My charge was dated 9-27-2014 and I made the 1st two deposits that day ($4,500) using my amex through paypal to the DP USA account. Amex will credit you back right away and start their own investigation. I have disputed a few charges over the years like this with amex and its always worked out to my favor.

Nobody knows, but you try a lawyer's letter anyways. What Phil did instead hurts both him and DP. This scorched earth mentality is not wise in the eyes of a judge, and DP BV can now pursue him in court for damages. Always protect yourself with a lawyer, they're not expensive for a guy who donated $100k in the first place.

These guys were right on track with the license issues, Roger Sharpe confirms that in the podcast. The only reason this has become a problem is because Phil threw a fit, some of you guys now want out (understandable) and Some people keep throwing stuff in this thread that has been taken care of or is taken care of as we speak.

You are talking to a wall

Wow, I thought we saw the zenith of polarization on WOZ, but I think this TBL debacle may even exceed that.

I understand that passions are running high on this, and if I had $4K plus fluttering out in No Mans Land Id be pretty intense about it too, but even the most ardent supporter of the project must realize that this is a very poor way for any company to be starting out, especially one planning to build something as complex as a pinball machine. Anyone who watched what JJP has gone thru starting a pinball company from scratch, should realize just how mammoth an undertaking this is if you want to do it on a large, professional scale. If they can`t even manage their pre-order accounts, it only gets more complex and intensive from here.

I sincerely hope that no one loses money in this, that would be a disaster for the pinball community and pretty much crush the development of games by so called boutique manufacturers.

Walls can be tear down

But yes, I think everyone has now formed their opinion and dug in deep and this thread will only become of interest again if new shit comes to light.

Has anyone started a poll yet to see how many people bailed on this project? I got my refund, but resubmitted my payment to dutchbv the next day. Am I worried? yes! Ready to give up? No. Need more answers before the next payment on the 31st. I am a glass half full guy hoping this project still gets made and I still get my dream pinball made. Would love to see a poll on how many achievers still have the faith..... By the way, has anyone personally heard from phil other then on this forum since he came forward? he stopped answering emails and IM's since this happened. On the other hand, the DP guys are still talking to me.....

You mean like this one?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tbl-whos-staying-in

I think the people that are saying "grow a pair and stay in" or something similar may not understand the sheer complexities of production. Designing a pinball and liscensing are big but no where near the level of production. I have friends that own toy companies and work at toy companies video game company's as well as other manufacturing companies and the amount of work to bring something through production is not a simple feat. That being said, I belive DP can do it, but they will need to be far more organized than what has been shown so far.

I think people have seen a glimpse behind the curtain and are starting to see cracks, it's understandable for them to question where their money is at this point. DP's best solution is a frank discussion with their buyers. They shoudk approach the buyers as they would a bank if they were asking for a loan. Set out a business plan schedule regular updates and keep people in the loop. I would bet that a mojority of not all of their customers would come back and reinvest in this machine once they see DP has a solid game plan and that they can deliver.

That's all anyone wants to see. I doubt anyone here wants to see them fail. We just want to know this won't become a train wreck either.

Ten Ton Mojority

Not everyone is taking sides, however. To me, this is an internal disagreement between the three principals. I don't personally know any of them, and have no idea who, if anyone, is "right." None of us in the peanut gallery have enough information to know that. All I want is to be able to buy the machine without any risk of losing my money. Right now, the disagreement is causing risk, so I am waiting.

Exactly! How can anyone take sides when they really don't know what the truth is. I hope it happens because it looks like it will be awesome, but there is no way I'd put money into something this shady.

Based on my experience, DP will get a 'charge back' notification from AMEX and then has the option to challenge it. Typically this may be around whether nor not a customer got the product, etc. In this case, they really won't have any grounds for a challenge. The big downside that will come of this for DP, is they are likely going to lose the ability to take AMEX. AMEX has a very low tolerance for chargebacks, which they look at based on the percentage charged back relative to the total charged over a period of time. Since they probably did not get a ton of payments on AMEX charges, and a good chunk are now being charged back, they could lose that ability to take AMEX -- I do NOT know how this works with paypal.

Exactly!!!
No sense in arguing who has the moral highground.If my money was in the only thing i would care about is when do I get the game I just paid for.

To me ,the anxiety comes from whether or not the game gets made.My problem is am i getting something for my money.

Whatever DP does internally is their problem.

Not organised for the production phase seems unlikely to me, I was receiving parts last August/september to paint for the proto's, and they didnt arrive in a way I was expecting, at all! everything goes through the factory systematically, nothing garage-style, labeled, bagged, date produced, date in, who booked it in etc.etc. I mean..that's keeping track of things if I ever saw it. And so much easier later to identity problem parts should that arise. And that's just during prototyping phase..

