be a ton less refunds needed at this point? That people who actually wanted a refund would get it promptly (presuming Phil was quietly worked out or was now comfortable enough to let Barry and Jaap log into PayPal account).. That people would be universally pumped for the game still like they were before this thread and that would be fine cause there wasn't anything fucked up?

Instead we have today.. Could there be a financial problem now giving back so many refunds? Its possible.. Its called a run on the bank for a reason. But yeah I don't believe "financial issues" were a cause, they are a possible effect.

Anyways, its just a shame where we are today and I know where I place most of the blame. Actually, this is a perfect example in life where nothing is fucked up originally but communication (between business partners).. But how communication is a huge deal and can lead to real issues.

Here's to some refunds being generated soon.

#2852 4 years ago

Tom what do you think would have happened if Phil had not spoken up? Don't you see that they were very VERY clearly abusing the terms of their licensing agreement? To the point where they have to cover it in stickers! They're producing more stickers than games at this juncture, in fact.

Where, in your mind, was DP heading ignoring Phil and ignoring his public request to be removed from DP? Were they on a good path? I'm just not seeing that. I appreciate your commentary on this by the way, some of the rah rah cheerleader nonsense is veering into maniacal territory a few comments above.

#2853 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Dp had never had financial issues until Phil came out of the closet.

Quoted from sd_tom:

Would you not agree that there likely would be a ton less refunds needed at this point? That people who actually wanted a refund would get it promptly

Some of you guys have VERY selective memories...

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

that Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.
keep in mind, jaap and i had NOTHING to do with bride. this was a koen / barry project, but we knew, if this thing didn't ship, nobody would by TBL.

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

i paid for all our flights. all our hotels, parts, our regus office in the states, you name it. i even wired in about $25,000 in cash to Jaap to help pay the bills.

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

November 26, 2014: Here's where Barry wants me to use Dutch Pinball USA money to buy 30 Zotac ZBOX-CI320NANO-U Barebone PCs at 130.00 each for a total of $3,900.00 for the US Bride Kits.
I said no.

Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

I dunno...I requested my refund prior to all of this hullabaloo. And nothing. So to say that DP's problems are exclusive to this thread seems a touch short sighted.

#2854 4 years ago
Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

Tom what do you think would have happened if Phil had not spoken up? Don't you see that they were very VERY clearly abusing the terms of their licensing agreement? To the point where they have to cover it in stickers! They're producing more stickers than games at this juncture, in fact.

I guess I don't feel like the sticker is necessarily mandated by Universal.. I see it as a PR signal... either to us or to Phil that the license is being handled carefully/kid gloves now in the aftermath. Since Phil and Barry's communications had broken down prior to the NYC show, and listening to Roger.. I leave open the door that Universal was fine with the NYC show, but Phil didn't know that cause he wasn't in communication anymore. But, I'm speculating just like everyone else... who knows. If the playfield was so far from being released or had something so offensive on it then I would expect stickers on the offending parts or the old playfields never to be shown again. Instead, we have the same exact playfield that was at the NYC show, with a single sticker on the middle of the playfield not covering up anything specifically (vs the black Kahlua bottle which IS covered up specifically) that to me, I'm satisfied they weren't ever as close to the precipice of losing the license entirely as was suggested here. i.e., repeating Roger again with his "band-aid not a tourniquet" statements on the coast 2 coast podcast.

Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

Where, in your mind, was DP heading ignoring Phil and ignoring his public request to be removed from DP? Were they on a good path? I'm just not seeing that. I appreciate your commentary on this by the way, some of the rah rah cheerleader nonsense is veering into maniacal territory a few comments above.

Right, I too get a little concerned about some of my pre-order brothers getting a little too cheerleader which invokes equal anti-cheerleader responses sometimes. But, it's pinside As far as the path they were on, clearly it was coming to a head one way or the other. DP probably being a bit too focused on getting games built and not realizing Phil was going down hill medically, which I'm sure colors his view of things (who wouldn't be changed by that) and not prioritizing his needs. So I don't know.. maybe if it wasn't the NYC show licensing concerns that pushed him over the edge, I'm not sure what would of been the tipping point.. that's fair. I personally can't imagine doing the meltdown on pinside route, so maybe that's why I attribute more blame on that side.. personality thing.

I guess, blame aside.. it's just so unfortunate that communications break down between them lead to communications meltdown here, which has lead to run on bank which may lead to more significant financial challenges now. Time will tell.

