(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 42 of 77.
-5
#2051 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I thought they got TBL... That's why they paid, no?

Are you purposefully trying to bring everyone down by your constant negativity? You're worse than my wife! The game will get made and people who stay in will be all the happier because, due to people taking your nonsense to heart and pulling out, the game will be all that rarer...

I'm trying to help people not get screwed. If you like getting screwed, you will not like my comments. I think it's quite positive to throw a realistic assessment out to people who are buying a dream.

#2052 5 years ago

double

#2053 5 years ago

Damn the internet didn't even exict without the Dutch! (Even Pinside )

#2054 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Are you purposefully trying to bring everyone down by your constant negativity? You're worse than my wife! The game will get made and people who stay in will be all the happier because, due to people taking your nonsense to heart and pulling out, the game will be all that rarer... Sorry, shouldn't feed the troll, I know....

He just got in late on this thread and only wants his fair share of ranting in it.

Latest news about DP: all the guys just bought matching colors Lamborghini's. I think they pre-ordered them

15
#2055 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

I thought they got TBL... That's why they paid, no?
DP have a good chance at being the next Bally/Williams, and this will be their first title... I'm glad I'm in, and proud to be part of this epic beginning!

I've read this whole thing, mostly out of curiousity as I'm not a stakeholder in any way, and had no plans to post, but this last comment just blew my mind!! You really can't be serious, this is a first effort from a company with absolutely ZERO history of making anything and you are comparing them to the company that made the greatest games ever!!

I was at Expo, sat thru the seminar, played the prototype several times, it's a nice looking game, and DP put on a very good promotion, but come on guys, some of the hyperbole has been just ridiculous.

I sincerely hope that all those who are nervous, something I would most certainly be at this point, get their money back and then can decide on there own terms if they want to get back in. Those who are staying in, you truly have a set of brass ones, not sure if your are crazy or courageous, but I wish you luck.

#2056 5 years ago
Quoted from dgpinball:

I've read this whole thing, mostly out of curiousity as I'm not a stakeholder in any way, and had no plans to post, but this last comment just blew my mind!! You really can't be serious, this is a first effort from a company with absolutely ZERO history of making anything and you are comparing them to the company that made the greatest games ever!!

Just going from what informed people have said and from other information regarding components they use to build the game... My understanding is that the build quality and feel of the game resembles Bally/Williams games from peoples comments who played the prototypes... so yes, I am serious... They do have a good chance at achieving this... They have zero history at the moment, I know... that's because this is their first pin... how is it feasibly possible for a company who make their first pin to have any history? Even the best pinball company in the world had to start with a first pin.

Quoted from SadSack:

I'm trying to help people not get screwed. If you like getting screwed, you will not like my comments.

I don't like getting screwed, but I also don't like your comments... not because I like getting screwed, but because I think you are speculating from nothing and are just... don't feed the troll...

#2057 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

My understanding is that the build quality and feel of the game resembles Bally/Williams games from peoples comments who played the prototypes

This.. Even roger sharpe said it played and felt like a williams machine on coast2coast pinball. I've played it, it's true. Really hope they get their act together and resolve management issues so this gets built.

#2058 5 years ago

Again full meltdowm fueled by the usuals. Look worst case if more bail than stay in it will just mean slow smaller runs until they start shipping a few. Then they will sell like hot cakes. As he said on C2c the game is that good . It's a golden ticket . Hell they can sell a position if they have to. I'm tempted to throw a coupe hundred in if needed at this point.
Again let them sort out this partner mess and let's go from there. No ones losing money so relax . The bigger stress for owners is time lost on this crap from delivery date .

#2059 5 years ago

It would be hard for this thing to be any worse than it is now. It's completely clustered.

Phil acted like kind of a jack-wagon here, but it really has to land at the feet of the other two partners who didn't act when Phil requested they act. That's the first and underlying issue.

