DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game

Did you email Barry? Iceman was able to work his out. I think between deposits going in yesterday and the accountant involved you should get it soon. Email him and just expect a reasonable time for them to fix the accounting which is under way.
And no I dont want anyone to lose 5k.
I do think you should be able to come on here and ask us to push if you are not getting results and I think you will see even the supporters will be in your corner. Still not sure how two guys with nothing involved are the ones to help you but if you feel they are the solution I will shut up.

It's just a freaking discussion man, my god. I never claim what I have to say is the solution for anything, just a discussion.

The argument that you can't have an opinion unless you actually "have skin in the game" holds zero water.

It's a freaking pinball forum. We discuss all things pinball. Tons of us are interested in TBL. Yes, even those of us who don't actually have money down on a pre-order.

Would you consider me worthy for this thread, then? Here is the context:

- I am a TBL fan

- I was on the original "virtual TBL" wish list.

- I did not join the pre-order list as
i) I was - still is - overcommitted elsewhere
ii) I was not so convinced by the information given by DP. If you remember the initial website, the only clear information provided at that time was the prepayment plan...
iii) I am unconvincing about the lower PF lastability.

- I almost jumped in after the PAPA video. Yeah, it was that good... (so good I would argue that this video looks like a "commercial" - not built like other PAPA video I saw)

- I chickened out after the Refund / Phil / DP-US affair. Rather fortunate for my bank account as I would not have been capable of raising enough money in time.

- I might buy the game at a later stage. Probably not NIB.

So... Am I legit?

Actually he felt you were helping him with his solution.

Actually he didn't, he just said that he appreciated our level-headed discussion.

Until something new surfaces, I suggest we stop feeding the angry spectators.
Their boredom and down right unpleasantness they're projecting on the thread is not good for anyone no matter what the outcome and really they do not have any inside knowledge so what's the point?
Just to see themselves type? Time will tell and either they are right or wrong, but my money's on them being wrong.

@Curtis - your concern is very valid, I hope you update as that develops.

Yup and you too Rob. Because you may have bought, you have bought and you probably will buy again.
My point is that's skin in the game, meaning it affects you in some way.
It has nothing to to do with exclusivity. Its about common ground.
Like I said anyone can comment, of course. Its one thing to have an opinion but another to get deep in to a thread on a specific subject and yet not be involved in any way.
Regardless I am wrong because someone involved found it helpful. Totally fine with being wrong ; )

SHE! Dammit!

Doh! Sorry : )

Happens all the time, it's called discussions.

For the record, I would love to buy a BOP 2.0 once it is an actual product. I would love to buy a TBL one day, again, when it is an actual product. I have friends who are waiting for refunds. I have tried to be very fair and factual with anything that I have posted. I have had people reference one of my posts as a reason they stopped panicking and wanted to wait it out and see how DP handled it. I feel plenty justified to participate in this discussion. Sure, we have all seen threads where uninterested parties show up just to yell "This game sucks" over and over again, but I think that is a false equivocation with what I have been saying. If you have a problem with anything specific that I have claimed, call me out on it, and we can have a discussion.

I'm glad they got Jeff Marchetti on board, from what I hear of the man he's overqualified for the position. If anything is a miss in the books, by fault of DP or Phil he will find it.

Come on dude, we can't let the terrorists win....

I´m truly sorry for Phil´s state of health of course, I know how cancer is a life wrecker, my own mother died of it when I was 16 (she was 38), and my dads next wife also was a victim of it... not sure how bringing that up adds any value apart from to try and make me look insensitive and maybe shame me... OK, if that´s your angle, fair enough... The main point of my posting what I am is not to say that Phil is evil, but to try at least to get some sort of ballance on what seems like a lot of negativity towrards DP which may not all be justified... Yes, what I´m proposing is speculation, but then so is not considering an ulterior motive from Phil´s side... the overriding un-answered question which supports the possibility that there is something we´re not seeing is: Why would DP refuse to let him go? I´ve read through Phil´s posts again, and there is a HELL of a lot in there about licencing, which we now know was not an issue... is this not a fact?

Anyway, personally I´m not too bothered who was responsible for this situation, all I´m bothered about is that TBL gets made... and un-defended allogations that DP are all bad is not helping that goal...

Until we know if he has an equity stake, I don't see how that calms the waters. Devil's advocate: so let's say he does find something. Then what? How is he going the force DP to correct it. Don't forget, it was phil's assertion that it was two against one. He was out voted. I'm not sure, given the information we have, how this addition changes anything on that front. Time will tell. Until we are told Phil's interest in the company has been dissolved that issue is still hanging out there.

Matt, when mine comes you can come play it. I am sticking with this till the end.

Definitely agree, that's big a positive step.

I would love to, thanks for the offer. I sincerely hope everyone receives their game and it's the best machine ever created.

Oh, go on then... I´ll let you speak, but only because it´s you

Well then address those specific negative comments towards DP. Defend them against what is actually being said. Made up motives doesn't "Balance" things, it just comes across as juvenile.

I just don't understand this. What do motivations have to do with anything? Most people aren't questioning DP's motives, they are talking about their actions, asking questions and expressing their opinion that those questions have been inadequately answered.

