(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 51 of 77.
#2501 4 years ago

Just paid the fifth payment.

#2502 4 years ago
Quoted from wellarmed:

Just paid the fifth payment.

Me too.

#2503 4 years ago

I just submitted payment number 5 as well.

#2504 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

The only thing making DP seem like an unstable and risky company are Phil´s actions, and the panic that that caused via Pinside. The more people that bail out because of that, the more chance there is that DP and the TBL project will fail. People who pre-ordered did so because they don´t want TBL to fail, they want TBL to play! Trying to persuade people to get out/stay out will only increase the chance of failure... The people who showed their support to DP by pre-ordering should, I suggest, continue that support, they need it more than ever now!! I´m not staying in so I can hold my head high and say I didn´t fail them in their hour of need, I´m staying in bacause I want this game... getting out if you want the game will reduce the chance of getting the game... People who really want it should stick together in their support, and we will all see this game in our gamesrooms.
I´m glad DP at least did something to reward those that stay in/get back in... there is an increased risk now, and with any risk, there should be a reward... sure, the plaque isn´t a massive reward, but it´s something... I hope it encourages some people to get back on board! DP really need to issue a deadline for doing so, or refunded people will understandably sit tight... I know I´l be proud to have that plaque on my game, it will remind me of how I stayed on board through these troubled waters and will give me the feeling that I was part of the reason the game got made at all
That plaque sure will have a story behind it!

Not true, the reason Phil did that, from what I gather from the evidence in this thread, was to publically distance himself from DP after so much non communication and non action regarding what appears to be several important issues. That leads me to believe that DP wasn't messed up because of what Phil did, rather that it just came to light because of it.

#2505 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Not true, the reason Phil did that, from what I gather from the evidence in this thread, was to publically distance himself from DP after so much non communication and non action regarding what appears to be several important issues. That leads me to believe that DP wasn't messed up because of what Phil did, rather that it just came to light because of it.

And that DPs recent laudable actions of hiring a CPA versed in international accounting as well as a well-known pinball licensing attorney seem to be a direct result of Phil's (admittedly maverick) actions.

#2506 4 years ago

I honestly think it's time to stop talking about Phil.

It really doesn't matter why he did it. Or if he was lying, or in the wrong, or anything else.

It happened. There's no taking it back.

What's important now is how the company moves forward. I hope they rally and make an awesome game, I still believe it's a great title.

Shit happens. If you want to be a big boy company that sells $9k products then you've gotta figure out how to roll with the punches.

Best of luck to Dutch Pinball. My advice, if you care, is what I've tried to tell you all along: communicate more. Take the time. Keep people involved. It's how you'll build trust and confidence back. Well that and stop sending out vague messages about money. Either you're true to your word and can refund people, or you're not.

Thanks for the t-shirt. I'm gonna keep it in my drawer for now. But my honest hope for 2015 is that I'll feel like taking it out and wearing it. I wouldn't mind playing your game some more too!

-10
#2507 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Not true, the reason Phil did that, from what I gather from the evidence in this thread, was to publically distance himself from DP after so much non communication and non action regarding what appears to be several important issues. That leads me to believe that DP wasn't messed up because of what Phil did, rather that it just came to light because of it.

I´m sure that´s what Phil wants you and everyone else to believe... My take on it is that Phil made some screw up that was going to cause problems to him (and possibly his family) and he wanted out... DP didn´t let him out because they wanted him to sort out the mess, so he created this mess in the hope that DP would finally let him go because they could see he was damaging business... One of Phil´s stated reasons for wanting out was the licencing issues, but we have since found out that there are no real issues here... One post here even said Phil should get credit for making the licencing go as smoothly as Roger said it was!! So his stated reasons for wanting out are evaporating... One of the panics he created was that TBL was screwed from the licence side, we now see it isn´t and wasn´t... What else will we find out isn´t and wasn´t as Phil said...

Anyway, whatever the reasons for Phil doing what he did, we are where we are... I wish Phil the best of luck in fighting his illness, and I wish DP luck in sorting the mess out and restoring people´s confidence in them!

Quoted from Aurich:

I honestly think it's time to stop talking about Phil.

I agree, and I wouldn´t keep bringing him up, but since this entire thread and situation is a direct result of his actions, it´s hard for his name not to keep cropping up... My main reason for posting here is to support DP and their efforts to make TBL... why, because I don´t want my money back, I want a game to play.

