(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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#1701 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The issue is that by doing that they risked Universal getting pissed off. I don't think anyone was going to get sued or anything ridiculous like that. But they could have potentially decided the liability of this company representing their brand was too high and pulled the plug.
That's the main source of conflict. And I might have some details wrong, I don't have all sides of the story. The point is that while there was some rule bending, and possibly issues, no one is saying they didn't have the license. It just hasn't finished the approval process.

Thanks.. I'd been told to read up on this but the thread looked like "War and Peace".. LOL

I can't help but wonder if Gary Stern would approach them and try to snafu the deal? That would be the ultimate business move. If the rumors are true that he can re-run LOTR the same time the Hobbit comes out, he's not pulling any punches against his competitors. Pretty interesting stuff.

#1702 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It's already put to bed, an LLC is the best option, period, unless you are going to be a publicly traded company which requires a C-corp. blockquote>

I agree that LLC is probably the best route most of the time, but that is not always the case. That is what I am trying to help with.

What about when owners don't want to be subject to SE tax? or when the owners want to have disproportionate stake in the company? Not as black and white is all I am saying. Depending on your individual situation, you might be better (or required) to start one entity over the other.

#1703 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

You probably haven't heard about Julian Moore, who is a L'Oréal spokeswoman, and they have approval rights over her public image.

Is this what Phil was referring to when he spoke about the difficult cast member during the Expo seminar?

What about the 20 songs? Is that licensing final? Phil also mentioned GM (the Dude's car) and Brunswick being on board. Any word on that being locked in?

23
#1704 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

I guess Barry thinks he's harmed the business some what. Also according to the facts (and not guesses) he had an offer at least 12 day prior to this public melt down.

Phil posted the full text of the communication, as well as a screen shot of that "offer".

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-usa-refund-still-want-the-game/page/22#post-2107341

https://img-f.pinside.com/201412/2107341/332384.png

The offer was (paraphrasing here):

"It seems unlikely you will find an american to take over DP-USA, so we feel it will be *easiest* if you just stay in charge of DP-USA, continue taking pre-order money until feb 1, 2015, Pay any invoices that we send you from said pre-order funds, and then after we build and deliver said games, only THEN we will dissolve DP-USA and let you out."

So that was the "Offer" Phil got on dec 4. Barry though Phil, a disgruntled partner who just wanted out, would accept staying on the hook for all the liability the company had created (and was continuing to create through Feb 1, 2015), and was fine leaving him in charge of the DP-USA funds for the duration. Because it was easier than letting him go and going through the process of removing him from the company.

Unless Phil doctored the email image we have, or there was some other offer on dec 4, or he was not truthful about Barry's first communication to him after all this started, we are left with the impression that Barry still thought this was a viable solution AFTER Phil started making good on his threat to go public with all the dirty laundry.

To me, he gave what I think was a very foolish "offer" and then called Phil's bluff when he found it unacceptable and issued his ultimatum. Then After Phil made good on his threat, Barry asked him to stop and reference that dec. 4 offer as still valid, despite the ample evidence that there is no way that would work anymore, if ever. The only thing that got Phil to stop was actually taking the action he wanted in the first place (as evidenced by corporate ownership changes occurring in wyoming or wherever they are incorporated), which means Barry made a very bad bet and lost.

I am not saying that Phil did something wise, or noble, or that what he did was good for himself, TBL pinball enthusiasts, or DP. There is plenty of reason to get mad at Phil and call what he did unprofessional and speculate on what this does to his future employment prospects etc, but Phil isn't currently asking any of us to hire him again.

DP IS currently asking us to give them money again, after showing extremely poor judgement in managing the money, if by nothing else than by thinking is was a viable option to still leave Phil with the keys to the kingdom, after he had quit, and even after he went public with his accusations.

Regardless of who's fault you think this is, to ignore the above because of enthusiasm for a rug and a name drop in an email is to ignore what is at the heart of the implosion here.

