Correct - but when you have a disgruntled partner who wants nothing but out... you don't ignore that and say "please keep being our cashier and on the front line". You move onto isolating them, removing their responsibility, and how to transition your legal responsibilities. It seems Barry and Co. just want to ignore Phil's demands and shove it to his desk to handle. We've seen how well that's gone...

Instead they keep pointing to Phil to address the refund requests instead of treating it as a Dutch Pinball problem in front of the customer a problem they can't handle immediately but respond they will address it.

Me trying to get my refund so I can drain this cesspool of a thread:

NuNKLJb[1].gif

Should Pinside just change its name to DPinsider? Are there even any other active threads? What day is it? OMG I can't remember my name or how I got here!

This we both agree on. I'll still purchase the game when it's made but at this point, I'll just hold onto my cash if Phil ever decides he wants to refund it.

Just reminding everyone that Phil is currently dealing with his cancer treatments, and even if he wants to help everyone and has the best intentions there's probably not going to be super fast resolution on any of this. So I would say there's probably going to be a little patience required for this part of the process.

The truth is out there - somewhere

One thing that is clear is that Phil is fighting a serious illness and is extremely stressed. I guess we won't hear both sides of the story.

Clearly lots of mistakes were made.

Difference here is that we heard about them 'live'. I suspect there are other horror stories in other pinball companies. We just don't get to hear about them.

Yep. Have a thumbs up in celebration of our mutual agreement!

I really want to see the game get made, I really want it to be amazing, but until it's out and amazing, I don't want to be a part of it anymore.

Aye, it just makes the whole ordeal more stressful than it should be, so it's hard to keep that in mind.

I hope Phil can just make a call into PayPal and process several, or all, of the refunds en-masse. Though, I have a feeling it's going to be a tedious process for him/them no matter what.

make it less tedious just stay in! This is way over blown through pinside drama. I remember when Jack was accused of embezzlement and fraud! Waiting for my Hobbit

TLDR... I now proclaim this Pingate!

Is anyone else nonplussed that DP's most-recent email laid all the blame for this on Phil?

I was hoping for more leadership along the lines of "We screwed up. We're sorry. We're going to make it right."

Instead they said "Phil screwed us. We're going to make it right, if he cooperates."

really have to agree with you there. if I had money tied up in paypal and got this email I would be beyond pissed, whether I wanted a refund or not.

that said, I don't think it unreasonable to assume that once Phil is done with his treatment he will refund those customers who still have money tied up in his account.

It's clear Phil deliberately did try to screw them, but they never said it.

They didn't need to - it was obvious.

Are you dyslectic? That's not a qoute from the email.

Glad I got off this thread for a while. Listened to the podcasts and thought about my interactions with DP.
Actually it Barry I hung out with at Expo and at Modern. He is the person I bought in to. Also I can't walk away from the fact that this is the best game I have enjoyed period. And it's practically done.
Yup a mess with DP USA but too much is there to not want to help this succeed.
I guess I will be like whysnow on wooly in that I do believe in these guys, the support they have in place and the game they are producing.
Soon this will be cleaned up and they will move forward.
Yup sounds crazy on Pinside but not as much when your wife talks to you about everything you saw and loved about DP and the basic facts of what's in place.
DP USA needs to be cleaned up. It will.

do we get a "drama discount" for new buyers into the game ?

Oh, man, now the Dutch dudes are mad at me? I'm on your side!

The comment about dyslexia doesn't make sense. But you are correct: I paraphrased. I stand by my interpretation of the email.

I've paid for BoP 2.0 and every TBL deposit to-date. I wasn't interested in a refund, but if Dutch Pinball just wants to blame Phil and move on then I'm losing faith.

You wrote it as it was a direct quote, that was the problem. There's more needed to get this dutch guy pissed off :p

The email did not strike me this way - they just layed out the situation as it is and as Phil himself already told so.
He is the one in control of the original Paypal account and has no intention of giving that to Barry or Jaap, till the DP USA ownership is dealt with.
So they 're stuck with him doing the refunds as these have to come from the very same account all the people payed into.

Sure, they could have left that "Phil is in charge" out, and told us a lie or something else why the progress of the refunds are beeing stalled.
But at the moment they cannot do anything themself in this regard, so why promise anything?

Exactly it's explaining exactly where things are. Sorry but for now hat part is what it is. They needed to tell folks why refunds are hung up for now. they did not call him names or respond to these meltdowns. Pretty matter of fact actually.

Dp- don't preorder
Dp- disgruntled personnel

can someone please tell me, on what page of this novel is the DP response on?

They are too professional to respond to this Pinside shitstorm.