Good luck to anyone in the US who wants to get their money back.

#2060 5 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

Phil acted like kind of a jack-wagon here, but it really has to land at the feet of the other two partners who didn't act when Phil requested they act.

Maybe they had a good reason for doing that that we're not aware of... Maybe Phil has not been totally revealing in his revelation on here... Maybe he's been not revealing certain things that would put him in a bad light and only been revealing things that put DP in a bad light (for whatever reason). Maybe DP have not responded with 'the whole story' because they respect Phil (despite what he said) because they actually see him as a friend, and one who does not deserve attacks or criticism at this stage in his life... maybe that's why we don't hear from DP on here... It's all speculation at the end of the day, and understandably damaging to DP...

#2061 5 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Hey, cool it Walter. Look, pal, there never was any money. The Big Lebowski gave me an empty briefcase, so take it up with him, man.

Breaking news. For those who stay in the project and do not ask for a refund, not only will you receive a rug and chrome package but a limited edition briefcase too. This offer is valid only for USA customers, if you accept the limited edition briefcase you are agreeing just like in the movie to no money (refund). But the briefcases limited

#2062 5 years ago

Was there ever a firm delivery date?

#2063 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Just going from what informed people have said and from other information regarding components they use to build the game... My understanding is that the build quality and feel of the game resembles Bally/Williams games from peoples comments who played the prototypes...

All recent teasing aside, I played the game as well at Expo and it was very fun. I stood in line to play it twice. Accurate statements that it played and felt like a Williams game. No BS. There is no question these guys have design skills that rivals other pinball companies in the business today.

Unfortunately, they need a business partner that knows how to run a company, manage licenses, and manufacture a game. What is killing all of the start ups (minus Spooky) is the "design" mentality and disregard for actually following business rules.

My Xmas wish is that all these boutiques cut a deal with Stern. Let Stern keep the manufacturing plant fully staffed and charge all these boutiques to manufacture games for them. Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

#2064 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

My Xmas wish is that all these boutiques cut a deal with Stern. Let Stern keep the manufacturing plant fully staffed and charge all these boutiques to manufacture games for them. Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

That would be great but I do not see it happening unfortunately. More realistic wish is that things continue to go well for Charlie/Spooky and then others can have him build games and ramp up production capabilities to meet a higher demand.

16
#2065 5 years ago
Quoted from swf127:

Yep, with one down on account of health, another on account of bereavement and a third that really may not have access to the funds. If a majority of the clientele went to Fidelity and demanded their money back they would wait up to a week before a check would even be cut. I would expect this to take weeks if not a month or two to sort out if Phil is the gatekeeper to the domestic accounts.

So their answer should be that 'we can't process it immediately due to the current situation, but we will honor your request and will do so with an ETA of xyz'. Instead we get "we forwarded your request... have a nice day". Passing the buck due to internal strife that the customer shouldn't be exposed to.

People slammed Phil for airing all the laundry and pointing fingers... wtf do you think Barry is doing here? Basically playing Pontius Pilate and saying it's for Phil to address.

Could just be language barrier too.. but again.. when dealing with customers in distress you give them ASSURANCES not raw facts that unpolished with just infuriate the customer more. This is basic customer service here...

#2066 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

DP have a good chance at being the next Bally/Williams, and this will be their first title... I'm glad I'm in, and proud to be part of this epic beginning!

Wow - talk about putting the cart before the horse!

Wirh such optimism, you may be better off picking 6 numbers and buying a lottery ticket this weekend.

#2067 5 years ago

I am one who requested a refund. I don't like the drama when I have several thousand dollars invested. I have now been told that DP has been locked out of Phil's Paypal account and all they can do is forward requests to him. I asked if they had a central business account (which it seems obvious they would) and I was told simply that they are trying to figure something out.

So, regardless of those of you who believe in the game and those who don't...this is a shit show and a problem. How a company can take thousands of dollars for a product that does not exist and not even have a business bank account is concerning and if you have any business sense, you should be concerned too.