#1705 4 years ago

For anyone that wants to start a business. Keep this on file and discuss with your current or future CPA if you have any questions. This will give lots of good information on your different options side by side.

http://www.ariccicpa.com/Downloads-pdf/Entity_Comparison_Chart.pdf

#1706 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Yeah, have to agree with this. The NY party was totally unnecessary and stupid. They had the games at Expo just a couple months ago, there was zero reason to fly them back to the US. That's not a free trip, it costs money, it costs time, and since they're still showing the unapproved assets it's a risk to the project.
"Barry is super busy and shouldn't have to deal with this" rings hollow if he has time to party overseas.
Time to just focus on the task at hands guys.
And edible are way too hard to titrate, vaping ++

Just to fill in some blanks: the games WERE already in the US, they aren't flown in and out. There are 5 prototypes of which there are some in The States and they stay there for promotional purposes as far as I know.

-5
#1707 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

Phil posted the full text of the communication, as well as a screen shot of that "offer".
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dp-usa-refund-still-want-the-game/page/22#post-2107341
https://img-f.pinside.com/201412/2107341/332384.png
The offer was (paraphrasing here):
"It seems unlikely you will find an american to take over DP-USA, so we feel it will be *easiest* if you just stay in charge of DP-USA, continue taking pre-order money until feb 1, 2015, Pay any invoices that we send you from said pre-order funds, and then after we build and deliver said games, only THEN we will dissolve DP-USA and let you out."
So that was the "Offer" Phil got on dec 4. Barry though Phil, a disgruntled partner who just wanted out, would accept staying on the hook for all the liability the company had created (and was continuing to create through Feb 1, 2015), and was fine leaving him in charge of the DP-USA funds for the duration. Because it was easier than letting him go and going through the process of removing him from the company.
Unless Phil doctored the email image we have, or there was some other offer on dec 4, or he was not truthful about Barry's first communication to him after all this started, we are left with the impression that Barry still thought this was a viable solution AFTER Phil started making good on his threat to go public with all the dirty laundry.
To me, he gave what I think was a very foolish "offer" and then called Phil's bluff when he found it unacceptable and issued his ultimatum. Then After Phil made good on his threat, Barry asked him to stop and reference that dec. 4 offer as still valid, despite the ample evidence that there is no way that would work anymore, if ever. The only thing that got Phil to stop was actually taking the action he wanted in the first place (as evidenced by corporate ownership changes occurring in wyoming or wherever they are incorporated), which means Barry made a very bad bet and lost.

And that's why you should never jump to conclusions when you only have one side of the story, regardless of what you think about the offer, they were trying to mend things and come up with a solution to the problem.

13
#1708 4 years ago

image.jpg
Iron Maiden please.

#1709 4 years ago

I requested refunds for two machines via an email to Barry and Phil. I will report back the response I get from them. At this point I can not trust a company that is in disarray and would prefer to wait until the project has progressed further and these details are all worked out. There is literally no point in risking 10k at this point.

#1710 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Obviously marketing and sales are still a key activity

Shouldn't the key activity being the production of a finished game, *then* marketing and sales of said game?

The reason the whole Phil thing resonates with people is that, based on the public behavior of DP, it makes sense. Announcing new products before finishing the last one, spending money and time on in-person shows, finally shipping a product that is unfinished, not answering emails, etc.

#1711 4 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

Is this what Phil was referring to when he spoke about the difficult cast member during the Expo seminar?
What about the 20 songs? Is that licensing final? Phil also mentioned GM (the Dude's car) and Brunswick being on board. Any word on that being locked in?

AFAIK, the 20 songs are licensed as a song album. Under Dutch law that is relatively simple, all you have to do is pay an amount of fees and you're allowed to use the full songs.

#1712 4 years ago

In the grand scheme of things, this "event" is probably a good thing for DP and for customers. Yes, in the short term it slows them down a bit. But it forces DP to be more accountable to their customers and likely means that they have to put more of their own money at risk, which adds incentive for them to deliver. As long as they can deliver great products, then ultimately their sales should not suffer. They appear to be committed to moving forward, which is great. Let's hope there are no other big surprises - I want to play this game someday!!

