Good point, please everyone go ahead and make your Jan 1st payment, these guys rock and definitely have their shit together!

Where is the NS letter, or any reminder or communication.. I haven't heard sh*t from DP Im not sure what to do..

what happens if I do not pay the next deposit?

That's the $8500 question... Dude

haha

I got a reply from Barry saying they are close but still working on a solution (w.r.t. my deposits in DP USA). He also mentioned that I can hold off on the 1/1/2015 deposit and still keep my place in line while we wait for more info about the situation.

Seems reasonable. I'm willing to sit tight for a few weeks.

I guess I don't get why Barry will take the time to send that to individuals, but not take the time to just send that email to everyone. Drama breeds in a vacuum. People just don't want the uncertainty. Tell them you're working on it and they're not forgotten and most people will probably just be patient.

I guess ''Tell them you're working on it and they're not forgotten and most people will probably just be patient'' will not do it. I could write also such an email full with blablabla. . DP profiled themselves as beeing among the pinheads and treaded eveyone as a VIP and as we were good old friends as well. Now that things are not so nice, they ignore their ''friends'' who are having a bad feeling in their stomach now that the next payment is expected. It is way to silent from their side.

Any chance of getting a recap on what's happened so far and what this means for TBL?
~2,500 posts, too long of a thread to go through to catch up. Thanks in advance

Well, he was replying to a specific question about the imminent 1/1/2015 deposit. He did say they will send out more info soon. So maybe we will get a big email in the next day or so.

Recap:
1) Phil (USA Partner) got nervous of business practices and potential licensing issues and unilaterally issued refunds to USA customers (Phil wants out of DP and his intention to leave is being met with resistance)
2) Phil aired details which made everyone nervous about the kind of organization their $$$ are tied up with
3) A "run on the bank" ensued and many are waiting on refunds
4) DP has been way too silent and have not properly addressed things
5) It is questionable whether DP will be able to survive and if TBL will actual get made

How did I do everyone?

I think 1-4 are fair, 5 isn't. I don't think there's any real sign that DP can't survive.

I´d suggest that this is also not fact... more accurately, Phil SAID he got nervous about businass practices and potential licencing issues, but what we don´t know is if this was his actual concern... He could have been saying this for reasons we don´t know... There may have been another reason for him to say this, like a smokescreen to cover somethimg up that he messed up himself... we only have his side of the story...

I'm sure that nobody wants my opinion because I am a newer user who usually only lurks on Pinside. Call me whatever names you want. I don't want to start any s*%^ here or anything but, that being said, I've followed this debacle from the beginning and I would have requested a refund the second I saw Phil's first post. I work in a totally different industry, however some aspects of it share some similarities with this situation. My experience is with hedge-funds. "Quarterly redemptions make this one safe! My advisor told me I can get out any time I want." Know how many times I've heard this? Then the manager of the fund farts and there is a run for the exits and POOF your liquidity (and often your money) disappear. Same situation. Whether or not you guys want to believe it, DP is likely a seriously impaired company at this point. If refunds requested after the 'incident' aren't going out, that's a really bad sign. The fact that some of you are even contemplating sending them more money in a couple of days is total idiocy. My advice is to get your refund requests in, but at this point it is probably too late. DP is probably sitting on a mountain of refund requests with no cash to pay them out. GLWTS. No way in hell I would be sending them more money.

More importantly we now have Roger Sharpe involved so its a safe bet those concerns are being more than handled.

Aurich, there are a couple of notable red flags in this very thread regarding the company's liquidity (e.g., upstreaming of funds to pay for affiliate expenses, some refunds issued while others are still on hold). The latter appears to be in direct conflict with the company's stated policy that customer deposits are fully refundable.

Frankly, the liquidity issue is quite possibly the biggest threat to Dutch Pinball right now, and they may need to address that issue through external financing, an equity infusion from the owners, or a new JV partner, if necessary, to maintain a going concern. Doing so would also provide much needed assurance for the company's stakeholders (i.e., existing depositors, vendors, employees, future customers).