I agree with the question, but I can think of no reason why that would justify leaving the funds in Phil's control and suggesting he keep it in his control a month after he publicly quit. If I had to guess a motive, I would give them the benefit of the doubt and jsut say that they were all friends and jsut wanted everything to work out, but that doesn't mean I think it was a wise business move with customer's money. If anything, your theory that Phil mucked everything up makes me think it was an even worse business move not to get it away form him sooner. But my point is that the Why doesn't really matter, we can't judge people's unknowable motivations only their actual actions.

Phil said a lot about his view on how they were treating the license restrictions over the course of the entire development cycle. He then stated that he thought that their current actions (taking a game to shows before they reached the appropriate approval state) was jeopardizing the license. EVERYTHING HE SAID about the license can be reasonably assumed to be his honest opinion of where it stood based on his interpretation of the restrictions. Roger Sharpe disagreed with his interpretation of where the license, AND THAT IS FINE. It doesn't mean that he was lying, it most likely means that it was a difference of professional opinion. But fine, go with your theory that he was just out to sabatoge them. Well that didn't work in regards to the license because their replacement of Phil with Roger Sharpe in that department is viewed as an upgrade by virtually everyone. Most people who have been paying attention think the license is being managed now by an excellent professional with a stellar reputation. It's a non issue now, but you keep bringing it up to support your theories of Bad Phil motives.

The problem is you aren't addressing any of the problems people actually have with DP. Find someone doing what you are doing, making up wild allegations about DP's motives, and I will be right there with you calling that ridiculous. But if you have specific problems with the issues we are raising about their business practices that we have witnessed during and in response to this crisis, then talk about those. Defend their actions, don't make up bullshit motives to assign blame.

I have been addressing specific negative comments throughout a lot of these 52 pages... a lot of which were juvenile... an opposing juvenile speculation is a fair balance I believe...

This entire thread is a result of whatever motivatioins motivated Phil to do what he did, so I´d say motivations are quite relevant here...

One possibility is that DP wanted him to put something right that they knew he was the best person for to do it... With insight, it´s definitely debatable if this was the right move of course.

I´m not sure I said he was lying, merely possibly using it as an excuse to want out... And I don´t think he was out to sabatage them at all, just as a way to push them harder to cut him loose. He has clearly achieved this.

The point is that I don´t want anyone to have problems with DP, I want things to go smoothly (believe it or not). I want to alleviate problems... I might not be going about it the right way though, I don´t know... All I know is that people got in because they want the game, and I´m on this boat... and I´m staying on it... I´m not a businessman, I´m a pinball fan... Maybe youŕe right and I should STFU...

.

I don't think anyone should STFU, but I do think we should keep it relevant to what matters. I agree that there has been a lot of juvenile stuff on these forums like any other, but I disagree that the correct response is more of the same.

In the middle of the crisis, people were getting info on the fly, and of course it is tempting to speculate. Lots did on both sides as we were slowly getting a clearer picture of what was going on. But it's been 2 weeks since the airing of grievances, we now have plenty of actual facts to assess, and it seems counter productive to keep playing the blame game still.

I think most people in this forum want DP to succeed. I think they are making good progress in how they are adjusting their response. Some things were flawless, like the immediate hiring of Roger Sharpe. Others I think they still need to improve on. It's good that they have defenders as well as critics, and they need to listen to both as long as it is constructive. I hope I have been constructive with my airing of concerns at least.

I want all new pinball manufacturers to succeed including DP but I want them to do it off their own bat and quit asking hobbyists and collectors for start up funds/ pre orders etc to get companies or projects up and running.

Sometimes it´s the only way to do it... getting loans and other funding might not cut it to go into production, especially if expensive licencing needs are part of the deal... DP did at least get to the prototype stage off their own bat from what I understand...

Sometimes you have to balance like with like you know...

I could be wrong but I don't know of any other business that does this start up/ pre order thing before actually opening it's doors with product on the shelves/ showroom floor.
Regardless, I hope TBL gets made, released and is a killer game.

double post...sorry.

Everything on kickstarter.

But anyways I think everyone has made their decision by now so just have to see what happens. My predictions are that TBL is fine, but it slows their plans down some with having ~50% less pre orders than before, not as much cash flow to grease wheels to keep things on schedule.

I just read a few pages to get caught up while on the shitter. At first I was like, OMG they added an "achiever" plaque like a pacifier to the pre-order people - look now it's an LE! Stay in now and send us your next payment or you'll miss out. Just crazy. Do you pre-order owners really care that much about a rug, chrome and plaque? I almost feel like these pinball companies are treating collectors like little kids. Any mix up or missed deliverable, how about another cookie to settle down that tantrum - I mean plaque.

I will say, I do like that DP sent out a communications including clarification on the license, music and John Goodman. Only bummer is still working out DP USA refunds and FAQ (while great idea) did not address what if I want to wait before sending in next payment past Jan 1st until you get more answers for us?

Step in right direction, but plaque is just too funny.