#1713 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

I agree that LLC is probably the best route most of the time, but that is not always the case. That is what I am trying to help with.
What about when owners don't want to be subject to SE tax? or when the owners want to have disproportionate stake in the company? Not as black and white is all I am saying. Depending on your individual situation, you might be better (or required) to start one entity over the other.

You are getting confused. You can be an LLC and elect to be taxed any way you want. It really is black and white. Partnership is the best way. Lowest audit chance and can share profits and losses disproportionately.

As a cpa/lawyer for a long time I know what I'm talking about and I also know how easy it would be to unwind this shitstorm and reset.

#1714 4 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

Is this what Phil was referring to when he spoke about the difficult cast member during the Expo seminar?
What about the 20 songs? Is that licensing final? Phil also mentioned GM (the Dude's car) and Brunswick being on board. Any word on that being locked in?

No idea which cast member he meant. Could be. I won't go into more details, but it seems silly to worry about leaking things at this stage. I really only brought it up as an example of the lengths DP was going to do things right. I think we're seeing there was also corner cutting, and that's unfortunate, but a shitload of work was put into making this game happen from a license standpoint.

And really, maybe that's what was frustrating Phil. You got back and forth with f**king L'Oréal of all companies to get your game legit, and then people start showing things prematurely potentially screwing all that up.

It's hard to not want to show things. And Expo was an event they didn't want to miss. I get that. But sometimes someone has to care about the rules.

#1715 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

You are getting confused. You can be an LLC and elect to be taxed any way you want. It really is black and white. Partnership is the best way. Lowest audit chance and can share profits and losses disproportionately.
As a cpa/lawyer for a long time I know what I'm talking about and I also know how easy it would be to unwind this shitstorm and reset.

Btw, if you own the company you pay the SE tax no matter what.

Good link though. Especially for tax deferral options. That's where you must choose wisely!

#1716 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Shouldn't the key activity being the production of a finished game, *then* marketing and sales of said game?

These things should not be mutually exclusive. However, those involved in production and development should be working on production/development. Those responsible for marketing and sales, should be focused on that. Certainly unclear to me why both Jaap and Barry were in the US, but as I have said, they may have other reasons to be here, other then the sales/marketing event.

#1717 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Shouldn't the key activity being the production of a finished game, *then* marketing and sales of said game?
The reason the whole Phil thing resonates with people is that, based on the public behavior of DP, it makes sense. Announcing new products before finishing the last one, spending money and time on in-person shows, finally shipping a product that is unfinished, not answering emails, etc.

I can dig on this...especially if you are the size of Stern. DP is nothing close to Stern, they needed pre-orders to get this game moving. As I have said earlier, I think DP will stop the Pre-order thing, or have some type of a modified pre-order system in the future.

I totally understand the frustration with radio silence. I too agree that Communication could be better. But right now I see one guy, (Barry) juggling e-mails, licensing, DP USA, deposits, all on his own. He is shoring up the ship and getting more folks on board to help get through the rough waters. As he said in the communication he will be working through e-mails over the next few weeks. So I am sure you will be hearing from him..

What I have to add is that these guys are not hiding in a cave. Many people were asking Barry some very direct questions at MP and was more than happy to answer any question anyone had. If I was sitting on the sidelines and not kept up with the project I could see the frustration with DP. I wanted to meet the team, play the game, and get a true feeling of who I was sending $9k to. So I went to Expo...and then went to MP....to play TBL? sure. To meet the guys I am giving $9k to? You damn right.

#1718 4 years ago

Yup. Sometimes we all need a good "bitch slap."

Quoted from muzikman:

In the grand scheme of things, this "event" is probably a good thing for DP and for customers. Yes, in the short term it slows them down a bit. But it forces DP to be more accountable to their customers and likely means that they have to put more of their own money at risk, which adds incentive for them to deliver. As long as they can deliver great products, then ultimately their sales should not suffer. They appear to be committed to moving forward, which is great. Let's hope there are no other big surprises - I want to play this game someday!!

