(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 34 of 77.
#1651 4 years ago

I spent 2 years living in various cities in the Netherlands...Apeldoorn, Haarlem, Gouda, Zeist, Utrecht. I love the Dutch. I even speak the language, badly. It's a big reason I supported DP in the beginning.

I say this with love: You Dutch guys talking about how business should be done are generally hurting the cause, at least for U.S. buyers. Over here business is all about taking big risks. If we start thinking that Dutch Pinball isn't risking it all for their product we're going to get (more) spooked about staying in. We need to believe they could end up on government welfare if they don't succeed. That's pretty much how it really works here.

#1652 4 years ago
Quoted from Ruger:

If DP goes out of business, all secured creditors get a shot at remaining assets first, then secondary creditors, a few other entities such as employees pay checks, etc. and at the very end whatever is left might be sent back to people that pre-ordered as a refund. You have no standing and literally no shot at getting anything back if they go out of business. And forget about suing anyone, won't happen because there is no one to get money from since it is a business and liability stops there, it doesn't transfer to the owners since it is a corporation or LLC.
blockquote>

This depends, and it not always true. I will be posting something soon to hopefully put this to bed and help anyone on here who is deciding to start up a business try and decide which type of entity to create.

#1653 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Absolutely I would.
Really whats the difference? If DP came out of the gate saying that Sharpe was on board everyone would have said, "Daaaauuuuumn! They got the big Gun!"
Now they are saying, "we got the big Gun"...I felt confident before, but now....sheeeeit..our worries are over dude.

I don't care who they have. If universal does not want to sign off on the project they won't. They will do as they see fit, not as dp sees fit.

#1654 4 years ago

Yeah... Or you can stay negative. The Germans might invade us and before you know it DP is producing "Mein Fuhrer"...

#1655 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

We don't know if there was or weren't we are getting Phil's presentation of the facts. Maybe it was discussed with him and he disagreed with doing it, does not mean it was wrong, but he still chose to throw it out here as 'theft' (at least I believe he made that accusation).

He didn't. That was pinside applying their own twist.

Quoted from rosh:

I have had many conversations with members of the DP team and heard about Roger being involved long before this past weekend, and as I think has been posted Roger was involved in other DP projects relative to licensing. I do not know if it occurred before or after Phil left, so I was not totally clear about that in my post. As I just wrote in another response, I would tend to think it was after, since taking on that extra expense when you already had someone doing it, does not make sense to me -- but I do not know the exact timing of it.

I'd wager he was involved with Williams regarding the Bride project as that is obvious given the other party in the discussion. If Roger was there advising them on TBL... it clearly would have altered the story and situation of Phil. Phil's moves were out of desperation and being ignored. Given the cited examples... I can not see an experienced guy like Sharpe blessing those moves and Phil was the lone outsider. It just doesn't add up. Not in DP's actions, not in what would have pushed Phil over the edge, not in the attempted reconciliations, nothing...

#1656 4 years ago

Pinball News Update:

Jackie Treehorn to take over DP USA from Roger Sharpe. Announces follow up to TBL

treehorn.jpg

#1657 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

In 1848 we even kicked the French out, I think, and in 1626 we bought Manhattan
But let's not make this a US vs. Netherlands thing.

Not, actually, if you look back, you're far more guilty of this than anyone.

#1658 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I'd wager he was involved with Williams regarding the Bride project as that is obvious given the other party in the discussion.

PPS was the other party in the discussion - BOP 2.0 is an agreement between DP and PPS ... PPS worked with wms to get an agreement that they would sign off on

#1659 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

rosh said:
We don't know if there was or weren't we are getting Phil's presentation of the facts. Maybe it was discussed with him and he disagreed with doing it, does not mean it was wrong, but he still chose to throw it out here as 'theft' (at least I believe he made that accusation).

He didn't. That was pinside applying their own twist.

I thought he had, but given my memory sucks I went back to look, and he did (see below), but to your point I'm sure it has been escalated through this massive thread . . .

Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

that Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.
keep in mind, jaap and i had NOTHING to do with bride. this was a koen / barry project, but we knew, if this thing didn't ship, nobody would by TBL.

Of course, this is one side of the story.

#1660 4 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

PPS was the other party in the discussion - BOP 2.0 is an agreement between DP and PPS ... PPS worked with wms to get an agreement that they would sign off on

Thanks for chipping in. I didn't mean to infer the license was through Roger instead of PPS.. but only that he has been involved with WMS IP and maybe was a player in from their side.

