Just received an email from Barry. Not promising. He told me he does not have access to the funds and that he sent my refund request to Phil and that he hopes Phil will process the refund soon. I had a bunch of follow up questions I sent him. Let's see if they are answered.

I think that's something a lot of people here forget. Phil entered this enterprise with a clear mind. I can understand that his personal situation may have changed or he got nervous about the licensing issues and he got cold feet, wanting out all of a sudden. We have no proof that "nothing" was done about this. We only have proof that Dutch Pinball first suggested that he ride it out until "his" orders were shipped to the customers, fading out his (financial) involvement this way, probably because DP did not have a replacement for him at that time. When Phil did not accept that, the people at DP needed to find another way to handle this problem (meanwhile handling all other stuff that comes with developing a pinball machine). There is no proof that they did not undertake any actions during these six weeks, there is only proof that this dispute was not solved in this timeframe. There may even be much more communication than Phil wants to show us? After that, Phil derailed the whole situation with his deep throat act...

But, in Holland we call that "koffiedik kijken" and that does not contribute to the matter

What is worse is that the hand with the gun is a bad photoshop insert job. Explain how you get that arm angle without the shoulder being elevated on the same side?

This thread took me longer to read than it took me to watch the movie. Apart from the personal ordeal / disaster Phil is going trough, it made me laugh more often than the movie. The quotes, the rollercoaster of assumptions, conjectures, theories, and what not: epic.

On a more serious note:
I understand that people wants their deposit back. The deposit was a matter of trust to begin with, what happened puts a big dent in that trust, no matter how much of whose side turns out to be true. (As if we will ever find out.) I hope DP have done or will do enough to earn back this trust. I hope TBL can be made and DP can in time develop into more than a boutique producer. Pinball can only benefit from that.

Roger stated in the interview that he had spoken to UNIVERSAL directly and they have no intention of pulling the licence. Also that they KNEW about the Expo and NYC party.

This statement discredits Phils "UNI didn't know" Sure there are some things that need approval..Roger also says that he has seen paper trails on things that have been signed off by UNIVERSAL. Of course that is significant and FULL of substance to me.

Not really sure how you can say this and defend Skit B! And I am still in on both!

thats clearly not true do to the pot, gun, Kahlua, time mag...

That is not good.

Somebody post the kindergarten cliff notes for TFA so he doesn't fall asleep trying to figure it out

It doesn't really, it's just what side you choose to believe.

I'm not into the details, but did the proto have a visible Kahlua bottle? I recollect a playfield with a turned (half visible) bottle? Not sure there and it might be different on one proto than on the other..

Roger may also have stated this because they have found a way to solve these license issues and made (internal) decisions about it. I don't think we should go micromanaging everything on the machine now. I think it's normal some things are being sacrificed because license owners demand it, other things might be pushed through by Roger in some sort of compromise. Only thing we can do is wait and see.

I am sure the community will come up with replacement mods for these items. Not a deal killer IMO.

This thread is an example of what would happen if Colorado and Washington decided to make pot illegal again.

There are no "sides" here. There is only a pinball machine that most of you like a lot. There is also the choice of going in and (resume your) pre-order or wait and see if you want to be safe. All of you that want a TBL will get one eventually, so you don't have to choose a side here.

If you persist that there are "sides", then you're on the paranoid side. In that case: no need to put in a pre-order and keep wining about it for the next half year. If you have pre-ordered already, just pull out, nobody will hunt you down to kick you in the nuts, you'll be fine and you'll be much cooler about it.

In this specific title, what is the benefit of being in/preordering? I honestly have not kept up and I may have missed it.

Is the preored risk for a custom rug and special trim?

I was still under the impression this is an unlimited game and anyone can buy after they are out?

is this correct?

Yep: the rug and chrome trim. But wasn't the pricetag lower for early pre-orders as well? Not sure about that.

The game is unlimited.

It took some calculations but finally found out, Walter has 2 elbows. During the movie he wears his watch on his left wrist, so he is holding the gun in his left hand.
It must be like this:

Walter-has-2-elbows.jpg

The downside is if you order when the game goes into production in Q2 then send 10K followed by a long wait till 2016 to see your machine.

Listening to the C2C podcast now. the first one. I totally agree with Nate. Nothing is Fucked here dude, nothing is Fucked. But seriously, when you have something this awesome, it is worth a lot of money. Even if there are a lot of people that get their money refunded, this will still happen and everyone will come back in droves and get this game. With something this big, I would be stunned if there were not outside silent investors in this project.

