(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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#1551 5 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

There have traditionally been two funding models for startups. The first, and most prevalent is the self-funded/networked model. This is where you put in your own cash and supplement that with $ from friends and family. They pitch in because 1) They think you are smart, ambitious, etc. and will be successful or 2) They have visions of the business becoming the next Facebook, Starbucks, etc. and believe their $5k will turn into $5mm. This is the easy way because you, your family and friends are investing in you and the idea. They don't care about a business plan. "It's a great idea" "Bob is such a hard worker and so smart" "I'm gonna be rich!"
The second funding model is via investors (bank, VC firms, etc.). They really don't care if you are nice, smart, ambitious, etc. (Ok they care about that a little bit). What they are focused on is the business plan. Have you done your homework, are all the risks identified, market research analysis completed, staffing model reasonable, logistical components in place, financial models make sense, etc.
What is interesting is this new model, i.e., the Kickstarter model being used by these small pinball companies. This model is really nothing more than the first one. One is simply expanding the 'family and friends' willing to invest in the business. You don't see the business plan so you have no idea if it is well thought out, complete and viable. The one difference is, in this case, you are investing in people you don't even know. You actually have less info about the people and the business plan than you have when your brother-in-law says 'Hey I've got a great idea for a business'
Obviously, your money, your risk. But I would only play this game with money I am willing to lose. And while I would be disappointed, I would not be shocked if it ended up badly.

We self funded our business four plus years ago. The thousands we invested was supplied by me and one other partner. The third while not investing any cash was actually the smart one on how to run the Buisness 100% legit and by the book. To the point where it's almost a pain in the ass...but that's what it takes. If the Buisness is run by the seat of your pants it won't succeed. Money management seems to be lacking in every crowd funded project. Guess its diff when it's your own money on the line.

15
#1552 5 years ago
Quoted from lllvjr:

Money management seems to be lacking in every crowd funded project. Guess its diff when it's your own money on the line.

This is how I feel about these types of projects. These "entrepreneurs" don't completely understand the impact of spending their profits from the sales before the products are even delivered.

If what Phil says is true about Barry borrowing from TBL sales to pay for BOP, that alone tells me everything I need to know.

#1553 5 years ago

Got it!!!
My main concern is still the game.If i was in I wouldn't really want to concern myself with the internal workings of DP.My focus would be " gave you a deposit(or 2)wheres my game?"
I mean ,ultimately thats what you paid for.Licensing,profit margins are none of my business,I did my part(money up front),when can I expect delivery?

#1554 5 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Yes...I was at Modern Pinball on Saturday night and Barry mentioned to me that there were resubmissions coming in.

They must have balls of steel or oodles of cash to risk. I was too big of a chicken $hit to get in on any preorder whatsoever but going back in on this after the $hitstorm that has ensued is just mind boggling to me. Kudos to you all going in on this, i hope you are rewarded handsomely.

#1555 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

We're starting to see a trend with a lot of these companies; they're focused on the product, the design, engineering, artistry, but most of them are lacking real business leadership.

Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

I think sitting on your hands waiting for the fire to die down is the worst thing they can do.

IMO then Sharpe is the man, all the interviews I've read and watched would make me believe Roger can do it. Even helm it.

Just look @ the timing of the statement in the Pavlov interview just the other day: <But there’s possible good news for Potter fans.”I am first in line for the licence, and I am waiting for when the timing is right,” he says. “When it is I will see if a particular manufacturer will step up – or I might like to do it myself.”>

In historical context, Roger has been "in the right place at the right time" more than once to help the industry.

For crying out loud he physically made the "flips" that made it legal again, and brought pinball into a more respected context.

He's technically a figurehead / PR man for pinball in general, has a pin design history to boot
on top of licensing (which now is being alluded to have helped dp already on - which we assume is the next title(s)), and to say has oodles of passion is an understatement.

So maybe Roger is in the time and place again - this time to add another title to his career.

Guys this is THE light @ the end of the tunnel but don't get me wrong, Roger will come @ a price.