If liquidity is NOT an issue, then they need to break their silence and communicate that message clearly to stakeholders and then reinforce that message with tangible proof (e.g., ALL requested deposits refunded to depositors, new credit line with ______, €________ additional equity infusion from owners, new JV partner named _______).

Major point being missed. They have a game that is easy to sell. Even the worst case at this point just means slower production.

No. They don't have anything but a couple of prototypes at this point. Prototypes and full scale production are a world apart. Worst case scenario is that they have no liquidity and the company BKs without one machine being produced.

This guy gets it. Liquidity is the issue here. I would wager that they are attempting to bring on an equity partner as we speak.

Without any cash, worst case will mean non-existent production.

1-3 and most of 4 are correct. 5 is just conjecture at this point.

And you left off 6-7:

6. DP hiring Roger Sharp to address the single biggest issue - the license. And nothing has indicated since that time that anything is lost.

7. Some of the money is apparently being held in the USA account that is still under Phil's control and DP cannot get at it. This may be related to some refunds not being issued as yet.

8. DP made a response that indicated they are trying to work out details of Phil's departure, which includes the release of funds that are still under Phil's control. Since that announcement, Phil has gone from over-share mode to silent. So it seems like they are trying to work things out privately like they should have in the first place.

Thanks for all the summaries, I think I'm more or less up to date now and wish all the best for TBL as it looks like a great pin

The license doesn't mean jack squat if they are facing liquidity issues. I guaran-damn-tee that they are probably sitting on a pile of refund requests and don't have enough cash to pay them out. Don't forget that they have been using the deposits to fund operations as well. Employees still need to get paid. Rent, utilities etc. It's all perception at this point. If they are sitting on a mountain of cash, issue a release saying that all refunds will be processed immediately and that there are no liquidity concerns.

if DP can come up with some substantial progress updates, Ill post my 3rd deposit on schedule. If not, I may use the extra grace period to see where the chips fall.

So folks really thought the money was just sitting there vs paying bills and ordering parts etc.
Yeah a run will hurt but they can also clear things up and move forward. Maybe they will need to find an investor or slow down.
That exactly why I am in. If you want to make a run and slow it down and be part of hindering vs helping then its a shame you got in.
Its been said by many,The game is one of then greatest so it will get sold. Maybe in small batches or with an investor or by pinheads getting back on the train and supporting them.
But the game is out there and many of us want it.
We all just need Phils shit cleaned up and to move forward.

I doubt folks thought money was just sitting there vs paying the bills. But I also doubt folks thought they would need to refund hordes of people at once.

Amen to that.

If you want to fund a startup for good tidings and feeling, more power to you. But everyone doesn't feel that way, so they should be able to get out and not be held hostage.

Agree

Just because a prototype looks great and there is demand for the game, does not mean that it is a viable business venture. There are minimum expenses which need to get paid and require a certain number of games to be sold (preorders or not) for the business to stay afloat. Good intentions and best wishes are not going to get games produced. They need capital, either from preorders or investment. The sad truth is that if enough people get refunds and they cant fund this company (and have the orders to make it viable) it's over.

That is true, unfortunate or not.

So folks need to decide if they want it made.

Since it would be difficult for any pinball venture to get private investment, it would seem TBL will only happen with preorders. Only those with "balls of steel" need apply.

Really?

Who *doesn't* want it made?

I want it made! Doesn't mean that I'm going to pre-order a $9k pin under these circumstances. I think there is a lot more to decide than just if we want it made. Everyone has to look at their own priorities and aversions to risk and decide for themselves whether it makes sense to do so.

I missed the part where only pre orders got pins...oh right that wasn't never said.
It's fine to wait till it's made to be ordered...you're only out a rug, trim, and might cost a little more is all. I would find it really hard to believe they lost even 1/3 of all orders. From the people I've talk to who were in originally most are us are still in.

