(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 36 of 77.
-1
#1751 5 years ago
Quoted from madscientist101:

I have sent Phil several messages asking for a refund and he never responded and this was a few days ago when he was posting on here like crazy. He had plenty of time to vent on pinside yet he would not answer my PM's with a simple no or a yes regarding a refund.

I wouldn't waste my time with Phil....send a note to Barry

#1752 5 years ago

Hole. Lee. Crap.
I truly hope that you guys that leave your ante on the table win your hand.

#1753 5 years ago

To Phils credit he quit 6 weeks ago.

#1754 5 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

I wouldn't waste my time with Phil....send a note to Barry

Barry has no control of DP USA paypal, how is he going to refund our payments to DP USA?

#1755 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

To Phils credit he quit 6 weeks ago.

You can't just quit a company in which you are a partial owner.

-1
#1756 5 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

Barry has no control of DP USA paypal, how is he going to refund our payments to DP USA?

Because he is straightening things out. Dutch Pinball USA is owned by Jaap and Barry now. Things will get sorted.

#1757 5 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

I wouldn't waste my time with Phil....send a note to Barry

I just sent Barry a e-mail thanks... I paid through paypal using my AMEX so even though I am past the 45 days to dispute with paypal I will just call AMEX if Barry doesn't send me my refund by this Friday. I am two deposits in ($4,500) what a shit storm this is.

#1758 5 years ago

If Barry has read this whole thread I bet his tongue is really sore. I'm sure there are some inconvenient truths posted in here, but in the same vein there has been some incredibly stupid things posted. It has to be extremely difficult to not respond to those.

#1759 5 years ago

Phil never owned part of the company, I believe he stated as much somewhere in this shitstorm of a thread.

#1760 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Phil never owned part of the company, I believe he stated as much somewhere in this shitstorm of a thread.

It sounded like he was in for a third of the US entity, but not in on the Dutch side.

#1761 5 years ago

I emailed barry as well, so hopefully he can help get this all sorted out sooner rather than later.

#1762 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Can someone make me a t-shirt (large) for reading this whole thread? Anybody else do it?

Don't tempt me..

12
#1763 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

OK..you got me.

I think my argument still stands, unless you believe a) Phil is out and out lying about everything AND b) fabricating the evidence.

1) We know Phil quit very publicly Nov. 1.
2) We know, thanks to the screenshot of the email, that Barry on Dec. 4 suggested he STILL maintain the funds and operations of DP-USA though the production of the games (while they continue to funnel pre-order money to the DP-USA account until Feb 1. 2015) Despite very publicly quitting Nov. 1. (That is the only evidence we have of Barry working towards a "solution".)
3) We know that, at least until yesterday, Phil was STILL in charge of DP-USA and all the DP-USA money.
4) We know that Phil very much wanted to get out.

Even if you think the rest of it is lies or exaggeration, unless you believe he fabricated the dec. 4 email, we KNOW that Barry's idea of resolving a situation with a partner who quit over a month earlier was to tell him "no, stay on until it's done, because we outvote you".

If you believe he fabricated the dec. 4 email, then I'm not sure any evidence would sway you.

I might, however, be able to sell you a very special "Go Team DP" custom rug from http://www.customlogorugstore.com but you'd have to pay upfront.

#1764 5 years ago
Quoted from sammiesguys:

I didn't make the judgement as to whether or not it was theft. The former employee (and current partner of DP USA) did. The same guy who (insanely) still had the ability to refund thousands of dollars six weeks after announcing he was leaving. All of that is very worrying.

I don't need to control the company (in fact, I don't want to whatsoever). But from what I've seen, I have no interest in giving out money with these issues out there.

Actually, I don't know about the refund thing. It depends on how they're structured. Lets say that Phil is the sole shareholder in DP USA or that it's a d/b/a. He accepts orders from a ton of people and forwards those orders to DP BV. He then decides he wants to quit. If Barry/Jaap have no ownership stake in DP USA, are they obligated to purchase it from him? No. DP USA appeared to be a DP BV subsidiary but it sounds like DP USA was just a reseller. If so, then the fact that Phil retained control of those assets doesn't surprise me at all.

So I didn't mean to put words in your mouth dude. I hope TBL gets made and one of you sells me one when/if you get tired of it.

-1
#1765 5 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

I think my argument still stands, unless you believe a) Phil is out and out lying about everything AND b) fabricating the evidence.

1) We know Phil quit very publicly Nov. 1.
2) We know, thanks to the screenshot of the email, that Barry on Dec. 4 suggested he STILL maintain the funds and operations of DP-USA though the production of the games (while they continue to funnel pre-order money to the DP-USA account until Feb 1. 2015) Despite very publicly quitting Nov. 1. (That is the only evidence we have of Barry working towards a "solution".)
3) We know that, at least until yesterday, Phil was STILL in charge of DP-USA and all the DP-USA money.
4) We know that Phil very much wanted to get out.