Here's DP's email from this morning:

Dear VIPs,

We would like to inform you about the financial situation of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc.
Phil refunded some of you and tried to create panic on Pinside. For some he succeeded and we received demands for a refund. Others are fully confident in us (thank you very much!) and just want a great game.

Philip is 1/3 owner of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. (1/3 is owned by Jaap and 1/3 is owned by Barry). Philip is the administrator of the accounts of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. On December 2nd he blocked our accounts and we don’t have access anymore. That’s why we can only forward the demands for a refund to Phil (which is what we did). The refunds can only be done from the original destination of the transaction.

If you don’t feel comfortable with us, please ask for a refund. We will forward them to Phil.

If you want to keep supporting us, please stay. You won’t be sorry and we will get you a great game!

We are really sorry for this inconvenience.

Team Dutch Pinball

That response sucks, I'm sorry. It's great to give the information and an update what is going on but telling me they(which is really MY money) are being held hostage and don't have access and "Oh sorry all we can do is ask for it back" is BS. Figure it out if you want me to stick with you all, that is not reassuring in any manner.

Dear VIPs,

We want to reach out to you about the current situation involving the rumours on Pinside. We are aware of the thread and the worries over Dutch Pinball and The Big Lebowski project. It really hurts us that you are involved in this situation, which is something that should be settled in a professional, business manner. Unfortunately, we had no control over our customers being involved and we regret what is happening now. We want to assure you that we are very busy handling this situation privately and in the best possible way without discrediting anyone. As soon as we can share more information publicly, we will do so.

We know there has also been some recent speculation regarding the status of our very exciting pinball project and want to assure everyone that everything is under control without any problems. To that end, we have brought in Roger Sharpe, acclaimed licensing and marketing expert, to help us as we continue with our final approval process. Roger has extensive experience having worked on all of the Williams and Bally pinball licensing for over 12 1/2 years and his personal relationships with all of the movie studios ensures that we are right on target to bring everyone the best possible pinball product. Our apologies for any concerns that had been raised but know we are still on course and will continue to meet our deadlines and promises.

Please keep in mind that we are the guys that brought three awesome prototypes to Expo in October and to Modern Pinball NYC last weekend. We wouldn't been doing that if we had any bad intentions or wanted to defraud anyone. The only reason this is happening now is because of something that shouldn't be discussed publicly.

Again, we want to make an awesome game - and with this going on, we are even more motivated to do so.

We will answer all of your emails in the next couple of days/weeks, but we first need to deal with this situation and keep our focus on getting you your games.

Team Dutch Pinball

Dear VIPs,

We would like to inform you about the financial situation of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc.
Phil refunded some of you and tried to create panic on Pinside. For some he succeeded and we received demands for a refund. Others are fully confident in us (thank you very much!) and just want a great game.

Philip is 1/3 owner of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. (1/3 is owned by Jaap and 1/3 is owned by Barry). Philip is the administrator of the accounts of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. On December 2nd he blocked our accounts and we don’t have access anymore. That’s why we can only forward the demands for a refund to Phil (which is what we did). The refunds can only be done from the original destination of the transaction.

If you don’t feel comfortable with us, please ask for a refund. We will forward them to Phil.

If you want to keep supporting us, please stay. You won’t be sorry and we will get you a great game!

We are really sorry for this inconvenience.

Team Dutch Pinball

To clarify: I don't have a problem with the facts as they stand. I just need DP to stand up and say "We're responsible. We let this get out of hand. We're sorry. It gets better from here."

Naming Phil as the whole problem doesn't do it for me. Maybe it is mostly Phil's fault, but it doesn't matter now. They need to accept full ownership of the problem if they want to build confidence.

My question is, if they can not access it, will they honor it toward our purchase? I am sure they will but I would like to be assured of that.

thanks guys!

If you don’t feel comfortable with us, please ask for a refund. We will forward them to Phil.

Did you listen to the Nate's C2C podcasts? I am not sure what more you want!?!

Two episodes of relevance have just been uploaded.

#126 - What I thought after the NYC Modern Pinball Party and then speaking with Phil

http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/episode-126-a-very-complicated-case-maude-or-just-my-opinion-man_33980

#127 - Roger Sharpe joins us to talk TBL and licensing.

http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/episode-127-a-timely-evening-with-roger-sharpe_33981

http://www.coast2coastpinball.com

I think you're overreacting (where have I seen this before... Oh wait, I know... )

They just explain the facts and give a reason as to why this might take a few days, before people start running around again, yelling "It's been 5 hours and I haven't seen my refund yet!". If they want to refund the money (and I'm sure they want to), they have to have access to it. If Phil starts working against them, then that's something you need to know, isn't it?