Yes price was $500 less for pre orders.

Whether Phil can just quit or not, he did. To leave him with access to people's money is irresponsible.

We can play the what if game all day. In the end DP has a fiduciary responsibility to is clients and they mishandled it. I'm not saying they're bad guys with ill intent; they simply handled it poorly. Every company should have exit strategies for the principles involved. THAT is business 101. Why we're debating that point or thumbing me down over it is perplexing at best.

I'm sorry..but this is completely wrong...

So if someone wakes up tomorrow and decides to put your face on a line of butt plugs you're obligated to say yes because you're an ass? You have this sense of entitlement that I just don't "get".

I had to look at this page 'in-private" to see who you were quoting. Now I remembered why he's on my ignore list.

Great retort. So business don't have exit strategies? I know I have one. Are you saying money wasnt mishandled? As you said Phil can't quit so he is DP right? So again where am I wrong. Enlighten me on how DP euro can wash their hands of responsibility of the Phil situation. My guess is you are assuming I am attacking DP. I want the game. I also want them to demonstrate I can trust them with my money. I'm not sure why you're taking this personal. At the end of the day I respect your differing take on it as well as the others that feel similarly and I have expressed that in my posts. I don't think you are affording me the same courtesy.

WTF??? How is what skins posted completely wrong. He stated both are at fault and you want to point the finger only at Phil? Just wow. Smoke em if you got em.

CAN'T....STOP....READING....THREAD....
a-clockwork-orange-2.jpg

Nothing said about a deal killer, just a response to the comment everything shown has been ok'd

This is the one piece of news I'm hanging on to. Patiently wait till this mess gets sorted out, early birds get their game, sort out early problems (all games have), then purchase one. 0 risk all reward.

Hope this gets made.

It is called an agenda. Or more specifically a political agenda. You are not in line with what they are pushing, and therefore everything you say must be attacked and dealt with harshly until you comply or give up. Capitulation or departure will both be seen as a victory for the other side as they write the history of this.

Totally agree. However, how do we know that DP didn't try to deny him access to the DP USA paypal account, and it proved difficult since that account was in Phil's email and Phil's SSN.

You would think they would know all the passwords and what not to be able to have access to it, but we also have noted that we believe they messed up other things that are business 101 already.

I've read enough of this to know this and say just this...

I agree with those that have said that it was irresponsible for DP to not have an exit plan in place for any one particular member with something this complex. In the little business that I run, we call it the "bus" plan.

If I get run over by a bus, my partner knows what should happen with the business.

This doesn't mean that there is any problems with the project itself by the way, but as others said, I hate the crowdfunding idea for things like this because I don't see the business plan up front, and I'm essentially buying into it like I do. No matter what the intentions, it is only so long before some company completely burns it's customers by doing things this way, and the pinball world is currently full of way too much of it. If DP went belly up (and I'm NOT saying that they will) and couldn't refund the money, how would everyone feel?

Based on some responses, as long as they got their shirt and rug it would be ok.

Probably like shit. But that is the risk you are taking with making deposits to these types of companies that use crowdfunding to help with start up expenses.

Dear VIPs,

We would like to inform you about the financial situation of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc.
Phil refunded some of you and tried to create panic on Pinside. For some he succeeded and we received demands for a refund. Others are fully confident in us (thank you very much!) and just want a great game.

Philip is 1/3 owner of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. (1/3 is owned by Jaap and 1/3 is owned by Barry). Philip is the administrator of the accounts of Dutch Pinball USA, Inc. On December 2nd he blocked our accounts and we don’t have access anymore. That’s why we can only forward the demands for a refund to Phil (which is what we did). The refunds can only be done from the original destination of the transaction.

If you don’t feel comfortable with us, please ask for a refund. We will forward them to Phil.

If you want to keep supporting us, please stay. You won’t be sorry and we will get you a great game!

We are really sorry for this inconvenience.

Team Dutch Pinball

Agreed. Phil very likely is denying access to the account. That is where DP euro needs to step up, whether through the courts and an injunction or mediation. In the end Phil exposed weaknesses in their corporate structure that need immediate rectification to instill trust. Before all this, the perception was DP had their shit together and were doing it the right way. That illusion is gone. The time is now to restore the faith they once had in the buying public.