Even if you think the rest of it is lies or exaggeration, unless you believe he fabricated the dec. 4 email, we KNOW that Barry's idea of resolving a situation with a partner who quit over a month earlier was to tell him "no, stay on until it's done, because we outvote you".

If you believe he fabricated the dec. 4 email, then I'm not sure any evidence would sway you.

I might, however, be able to sell you a very special "Go Team DP" custom rug from http://www.customlogorugstore.com but you'd have to pay upfront.

Is it possible that the information you have is philtered?

There may be relevant information from the other side that hasn't been shared with you.

#1766 5 years ago

This was my question: Why would you put your own money into a company you didn't own a part of? Sounds shady to me.

Phil's response: I did it because they were my friends. I told them on day one that I would even work for them for free.

Maybe im misunderstanding but Phil's mistake was putting his social security number on a PayPal account for DP USA.

#1767 5 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Wtf seriously? He ain't getting back to me after he emailed me yesterday morning giving me Phil's personal email and telling me to get refunded from him.
Rod

Got my Dec 4th payment refunded - no email from paypal nor anyone else - went into pp to start copying transaction #'s.

I assume this came from DP BV.

Waiting to hear from Phil.

Ain't enjoying the ride.

-Rod

12
#1768 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Can someone make me a t-shirt (large) for reading this whole thread? Anybody else do it?

I'm actually kind of sick of this thread, but I'm afraid something interesting will happen in 10 pages and I'll have to read them all to gain context.

Am I the only one who got to work late because it took an extra 20 minutes of reading this thread while on the commode in the morning?

#1769 5 years ago

It's great toilet material for sure

38
#1770 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

It's great toilet material for sure

I can say the same thing about most of your posts

#1771 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

It's great toilet material for sure

True that.

Toilet.jpg

#1772 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

I can say the same thing about most of your posts

Really? Last time I checked my posts actually have constructive responses. Love you to man

#1773 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

I can say the same thing about most of your posts

Fixed that for you Alex....

Mod Edit: In Pinchroma's quoted text, changed "ALL" back to "most". Please do not alter the words of other pinsiders when quoting them.

Post edited by moderator: Please do not change the words when you quote someone else' post.

#1774 5 years ago

i would be happy to pick up games 1 and 2 from saturday and store in my collection, can save money on shipping back to the netherlands .... We can even work on some code while its here ...

#1775 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Really? Last time I checked my posts actually have constructive responses. Love you to man

No if they did they would not create a lynch mob whenever you post. I think one day Kaneda pinside will end up turning you into a much better person.

We can dream at least.

#1777 5 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

*opens door*
Hey everybody! Good to see you all. Been awhile. What's new? Think I'll get back into.......
*looks around*
.....err........
....ummm.......
*closes door*

Not sure about everyone else but I miss you... get back in here!

#1778 5 years ago
Quoted from btw75:

You can't just quit a company in which you are a partial owner.

True, but if I owned 1/3rd of a company and a partner was willing to surrender his 1/3rd FOR FREE TO ME, I would take over his portion of the company if I thought the company is a profitable, going concern. The only reason I wouldn't take it is if the company ownership is actually a liability and I think the thing is going tits up. Phil's story, if true, is that he invested $100,000 into the company and wanted to leave without recouping any of that money. How is that not a dream scenario for Barry and Jaap?

#1779 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

A scam is is basically a deceptive way to take peoples money with no intention of providing what was paid for... are you saying that you don't think DP had any intention to make any machines and were purely taking money from pre-orders to steal? If that's the case, why are we still hearing from them? Surely they'd have shut up shop now and vanished with all our cash? Personally I think they're actually planning to build TBL myself... and then give it to people who paid for it...

You actually touch on the biggest problem with kickstarters and other kinds of free money, and Kevin covered the other side of the same coin.

Sure, I can start a kickstarter and intend to make a product and have the best intentions. But when the going gets tough I have to decide whether to push through or....?

Well, in the case of a traditional business where I put in my own start-up capital: lose all my time, hard work and money.

In the case of a kickstarter: Lose other people's money. I was probably being paid out of the funds for time and hard work while "trying" to develop the product. Oh well, too bad, didn't work out. Take a nice little vacation with the few thousand that's left and then go back to idea mode. Maybe next time it will work.

#1780 5 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

Is it possible that the information you have is philtered?
There may be relevant information from the other side that hasn't been shared with you.

Oh absolutely. I think it is entirely possible that they could have been trying to work out some exit strategy for quite some time after dec. 4 with Phil, and he just neglected to mention that (this scenario would also require him to be willfully lying in other parts of his "Testimony", including his one sided text message screen shots, but still, it's possible).