I think most of us took the update for what it was and the plaque a touch to add collectability. Was not asked for or expected and it certainly cost me less than a stern LE plaque

lol

That's two threads in a row I LOLed in. This and Stretch saying bank it with Kiss- "good thing the bank was closed yesterday"! LOL!

With all due respect Hwawonyu, if I remember right you were one of the most vocal guys in the WOZ threads. When someone else would make this exact point you were quick to reply your friend had one on order. It's seems like this might be the wrong point for you to try to make. As far as sh!t talk, this thread is tame compared to every single WOZ thread (before the LE's were delivered).

hey, if these two guys tell me they have friends in on this talking to them daily about it and that is why they are in here on all these pages keeping this going I am sold on their reasoning. Like I said what's the buy in?
Additionally we stopped this silly banter this afternoon. Nice of you to re hash.
Plus again I stand by folks who buy new games vs those that don't in new game threads. Again not good or bad but why are folks that don't buy from any of the newer game companies so involved in these threads? How about you. What game are you in on?

When I got my refund from paypal I sat in the sidelines and read many of these posts.
I love the game, love what DP is doing with this project but in good conscience I can't risk the money. Not to mention the game isn't going to be much deeper in the rules as it is I was told at expo. The lower bowling alley, Jesus quotes and movie quotes will carry it so far.

I took the money and got a Judge Dredd and Flintstones. At least I get a bowling alley and Goodman with that

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I got my WOZ 75th in October. Not sure when TH will be here, but I ordered it when it was announced. I'm really not sure how that's relevant though. I'm just a spectator here, but how can anyone reading this not compare it to the JJP threads?

Congrats! See I understand someone who rides one roller coaster following another. To me predator seems more like Jjp in the manner of waiting for games to ship. TBL is not due to start production until summer.
Buy hey if ga,es are late come fall I promise to be twice the dick I ever was about woz dates. And that's hard to do but I am one of the only folks capable of being that dickish.

Lol. Sorry, didn't mean to single you out. Catching up, I just quoted as I read. I should have read to the end of the thread first.

Yeah they need to get with it and address the last part of your post. I sent an email a couple days ago and received no response. The fact of the matter is because of Phil sending me an unauthorized refund (thanks Phil, sincerely) the funds are still about 2 weeks out to hit my account so I was forced into a position of not being able to be completely paid up on the preorder until a couple weeks from now. Do I lose my place in line? If I decide to stay in do I now have to pay 9k instead of 8500 and also lose out on the preorder bonuses? Maybe this is a blessing and I should stay out? Why can't DP come to pinside and have a Q and A with it's customers and figure out a new preorder model and answer the concerns of the people that are investing in them?

The only benefit of the preorder for me is the $500 savings and if I have to pay 9k I more than likely will never own TBL. You have to draw a money line somewhere. I'm guessing this post will fall on deaf ears and I'll be sitting here scratching my head wondering if DP will ever answer our concerns.

So the code is very near completion from the version that was at expo? If this is true I wasn't that impressed with the code in the video I saw.

It was pre-alpha or about as Stern ships new games

I don't believe that's accurate. DP went out of their way to be sure everyone knew the games at expo we pre-alpha. I highly doubt the code at expo is anywhere near complete.

No the code is nowhere near done from what I have been told (it's pre apha code)
As for you missing the payment deadline, I got an answer to that a few days ago from Barry. You and I are in a similar situations so feel free to PM me and I will share th email Barry sent me on the subject.

No.
They said they'd honor the 8500 + bonus.
That's a question only you can answer.
My guess is that they would love to but until they can get the Phil thing figured out and guarantee every thing 100% they have to tread carefully. The emails they sent and from talking with them I'm sure they are trying very hard to get it figured out.

That's what I figured also but the post I quoted from mnpinball threw me for a loop unless I misunderstood him.

Can someone post a link to phil's resignation post, I am doing some research, and could not find it..
thanks.

Link to the initial resignation thread. Not started by Phil, but he does respond around page 4
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/uh-oh-phil-leaving-dp

You can scroll through the first half of this current thread to see Phil's thoughts on the whole situation. As for his resignation he sent an email to VIP's Nov 1.

Email Pasted below.

Welp, that about does her, wraps her all up.

To the VIPs,

As of November 1, I have decided to part ways with Dutch Pinball. I made this decision for for personal reasons, and not because of health issues.

As many of you know, I have been a professor of Marketing and a Marketing Consultant for the majority of my adult life, working in the US Military, with the Swiss Government and for many for profit companies and not-for-profit organizations. But the hardest, most creative, and probably the most fucked up job has been here, with you.

You pushed me to set the bar high, but your encouraging words and emails of support after each campaign made the challenge that much more rewarding.

Thank you.
.

And just remember that I was a good bowler,
and a good man. I was. . .

I was one of you.

No I never said to base it on pre alpha expo code.

I'm saying the game isn't going to be super deep (based on people that directly talked with Barry ) So I just can't justify the money on visual bling and Jesus, Goodman, Dude quotes to carry it if the game gets old quick. That's a chunk of change to listen to a soundtrack of music.

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_{Post edited by Mr68: Posting during Happy Hour}