Anyway, im still very confident its going to get worked Out and Q2 deadline Will be met.

So there is a delivery date!!!
I asked earlier and got crickets

At expo, they said anyone that ordered then should have the machine by Q3, 2015. I Think Q2 is pretty ambitious, but I was under the impression that they were ahead of schedule, and possibly setting conservative dates.

That's great news (and really that is the sort of thing they should concentrate on right now while they get the financials and phil sorted). Maybe a quick video tour of the manufacturing facility and what people can expect, that might go a long way to calming people's fears.

What I understood was that Q3 was the planned (conservative) deadline for delivery and that one of the guys said Q2 was doable.

As far as I know the first ordering VIP's were informed that Q2 would be the start of things. Means anywhere between april/June I guess . Anyone after oktober I would assume Q3 and so on..

Of course things could be delayed a little , its not like nothing has happened as of late ..

On the plus side, reading this thread made me want to go back and re-watch the movie.

Yeah, the movie is about series of flaps due to a mistake. Hmm, funny how art imitates life or should I say life imitates art...

This has to be the hottest topic ever on pinside.

I haven't seen this much activity since PPS announced MMr.

You knock the nail on it's head!

Considering how late they are on the BOP kit, I would think anytime in 2015 would be optimistic. They ship and finish that, then I would have more faith, but when you can't finish a much easier product on schedule, how can you expect to produce games on large scale on schedule? Seems highly unlikely.

I'm still trying to get Burningman to take me up on my friendly wager about him getting his TBL before June.

This was actually one of my first thoughts when I heard they were doing this game. To me I'd be watching how that small frat run goes for indications of how they can handle production of a pinball machine. I'm fact I'm really interested in ordering a BoP kit and seeing how they handle that and then seeing about TBL

Wanna do Dec 2015?
I'll take a friendly bet

Ask him, not me. I'm with you.

#t=18

lower p/f new mod.

I might have an answer to that early next week...

edit...I am with Geert though, I feel confident that it will still get produced and in my home by the end of June. If it comes before, I'll let you know...

They have already done this, using their own money... Many people saw then at Expo...

I´m assuming this pot of gold you´re referring to is a new manufacturer kicking out quality machines with great code etc... It might not exist at the moment, but then DP have not made TBL yet... Just because something doesn´t exist now, it doesn´t mean it won´t exist ever! Philosophy is´t my strong point, but I´m sure this is true...

Talking of existing, my 5yo daughter came to me recently with her sad voice saying: "Daddy, Ani said I don´t exist...ˇ. I didn´t know how to console her clear distress at this comment from her older sister... so I asked her if she thought she existed herself, she said she did... it seemed to calm her down a bit... later she came out with one of the greatest philosophical statements I´ve ever heard a child come out with: "Someone who is blind can´t see... and someone who doesn´t do a-a (kids speak for shit) doesn´t exist"... The things kids say eh!

And really hasn't since B/W dropped out.

Anything can happen, true statement. My statement about getting a game with complete code and flawless quality out of the box I don't count on happening - even with DP. There is even some speculation when BoP 2.0 ships it will still be providing code updates. Basically, I hope I'm proven wrong but I'm setting my expectations that code will be great - eventually - but not out of the box. This is not a slam just on DP - my expectations have been recalibrated for all pinball companies. The only complete games new out of box one can argue - is the vault editions by Stern.

I have been told that there is a realy large possibility some things would be connected to the internet for your own playerstats and awards (pin 2.0). See it as a player stats portal. I think it's not more likeley to assume the process will by automaticly updated.

Building software is the second nature of the DP core team.

There is a difference between incomplete code and code with bugs that need to be fixed. I got my Metallica with half of the code, so almost no modes at all. That is a big difference to complete code with some bugs in it. I think the people at DP will try to ship with complete code and after that they may need to fix some bugs that users report (no better bug detectors than actual customers).

At this point BOP 2.0 is not just code with bugs, it's incomplete code, no Metamorphisis, which is the main toy in the game!!!!!

WOZ? It took a while but it's done... great game, awesome code... go buy one

If nothing else, I admire your optimism!

i'd buy their demo BOP 2.0 for $8k over TBL

Yes great game,great code.......but did not ship that way

What is your nature??????

Let's say that the US preorder people lose their money and DP abandons them, BUT DP does manage to finish the game and produce it. Would you still want one? Would you support a company that used a loophole to defraud USA customers? Why is it that DP hasn't issued a statement assuring USA customers that they will honor their deposits?? Why did Phil stop issuing refunds? is the account actually empty, or did DP threaten Phil with a lawsuit if he continues? If the latter is the case, then DP is lying, if the former is true then DP is lying.

Don't get me wrong, but the American's got screwed by an american, not by the dutch!

I say let's have a beer in Dutch style

Probably neither of those scenarios.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.