#2508 4 years ago

I am still in. Sure, I was a bit nervous, but I want to play the game. I come from a culture that loves startups and underdogs, so I don't expect a startup to work like a decades old monopoly.

I really like the new "Achiever Edition" that the people who stay in will get. When this all blows over, those machines will serve to mark a place in history, where Pinball can enjoy another golden age. This golden age will be marked by some new vendors, a lot of new technology, and a ton of fun. In 20 years (as I look at my GNR machine) the Achiever Edition will start conversations about this moment in the history of the machines we love.

#2509 4 years ago
Quoted from Draegermeister:

I really like the new "Achiever Edition" that the people who stay in will get. When this all blows over, those machines will serve to mark a place in history, where Pinball can enjoy another golden age. This golden age will be marked by some new vendors, a lot of new technology, and a ton of fun. In 20 years (as I look at my GNR machine) the Achiever Edition will start conversations about this moment in the history of the machines we love.

I hope I´m still around in 20 years to be part of those converstations!

#2510 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

My take on it is that Phil made some screw up that was going to cause problems to him (and possibly his family) and he wanted out... DP didn´t let him out because they wanted him to sort out the mess, so he created this mess in the hope that DP would finally let him go because they could see he was damaging business

So your take is essentially "I'm going to completely make shit up"?

#2511 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I´m sure that´s what Phil wants you and everyone else to believe... My take on it is that Phil made some screw up that was going to cause problems to him (and possibly his family) and he wanted out... DP didn´t let him out because they wanted him to sort out the mess, so he created this mess in the hope that DP would finally let him go because they could see he was damaging business... One of Phil´s stated reasons for wanting out was the licencing issues, but we have since found out that there are no real issues here... One post here even said Phil should get credit for making the licencing go as smoothly as Roger said it was!! So his stated reasons for wanting out are evaporating... One of the panics he created was that TBL was screwed from the licence side, we now see it isn´t and wasn´t... What else will we find out isn´t and wasn´t as Phil said...
Anyway, whatever the reasons for Phil doing what he did, we are where we are... I wish Phil the best of luck in fighting his illness, and I wish DP luck in sorting the mess out and restoring people´s confidence in them!

I agree, and I wouldn´t keep bringing him up, but since this entire thread and situation is a direct result of his actions, it´s hard for his name not to keep cropping up... My main reason for posting here is to support DP and their efforts to make TBL... why, because I don´t want my money back, I want a game to play.

We can suppose all day long, but with the evidence in this thread I disagree with you. I don't have money in, I suppose if I did, or had inside information, or had some sort of pride in my fellow countrymen making a game I'd stand behind them too.

We shall see.

#2512 4 years ago

I read all Phil's posts today.

I do not believe that licensing problems was the reason for him wanting out.

Rather it seems that their partnership turned into a two against one thing, with the others going against his wishes and -according to him- lying.

Now going public and initiating refonds was a consequence of DP not respecting his wish to get out.

-2
#2513 4 years ago
Quoted from soren:

I do not believe that licensing problems was the reason for him wanting out.

Quoted from soren:

Now going public and initiating refonds was a consequence of DP not respecting his wish to get out.

I also believe that licencing wasn´t the reason... so what was the reason for him wanting out so bad do you think? and why didn´t DP want to let him go?

One answer is that DP were bad and Phil was scared of that badness (doesn´t explain why DP didn´t let him go though), the other is that Phil did something wrong and DP wanted him to sort it out instead of run away... If Phil was the only one talking, which story would you hear?

Quoted from sammiesguys:

So your take is essentially "I'm going to completely make shit up"?

Only stuff that´s a viable way of understanding this mess... If I just wanted out of a company, and I hadn´t made a mess of something, why would my employer not just let me go? And if it was all very innocent and I wasn´t worrying about some deep shit I was rasponsible for, I can´t imagine I´d be inclined to cause a massive panic that would harm the company as a way to try and force them to cut me free... it just doesn´t make a lot of sense to me unless there´s an explanation that we haven´t heard...

11
#2514 4 years ago
Quoted from Draegermeister:

I am still in. Sure, I was a bit nervous, but I want to play the game. I come from a culture that loves startups and underdogs, so I don't expect a startup to work like a decades old Monopoly.
I really like the new "Achiever Edition" that the people who stay in will get. When this all blows over, those machines will serve to mark a place in history, where Pinball can enjoy another golden age. This golden age will be marked by some new vendors, a lot of new technology, and a ton of fun. In 20 years (as I look at my GNR machine) the Achiever Edition will start conversations about this moment in the history of the machines we love.