**edit a post above me from Barry indicates Phil is withholding the passwords. Bully on him and bully on DP euro. If they were 1/3 partners in DP usa there is absolutely no reason everyone didn't have access to that account.**

Part of me wants to stay cuz I do want the game....but part of me wants to sit it out till its done - cuz at this point it seems like the rational thing to do...I asked for a refund, but I'm at the whim of Phil here, though...so ...I guess I'm in till I'm out.

why?

If the risk was listed as 100% in Phil's name (thanks to my SSN being used in the account), why doesn't he have the right to deny them access to the account? Not saying that they would, but if the other principals took the money out of the account with no intention to send those people machines, it is going to show up as 100% on Phil's back.

At no point has money been misappropriated or stolen. Where are you getting that.

haha. I just read that too. Looks like my inclination was spot on. I don't get that lucky often. I do think that message from DP should elevate some concerns. that, and Roger saying he is confident that his skills will get them the best licensing possible for the game.

If I had a deposit tied up in this game that I wanted back, my advice would be to just wait until the Phil situation is handled and the rest of DP gets access to those funds. Then I bet your refund request gets granted.

I agree. Please don't take me wrong. I'm not passing judgement. If I was on the hook 100% I would probably do the same. Still doesn't change that it should have never been that way in the first place. It goes to further illustrate the mismanagement of the customers money from the get go.

Phil himself said Barry stole 60k. Barry didn't say "nope" at any point. Yes, only one side of the story, but it's the only side we publicly have right now.

Please read the whole thread before commenting.

I never said that it was, but again - do you KNOW this, or do you just FEEL this? If it was misappropriated, Phil would get 100% of the blame. And, again, Phil as of 6 weeks ago is no longer part of the company, so that feels unfair.

But hey, my skin ain't in it, and there is a rug to be had. I'll stop now.

Yeah, I hear ya. Asking for my refund was a pretty tough thing to do, especially after sticking it out for all of phil's rant, but I'm glad I did. I just wish that money was back in my bank now and not sitting in paypal limbo at the whim of phil.

I'm staying in! I have always wanted to invest and forward the small guys in pinball from when Jersey Jack started out right up to DP and beyond. Is it risky financially speaking.....of course. Do you take a risk of loosing it all...yes. Is it the smartest thing in the world to do.....no, however this is my hobby and the only way I think it gets better is if some of these new guys survive and create competition, which in the end is to the benefit of all us who are truly in this hobby for the right reasons. If you can't afford too do this that is fine, but do not crap on all those who are willing to take the risk and truly have pinball and the betterment of the hobby in their hearts.
I remember quite a few crapping on JJP the whole way through and no matter what you say I am now looking forward to number 2 and Pats number 3. Will I sit here and say screw you guys that didn't help him get to where he is you didn't believe therefore you shouldn't be able to buy.....hell no, however I still don't get the reasoning to do the opposite except to later say "I told you so" I'm here to forward and replace the "old guys" with new talent and if that means a bit of up front risk then I'm ok with this. Hate long posts please forgive. Ice, you were one of these, now I see wavering, come back to the dark side!

Exactly. That's all that I'm getting at too. Since it *was* set up that way, I don't see what else should have been done.

Honestly, I don't know if it was mismanagement from the get go, and I don't know if it is mismanagement of the customer's money. I run a business like I've said, and sometimes we do take pre-orders, and when we do, we might take some of that pre-order money to pay off a bill that we have immediately for something else. That doesn't mean that we're mismanaging the money - and we have always come through with our products in a timely fashion.

Even if 100% of the TBL money was spent on other stuff, as long as TBL showed up, non of it was mismanaged. It's a personnel mismanagement issue at the core of it.

I have read this whole thread, I have been here the entire time. Phil said Barry took the money but did not state that he stole it. For all we know that was his compensation or reimbursement for funds he put into the company. Phil never said he stole the money. He said that he had to help make up that money, but again we have no idea that it was stolen. Maybe you should read the thread before you comment.

Please everyone stop saying Phil left the company 6 weeks ago. You don't just leave a company you own and expect it to stop your responsibility with a lousy email. It needs to be done in a legal manner and that has yet to occur. Sorry but it is on Phil just as much as it is every other owner of the company.

FFS.

"all to cover his theft"

I would say that implies theft, no?

No. Phil EXPLAINED it as theft. If you want to believe Phil, that's your prerogative, but it does not mean that it's a FACT.

Theft: the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

No. Phil is extremely out of touch with the way the business world works if he conducts himself in the manner he has and his interpretation of how things should work is nothing short of delusional. If you read into his ranting and come away with what you think is truth, well, your just as delusional.