If Phil puts all this inside info on Pinside, it's accepted and now that the guys from DP use Phil to explain the situation, all of a sudden it's wrong? Not a consistent way of looking at things

[IMG]:http://i.imgur.com/LBt6j.gif[/IMG]

http://www.popcorngif.com/39/popcorn-nommer/

I did. Nate is a great podcaster, and Roger is our patron saint. I don't think either of them are customers of Dutch Pinball. And I suspect both would agree that assigning blame is not the best course of action right now.

Here is my hope. They find a way to set up a new DP USA. Phil wants out and releases everything to be moved there. We start clean minus Phil . Best wishes for his health .

If this game ever comes to be I think I will purchase one. But no pre orders for me.

Where did DP assign blame? I must have missed that in one of the 1933 forum posts. I took their responses as professional and that they are moving foward in getting TBL out in a timely manner. Several pinsiders I PM'ed said that Barry responded to their specific questions over the past 2 days via email and that these folks are not asking for a refund at this time based on Barry's answers. How are DPs most recent actions not taking ownership of the situation?

HW Are you back in now?

The fact that DP cannot process refunds now is a direct result of their inability to deal with Phil's separation properly. This is the part that scares me. They've had over a month's notice that Phil wanted out, and yet Phil still has they keys to the car. Newsflash: you're doing it wrong.. very wrong.

If you cannot run a business properly in 2014, why should I believe you can run it properly in 2015?

At this point, I will buy a TBL when one exists for me to buy. Phil booted me off the train, and I think I'll stay off for now. I hope the rest of the passengers (voluntary and involuntary) do not suffer a catastrophic accident before the final destination.

They haven't laid anything out to say they are taking charge of the DP USA situation... simply pushing the buck back to Phil for these customers. That is not how a company takes ownership of a situation and shields its customers.

If they took ownership of the situation, I'd have a refund already. They basically just said "Sorry but Phil has to give you a refund"...which means my money is in limbo whether I get a refund OR stay involved.

This morning's email from DP:

"Phil refunded some of you and tried to create panic on Pinside. For some he succeeded and we received demands for a refund."

I dislike this response because it's ugly. It denies that Phil had any legitimate basis for his actions or that they have made any mistakes. It forces their customers to choose sides. That's not smart.

It demonstrates--yet again--that DP has limited experience with company leadership. I know they're brilliant guys, but there's more to running a company than making neat stuff.

_{Post edited by brundaged: corrected spelling}

The situation of this thread could be a Coen brothers film...

The only accurate part is that your money is in limbo right now, but that has always been the case the moment you sent it in.

I believe DP is taking ownership, and working to make things right. Defining taking ownership as having your refund already is very narrow.

It's clearly more problematic when a partner goes rogue.

In! No ones losing money here and it's seriousl the next number one game for a long time! That's a fact.

1945, war is over, we can move on now (post 1945 that is...)

Yea this game is way to good to not get made!

Can't wait for this game to get back on track. They now have a chance at a reset and setting it up the right way.

Because of how this all went down, if I were DP, I'd come up with a plan to disclose how the funds are going to be used and safeguarded by a third party trustee of some sort, to give confidence to the people that might want to send the money back in.

Spooky has earned the confidence of being trustees of our funds in delivering a game the way it was supposed to go. If that happens with DP and TBL, I wouldn't have a problem giving them funds without questions in the future.

For now, they should do everything in their power to make sure that people's deposits are protected and disclose the steps that they are taking to make sure they are.

And when and if someone asks for a refund, which is their policy, they should state that such refund be processed within 48 hours as a policy.

I have had to wait 9 weeks to get my TH refund back from JJP.

Curious, what do preowners have as proof of any payments that have been made to Phil? If 2/3 of DP is locked out of accounts, how do they have a clue as to whom has paid what, who has been refunded, who has repaid after being refunded, etc...?

From the outside looking in, it all seems like such a goat rodeo that anyone could claim all sorts of wild things and DP would be hard pressed to determine anything other. At the same time, how can you trust that your money is safe in any way with DP currnetly? What is your proof of payment and how secure is it?

For all the questions and concern about other manufacturers, missed deadlines, etc..., this is the first time that I have seen and example where the books a really such a mess that your money may not be secure or even properly accounted for.

For anyone still in on this, I suggest keeping multiple copies of all payments or reciepts or I am guessing just emails of what/who has your money.

Really, you of all people. You fight for the games you love. You did it with predator and Woolly but come over here with this? Fn hypocrite.
What I learned form you is some folks need to fight for the games they love.
There is certainly more in place here and game wise and capability wise.
I did pull back from a million pre orders and honestly I was chasing owning everything new. But this fro me is about a team I have faith in and a game that has to be.