#1719 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

There is plenty of reason to get mad at Phil and call what he did unprofessional and speculate on what this does to his future employment prospects etc

I agree with you: Barry made a bad bet and lost. In defense of Phil, dealing with serious health problems and having your business partners leave you to fend for yourself will cause a breakdown in business protocol--I don't care who you are. This is primarily about Barry's poor handling of Phil's desire to leave.

#1720 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Btw, if you own the company you pay the SE tax no matter what.
Good link though. Especially for tax deferral options. That's where you must choose wisely!

Yeah I mean I just wanted people to know when to ask questions mostly, not know all the answers. So many people just start businesses willy nilly, and don't think about the legal, accounting, or tax implications of their decisions.

#1721 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

I'd been told to read up on this but the thread looked like "War and Peace"

That descriptor is only half right

#1722 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

The reason the whole Phil thing resonates with people is that, based on the public behavior of DP, it makes sense. Announcing new products before finishing the last one, spending money and time on in-person shows, finally shipping a product that is unfinished, not answering emails, etc.

Whoa, for a second I thought I was in the Skit B Predator thread.

#1723 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Whoa, for a second I thought I was in the Skit B Predator thread.

Funny, I thought it looked like the Popaduik thread!

#1724 4 years ago
Quoted from DnDPins:

I have to say that I am surprised at how many people seem to have thought their money was much safer that it was /is. When you prepay like we did (me on WOZ), you are risking 100% of your money regardless of any “Full Refund” policy. That is simply a method of making people feel comfortable. In the case of bankruptcy or a “run on the bank” you will likely lose everything.

I'm surprised by this also. I think TBL shows so much promise that people have been willing to ignore or substantially downplay the risks. Phil's actions have given us a clear view into how the sausage is made and it's freaking some folks out. (Understandably). If you're not prepared to lose every penny you've ponied up for TBL or BOP 2.0 then you probably don't belong in the pre-order queue. You should flat out assume you're going to lose everything and if a pin shows up on your doorstep, you'll be happy.

#1725 4 years ago

anything new in the past 12 pages or just the same shit?
can I get some updated cliff notes?

#1726 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

anything new in the past 12 pages or just the same shit?
can I get some updated cliff notes?

Just people arguing each side.

#1727 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Phil said this, you can still see it in this thread:

Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.

So I don't think Pinside is applying any twist... Theft is the word he used.

I can't believe some people don't even realize this was said. This is the part that worries me the most. If it is true, it should scare the shit out of everyone who supports the project. (I understand that's a big "IF", but the accusation from Phil cannot be simply brushed away)

Edit: Full post from phil below:

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

that Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.
keep in mind, jaap and i had NOTHING to do with bride. this was a koen / barry project, but we knew, if this thing didn't ship, nobody would by TBL.

#1728 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

And that's why you should never jump to conclusions when you only have one side of the story, regardless of what you think about the offer, they were trying to mend things and come up with a solution to the problem.

I think that is an odd conclusion to come to. I was mainly referring to things that don't appear to be disputed by either side. According to the documentation we have (mainly provided by one side) Phil said "Hey, I quit, take your company and assets" and Barry said, "Counter offer, why don't you just not quit, and keep doing what you are doing while we keep doing what we are doing, and then maybe you can quit later". That's not much of a counter offer when it is basically just saying "No" to something most of us think we all have the right to do: Quit.

Phil's argument is that he immediately let them know that their counter offer was ridiculous and continued to push for resolution, and those requests were essentially ignored until he made good on his ultimatum to go public. And then, the response was "Remember when we said "No" to your quitting? We really think you should do that and keep managing our USA funds." The evidence we have seen, unless it has been doctored, seems to support this.

That is not my definition of trying to mend things.

#1729 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

AFAIK, the 20 songs are licensed as a song album. Under Dutch law that is relatively simple, all you have to do is pay an amount of fees and you're allowed to use the full songs.

You can probably get all the Dutch songs you want that way.

#1730 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

According to the documentation we have (mainly provided by one side)

OK..you got me.