#2068 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

My Xmas wish is that all these boutiques cut a deal with Stern. Let Stern keep the manufacturing plant fully staffed and charge all these boutiques to manufacture games for them. Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

Sorry Billy but that would be awful imo

Stern's assembly line has terrible QC besides we will get to see what Europe can produce. Mirco is doing the pf's and I'm very excited as his work is usually nice.
Outside of pinball the Dutch have an excellent reputation in manufacturing, agriculture, and shipping.
Personal I'm really excited to see what they can do.
According to Roger Sharpe the liceanse will be approved (perhaps minus a few images) and will be granted. So the issue that we have currently is money and Phil. Sadly we are in a wait and see what happens phase.

#2069 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

basic customer service

often talked about but rarely seen in this hobby

#2070 5 years ago

All guessing and yet we heard from someone who knows both sides and got a pretty fair assessment. Bottom line is they have some cleaning up to do. And they will.

#2071 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

My Xmas wish is that all these boutiques cut a deal with Stern. Let Stern keep the manufacturing plant fully staffed and charge all these boutiques to manufacture games for them. Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

This is not a bad idea!!!!Of course I don't know what it would entail.But I like it!!!!

#2072 5 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

I'm trying to help people not get screwed. If you like getting screwed, you will not like my comments. I think it's quite positive to throw a realistic assessment out to people who are buying a dream.

Unfortunately, people in a tough position rarely see the potential downsides, but want to hope for the best, especially when money is on the line.

I hope everything works out, TBL gets made and is a great game. But I am very happy I changed my mind and did not preorder at $8500. Until this thread started, I wondered if I made the right decision. Now I'm positive I did.

18
#2073 5 years ago

I find it interesting how they were OK with spending money out of the DP USA account for other project's expenses, but when people who paid into DP USA want refunds, all of a sudden it's not OK for them to spend other projects money to give refunds?

Why can't they give people refunds out of the other accounts and replenish it with the money Phil has once they get it from him?

-1
#2074 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Unfortunately, they need a business partner that knows how to run a company, manage licenses, and manufacture a game. What is killing all of the start ups (minus Spooky) is the "design" mentality and disregard for actually following business rules.

OK, lets say that DP are not 'businessmen' like Stern guys... I'm kind of happy about that to be honest... maybe it means we we won't get games with half baked code and games that need 'fix kits' turning up at our door because they're too eager to get the next one churned out, maybe they're also not fixated on profit margins that make them lean towards cheaper components (because they're not businessmen)... The fact that these guys are clearly pinball enthusiasts gives them an edge worth taking a risk in... once this game gets off the ground they'll have learned a few business rules to make the next one go smoother from that aspect. This thread seems to have too many people wanting to kick them down... doesn't the pinball community want a new kid on the block that might have some really excellent games to offer??

#2075 5 years ago

Every damn time you suck me back in. This thread is practice for march madness...in terms of lost production at work

-1
#2076 5 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Why can't they give people refunds out of the other accounts and replenish it with the money Phil has once they get it from him?

That question should really be directed to DP... throwing it out here is only going to give rise to wild speculation and negativity I'm sure... That seems to be the will of most people posting here, for reasons that are baffling to me...

Maybe there are a lot of new accounts being opened to voice negative views on here which seem to be focused on damaging the DP business... Now who would want to do that sort of thing...??

#2077 5 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Sorry Billy but that would be awful imo
Stern's assembly line has terrible QC besides we will get to see what Europe can produce. Mirco is doing the pf's and I'm very excited as his work is usually nice.
Outside of pinball the Dutch have an excellent reputation in manufacturing, agriculture, and shipping.
Personal I'm really excited to see what they can do.
According to Roger Sharpe the liceanse will be approved (perhaps minus a few images) and will be granted. So the issue that we have currently is money and Phil. Sadly we are in a wait and see what happens phase.