I'm still in like Flynn. Just made my latest payment. I know of at least 3 shiny new TBL's that are destined for the Seattle area!

God bless Dutch Pinball and all those who will be providing creative new games in 2015!

Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!

11
#2515 4 years ago

Some new shit has come to light. I've decided that fuck it dude. I'm in. Just made next payment.

-1
#2516 4 years ago
Quoted from ozno:

Some new shit has come to light. I've decided that fuck it dude. I'm in. Just made next payment.

Well done dude!! Welcome to the achievers club!! Good to have you on board!

What new shit has come to light by the way? (or were you just grabbing a Dude line?).

#2517 4 years ago

Made my payment. Full steam ahead!

#2518 4 years ago

When and if DP get a Australian distributor and ship them here I will buy one.

#2519 4 years ago

I decided to send back my fourth payment and sent in my fifth today.

Time to move on from this drama and hope for the best.

#2520 4 years ago

I do not understand 5th payment I am seeing here. My 3rd payment is due today and 4 payments total. Am I missing something?

#2521 4 years ago

There is 4 payments as far as I can see. Paid up on 3.
4th Payment due April 1st (April Fools Day) for all you conspiracy theorists .

#2522 4 years ago

Talked to Barry and I think they will sort it out.

#2523 4 years ago
Quoted from foxtj24:

I do not understand 5th payment I am seeing here. My 3rd payment is due today and 4 payments total. Am I missing something?

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 3.05.25 PM.png
#2525 4 years ago

You preordered much later then I did.

#2526 4 years ago

I'm confused, is it the Achievers edition or the HBC edition?

#2527 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I also believe that licencing wasn´t the reason... so what was the reason for him wanting out so bad do you think? and why didn´t DP want to let him go?

Well. I guess a disrespected partnership will be more than enough. Will it not? I do not think it is necessary to look for any deeper explaination than that. Or suspect that there is something worse or bigger hidden under the rug.

Seems to me that Phil was the business and finance-guy of DP. Where as the other two are the product-team. Which led to a conflict of interest and priorities and to people talking behind others. And people making decisions they knew was against the wishes of others.

As to why they did not let him loose of any responsabillity. Good question. Maybe they were too scared to dive into US business and wanted an experienced consultant or partner. Which took some time to settle. More time than Phil felt he needed to wait.

On top of not letting him loose, they developed an unhealthy communication and relation with him. Ignoring inquiries and setting up an alternative Paypal-account under Phils name (phil@ e-mail they took control over). This is bad! Who wouldn't scream it out loud all over the place if somebody was doing business impersonating them.

#2528 4 years ago
Quoted from Wamprat:

When and if DP get a Australian distributor and ship them here I will buy one.

Talk to sleazy, dan and shalhoub. They're makng things happen in aus ATM.

#2529 4 years ago
Quoted from FatAussieBogan:

Talk to sleazy, dan and shalhoub. They're makng things happen in aus ATM.

Thanks for that, I will wait until they make it official and get the games in the country.
I am in no rush.

#2530 4 years ago
Quoted from ozno:

Talked to Barry and I think they will sort it out.

Oh, I'm sure they told you exactly what you wanted to hear, why wouldn't they, it wouldn't make sense to do otherwise when your going to submit another payment based upon the conversation.

#2531 4 years ago
Quoted from soren:

On top of not letting him loose, they developed an unhealthy communication and relation with him. Ignoring inquiries and setting up an alternative Paypal-account under Phils name (phil@ e-mail they took control over). This is bad! Who wouldn't scream it out loud all over the place if somebody was doing business impersonating them.

I forgot about that one!
I would have become berserk had they done that to me.

-6
#2532 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

I forgot about that one! I would have become berserk had they done that to me.

Not only did you forget about it, I think you also forgot in what order these events unfolded... My recollection is that they did that AFTER he had already gone berserk... let´s stick to the chronology of events if we´re going to start using them to point the finger

Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Oh, I'm sure they told you exactly what you wanted to hear, why wouldn't they, it wouldn't make sense to do otherwise when your going to submit another payment based upon the conversation.

Let me guess... DP do something right and you see it as them trying to fool us... they do something wrong and... they did something wrong... In your eyes DP simply can´t do anything right, wouldn´t you say?

#2533 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Not only did you forget about it, I think you also forgot in what order these events unfolded... My recollection is that they did that AFTER he had already gone berserk... let´s stick to the chronology of events if we´re going to start using them to point the finger

Let me guess... DP do something right and you see it as them trying to fool us... they do something wrong and... they did something wrong... In your eyes DP simply can´t do anything right, wouldn´t you say?