#2855 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

But, I'm speculating just like everyone else... who knows.

This is why we have a problem: no information. All we know is the company principals have a severe disagreement that has not been resolved for months. No information = no confidence = no money flowing back to the project. I was in, but am now out and wouldn't think of going back in until more information is available. Simple as that - not taking sides, no animosity, just no confidence in the company right now.

Information... at this point a project plan, general timeline and overview of the financing that'll make it happen would be nice. Basic roadmap.

#2856 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Some of you guys have VERY selective memories...

I see all that, haven't forgotten it. I have filed a lot of it under "revisionist history" of things that he was probably ok with at the time, and then not ok with in the context of meltdown. I can also see them wanting to use the USA dollar to buy USA things to minimize currency exchange losses. I see less than $100k of stuff, which is about 12 TBL machines, so even if all of it was true it is not terribly significant in the grand scheme.

And in the pre-order game, I personally never expected the pre-order deposits to sit in escrow somewhere and be entirely separate from development costs. I wouldn't expect someone going on an meltdown accounting / dirty laundry rant of JJP, Skit-B, JPOP, or any of the other pinball start ups to not have this kind of thing going.

So, that's why it doesn't bother me as much as some.

#2857 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I see all that, haven't forgotten it. I have filed a lot of it under "revisionist history" of things that he was probably ok with at the time

Might want to read those posts again then, because he made it clear in the emails that he was sending to Barry that he was not, in fact, "probably ok with it at the time".

I don't understand the "revisionist history" remark either, considering that he posted actual emails that he had sent regarding these issues as they were occurring.

#2858 4 years ago

People seem to have glossed over many of Phil's other points and screen grabs about the money being deposited elsewhere. Most people that jumped did so becuase of the shakey financial situation that was made visible, and rightly so. While Phil did create this issue in part, let's not forget that he was left holding an account long after he left. And as seen above at least a few people requested refunds before this mess and have still not recieved theirs.

#2859 4 years ago

I am so sick of all the positive response of how DP is moving forward and how production will start. Bottom line is:
Phil was out of his element.
And "where's the money lebowski?"

All anyone should give a crap about is the financial state of the company, with out cash the licenses, production, distribution will never proceed. They need money to do that, so they can either fix the problem with thier customers and send refunds, or continue to ignore that problem as they have the past month and act like nothing is wrong and operate as usual. Sorry guys but a few emails saying Phil will refund me is not at all comforting to me and it shouldn't be to those who are still in. What's 8k on a project this huge? They should be able to cut a check for 8k like its nothing.

#2860 4 years ago

We all agree your issues should be fixed. Nobody is denying that.

But telling that on about a thousand times in the same topic, wont help you.

#2861 4 years ago

The big lesson....Pre Orders Suck. If this were a normal company funded by owners investment, all this stuff could be/would be happening behind the scenes and no one would know or care.

Different story when you've got 1000's of dollars invested in the company.

My guess is there is no way DP could fulfil all the requested refunds without obtaining external funding. So they are trying to buy time. Hopefully that's what the new accountant guy is working on.

#2862 4 years ago

I agree. I would never pre order a pin like this.

Maybe if you have so much money it does not mather anymore. But even then i think i would not do it.

#2863 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

We all agree your issues should be fixed. Nobody is denying that.
But telling that on about a thousand times in the same topic, wont help you.

I'm going to continue to state it 1000 more until people stop drinking the DP koolaid and ask the most import questions. DP has done a great job of continuing to snowball people. Like a magician they are directing most people's attention away from the most important state of the company. They continue to tour and show the machine, continue to take orders for the machine as well as talk to individuals about the progress they are making with the game. But when the money issue comes up its "don't say peep while I'm doing business"

#2864 4 years ago

Razorbak- completely agree.

#2865 4 years ago

So, in your opinion its not allowed to say DP needs to fix these issues AND be positive of all other stuff they are working on?

Cause then you get sick?

#2866 4 years ago

This is a huge thread...........In short, is this game going be made and sold in the USA???

#2867 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

So, your view its not allowed to say DP needs to fix these issues AND be positive of all other stuff they are working on?
Cause then you get sick?

Stay positive, yea I guess. If they have the funds to throw more parties, time to respond to new orders and new money as well as money from curgent owners still paying thier money in then they have time and ability to refund others.