#1661 4 years ago

So Phil actually said "theft".

15
#1662 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

While I expect all of this will get resolved over the next couple of weeks, the bad thing is this will now slow the project down by at least that long as these guys are dealing with all of this, made so much worse by Phil's actions here on pinside.

Please explain to me how Phil's actions here on Pinside will have slowed the project down "so much worse" than if he hadn't posted?

He had been trying to get off of the books for 6 weeks, apparently with little or no response.

If anything, it seems that he sped things up.

#1663 4 years ago

I got two emails from Barry this morning. I'm in wait and see mode. To me they need to:

1. Have some kind of an update by the end of the year, BEFORE the next payment is due.
2. It must include what the status is of our cash, an updated production timeframe, what to expect with code, and their policy for remaining payments / people that want refunds now.
3. BOP kits and DP tshirts need clear delivery dates that they actually follow through on.
4. An update on BOP code and how it impacts TBL completion.

#1664 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Please explain to me how Phil's actions here on Pinside will have slowed the project down "so much worse" than if he hadn't posted?
He had been trying to get off of the books for 6 weeks, apparently with little or no response.
If anything, it seems that he sped things up.

I have witnessed how this has become a speed bump for DP.

Barry's focus after getting BOP 2.0 was to get the line up and running. I know for a fact he has not been able to do any of that since this whole things started. The interruption for Barry to handle this mess has kept him from his primary purpose...get the line up. The delay may not be measured in months, but its certainly interrupted business.

Sped things up for Phil...well, we'll see. It may have just landed him is a shit pot of legal crap. But who knows?

#1665 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Let me help, for only $149 shipped in two days you can save thousands and have your rug in time for Xmas

amazon.com link »

Since it's sold by cafepress, I'm gonna assume that's simply a printed rug (IE a white rug with printing to look like a woven rug). Also 5 feet is too wide, it needs to be half that size for a single pin.

#1666 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Please explain to me how Phil's actions here on Pinside will have slowed the project down "so much worse" than if he hadn't posted?

I agree, Phil probably sped things up. Bringing the problems with the license etc. to light for all to see will force DP to get their ducks in a row vis-a-vis the license and Universal. Bringing the financial mismanagement to light will force them to get their accounting in order and make the investors more vigilant. If this project was going to get straightened out, Phil gave it the kick in the ass it needed whether he intended to or not.

#1667 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Please explain to me how Phil's actions here on Pinside will have slowed the project down "so much worse" than if he hadn't posted?
He had been trying to get off of the books for 6 weeks, apparently with little or no response.
If anything, it seems that he sped things up.

Right now instead of working on the game and working through Phil's transition, they are now also having to do damage control. The Phil transition, which certainly sounds like it was already having issues, is now only going to be more complicated given what has happened. DP may well be at fault for not working through this with Phil in a more timely manner. However, when a partner in a business wants out, it can be a fairly complex thing to deal with, especially depending on the corporate bylaws and structure. Given Phil's action, my gut tells me this is now more complicated then it was a week ago. I'm not saying it is going to add months to the timeline, but it will clearly have an impact.

#1668 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Barry's focus after getting BOP 2.0 was to get the line up and running.

My concern, and one of the things I cited when I left, is what happened to the focus on finishing BOP 2.0?

The internal machinations of whether it was a "real" DP product or not don't mean anything to me, it's the public face of the company's first launch, and it's not going that great.

I'm glad to hear that US kits should hopefully be shipping soon, but they're shipping an incomplete game that doesn't have metamorphosis. You know, the actual cool gimmick in the game.

If they can't handle that, then what does that mean for TBL's code? Did they drop one thing to work on the other? And will they drop working on TBL to get all excited about Back to the Future, or The Matrix, or whatever the next shiny thing is?

These are the kind of concerns I have when I look at pre-orders.

24
#1669 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Right now instead of working on the game and working through Phil's transition, they are now also having to do damage control.

Well, to be blunt, oh f**king well. Because if they'd just taken care of business right they wouldn't be doing damage control. So lesson learned guys, you're running a business, not just playing with awesome toys. It's not all pinball design and taking trips to show off what you're doing.

I'm not defending Phil here, I have a lot of sympathy for the guy, but obviously things got out of control. But it didn't need to come to this point in the first place.

Regardless, it's what they do now that matters. And if they have to take some time off to make the business shit work, then good. Because better now then in the middle of manufacturing frankly.