I said it in another post, and it may sound sappy as shit, but pinball deserves dp to succeed & @ the same time pinball deserves better than this shitstorm.

And if Roger was in the room w/ me I'm sure he would be the first to hi-five for that.

borat.jpg

...of course then tell dp where to send the funds for his retainer.

-Rod

#1556 5 years ago

Happy to see Phil has gone quiet.. Taking that as a sign things have been worked out behind the scene finally. Still questions they need to answer but hopefully can start the work digging out of the ditch.

I don't have anything to add to the business owner/tax talk.. Lowly engineer but can appreciate thats a better conversation than the sky is falling stuff of the weekend .

#1557 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Happy to see Phil has gone quiet.. Taking that as a sign things have been worked out behind the scene finally.

Actually Phil has Cancer treatments this week. This was part of the reason he did what he did last week as he was not going to be available this week.

#1558 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

unless you happen to be a Millionaire...

Somebody please invite Bill Gates or Warren Buffet to your next pinball party

-1
#1559 5 years ago

I think DP made one big mistake. Building a prototype that looks this awesome so that people forget it's a prototype. It's not a final production and therefor not a retail product. A lawsuit about copyright one a prototype is a bit strange don't you think?? The DMD realy stated : "PRE-ALPHA SOUNDS, FX and SOFTWARE". As a dutchman i found it very funny to see Greg showing an empty cabinet ^^

The suggestion that all of this is done with pre-order money is not true, this project started a long time before there was a single preorder taken.

#1560 5 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

Actually Phil has Cancer treatments this week. This was part of the reason he did what he did last week as he was not going to be available this week.

Well, still thinking positively.. Someone posted late yesterday they showed a new DP USA created in wyoming with Barry and jaap listed.. So movement is happening .. So after Phil wakes up from his daze maybe he'll be satisfied enough to stop with the rants.. Certainly was at the point it wasnt adding any more to the story.

#1561 5 years ago

I can't imagine DP sending out a January 1st payment installment request at this point (it would go over like a fart in church) we need more details of changes and accountability at DP before they can expect those who got out to get back in let alone ask for more $$ than the $4500.

#1562 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

And It's Gone! - funny South Park video ... but does not apply in this situation.

Poof!

#1563 5 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

battled the genie (and lost)

...?? all you gotta do is keep the balls alive and hit switches...

#1564 5 years ago

And now a few people are feeling what 70 Aussie felt when we baked JJP and Bumper went up in smoke with no WOZ... At least you guys are getting refunds

-23
#1565 5 years ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

Gather the entire team together (there's like 6 to 8 dedicated folks, right?) and hold a meeting. The topic is "OK guys, we're all taking out $50,000 second mortgages leined on our homes" and/or "Everybody is going to put their credit cards on the table and/or bank cards and were going to swipe them to max them out" and/or "Everybody is going to apply for a $25,000 personal loan or line of credit from their bank". "Let's make a great investment on our great pinball and get this done!"
This goes two ways:
a) Everyone: "Absolutely!" - proof of ACTUAL dedication / belief in seeing this done
b) "Are you crazy? LOL, I'm not putting MY money into this" - the true test, and telling, no?
...
If the machine getting done is the true dream, as long as they simply break even per run (or as IPB years ago with BBB taking actual losses per machine) it gets done.

I'm sorry but that is complete BS! I know some of these guys and they all live and breathe pinball, but they are also people with a life, a spouse, a job and some of them may have children. If YOU believe this totally irresponsible way is the way to go into any business then I applaud you, but I think you're playing Russian roulette with your life...

#1566 5 years ago
Quoted from Audioenslaved:

At least you guys are getting refunds

We shall see. Every email (to Phil and DP) has gone into a black hole. My PayPal disputes have been sitting with the status of "Awaiting other party's response" since this all started.

Maybe after a few more full business days they will bother telling us what the status is of the DP USA account with all our money.

-14
#1567 5 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

If what Phil says is true about Barry borrowing from TBL sales to pay for BOP, that alone tells me everything I need to know.

Please stop blowing stuff out of proportion. This is a small company and funds are used where they're needed. Please stop making such a big deal of that.