No, I wouldn't say that at all. I think they've been very secretive and don't think that's exactly a good idea right now. It's their choice of course, but until I see something I'll be skeptical. I hope it all works out, I do, more machines, more pinball is better for everyone. It just still has a film of used car sales over it.

#2534 4 years ago
Quoted from leisure:

Screen Shot 2015-01-01 at 3.05.2... 114 KB

Perhaps something prophetic about the final payment due on April 1st...

11
#2535 4 years ago

Pinballslave, I get that you really see DP as the victims and Phil as the evil instigator that is entirely to blame for this whole situation, but I don't think you are helping DP at all. You keep making up motives that reinforce your preconceived narrative that Phil is the evil one here, but those scenarios don't make sense to most of the people who have read everything Phil said, looked at the actual evidence he presented, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, saw how DP was set up as a business and how they reacted to the crisis.

Like Aurich said, Phil did what he did, all the info is out there for people to judge, as well as their reaction to the crisis. If lots of enthusiastic TBL fans look at this company, see that they had a major partner quit nov 1., see that he still had control of a large portion of the money a month later, see that on Dec. 3rd they kept insisting that this obviously disgruntled partner just unquit and keep managing the US company and funds and pay the bills, then it is completely understandable for them to start questioning the wisdom of their business practices. If they request refunds because their money absolutely appears to be in jeopardy with the current state of the split company, and the first response is "We'll forward your request to the other guy, good luck", it's understandable for the customers to be pissed at DP for making their corporate infighting the customer's problem to resolve. If their next response, while finally taking ownership of their corporate infighting, is holding firm to payment deadlines while the US funds are STILL not in their possession and many questions are still outstanding, people are justified in calling bullshit.

The difference between the previous paragraph and most of the bullshit you spew in your crusade to convince everyone that Phil is evil is that the above is based on factual evidence that exists in the verifiable public record, and has nothing to do with wild speculation. Your theories about Phil's true motives are irrelevant and quite frankly as bad as the worst speculation about the state of the license (much of which misread what Phil actually said). In your attempt to stick up for your friends, you are making up shit about a guy who is battling stage 4 cancer with NOTHING to back it up.

And for the record, the only person who seems to keep bringing up the licensing issues is you with your straw man arguments. You were absolutely right that people were blowing things out of proportion in the heat of the crisis, but DP, in one of their very good business moves that they deserve credit for, promptly addressed those issues by hiring one of the best in the business to address it. As far as I can tell, everyone is calm about the licensing issues now, except the strawmen in your arguments.

Just please, keep defending DP, but stick to facts. You should be rewarded for sticking with them throughout everything, as should others, but you need to drop the strawman arguments and for christ-sake, keep statements about a stage 4 cancer victim factual, and better yet, drop the whole crusade entirely because nobody cares about blame anymore. Right now the issue is that the company says it is working towards resolutions, but STILL has a lot of unanswered questions and STILL doesn't have control of the money. Once they resolve the outstanding problems with the company, they then have to work on rebuilding the trust they lost with how they managed this crisis.

Again, blame is for children. This is adults dealing with $9000 (and $2000) pre-paid products. The crisis happened. It exposed legitimate questions about liquidity and company leadership. While they adequately answered the licensing issues, many feel their response to those other questions thus far have been inadequate. The customers who have those questions are not the enemy. Opinions are fine, facts are better, speculation is worthless.

#2536 4 years ago

How many people posting shite here are in or even waiting for a refund or just posting on a thread they have zero interest in. Fn amazing to me!

#2537 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

... One of Phil´s stated reasons for wanting out was the licencing issues, but we have since found out that there are no real issues here...

No - it is simply that things were not fatal to the project and the licensing arrangement is still viable. That does not mean the other stuff didn't happen or that it was necessarily legit - it just means they have been able to keep it from stopping the project

13
#2538 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

How many people posting shite here are in or even waiting for a refund or just posting on a thread they have zero interest in. Fn amazing to me!

I post here because I'm interested in it, I post in a lot of threads as a discussion, like forums are for. What I don't understand are posts like yours, that provide absolutely zero insight to the discussion at hand.

