(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 50 of 77.
#2451 5 years ago

Oh cool, well can someone tell me WTF "Reversal Canceled" means on my payments screen cause I have no f-in clue. Do I get a plaque for not knowing if I have paid, I sure as shit don't have a refund and surer than shit not going to pay twice. Thanks for clearing up absolutely nothing.

#2452 5 years ago

One possibility is Phil will not release funds until DP completes all the paperwork removing him from the company.

Another possibility is DPUSA is empty. Phil claims he paid bills with his credit cards and I'm guessing he has taken that money from DPUSA.

But in any case it IS clear that DP isn't brimming with cash. If they were, they would have issued a statement saying that our deposits are being honored. They still refuse to do that. To me, that means that if they can't get that money back, it will destroy the company and they will attempt to disconnect from DPUSA.

The lack of detail in the update is disappointing, but I have some hope. I'm going to give them two weeks before I panic.

#2453 5 years ago

I would consider that email a "JPOP Reveal" - lots of sizzle, no steak.

#2454 5 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

Oh cool, well can someone tell me WTF "Reversal Canceled" means on my payments screen cause I have no f-in clue. Do I get a plaque for not knowing if I have paid, I sure as shit don't have a refund and surer than shit not going to pay twice. Thanks for clearing up absolutely nothing.

Let me say one positive thing is right after this newsletter I e-mailed them back asking what was going on with my payment status' and Barry did e-mail me back almost immediately saying they were looking into it and weren't quite sure what the status I had was. At least it was some progress.

#2455 5 years ago

Today's update isn't terrible. It's what they should have said instead of the last update. But if you're already worried about their financial stability, it makes them look desperate. So:

If you were already confident about DP: The update is great.

If you believe in them and want the machine made, but are worried they might collapse from a liquidity crisis: The update falls short, and maybe stokes the flames a little.

#2456 5 years ago

Appreciate the update but still don't have answers concerning the US account and when it will be back in DP's hands. I wrote Barry this email, voicing my concerns:
-----------
Hi Barry - got the newsletter today, thanks for the update.

Just want to clarify my concerns.

Even though I've asked for a refund, technically I'd still like to be in on the project...but, like many - my concern is the "Phil tainted US Paypal account". I want to make sure my money is safely out of there & everything is squared away with you guys before getting back in or making further payments. I hope if I do this, I'm still considered an original VIP supporter. When is the US Paypal account likely to be back in your control and out of Phil's hands?
-----------

#2457 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Let me summarize:

pockets1.jpg 7 KB

Pretty much this. They did nothing to address the liquidity claims. This was weird too:

"Q: The 1/1 deadline for my next payment is due. Can I just pay this installment, or should I wait?
A: You can use the payment status page to pay your next installment. It will come in to our new account. We won't delete your initial order without sending you a remind"

In other words, no you can't wait. If you forget, we'll send you an email reminder and then cancel your order and you go to the back of the rapidly growing refund line.

#2458 5 years ago
Quoted from fattrain:

Took all the songs from the email and made a 20 song YouTube playlist for people to jam out to if they so chose
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFouy-ekjueMrC3tOLCosbwjAdlUaIbCl

Man, I forgot how incredibly cool that title sequence is!

#2459 5 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

Oh cool, well can someone tell me WTF "Reversal Canceled" means on my payments screen cause I have no f-in clue. Do I get a plaque for not knowing if I have paid, I sure as shit don't have a refund and surer than shit not going to pay twice. Thanks for clearing up absolutely nothing.

I just want my BOP kit, man.

sad-little-boy.jpg
#2460 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I want to make sure my money is safely out of there &
-----------

These weren't deposits. Your money has been funding development. A portion of your money has been used to pay for development (and to issue refunds). Your money isn't "safely" anywhere.

#2461 5 years ago

Content of the newsletter aside, I am surprised by the grammar errors in it. I would assume that at least a couple of lawyers were in on drafting that puppy up. Maybe Linoel Hutz is their legal counsel?

#2462 5 years ago
Quoted from el_brio:

Pretty much this. They did nothing to address the liquidity claims.

To be fair to DP, I doubt they're truly out of money right now. But it is starting to look like they will be if they have to process all the refunds or if people stop sending payments. If so, delaying that discussion makes sense--for them.

You touched on the one thing that rankled me: There seems to be a calculated message that if you're scared about your investment, you're not an "Achiever" and they won't do anything to help you. Yet being concerned is completely justified at this point. Just empathizing with those that are worried would go a long way towards restoring their confidence. Treating them like losers does the opposite.