#1670 4 years ago

Not wanting to read 34 pages... can someone give me the short version of just wtf is happening. Gather people got refunds back without asking for them... what's the word from Dutch Pinball?

-1
#1671 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

Today he finally writes back, "Please stop posting on Pinside. You are harming the business (which includes yourself). We made you an offer on December 4 (see attachment) and are waiting for your reply."

I guess Barry thinks he's harmed the business some what. Also according to the facts (and not guesses) he had an offer at least 12 day prior to this public melt down.

#1672 4 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

This depends, and it not always true. I will be posting something soon to hopefully put this to bed and help anyone on here who is deciding to start up a business try and decide which type of entity to create.

It's already put to bed, an LLC is the best option, period, unless you are going to be a publicly traded company which requires a C-corp. That's State law and for asset protection.

For tax purposes you can elect to be taxed anyway you like, sole proprietorship (if one, hence "sole"), partnership (two or more), c-corp, s-corp, take your pick.

That simple. No need to make it harder than it is.

Have they said what the "deposits" will be used for? Salaries, other overhead? Or just for the direct cost of the build?

Are some of the TBL funds being used to fund and finish BOP 2.0 as an email from Barry to Phil depicted?

Good luck securing any recourse against a Dutch company if DP USA goes away and not re formed. I'd want to have a US domiciled entity if I was a US customer sending in $$$.

#1673 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

My concern, and one of the things I cited when I left, is what happened to the focus on finishing BOP 2.0?
The internal machinations of whether it was a "real" DP product or not don't mean anything to me, it's the public face of the company's first launch, and it's not going that great.
I'm glad to hear that US kits should hopefully be shipping soon, but they're shipping an incomplete game that doesn't have metamorphosis. You know, the actual cool gimmick in the game.
If they can't handle that, then what does that mean for TBL's code? Did they drop one thing to work on the other? And will they drop working on TBL to get all excited about Back to the Future, or The Matrix, or whatever the next shiny thing is?
These are the kind of concerns I have when I look at pre-orders.

Well....BTTF is dead in the water, so all that noise about BTTF from Phil is bull shit. Not saying it wouldn't be a great game, but I would give it a 1% shot.....with Roger on Board, I give it 5%.

My understanding is Koen is doing just that, finishing code for BOP 2.0. No timeline is set on when it will be complete, but I don't think Koen is sitting on his hands.

And, although I can't speak for Barry. I have a feeling that this whole thing is pushing the team even harder to get TBL out on time and with completed code. Will there be updates for some of the first delivers? I'm sure. But I doubt it will be an incomplete game.

#1674 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Barry's focus after getting BOP 2.0 was to get the line up and running. I know for a fact he has not been able to do any of that since this whole things started.

Quoted from rosh:

Right now instead of working on the game and working through Phil's transition, they are now also having to do damage control.

I want a drag off of what you two are smoking. Respectfully, I have to call BS. Getting the line up while attending a party in NYC?

#1675 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

I want a drag off of what you two are smoking. Respectfully, I have to call BS. Getting the line up while attending a party in NYC?

Dude...party in NYC was friday night and Saturday. Barry was on his way back to Holland on Sunday and at the office on Monday. Really? I doubt those 2 days killed the schedule...

Smoking? naw man, Edibles is where its at bro....

#1676 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Good luck securing any recourse against a Dutch company if DP USA goes away and not re formed. I'd want to have a US domiciled entity if I was a US customer sending in $$$.

This is the biggest question that needs to be answered for me as a US buyer.

#1677 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Dude...party in NYC was friday night and Saturday. Barry was on his way back to Holland on Sunday and at the office on Monday. Really? I doubt those 2 days killed the schedule...

Smoking? naw man, Edibles is where its at bro....

Then you have to be careful stating that "they haven't been able to start any BoP 2.0 and getting line started because of this". I agree this WILL add to their time schedule to properly address/remedy. But to date, it has not impacted BoP 2.0 and lines.

Edibles, hmm.......

11
#1678 4 years ago

I have to say that I am surprised at how many people seem to have thought their money was much safer that it was /is. When you prepay like we did (me on WOZ), you are risking 100% of your money regardless of any “Full Refund” policy. That is simply a method of making people feel comfortable. In the case of bankruptcy or a “run on the bank” you will likely lose everything.