#1731 4 years ago

I can give an update that I did get a refund on deposit #3, but it was because i started a paypal dispute and escalated it to a claim. Was resolved within 24 hours via paypal. While DP seems to quickly be dealing with the orders on their actual site, it isn't doing much on paypal (and I'm referring to DP BV not DP USA). My first two deposits, from back in july, I don't know what's going on with them. Because they are older than 45 days, I put them through as unauthorized claims. I have no idea if that will get me my refund, but it seems after the initial wave, phil stopped doing refunds (if someone else has gotten a refund AFTER the initial wave, do tell). Seems at this point, if you want out, it's faster to go through paypal than DP, which is absolutely pathetic.

#1732 4 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

I agree with you: Barry made a bad bet and lost. In defense of Phil, dealing with serious health problems and having your business partners leave you to fend for yourself will cause a breakdown in business protocol--I don't care who you are. This is primarily about Barry's poor handling of Phil's desire to leave.

Oh I am not saying Phil didn't have valid reasons. I myself have been on the receiving end of business relationships where the other side had stopped talking to me and it was maddening. If my worldview had shifted because of a bad cancer diagnosis, I sure as hell wouldn't give a shit about professionalism after a certain point either.

10
#1733 4 years ago
Quoted from sammiesguys:

I can't believe some people don't even realize this was said. This is the part that worries me the most. If it is true, it should scare the shit out of everyone who supports the project. (I understand that's a big "IF", but the accusation from Phil cannot be simply brushed away)

Without knowing what he did with the cash, how can you make a judgment on whether it was reasonable or not? Even if he took the 60,000 as an officer loan and had a note on the books, does that equate to theft? If he did that and then converted it to salary, would that make it theft? You're pre-ordering a machine from the company, not buying the right to tell them how to run it. Being stupid with your money is one of the prerogatives you're ceding to them when you pre-order. That's one of the core issues here. Right now, it's a he-said, she-said and will likely stay that way.

#1734 4 years ago

Within minutes barry got back to me and said he would process a refund. I think that says a lot and I may not change my mind to keep my games in place.

#1735 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Within minutes barry got back to me and said he would process a refund. I think that says a lot and I may not change my mind to keep my games in place.

At this point I'd take your money and run.....

-2
#1736 4 years ago
Quoted from swf127:

Being stupid with your money is one of the prerogatives you're ceding to them when you pre-order.

#1737 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Within minutes barry got back to me and said he would process a refund. I think that says a lot and I may not change my mind to keep my games in place.

Wtf seriously? He ain't getting back to me after he emailed me yesterday morning giving me Phil's personal email and telling me to get refunded from him.

Rod

#1738 4 years ago
Quoted from swf127:

Without knowing what he did with the cash, how can you make a judgment on whether it was reasonable or not? Even if he took the 60,000 as an officer loan and had a note on the books, does that equate to theft? If he did that and then converted it to salary, would that make it theft? You're pre-ordering a machine from the company, not buying the right to tell them how to run it. Being stupid with your money is one of the prerogatives you're ceding to them when you pre-order. That's one of the core issues here. Right now, it's a he-said, she-said and will likely stay that way.

I didn't make the judgement as to whether or not it was theft. The former employee (and current partner of DP USA) did. The same guy who (insanely) still had the ability to refund thousands of dollars six weeks after announcing he was leaving. All of that is very worrying.

I don't need to control the company (in fact, I don't want to whatsoever). But from what I've seen, I have no interest in giving out money with these issues out there.

25
#1739 4 years ago

*opens door*

Hey everybody! Good to see you all. Been awhile. What's new? Think I'll get back into.......

*looks around*

.....err........

....ummm.......

*closes door*

#1740 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Wtf seriously? He ain't getting back to me after he emailed me yesterday morning giving me Phil's personal email and telling me to get refunded from him.
Rod

I may have sent my deposits to a different location.