#2868 4 years ago
Quoted from pindan3:

This is a huge thread...........In short, is this game going be made and sold in the USA???

The reason why this thread is so long is partially because no one knows.

-1
#2869 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

They need money to do that, so they can either fix the problem with thier customers and send refunds

That's like saying 'I need a roof over my head, so I'm going to fix it by knocking the walls of my house down'...

#2870 4 years ago
Quoted from pindan3:

In short, is this game going be made and sold in the USA???

I think the answer is 'yes', unless they issue all the refunds that are being requested, in which case they'll probably go bankrupt, and then the answer is more likely 'no'. I'm personally hoping they decide to make the game... That is, afterall, why I gave them a lot of money

#2871 4 years ago

It's ironic that because so many people want refunds now (I'm guessing it's a lot...I could be wrong) the issuing of refunds would most likely cause the exact scenario that people are concerned about...ie financial collapse. Classic Catch 22.

Short of an external investor coming on board, it's likely in the best interest of all pre-orderers to sit tight and hope this thing gets made.

Not taking sides either way..no question it's a great game. But those are the 2 options as I see it.

I really think DP have to address it soon or the panic will just spread. Maybe Rick or Gary might like to stump up some cash as silent partners?

#2872 4 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

We all agree your issues should be fixed. Nobody is denying that.
But telling that on about a thousand times in the same topic, wont help you.

We are the only ones providing factual information. EVERYTHING ELSE in this thread is drivel and emotionally fueled bluster.

#2873 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

The reason why this thread is so long is partially because no one knows.

thxs, this saved me a lotta time reading this thread.

#2874 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I think the answer is 'yes', unless they issue all the refunds that are being requested, in which case they'll probably go bankrupt, and then the answer is more likely 'no'.

That's very short sighted. It assumes that capital is fixed and financing is a zero-sum game. "If refunds are processed, the company goes bankrupt. If no refunds are processed, then the games can be made." It all assumes that the amount of cash in the pot is fixed.

The company needs more capital. When they get more capital, they can issue refunds, build the games, make a profit on the venture, and then repay the investors and/or lenders who provided the capital.

#2875 4 years ago

DP should just pull a move out of Jpop's playbook and announce another title and start taking more preorders. That will get the money flowing.

-2
#2876 4 years ago

My wife's theory on all this is that DP are actually a faction of the Islamic State and are using money from pre-orders to fund terrorist attacks... I told her that I didn't think that was the case, but I'd put it out on Pinside anyway

#2877 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

My wife's theory on all this is that DP are actually a faction of the Islamic State and are using money from pre-orders to fund terrorist attacks... I told her that I didn't think that was the case, but I'd put it out on Pinside anyway

As good as any other theory.

#2878 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

My wife's theory on all this is that DP are actually a faction of the Islamic State and are using money from pre-orders to fund terrorist attacks... I told her that I didn't think that was the case, but I'd put it out on Pinside anyway

Do yourself a favor and stop posting stupid shit.

#2879 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

That's like saying 'I need a roof over my head, so I'm going to fix it by knocking the walls of my house down'...

Please explain your statement. You can't simply quote part of what I said and put a sarcastic analogy like its a counter argument and expect people to understand.

As I see it, if they process refunds they will achieve more for this project than anything else they can do at this point.

If refunds are processed:
-It will provide the illusion they have control over their finances and money management
-Confidence will be regained in their management (I have zero at this point)
-with some confidence regained there is a chance some of those refunds will be sent right back into the company (increasing their cash flow)
-New customers will not hesitate to sign up and get in the on the project (increasing their cash flow)
-Eliminate the conspiracy bs surrounding the company
-Customer confidence is the only reason this company started, now they are losing it at an incredible rate each day they let slip by.

What I would really like to know is when was the last requested refund was received as well as when was the last requested refund has not been returned. We all know the day phil went a little crazy, but that is not necessarily day zero. Day zero would be when the first requested refund was ignored. Does anyone know when this is?

#2880 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

Do yourself a favor and stop posting stupid shit.

Do I detect a sense of humor failure? Besides, what I said is fact, one of the few facts actually stated on this thread... she really did say that!

#2881 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Please explain your statement. You can't simply quote part of what I said and put a sarcastic analogy like its a counter argument and expect people to understand.