Ok, so assuming they get the licensing issues figured out and resolve the situation with Phil. How are they actually going to structure their business, setup the proper accounts and hire the staff necessary to build 500+ games? Do they have the business and HR knowledge to do this or are they just going to pay everyone using a 3rd party Paypal account? The way they've handled this situation so far from a business/communications standpoint has been very "amateur hour" and doesn't instill a lot of confidence that they know what they are doing from a business standpoint. Sure, they are incredibly talented from a design/technical standpoint but they need to prove that they actually know how to run a business before I'd feel comfortable sending money their way. Same goes for many of the other boutique companies (Spooky excluded) which are short on communication and financial transparency.

#2078 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

wild speculation and negativity

too late

#2079 5 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I find it interesting how they were OK with spending money out of the DP USA account for other project's expenses, but when people who paid into DP USA want refunds, all of a sudden it's not OK for them to spend other projects money to give refunds?
Why can't they give people refunds out of the other accounts and replenish it with the money Phil has once they get it from him?

Theorizing... because they would like to maintain the paypal transaction integrity. This keeps disputes, fees, etc all 'connected' in the paypal world and they don't have to face currency issues, etc. I'm sure those are all reasons why 'keeping it simple' is the best option for them in the sense of money and long term transaction integrity (and accounting). Ignoring all that probably creates a lot more liabilities they'd want to avoid.. nevermind if the capital is available.

IMO - the issue is the passing of the buck and lack of OWNING the problem as Dutch Pinball in the face of the customer. Delays in getting the funds are normal (IMO)... but the lack of owning the problem for the customer is the unacceptable part to me.

#2080 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

My Xmas wish is that all these boutiques cut a deal with Stern. Let Stern keep the manufacturing plant fully staffed and charge all these boutiques to manufacture games for them. Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

I'm not sure if that would be a good development. Lot's of pinheads still despise Stern and keep tellin' that Stern "plays differently" than B/W pinballs or that their build quality is not up to B/W. I'm not supporting this theory, but it would sure hurt TBL when it was built at Stern.

#2081 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Could just be language barrier too.. but again.. when dealing with customers in distress you give them ASSURANCES not raw facts that unpolished with just infuriate the customer more. This is basic customer service here...

WTF? First there is lots of fuss (also from you) that they aren't open and fair enough to the buyers, not enough info, no complete info. And now, when they communicate it "as it is", you're accusing them of communicating "raw facts", suggesting they better cover things up?!

#2082 5 years ago

Stern is the largest pinball manufacturer in the world!!!!!!!
MMr is being assembled there,Im guessing with B/W parts.Boutique "A" or "B" could do their own QC.
Better yet ask PPS how they plan on QCing their MMr. Assembled,with pride,by Stern.
40 - 50 per day....... that would make a whole lotta pre order,waiting forever folks very happy.

There are probably details Im not privy too,but when badbilly brought it up it sounds better than 2-3 games per week.

I guess we will find out when MMr gets assembled by Stern.JJP could join the party as well.Either way we will find out how feasible when MMr gets built.

#2083 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

My Xmas wish is that all these boutiques cut a deal with Stern. Let Stern keep the manufacturing plant fully staffed and charge all these boutiques to manufacture games for them. Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

I've made this suggestion in the past and feel it would be a great idea. I've even heard people from Stern (Gomez specifically) mention that the hobby could use some "new blood" in pinball game design to keep the hobby fresh in the future. A lot of these startups are good on the creative side of things and with coming up with a couple of prototype machines but seem to get "Stuck" when it comes time to actually start a business and build machines and deal with communications and licensing issues. Stern could simply buy the design/concept and take over from there. Or a better solution would be to contract with the designer on a game-by-game basis to get these games built. With that being said I doubt Stern would actually be interested in doing this. Despite saying that they want pinball to evolve and for "new blood" to come up with new design ideas they seem perfectly content to milk their old ideas and technologies, recycled designs and aging designers as long as they can. Can't say I blame them as that formula has been working great for them!