When WOZ was first announced, there was no way I was going to have my money on the line. I waited until the 2012 Christmas party when I saw and could play the game. I happily paid the extra $1,000 to keep my money safe…by the time I would be done paying I would have my game! Boy was my thinking wrong. I considered a refund many times but decided to stay in and I am glad I did. The game is great and it worked out for me. Even still, I could have easily lost everything (and probably almost did)

I am not saying that people should stay in and I certainly do not want to see people lose their money. In this situation I would pull out for sure…just surprised at people not realizing the risk they accepted. I would like to see TBL buit and would probably be an owner one day but no more pre-payment for me.

Full Disclosure – I am in on MMRLE from PPS and have $1,000 on the line. There was no way JJP was getting anymore of my $ and I only committed because with PPS I do not pay until it ships. I will gladly do it that way again.

Also, I must say that many of you must be a better person than I am (or much richer) to leave your money at great risk to “help out” someone else’s business which you share no profit in.

~Dave

10
#1679 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

I want a drag off of what you two are smoking. Respectfully, I have to call BS. Getting the line up while attending a party in NYC?

Yeah, have to agree with this. The NY party was totally unnecessary and stupid. They had the games at Expo just a couple months ago, there was zero reason to fly them back to the US. That's not a free trip, it costs money, it costs time, and since they're still showing the unapproved assets it's a risk to the project.

"Barry is super busy and shouldn't have to deal with this" rings hollow if he has time to party overseas.

Time to just focus on the task at hands guys.

And edible are way too hard to titrate, vaping ++

#1680 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

I want a drag off of what you two are smoking, respectfully. I have to call BS. Getting the line up while attending a party in NYC?

we can talk about the first item another time. You are certainly welcome to call BS and would have plenty of support for that. And while I would agree the timing was not great on the NYC thing and to be honest I don't know the details on that event were. Obviously marketing and sales are still a key activity and not sure if they had to step into that event due to Phil leaving, and I certainly can't say if that event warranted them being away. Regardless, not sure why both Barry and Jaap and to be there. However, they may have other reasons to be in the States, relative to other issues, suppliers and possibly even trying to address the Dutch Pinball USA issues.

I guess I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt right now.

#1681 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Well, to be blunt, oh f**king well. Because if they'd just taken care of business right they wouldn't be doing damage control.

Not true. DP wouldn't be doing damage control if Phil hadn't deliberately acted to cause damage and hurt them.

We are not informed to the extent DP was working to resolve Phil's concerns.

#1682 4 years ago

Oh the the Vape is awesome!

#1683 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

there was zero reason to fly them back to the US

the games from expo never left the US, and I assume what they had there were those games. Obviously still an expense to get them there from Chicago (or wherever else they may have traveled to), but not as crazy if they brought them over.

Edibles, vaping? -- you young guys with your fancy new ways

#1684 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

we can talk about the first item another time. You are certainly welcome to call BS and would have plenty of support for that. And while I would agree the timing was not great on the NYC thing and to be honest I don't know the details on that event were. Obviously marketing and sales are still a key activity and not sure if they had to step into that event due to Phil leaving, and I certainly can't say if that event warranted them being away. Regardless, not sure why both Barry and Jaap and to be there. However, they may have other reasons to be in the States, relative to other issues, suppliers and possibly even trying to address the Dutch Pinball USA issues.
I guess I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt right now.

That event was specifically set up because of the Dutch Pinball cancelation of the show in Texas. Was it necessary? No, did DP want to make up for the cancelation? Yes.

#1685 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

The Germans might invade us and before you know it DP is producing "Mein Fuhrer"...

It's the Russians you want to look out for!!

#1686 4 years ago

Man, I feel sorry for all you investors. Hope things work out for the best. What a thread............what a horror show.

#1687 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

there was zero reason to fly them back to the US.

Scott humped them over from Chicago in a truck...these were two that were left in the US after Expo.
Also, the place they stayed in NY was totally low budget. I know, I stayed in the same place. So low budget in fact, that I know my wife wouldn't have stayed there.

Quoted from Aurich:

And edible are way too hard to titrate, vaping ++

I can give you a +1 on that...

#1688 4 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

Not true. DP wouldn't be doing damage control if Phil hadn't deliberately acted to cause damage and hurt them.
We are not informed to the extent DP was working to resolve Phil's concerns.

Dude Phil couldn't have even touched the money if they'd handled business.

#1689 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

but he still chose to throw it out here as 'theft' (at least I believe he made that accusation).