As I see it, if they process refunds they will achieve more for this project than anything else they can do at this point.

I also believe that by issuing refunds they could turn this around and regain confidence... sorry, my response was a bit flippant... I must admit I reacted to what I thought was a funny contradiction... they need money, so give it back... I do get the idea, and have actually suggested exactly what you said directly to Barry about two weeks ago believe it or not.

#2882 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

That's very short sighted. It assumes that capital is fixed and financing is a zero-sum game. "If refunds are processed, the company goes bankrupt. If no refunds are processed, then the games can be made." It all assumes that the amount of cash in the pot is fixed.
The company needs more capital. When they get more capital, they can issue refunds, build the games, make a profit on the venture, and then repay the investors and/or lenders who provided the capital.

This is true, but if they push this all off until the games are made, those people that wanted those refunds would rather have the game I am sure. The reality is that all of us are at the mercy of DP. They can decide to not refund people and build the game, they could decide to go bankrupt, they could decide any number of things and the reality is that there is almost nothing we can do about it. At the same time, we all knew that before we gave them our money. As much as I want to blame DP for this whole mess, they didn't put a gun to my head and force me to send them the money. I can accept that I am to blame for them having my cash.

#2883 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I'm bowing out of this thread and will be read only.

!!iStock_000008128745Small.jpg

#2884 4 years ago

A LOT of posts here are assumptions presented as facts...

So before you all continue can anyone get for example get these figures straight:

1. How many (factual) pre-orders have been made up to date?
2. How many (factual) asked for a refund due to Phil-gate?

- There are a lot more important ins-and-outs, but how can anyone come to any conclusion on DP's (financial) situations without at least those two numbers present?!? So please let me know where I can find those figures, otherwise it's better to "Shut the f*ck up, Donny!".

#2885 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

This is true, but if they push this all off until the games are made, those people that wanted those refunds would rather have the game I am sure.

My thoughts exactly! I have a feeling this is the way DP are planning to play it, right or wrong...

-2
#2887 4 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

The big lesson....Pre Orders Suck. If this were a normal company funded by owners investment, all this stuff could be/would be happening behind the scenes and no one would know or care.
Different story when you've got 1000's of dollars invested in the company.
My guess is there is no way DP could fulfil all the requested refunds without obtaining external funding. So they are trying to buy time. Hopefully that's what the new accountant guy is working on.

no one here other than DP has any money invested in the company, stop acting like you are have an investment. You have a purchase request and deposit. You are a consumer, not an investor.

#2888 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I'm bowing out of this thread and will be read only.

You can break your own promise you know... Come on, let it all out!! You'll feel better!!

#2889 4 years ago

Mixed 15mins ago and consumed 5mins ago! It's interesting that the glass used in the game looks identical to my own choice of receptacle for the same beverage! It is my most modestly priced receptacle! Cheers everyone!

WR.jpg

#2890 4 years ago

You need a piece of electrical tape over kaluha

#2891 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

You need a piece of electrical tape over kaluha

I thought of doing that, but the rebel inside me decided to f#*k it

#2892 4 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

no one here other than DP has any money invested in the company, stop acting like you are have an investment. You have a purchase request and deposit. You are a consumer, not an investor.

#2893 4 years ago

I really hope the by black tape masked kalua bottle makes it into the final game!

#2894 4 years ago

Airplane bottle mod here I come

#2896 4 years ago
Quoted from BoozeMarlin:

images.jpg 7 KB

"No Boozemarlin, you're not wrong! ... You're an asshole!"

State corrected -> You're wrong too.

#2897 4 years ago
Quoted from HENSBROOKER:

"No Boozemarlin, you're not wrong! ... You're an asshole!"
State corrected -> You're wrong too.

imgres.jpg
#2898 4 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

no one here other than DP has any money invested in the company, stop acting like you are have an investment. You have a purchase request and deposit. You are a consumer, not an investor.

I'll be a consumer once I recieve something.

#2899 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Mixed 15mins ago and consumed 5mins ago! It's interesting that the glass used in the game looks identical to my own choice of receptacle for the same beverage! It is my most modestly priced receptacle! Cheers everyone!

WR.jpg 76 KB

Gotta replace that cream with Irish cream. The only way I take my Caucasian is vodka, kaluah and baileys.

-6
#2900 4 years ago

All of you guys are "FAT" geeks ..You live in mommas basement in Kentucky...........

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