A better idea would be Spooky but they would need to expand their business dramatically to be able to support this.

#2084 5 years ago

The best thing DP could do at this point is to refund all the money, take care of the Phil side of things and only ask for the money when they go into production. That is the way to restore the faith back in DP.

-9
#2085 5 years ago

Hello, I'm Nigerian...um, I mean Dutch and if you send me money, I will send you back something that doesn't yet exist, but it will, I promise. You can trust me...

#2086 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

doesn't the pinball community want a new kid on the block that might have some really excellent games to offer??

I'm all for having new kids on the block to compete with Stern. Complete transparency I preordered JJP WOZ, RAZA and Predator. I did so with the noble idea to "help" new boutiques enter the competition and because I was excited about new games/titles/technology. I have since pulled out of Predator for many of the same reasons contained within this thread.

It's great to be optimistic. It's great to want to have new designs, builds, and technology. But with reality setting in - many of these guys are just talented designers with no business acumen whatsoever. Yes, I acknowledge and respect your opinion that they give us optimism for better build QC, parts, toys, complete code to our door, etc. Unfortunately, we've seen two start ups deliver - JJP and Spooky - and both did not come complete with final code. We got some better toys, some very cool technology, and eventually some really cool code - but the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow I've come to realize doesn't exist. My feet are back on the ground firmly planted in reality.

DP can design a great playing game and I'm certain the code will be great. I'm optimistic they can manufacture a high value game with better QC than Stern. I'm honestly doubtful that will happen based on what was exposed here. Once parts start being ordered, issues with vendors uncovered, staffing and training of manufacturing floor, paying these employees properly with benefits, support, etc - the business side comes in. No longer in design phase now the hard truth of manufacturing comes in.

Sorry, while I try to be optimistic based on their coming out of the gate super strong they fell on turn one bad. Epic fall that is being replayed on ESPN every half hour for sport. Now they need to brush themselves off and get back up and recognize you need help. Anyone from Zaccaria still out there in Europe if you don't want US help?

#2087 5 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Why can't they give people refunds out of the other accounts and replenish it with the money Phil has once they get it from him?

I suspect some of it's due to the Euro/Dollar conversion rate and the fees they would pay?

#2088 5 years ago

WOW!! I just read through a good part of this thread and it is very disappointing. I really thought the DP guys were gonna be the ones to deliver on their promises. I know there is still a chance, but it sure doesn't look good to me and there is noway I'd be sending any money into that train wreck.

#2089 5 years ago

Maybe some facts for the people that are interested. :
- DP has outsourced the production to an other company in the Netherlands
- DP uses common industy parts.
- DP uses common assamblies for flippers, popbumpers etc. (that's why you have the B/W feeling)
- DP team sure as hell don't drive expencive cars.
- DP has 5 working prototypes. 3 in US and 2 in NL (4 more then most botique's)
- DP has a lot of pinball enthousiasts in there team
- TBL is using american size bolt, nuts and screws (not Metric!)

#2090 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

That question should really be directed to DP... throwing it out here is only going to give rise to wild speculation and negativity I'm sure... That seems to be the will of most people posting here, for reasons that are baffling to me...

This is a messaging forum dedicated to having discussions about pinball. This DP drama is about pinball, thus, everyone talks, speculates and voice their opinion about this and other pinball topics.

Maybe there are a lot of new accounts being opened to voice negative views on here which seem to be focused on damaging the DP business... Now who would want to do that sort of thing...??

You know what is damaging to DP's business? Partnering with bad business people and making questionable business decisions.

#2091 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

WTF? First there is lots of fuss (also from you) that they aren't open and fair enough to the buyers, not enough info, no complete info. And now, when they communicate it "as it is", you're accusing them of communicating "raw facts", suggesting they better cover things up?!