But I think it is highly unlikely he fabricated the dec 4 email, and I think the language in that email is very clear about how Barry wanted to handle Phil's departure more than a month after he quit.

If you ignore everything else, that email clearly shows Barry saying his "compromise" is for Phil, who already quit, to stay on until production is completed on all pre-orders collected through Feb. 1, 2015. That lends a LOT of credibility to Phil's basic explanation for why he did what he did. He wanted out, they wouldn't take DP-USA back, he gave them an ultimatum, and then pulled the trigger. Since they have now, indeed, taken over DP-USA, it appears as if he got what he wanted at the end of this nasty game of chicken. I think they could have saved everyone a whole lot of heartache had they just done this back on dec. 4th instead of just saying "No".

You can allow for all sorts of he said she said crap in this story line, but that email , not Phil's interpretation of it but my reading of the actual verbage, tells me what I need to know about DP.

Perhaps their motivations were similar, they were all just good friends and just wanted everything to work out, but the fact remains that a month after a disgruntled partner quit in a very public manner, their immediate reaction was not to secure their customer's funds and the assets of DP-USA, but rather to insist that he un-quit and keep going and controlling the funds while they continued selling pre-orders and sending invoices. Because it was easier than dealing with it.

THAT is not confidence inspiring. The rest is just pinside sports.

#1781 5 years ago

So on a positive note, I am really interested to see the changes in artwork after what Universal requested.

I was never wild about the marijuana leaf. When I think of weed and TBL, I think of the Dude lying in the tub and using his hair clip as a roach clip. That's classic stuff.

Also the pistol seemed too prominent without the context of an angry Walter.

These guys have artistic talent so it will be great to see what they come up with. (Freek? Omg is that really his name? how awesome is that!?)

#1782 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

A scam is is basically a deceptive way to take peoples money with no intention of providing what was paid for... are you saying that you don't think DP had any intention to make any machines and were purely taking money from pre-orders to steal? If that's the case, why are we still hearing from them? Surely they'd have shut up shop now and vanished with all our cash? Personally I think they're actually planning to build TBL myself... and then give it to people who paid for it...

It sure makes it easier to scam people. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

-4
#1783 5 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

Phil posted the full text of the communication, as well as a screen shot of that "offer".
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-usa-refund-still-want-the-game/page/22#post-2107341
https://img-f.pinside.com/201412/2107341/332384.png
The offer was (paraphrasing here):
"It seems unlikely you will find an american to take over DP-USA, so we feel it will be *easiest* if you just stay in charge of DP-USA, continue taking pre-order money until feb 1, 2015, Pay any invoices that we send you from said pre-order funds, and then after we build and deliver said games, only THEN we will dissolve DP-USA and let you out."
So that was the "Offer" Phil got on dec 4. Barry though Phil, a disgruntled partner who just wanted out, would accept staying on the hook for all the liability the company had created (and was continuing to create through Feb 1, 2015), and was fine leaving him in charge of the DP-USA funds for the duration. Because it was easier than letting him go and going through the process of removing him from the company.
Unless Phil doctored the email image we have, or there was some other offer on dec 4, or he was not truthful about Barry's first communication to him after all this started, we are left with the impression that Barry still thought this was a viable solution AFTER Phil started making good on his threat to go public with all the dirty laundry.
To me, he gave what I think was a very foolish "offer" and then called Phil's bluff when he found it unacceptable and issued his ultimatum. Then After Phil made good on his threat, Barry asked him to stop and reference that dec. 4 offer as still valid, despite the ample evidence that there is no way that would work anymore, if ever. The only thing that got Phil to stop was actually taking the action he wanted in the first place (as evidenced by corporate ownership changes occurring in wyoming or wherever they are incorporated), which means Barry made a very bad bet and lost.
I am not saying that Phil did something wise, or noble, or that what he did was good for himself, TBL pinball enthusiasts, or DP. There is plenty of reason to get mad at Phil and call what he did unprofessional and speculate on what this does to his future employment prospects etc, but Phil isn't currently asking any of us to hire him again.
DP IS currently asking us to give them money again, after showing extremely poor judgement in managing the money, if by nothing else than by thinking is was a viable option to still leave Phil with the keys to the kingdom, after he had quit, and even after he went public with his accusations.
Regardless of who's fault you think this is, to ignore the above because of enthusiasm for a rug and a name drop in an email is to ignore what is at the heart of the implosion here.

Although Phil is an unstable nut-job, Barry is definitely the idiot of all idiots for not seeing that.

No one looks good here.

#1784 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Take a nice little vacation with the few thousand that's left and then go back to idea mode. Maybe next time it will work.

I actually know a case where this has happened. Scary...

EDIT : Completely unrelated to this thread, just to clarify...