#2463 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballnut:

I just want my BOP kit, man.

sad-little-boy.jpg 18 KB

this should be happening in the next few weeks. There have been a few released for testing in the USA.

#2464 5 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

Today's update isn't terrible. It's what they should have said instead of the last update.

Yes. The last update was a form letter saying, "It's Phil's fault. We hope he honors your request." This is exactly the kind of language they should have used to take ownership of the internal corporate infighting, and make it their problem, not the customers'. Even if they didn't have a solution just yet, this was the path they needed to take from the beginning. But, better late than never. It really is a good sign for DP that they are now on the right track.

Quoted from brundaged:

You touched on the one thing that rankled me: There seems to be a calculated message that if you're scared about your investment, you're not an "Achiever" and they won't do anything to help you. Yet being concerned is completely justified at this point. Just empathizing with those that are worried would go a long way towards restoring their confidence. Treating them like losers does the opposite.

Exactly. To me the second half of the newsletter sounds like they have been listening too much to the True Believers™ on this thread and they have a warped sense of where they actually stand. Now is not the time to antagonize those who are legitimately spooked by their handling of this crisis or the crisis itself. There are still a lot of questions outstanding, and thus still pushing for 3rd installment right now seems tone deaf to those concerns.

I get that you want to reward those who never left, but drawing a line in the sand at this point seems foolish. The people who were staying in weren't going anywhere, and you could have always rewarded them later in a non-antagonizing way. I think the "Pay your 3rd installment or you aren't an achiever" tactic is far more likely to antagonize than to get people back on board.

Again, EVERYBODY want's them to succeed, but many need more convincing that their business management is in order before risking their pre-order money again. With the DP-USA funds still yet to be secured, and other liquidity questions still on the table, it's a bad time to be doubling down on that payment deadline. People WILL give them a pass when they miss their April shipping deadline, but they will be much less inclined to do so if they hold firm to this payment deadline in the middle of an unresolved crisis.

17
#2465 5 years ago

Only in pinball will people significantly risk their money for a $1 "plaque" ! I love it!!!!

Instead of "achiever" it should be called the "PT Barnum"

#2466 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Only in pinball will people significantly risk their money for a $1 "plaque" ! I love it!!!!
Instead of "achiever" it should be called the "PT Barnum"

Oh please.. Nobody is in or out based on that plaque.. Let's be real. Its just a token of appreciation for sticking it out and nothing more.

#2467 5 years ago

Thanks for posting the letter Fattrain, as I have not yet one. It addresses a number of concerns.

They mention again that Rodger is handling licensing AND that that they have hired a CPA, presumably for accounting and business management (would be nice to know his official role and whether he is an equity partner. I doubt an employee will have the pull necessary to be in control of the process otherwise). They are working towards controlling the the DP-USA situation but don't have a final solution yet, as refund requests are still outstanding. They also mention John Goodman will be on the translite, playfield and in feature clips and call outs. Finally, they state the project is proceeding and still targeted for Spring production. True - not all concerns have been addressed, but it is a start, and is a pretty good update.

Three primary questions are still being worked and may need to be resolved before funding starts flowing again into DP. 1) is my money safe? - people want to hear that DP is standing behind their orders and that if they paid in, that money is properly credited. 2) where's my refund? - confirmation that anyone requesting a refund will be granted one in a reasonable time frame (one month). 3) where's my BOP 2.0? - since US orders are set to ship soon, what is status of the current software.

These items need to be addressed before I would personally feel comfortable sending more money, but to others these concerns might not be a big deal. I sense that DP might prefer not getting into the weeds on the matter, and will chose instead to proceed with fewer pre-orders and to pick up regular orders during production. Who knows, people are crazy for this pin, and once it is production ready, will be happy to snap one up. Keep your heads up DP, some in Pinside are hoping for a messy crash and burn, but they are few in number, 95% of us are rooting for you. The theme itself and execution so far make this the pin to watch. Hoping to add one to my collection in Fall of 2015.

#2468 5 years ago

Thanks for the youtube playlist.

They really went overboard with the license songs on this one.

Only one I am missing is Moondog. One of the best on the soundtrack album, me thinks.

Still wondering if I should re-submit my money. Very tempted.

#2469 5 years ago

The important questions weren't answered, period.

#2470 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Only in pinball will people significantly risk their money for a $1 "plaque" ! I love it!!!!

Instead of "achiever" it should be called the "PT Barnum"

You are so wrong and completely out of line.

They will also do it for a special carpet and chrome trim.

#2471 5 years ago

Crap. Eagles made the list. At least it is a cover. Nice playlist fattrain!