#1741 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

I can give an update that I did get a refund on deposit #3, but it was because i started a paypal dispute and escalated it to a claim. Was resolved within 24 hours via paypal. While DP seems to quickly be dealing with the orders on their actual site, it isn't doing much on paypal (and I'm referring to DP BV not DP USA). My first two deposits, from back in july, I don't know what's going on with them. Because they are older than 45 days, I put them through as unauthorized claims. I have no idea if that will get me my refund, but it seems after the initial wave, phil stopped doing refunds (if someone else has gotten a refund AFTER the initial wave, do tell). Seems at this point, if you want out, it's faster to go through paypal than DP, which is absolutely pathetic.

This is what's completely crazy about the entire "pre-order" side of pinball. It's not like we're talking a few hundred bones...we're talking THOUSANDS of dollars...all for machines that aren't built and companies that aren't exactly manufacturing giants. That's a lot of faith to put into these new pinball companies. A LOT. There's really only a handful of collectors that are capable of doling-out $8K for something they might not see for several years... I said this before, and I'll say it again... I'd rather take the wait and see approach. Even if it's going to cost an extra $500 at the end of the road.

#1742 4 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

You can probably get all the Dutch songs you want that way.

No, international songs also.

#1743 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Within minutes barry got back to me and said he would process a refund. I think that says a lot and I may not change my mind to keep my games in place.

How are you contacting Barry? Can you post his e-mail so that other customers who want a refund can contact him?

#1744 4 years ago

I messaged Phil and give him the info for those first two deposits yesterday, but I guess we'll see how he handles things this weekend/next week. If I recall he had medical stuff tuesday (today) and I seem to recall him mentioning thursday as well.

#1745 4 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

*opens door*
Hey everybody! Good to see you all. Been awhile. What's new? Think I'll get back into.......
*looks around*
.....err........
....ummm.......
*closes door*

XujHL.gif

#1746 4 years ago
Quoted from gambit3113:

*opens door*
Hey everybody! Good to see you all. Been awhile. What's new? Think I'll get back into.......
*looks around*
.....err........
....ummm.......
*closes door*

LOL, what a thread this one would be to return during . . .

#1747 4 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

This is what's completely crazy about the entire "pre-order" side of pinball. It's not like we're talking a few hundred bones...we're talking THOUSANDS of dollars...all for machines that aren't built and companies that aren't exactly manufacturing giants. That's a lot of faith to put into these new pinball companies. A LOT. There's really only a handful of collectors that are capable of doling-out $8K for something they might not see for several years... I said this before, and I'll say it again... I'd rather take the wait and see approach. Even if it's going to cost an extra $500 at the end of the road.

Well sure, not everyone can do that, but the earlier you get in, the less those deposits hurt, as they are spaced out over a few months. It is crazy, yes, but the reason I got in on TBL was specifically because of how much they had shown and progressed. They were communicating, seemingly open, etc. They seemed the exception to the rule. Lesson learned, I'm done with it.

#1748 4 years ago
Quoted from madscientist101:

How are you contacting Barry? Can you post his e-mail so that other customers who want a refund can contact him?

Dude...really? Barry@dutchpinball.com

#1749 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

I messaged Phil and give him the info for those first two deposits yesterday, but I guess we'll see how he handles things this weekend/next week. If I recall he had medical stuff tuesday (today) and I seem to recall him mentioning thursday as well.

I have sent Phil several messages asking for a refund and he never responded and this was a few days ago when he was posting on here like crazy. He had plenty of time to vent on pinside yet he would not answer my PM's with a simple no or a yes regarding a refund.

#1750 4 years ago

I last spoke to Phil on Sunday as I tried getting out last week (December 8th) before this sh*t storm hit. My name was actually blacked out on an earlier post from him Saturday as someone Barry had asked him to refund. Unfortunately for me, I was the one who's account got flagged and Phil was supposed to answer some questions to PayPal. Phil said he answered them and that he would follow up with PayPal first thing Monday morning.

I haven't heard from him since and I still don't have my money.

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Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 17.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
$ 999.00
Flipper Parts
Mircoplayfields
$ 159.00
From: $ 99.99
Cabinet - Other
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 129.95
Lighting - Interactive
Hookedonpinball.com
From: $ 99.99
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