#1785 5 years ago

das cray

#1786 5 years ago

What if the reason they didn't want Phil to leave is because Phil made a mess of the business and that's why he wanted out. He seemed responsible for the USA business and also posted that there may be an issue with the IRS. If that's the case then maybe that's why they wanted him to get out so easily. That would be a good deal: first mess up the company and then leave... After this the USA company is even in more problems, so I somehow get why they didn't just let him leave. Also taking over an Inc. when you're Dutch is probably not that easy and will take time...

#1787 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

What if the reason they didn't want Phil to leave is because Phil made a mess of the business and that's why he wanted out. He seemed responsible for the USA business and also posted that there may be an issue with the IRS. If that's the case then maybe that's why they wanted him to get out so easily. That would be a good deal: first mess up the company and then leave... After this the USA company is even in more problems, so I somehow get why they didn't just let him leave. Also taking over an Inc. when you're Dutch is probably not that easy and will take time...

Very possible considering we've only heard one side of the story. Got a personal email (reply to one I sent) from Barry earlier today so I am encouraged. Staying in for now. 3 deposits deep.

#1788 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

What if the reason they didn't want Phil to leave is because Phil made a mess of the business and that's w He seemed responsible for the USA business and also posted that there may be an issue with the IRS. If that's the case then maybe that's why they wanted him to get out so easily. That would be a good deal: first mess up the company and then leave... After this the USA company is even in more problems, so I somehow get why they didn't just let him leave. Also taking over an Inc. when you're Dutch is probably not that easy and will take time...

I'm losing intrest in this topic but...

So you're supposing he made a mess of DP USA and potentially created an IRS issue and they STILL left him holding the purse strings to DP USA deposits? Surely you can see how flawed that logic is and if true, only further demonstrates that any perceived misdeeds wasn't mutually exclusive to Phil's actions. I don't see how this can be spun to anything other than piss poor corporate management on everyone's part. It only serves to justify people's concerns in DP's ability to be good stewards of the money sent to them regardless of the figurehead.

#1789 5 years ago

I had never seen The Big Lebowski, and this thread made me decide to watch it last night. I made it about 2/3 through it, then had to sleep. I will try to finish it tonight and report back. So far, it has been mildly amusing.

#1790 5 years ago
Quoted from dkpinball:

I'm actually kind of sick of this thread, but I'm afraid something interesting will happen in 10 pages and I'll have to read them all to gain context.
Am I the only one who got to work late because it took an extra 20 minutes of reading this thread while on the commode in the morning?

this.

11
#1791 5 years ago
Quoted from Nexyss:

I had never seen The Big Lebowski, and this thread made me decide to watch it last night. I made it about 2/3 through it, then had to sleep. I will try to finish it tonight and report back. So far, it has been mildly amusing.

After you finish it. Watch it 10 more times, then report back. You're out of you element until then.

#1792 5 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

After you finish it. Watch it 10 more times, then report back. You're out of you element until then.

It's an acquired taste. Need to watch several times.........

#1793 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Not sure about everyone else but I miss you... get back in here!

I miss ole Jules too.
I just figured I had gotten thrown on his ignore list.
Welcome back !

19
#1794 5 years ago

The first viewing you're focusing on the plot, which is OK, but nothing amazing. Subsequent viewings you realize that the dialogue is fucking amazing.

#1795 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The NY party was totally unnecessary and stupid. They had the games at Expo just a couple months ago, there was zero reason to fly them back to the US. That's not a free trip, it costs money

Pretty sure at least one machine stayed in chicago. Scott Denesi is local and he's working on code, need a machine to test out code.
http://www.thebiglebowskipinball.com/about_us

Of course that doesn't excuse 2 guys paying for airfare to fly back. I think the machine sells itself, why squander money to promote it?

-2
#1796 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Pfuuu Americans can't read.
There is a lot of private money invested even before a single pre-order was taken!

Typical dutch ...!

Post edited by moderator: No name calling please

#1797 5 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Aurich said:

The NY party was totally unnecessary and stupid. They had the games at Expo just a couple months ago, there was zero reason to fly them back to the US. That's not a free trip, it costs money

Unnecessary? Maybe but that SantaCon sh*t was funny as hell. Drunk Santa's walking the streets until after 2AM. PRICELESS !!

#1798 5 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Pretty sure at least one machine stayed in chicago. Scott Denesi is local and he's working on code, need a machine to test out code.
http://www.thebiglebowskipinball.com/about_us
Of course that doesn't excuse 2 guys paying for airfare to fly back. I think the machine sells itself, why squander money to promote it?

Kinda glad they did go to NY. They had already cancelled Houston. I was there hoping to see TBL. If they had skipped a second event in a row, I'd be even more worried about all this.

#1799 5 years ago

OP, time to change the name of the thread from:

"DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game"

to

"DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game....but thank god I got my money out."

#1800 5 years ago

10 minutes of worldwide silence ?

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