Quoted from fattrain:

Took all the songs from the email and made a 20 song YouTube playlist for people to jam out to if they so chose
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFouy-ekjueMrC3tOLCosbwjAdlUaIbCl

#2472 5 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Dude, Phil is battling stage 4 cancer. This is not a power trip for him. He wants OUT!
There are several possible reasons that he's not refunding the money (e.g., the account may already be depleted, he may not know who the remaining funds belong to because he doesn't have the customer records, he may be under a temporary restraining order preventing him from taking further actions). No one knows right now except the current partners, but the DP management team can clear a lot of these issues up by communicating with their stakeholders. Hopefully that will occur sooner rather than later.

I really hope his health improves, truly. But that's no excuse for what he is doing.

#2473 5 years ago

This letter did nothing for me to alleviate the panic, I think it's crazy to ask for the next payment. That ship has sailed for me, if they wanted more people to stay in and also more to sign on then they would have had it be a half down deposit and no further payments till it shipped or in production. That's my opinion. Also the plaque is a joke, we need reassurance that everyone that asked for a refund will receive one and a time line to follow. There were questions I asked that went unanswered and that itself was enough for me to wait and not resubmit my payment. I received an unauthorized refund from Phil and that money won't go back to my account for a couple more weeks and if I wanted to stay in I'm forced out because of Dutch pinball. So for me it's safe to say I'm more than likely out for good. A rug, chrome and plaque is not worth the uncertainty.

#2474 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

A plaque doesn't sound like much of a carrot to me. Am I missing something?

DING DING DING! Give this man a prize.

I think overall a pretty condescending update.

Quoted from sd_tom:

Oh please.. Nobody is in or out based on that plaque.. Let's be real. Its just a token of appreciation for sticking it out and nothing more.

Respectfully disagree. One of the huge selling points/marketing points of this pin is that it would be unlimited. Personally, I wouldn't care, but there are people who will (and likely do).

#2475 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Only in pinball will people significantly risk their money for a $1 "plaque" ! I love it!!!!
Instead of "achiever" it should be called the "PT Barnum"

At the very least they should do a special topper or something that would eventually be collectable and cool.

#2476 5 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

Crap. Eagles made the list. At least one of them is a cover. Nice playlist fattrain!

#2477 5 years ago
Quoted from fattrain:

Unfortunately the last month of the year was not good. Phil decided to leave the company in a rather unusual way. We took several actions and we are happy to welcome Jeff Marchetti (CGMA, CPA) to help us restoring DP USA Inc.

You guys have glossed over the most important part of the whole F ing email.

You have a CPA, that has a fiduciary duty to everybody involved now, to get the accounting straightened out and headed in the right direction.

Researching this guy, he has over 25 years of experience and the "G" in CGMA stands for Global.

"Restoring DP USA" means just that. They and everybody else will have a full accounting of funds received and disbursed and be able to straighten all of this BS out.

If it were me, I would demand to know how much liquidity is left on hand as a % of deposits for production purposes before I put another dime in.

Why not wait until they get their own mess squared away before you start piling more dollars in so you can get the "achievers plaque"?

In any event, everybody should view this part as the biggest step to them getting it together.

#2478 5 years ago
Quoted from bemmett:

Oh cool, well can someone tell me WTF "Reversal Canceled" means on my payments screen cause I have no f-in clue. Do I get a plaque for not knowing if I have paid, I sure as shit don't have a refund and surer than shit not going to pay twice. Thanks for clearing up absolutely nothing.

If I were in your situation I would continue to ask for the refund. I just wouldn't trust the accounting at this stage. I.e., are you paid or not paid? Does DP think you got a refund? I'd just feel safer getting my full refund now, and would consider getting back in later when they get their shit together.

I.e., what Iceman says above.

#2479 5 years ago

They probably kept to the payment timeline to get a sense of the landscape.. If the news is bad (most people out, stay out), better to know that now and start to replan around that reality and start moving forward again. Its a gamble as I suppose a small % could of been able to be convinced to stay in given another month and maybe some additional evidence that DP USA has been resolved.. But not sure thats significant? By the poll.. Phil already cost them 50% of pre orders .. And with 20% on the fence, and 30% in. Guess its really about the 20%.. Does delaying the Jan payment really move the needle on the 20%? I dunno

#2480 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

"Restoring DP USA" means just that. They and everybody else will have a full accounting of funds received and disbursed and be able to straighten all of this BS out.