He didn't. That was pinside applying their own twist.

Phil said this, you can still see it in this thread:

Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.

So I don't think Pinside is applying any twist... Theft is the word he used.

Quoted from Cenobyte:

So Phil actually said "theft".

Yes, see above... If you search the thread using phil-DP-USA you can see all his posts... is about 8 posts down... Edit: 14 posts down, just checked...

-1
#1690 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Phil said this, you can still see it in this thread:
Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.
So I don't think Pinside is applying any twist... Theft is the word he used.

Booyah!

#1691 4 years ago

I can imagine it like a scene out of Madmen.:

There's Roger Sharpe sitting in the waiting room at Universal Studios to see their IP manager.

He hears laughter inside the office... the doors open...

Out comes Gary Stern with a smile on his face..

"Hi Roger. How's it going?"

And he heads to the elevator whistling....

#1692 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Dude Phil couldn't have even touched the money if they'd handled business.

I understand that. DP was wrong to not cut him off. They may have mistakenly thought Phil was still a friend.

But Phil's actions were meant to deliberately cause damage to DP.

#1693 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

So, these guys built a commercial pinball machine based on a theme they didn't have permission to use? And NOW they're trying to get permission?

No.

#1694 4 years ago

So they had permission but hadn't worked out the details, and now may have violated the arrangement? Tricky stuff.

#1695 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Phil said this, you can still see it in this thread:

Barry had taken the €60,000. Jaap and I realized that we had no choice but to put back the money ourselves. I started buying parts from all over the world on my credit cards. Shipped stuff on my personal fedex account. all to cover his theft.

And the reason Phil did it, according to him, was that Barry didn't "have any money" and I guess needed the 60k euro to fund living expenses.

#1696 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

We're starting to see a trend with a lot of these companies; they're focused on the product, the design, engineering, artistry, but most of them are lacking real business leadership.

This is a trend in reality unfortunately. No leader is perfect, but you learn through failure, and not enough move on past those failures.

#1697 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Because better now then in the middle of manufacturing frankly.

Si I guess we won't get our 'Kahlua TBL' like we have Marylin Taxi

#1698 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

So, these guys built a commercial pinball machine based on a theme they didn't have permission to use? And NOW they're trying to get permission? And multiple times their company has imploded. And people still want to pre-order the games? Seems legit.
Anyone want to guess whether or not Gary Stern is on the phone with Universal right now about doing a BL game for Stern? He seems to be a wizard at letting other people do tons of legwork to increase his market and then beating everybody else to the punch.

Dude you new here?
License was granted nine months ago
Approval is what they haven't finalized

#1699 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

And the reason Phil did it

The reason Phil did what? Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean...

#1700 4 years ago
Quoted from PinballHelp:

So they had permission but hadn't worked out the details, and now may have violated the arrangement? Tricky stuff.

Okay, cliff notes:

Dutch Pinball has the Big Lebowski License. Totally legit, working with Universal.

Early on they had some issues with how they were using it. Doesn't matter what or why. Phil took over the communication, if nothing else he's a native English speaker, and a sharp guy.

There were a lot of tricky bits to navigate to get approvals. What you're allowed to do with the actors for instance. And as you've seen, some actors have different problems to navigate. John Goodman is one. You probably haven't heard about Julian Moore, who is a L'Oréal spokeswoman, and they have approval rights over her public image.

IMHO DP and Phil were doing an awesome job navigating that maze. It's one thing that really sold me on them. Clever workarounds, loop holes, patience, etc.

So far so good.

The problem is that the process was still ongoing. Some things were further than others. My guess is the translite was final for instance. That was all done using approved PR assets and Photoshop filtering, to stick with the letter of the law about not doing renders. They got an exception to draw in The Stranger's other arm I think.

That stuff is key, DP wasn't allowed to just grab frames from the movie, or draw the characters themselves. They'd tried that and got shot down, I think that's when Phil got involved, not sure.

So basically what DP was showing was less final than we believed. We're seeing that now with the gun and pot leaf vanishing I guess.

The issue is that by doing that they risked Universal getting pissed off. I don't think anyone was going to get sued or anything ridiculous like that. But they could have potentially decided the liability of this company representing their brand was too high and pulled the plug.

That's the main source of conflict. And I might have some details wrong, I don't have all sides of the story. The point is that while there was some rule bending, and possibly issues, no one is saying they didn't have the license. It just hasn't finished the approval process.

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