-6
#2539 4 years ago

What you call posting I call a non buyer mucking up a thread for folks involved in this project.
The value of my post is that we involved would love to discuss this but have to sift through your stuff.
Look I get it we are all involved blah blah blah. But seriously I may make a comment but In don't park my butt in Jpops thread or the Hobbit etc if I am not a buyer. And jeez I even had money on Jpop.
It just gets tired to keep hearing non buyers harp on and on about what they know or don't even participate in but are experts dying to share.

#2540 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

What you call posting I call a non buyer mucking up a thread for folks involved in this project.

What, I can't have a discussion on the business problems, personal interactions etc? Mucking it up how, by discussing stuff that has already been posted? I'm not making stuff up, unlike some of the people who are anti-Phil. I'm not anti anything, I'm talking about the evidence posted here, that's all.

-11
#2541 4 years ago

What is the last new game you bought? How are you involved in new pinball except for these helpful thoughts of yours?

#2542 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

What is the last new game you bought? How are you involved in new pinball except for these helpful thoughts of yours?

Again with the Appeal to Authority fallacy. Someone petition DP to make an secret owners only club forum so that Hwawonyu won't ever have to listen to unworthy opinions.

-6
#2543 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

Again with the Appeal to Authority fallacy. Someone petition DP to make an secret owners only club forum so that Hwawonyu won't ever have to listen to unworthy opinions.

Big difference than a few opinions and you two going on and on. Again, why? You know you are not buying it. So what is it. Some bizarre jealousy, envy or just wish you could play with the big kids?
I get folks that are thinking of buying or have bought lots of other new games and wonder about the model. But flat out non buyers?? Its freaking weird man.

#2544 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Big difference than a few opinions and you two going on and on. Again, why? You know you are not buying it. So what is it. Some bizarre jealousy, envy or just wish you could play with the big kids? Its freaking weird man.

Ah, the "You're just Jealous" argument as well, stated 3 different ways no less. I will instead petition my daughter's elementary school to create a forum for you. It can be as exclusive as you want.

#2545 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

What is the last new game you bought? How are you involved in new pinball except for these helpful thoughts of yours?

Lol, thanks for the laugh. Your on a good start for the 2015 list.

#2546 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Big difference than a few opinions and you two going on and on. Again, why? You know you are not buying it. So what is it. Some bizarre jealousy, envy or just wish you could play with the big kids?
I get folks that are thinking of buying or have bought lots of other new games and wonder about the model. But flat out non buyers?? Its freaking weird man.

It's freaking weird that you want some sort of good ole boys club where you can't comment unless you meet some type of status level. That's really weird...besides, most of the thread isn't actually about the game. It's about business etc.

There is a solution though, just block me, instead of limiting my speech just don't look at it...easy. Or, drain the entire thread.

-4
#2547 4 years ago

Again, is it a comment or very involved in stuff you are not part of and wont be...

Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

It's freaking weird that you want some sort of good ole boys club where you can't comment unless you meet some type of status level. That's really weird...

No status level. Participatory! I want to talk to folks involved. I dont jump on a Star Trek Game thread and talk crap if I dont own one and wont be.

My point is its more than a comment. You two going on and on and you are not involved so why come on here and cause trouble. Fact!

Either way at least folks can now see you are commenting with no involvement.

18
#2548 4 years ago

Silver and Rasmussen are two of the only people making sense in this thread. Their level headed assessments are much appreciated; I like to read opinions that parse out all sides of this. I don't want to hear from the "emotional ties to DP" guys, and I don't want to hear from the guys who view the TBL situation as yet another opportunity to prattle on about how little the five thousand dollars means to them. If DP can't scrounge together any answer regarding where my deposit is (which I requested PRIOR to the Phil debacle, I'll reiterate) then I for one want very much to see Silver and Rasmussen asking these questions bc frankly I'm a little too pissed off to ask myself in a productive manner.

#2549 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Again, is it a comment or very involved in stuff you are not part of and wont be...

No status level. Participatory! I want to talk to folks involved. I dont jump on a Star Trek Game thread and talk crap if I dont own one and wont be.
My point is its more than a comment. You two going on and on and you are not involved so why come on here and cause trouble. Fact!
Either way at least folks can now see you are commenting with no involvement.

Cause trouble? How so? And fwiw, you didn't reveal anything, I've already said I don't have any skin in the game, quite some time ago I believe. Anyway, personally attacking someone for having different views than you is pretty weird man.

#2550 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

Again with the Appeal to Authority fallacy. Someone petition DP to make an secret owners only club forum so that Hwawonyu won't ever have to listen to unworthy opinions.

They have a public forum…it's not private anyone can join

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