It's not that simple. Lots of business start-ups fail despite strong commitment from the owners/employees and a clearly defined market of buyers willing and able to purchase a product.

It takes cash to fund payroll, finalize mechanical designs, develop shippable code, purchase parts, manage inventory, ramp up production, man the assembly line, conduct QC testing, process invoices, manage & account for cash receipts, and ship final product.

Cash is the life blood of a business, not the desire of stakeholders. If a business runs out of cash, it dies. That is the essential liquidity test for operating a business as a going concern.

Quote of the year: "Building pinball machines is hard."

There is a real question whether they can survive. If they were solid, they would have immediately issued a statement that DP USA is no longer, but everyone's money is safe with DP. They refuse to do that. They seem to be heading towards some resolution where they blame PHil for taking our money and absolving themselves of responsibility. Only problem is DP is liable for all the money as there was never any legal distinction between DP and DP USA. The machine is dead if they don't sort this out. I cont care that much about my $5500, but after I get done talking with Universal, DP won't have a TBL a license. The machine is going to rock if it gets made, so I am really hoping that DP fixes this.

Double

Wtf are you saying?

I considered long and hard preordering this game when it was first announced, and I'm so very glad I didn't. I considered it because of the refundable preorders.

Really feel bad for everyone who wants out and hasn't gotten a refund.

What's really a shame is to try and make people feel guilty about wanting their money, as if they are somehow abandoning the hobby / not supporting pinball. They are a company offering a product, and there are customers. Emotion does not need to factor into it.

Also, not trying to single you out, but sentiments like these have abounded and I just. don't. get. it. So what? Roger Sharpe is a cool dude, and has an amazingly successful history in the business, but the man is not Jesus. Shaking out license issues does not liquidity, or a pinball machine, make.

What the response if the refunds are honored in two weeks?
Making it a 30 day refund.

I think that's completely reasonable! Was really just trying to address the "shame on you for not supporting pinball by wanting a refund" attitude.

Anyone pre ordering is effectively an investor in the company. But at the end, instead of equity in the company, you end up with a pinball machine.

Unlike an investor though, you have no say in how the company is run, and you have no chance to make a return on the investment. Yet the risk is the same (if not more?)

It's just like a kick-starter.

Between this and MMr, the whole preorder thing is all but finished. Expectations become too high (as they should be) and pre-order customers get nervous about what the final product will be.

For all the complaints about Stern, no one compares in being able to deliver on what they promise at this point.

Yeah, right...

If you jumped I on a game that you could order anyway you had to be doing it to support the idea. And if your joining the run on the bank you are probably doing it of group fear from the panic created here .
My only counterpoint is think about why you jumped in to begin with.
I said above I agree with the person who wants out.
at this point I worry more about your shaming comments and a possible overly delicate nature.

As for roger sharpe he is the leading guy in securing licenses in the business . Proven so and with direct connections where needed so yeah having him on board does actually mean a lot .

I could not agree more. This thread is filled with more conjecture than a conservative radio host's daily rant. People have jumped to so many wild ass conclusions concerning TBL and DP; and all because of a loose cannon partner who decided it was best to air his personal business grievances in a thread on Pinside without providing any proof of his accusations.

How much does St.Roger,the saviour,cost?
Wheres that check coming from?
How long will it take?
As for roger sharpe he is the leading guy in securing licenses in the business . Proven so and with direct connections where needed so yeah having him on board does actually mean a lot .

While I'm still in on TBL, I'm slightly concerned that there hasn't been an update or newsletter with the next payment due in just a couple of days. I've emailed Barry to ask if there will be an update and if they are maintaining the 1st of Jan as the deadline for the next payment, but to be honest I don't feel like I should have to be requesting this sort of information given the current situation. I don't want to request a refund but I think I'll find it difficult to submit another payment without some sort of update.