DP is a private company...why do you think "everybody else" will get a full accounting. The only thing people got with preorder was a statement of refund, not a commitment to full accounting. I agree that if they are well funded and were to provide a full financial accounting it would really help. Unless you can truly stomach the potential lose of your dollars, it is best to get your refund and buy later if they manage to produce the game.

#2481 5 years ago

Looks like I'll be moving up a few spots.

#2482 5 years ago
Quoted from DnDPins:

DP is a private company...why do you think "everybody else" will get a full accounting. The only thing people got with preorder was a statement of refund, not a commitment to full accounting. I agree that if they are well funded and were to provide a full financial accounting it would really help. Unless you can truly stomach the potential lose of your dollars, it is best to get your refund and buy later if they manage to produce the game.

I'm saying if it were me, I'd give everybody a full accounting after the numbers are tallied up to give people peace of mind that the assets are there, there is a responsible person in control of them, you'll get a prompt refund if asked for one going forward, etc.

That would generate a whole lot of goodwill going forward a lot more sales but I really doubt they will do it because it makes too much sense and this is pinball after all.

Yes, like myself, I would get the refund and buy later if they manage to produce the game. Somebody has to fill the "early achiever" boat.

The more transparency, full disclosure and constant communication you give to buyers/potential buyers, the more apt people are to stay in. I'm not holding my breath for that though, for any pinball maker.

#2483 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Looks like I'll be moving up a few spots.

This quote could come back to bite should things go south. Hopefully we will be watching the unboxing instead.

#2484 5 years ago

The Dutch are smart. They have survived in a country below sea level forever.

#2485 5 years ago

Really want to get a TBL pin.

But much more scared of losing thousands of dollars than losing a rug, a plaque, and chrome trim.

I don't think it was a bad update. Definitely some good things in there, like addressing the music/Goodman licensing, and bringing a reputable CPA on board.

But too many liquidity questions abound for me in the form of unfulfilled refund requests and BOP2 kits to be delivered (even though BOP is from a different entity than DP, some DP money, possibly entirely legitimately, is involved in that project, too.

I will most likely await substantial production before purchasing.

But I won't rule out giving substantial money beforehand to DP if BOP2 gets solved/clarified and requested refunds delivered as per DP's promises earlier. January first, though, is too early for me to throw my hard earned money back into this black box. I have too many nightmares of DP just disappearing one day with my money, not necessarily from dishonesty, but mismanagement. This email is a good start. But not "$6k-(or so)-by-January-1" good

#2486 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Looks like I'll be moving up a few spots.

+1

#2487 5 years ago

As long as DP has enough cash to start producing TBLs, all the people that pulled out will jump back in. Let's just pray they've got cash and enough business sense to make it. I just heard something in private that leads me to believe they will cure the DPUSA situation shortly. Personally I won't wait forever till the nuclear option is exercised.

#2488 5 years ago
Quoted from Nilroc:

Looks like I'll be moving up a few spots.

Well, that's possibly a mixed blessing.....

Kinda like getting bumped to first class...... on Malaysia Airlines....

#2489 5 years ago

Enough already..this is pinball for chrissakes. WTF!

#2490 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Well, that's possibly a mixed blessing.....
Kinda like getting bumped to first class...... on Malaysia Airlines....

Had a good laugh there.

#2491 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Getting out will save people thousands of dollars.

If people who got in wanted to get out to save thousands of dollars, why did they get in? Surely those people should not have got in and saved thousands of dollars at the beginning...??

Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Then DP should have come out and refuted it all with evidence. Now, I realize they don't have to, but I think it would be in their best interest.

Maybe the situation was very delicate, maybe Phil was getting himself into trouble from what he was saying... maybe DP didn´t want to put him further in whatever hole he had got himself into which caused him to make these public outbursts in the first place... the guy has serious health issues, so why would the nice guys at DP want to worsen that by starting a public battle... there´s also the legal side of these claims on a public forum to consider... All I´m saying is that with one side of the story only to consider, it´s a bit premature to base decisions to abandon the project...

I just find it hard to imagine that the only reason Phil wanted out so urgently was because of some concerns over licencing, and some possible other imperfect business practice... he did mention some tax stuff, and with the year end looming... maybe he messed something up on that side of things and realised he was facing a massive tax debt that could put his family at risk, and wanted out because of that, and was using these other issues as an excuse/smokecreen... maybe he thought that if he caused enough trouble to the business, DP would cut him lose and absolve him of the problem he´d caused...

All this bailing out based on this one guys claims is a shame for the progress of TBL...

Happy new year to all!! May we see TBLs in our homes in 2015!!