Your comprehension blows... and no I did not suggest anything you posted.

Customer Service includes knowing what details are relevant, what information is suitable for public consumption, and what process steps are germane to the customer's experience. Managing customer expectations does not include dumping YOUR problems onto the customer as excuses.

There are problems all the time with customer service because people say STUPID THINGS they shouldn't... because they are oblivious to what customer service is and how you interact with customers. And then there are just stupid people who will defend something blindly...

#2092 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Maybe some facts for the people that are interested. :
- DP has outsourced the production to an other company in the Netherlands
- DP uses common industy parts.
- DP uses common assamblies for flippers, popbumpers etc. (that's why you have the B/W feeling)
- DP team sure as hell don't drive expencive cars.
- DP has 5 working prototypes. 3 in US and 2 in NL (4 more then most botique's)
- DP has a lot of pinball enthousiasts in there team
- TBL is using american size bolt, nuts and screws (not Metric!)

This is good information and post.

Still, who is paying this manufacturing company to build? Even though parts are common industry you'll still be dealing with QC and vendor delays. The business side still exists. Read JJP thread as an example. Whether it's on this side or your side of the pond, building pinball is hard. Harder if you don't have a solid businessperson to manage it with talented designers.

-1
#2093 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Maybe some facts for the people that are interested. :
- DP has outsourced the production to an other company in the Netherlands
- DP uses common industy parts.
- DP uses common assamblies for flippers, popbumpers etc. (that's why you have the B/W feeling)
- DP team sure as hell don't drive expencive cars.
- DP has 5 working prototypes. 3 in US and 2 in NL (4 more then most botique's)
- DP has a lot of pinball enthousiasts in there team
- TBL is using american size bolt, nuts and screws (not Metric!)

I am a car enthusiast with my friends
I have a car built by one of the world's most successful companies
I use parts from established vendors
I use an established garage to do my work
I have modified cars I've created with the above

All nice things to mitigate risks, but do not alone give me a good success of me starting a Custom Car company.

Your list is nice, but incomplete in terms of what would be necessary to pitch a success story. It shows a list of things to be excited about and tries to speak to concerns from other projects (parts feel, starting a factory, two guys and a dog, etc). It's sorely lacking in key areas they have demonstrated problems with. Business management, global company experience, product delivery, support, etc.

#2094 5 years ago

Well i am no pitcher, that was Phil

#2095 5 years ago

Just paid another $1500 to DP.

Don't care if they are using my money to fund the project TBL project.

I'm sure when Phil gets out/back from his treatment that he will go about refunding all those who want out.

TBL is a popular theme in US. Maybe most of the pre-orders were US and so DP USA has most of the $$, even deposits from Europe went to DP USA. So looks like they have no choice but to wait for Phil. Why has phil locked the account? because he thinks Barry will steal the rest...no.....because he cares about his customers and wants to refund them....maybe..... Or maybe he is planning to run with the money to get what he is owed! Everyone is jumping to conclusions and making accusations.

#2096 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

DP has outsourced the production to an other company in the Netherlands

How many games per week can they make?

How many pre-orders?

Was there ever a delivery date for this game?

#2097 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Let Gary be in the manufacturing business and designers be in the designing business.

I will Paypal $100 to the first stern employee that writes this on the corporate mensroom wall at Stern Inc. !!

-4
#2098 5 years ago

I only know the delivery is in Q2 2015

The other things i don't know so i can not response to that. Let's say we can't pick up mexican's from the street but i would love an internship at the factory for a week

Because of the low risk factors i thing DP will succeed even without all American pre-orders (so only European) but that is a guess.

-2
#2099 5 years ago

Wondering what you mean about not being able to pick up "mexican's" off the street?

#2100 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

And then there are just stupid people who will defend something blindly...

You're forgetting the stupid people that keep bashing things blindly, despite the good will being shown.

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