-1
#2492 5 years ago
Quoted from fattrain:

Q: I didn't get an unrequested refund, but I want a refund now from the DPUSA accounts.
A: We have a list of the refund requests and will process them as soon as we straightened out DP USA Inc.

Quoted from ozno:

But in any case it IS clear that DP isn't brimming with cash. If they were, they would have issued a statement saying that our deposits are being honored. They still refuse to do that.

Doesn´t the above address the issue that you are claiming hasn´t been addressed?

Why you are continuously injecting unfounded negativity into this debate is a mystery to me...

#2493 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

If people who got in wanted to get out to save thousands of dollars, why did they get in? Surely those people should not have got in and saved thousands of dollars at the beginning...??

Maybe the situation was very delicate, maybe Phil was getting himself into trouble from what he was saying... maybe DP didn´t want to put him further in whatever hole he had got himself into which caused him to make these public outbursts in the first place... the guy has serious health issues, so why would the nice guys at DP want to worsen that by starting a public battle... there´s also the legal side of these claims on a public forum to consider... All I´m saying is that with one side of the story only to consider, it´s a bit premature to base decisions to abandon the project...
I just find it hard to imagine that the only reason Phil wanted out so urgently was because of some concerns over licencing, and some possible other imperfect business practice... he did mention some tax stuff, and with the year end looming... maybe he messed something up on that side of things and realised he was facing a massive tax debt that could put his family at risk, and wanted out because of that, and was using these other issues as an excuse/smokecreen... maybe he thought that if he caused enough trouble to the business, DP would cut him lose and absolve him of the problem he´d caused...
All this bailing out based on this one guys claims is a shame for the progress of TBL...
Happy new year to all!! May we see TBLs in our homes in 2015!!

I think people believed that DP was a stable company and really thought the game was a go. Turns out not so much. So, the people requesting their money back will receive it, hopefully, rather than it being gone forever later on. People expect a return, your statement might be true if you were putting money into risky stocks or something, where you know the risk upfront and have decided to do it knowing you could lose it all. That's not at all the same as this.

And I'd consider both sides of the story if there were two sides, my entire point.

#2494 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Enough already..this is pinball for chrissakes. WTF!

It's kinda like a car wreck, you don't want to look, but you can't help yourself. You could always drain the thread if it bothers you enough to come on here to post how sad you think the thread is.

#2495 5 years ago

wow this thread is still going on I def would think about buying if there ever come out

#2496 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

I think people believed that DP was a stable company and really thought the game was a go. Turns out not so much. So, the people requesting their money back will receive it, hopefully, rather than it being gone forever later on.

The only thing making DP seem like an unstable and risky company are Phil´s actions, and the panic that that caused via Pinside. The more people that bail out because of that, the more chance there is that DP and the TBL project will fail. People who pre-ordered did so because they don´t want TBL to fail, they want TBL to play! Trying to persuade people to get out/stay out will only increase the chance of failure... The people who showed their support to DP by pre-ordering should, I suggest, continue that support, they need it more than ever now!! I´m not staying in so I can hold my head high and say I didn´t fail them in their hour of need, I´m staying in bacause I want this game... getting out if you want the game will reduce the chance of getting the game... People who really want it should stick together in their support, and we will all see this game in our gamesrooms.

I´m glad DP at least did something to reward those that stay in/get back in... there is an increased risk now, and with any risk, there should be a reward... sure, the plaque isn´t a massive reward, but it´s something... I hope it encourages some people to get back on board! DP really need to issue a deadline for doing so, or refunded people will understandably sit tight... I know I´l be proud to have that plaque on my game, it will remind me of how I stayed on board through these troubled waters and will give me the feeling that I was part of the reason the game got made at all

That plaque sure will have a story behind it!

#2497 5 years ago

HAPPY NEW YEAR DUDES!

image-142.jpg

#2498 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

The only thing making DP seem like an unstable and risky company are Phil´s actions, and the panic that that caused via Pinside.

The PRIMARY thing making DP seem like an unstable and risky company is the lack of liquidity implied by requested deposits not being refunded.

#2499 5 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

The PRIMARY thing making DP seem like an unstable and risky company is the lack of liquidity implied by requested deposits not being refunded.

Not sure if you read previous parts of this thread, but apparently there was this guy in the US (Phil) who kind of messed things up a bit, and as a result the US account has suffered some problems. DP have another guy on board who´s apparently going to sort it out...

By the way, the reason those people were requesting refunds in the first place was a result of the panic Phil had created, which brings the catalyst of the ´problems with DP´ back to the panic caused by Phil...

#2500 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Not sure if you read previous parts of this thread...

I LOL'd.

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