#1568 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

I'm sorry but that is complete BS! I know some of these guys and they all live and breathe pinball, but they are also people with a life, a spouse, a job and some of them may have children. If YOU believe this totally irresponsible way is the way to go into any business then I applaud you, but I think you're playing Russian roulette with your life...

So they should play Russian roulette with your money and have no responsibility to you if the thing goes belly up with no product? I've been bitten once I will never ever do it again. Not until I get a product in my hand

15
#1569 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

I'm sorry but that is complete BS! I know some of these guys and they all live and breathe pinball, but they are also people with a life, a spouse, a job and some of them may have children. If YOU believe this totally irresponsible way is the way to go into any business then I applaud you, but I think you're playing Russian roulette with your life...

I see. It is always better to play Russian roulette with other people's money.

This is why the pre-order/pre-pay model needs to go away. If one of these entities fails to deliver we will certainly lose dozens of pinheads from frustration, anger, and apathy toward the hobby.

-19
#1570 5 years ago

Pfuuu Americans can't read.

There is a lot of private money invested even before a single pre-order was taken!

#1571 5 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

I see. It is always better to play Russian roulette with other people's money.
This is why the pre-order/pre-pay model needs to go away. If one of these entities fails to deliver we will certainly lose dozens of pinheads from frustration, anger, and apathy to the hobby.

No, it's better NOT to play Russian Roulette AT ALL when running a company!

I agree with you on the whole pre-order thing, but these guys already invested a shitload of their own money and time before a single pre-order was taken. Don't make it look so black and white, like they're on a tropical island spending all these thousands on chicks & booze.

#1572 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Pfuuu Americans can't read.
There is a lot of private money invested even before a single pre-order was taken!

Once again, someone making it about what country each person resides. Don't you see that similar frustrations are being voiced with other boutiques (most are American by the way)?

-1
#1573 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

There is a lot of private money invested even before a single pre-order was taken!

This is a correct statement. They have a huge personal stake in this company.

#1574 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Pfuuu Americans can't read.
There is a lot of private money invested even before a single pre-order was taken!

I certainly can read...I just don't know what "Pfuuu" means. Is that Dutch?

#1575 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

There is a lot of private money invested even before a single pre-order was taken!

What do you want a cookie? So what?You don't get credit for things you're SUPPOSSED to do.I doesn't fix or change whats happening now.I hope they're using "private money" to pay Roger Sharpe.

#1576 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

If I'm Barry or Jaap, at this point Id not be sure how to even communicate with Phil. They can't trust him with a written correspondence of any kind (no letter, text, or email) and I can't imagine they want to talk to him...
A lot of people have commented on Phil's level of professionalism in how he handled this matter, my question is more along the lines of how good is Barry's and Jaap's judgement in bringing him in to begin with. At some point, they not only selected him as a partner but gave him broad monetary controls and authority, he was (in fact) their mouth piece.
Did DP exercise good judgment in partnering with Phil? I'm not giving my opinion on that either way...but I certainly have one.

It's interesting to look back on the discussions about Phil's presentation at Expo and how some of us commented on what we thought was a lack of professionalism at that time, shown by his slamming of Gary Stern and the regular dropping of F bombs. Ironically some of the same people who defended the presentation as being perfectly professional at that time are now talking about how completely unprofessional Phil is.

#1577 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Pfuuu Americans can't read.

Aren't you a class act.

Quoted from Cenobyte:

Don't make it look so black and white, like they're on a tropical island spending all these thousands on chicks & booze.

No one is saying that. Zero, zilch, nada. You are going overboard trying to marginalize legitimate concerns about how money is being handled in house. Stop it. You have made some valid rebuttals; now your coming off as a homer.

-1
#1578 5 years ago

Let's make it simple.

In 2013 there was a picture with a rug. Let we presume that at that time DP was already talking to Universal and got green light. They didn't do that with pre-order money.

I am sorry for the "Americans" line, afterall the most of you have roots in Europe from a few centuries ago Also this "behevior" is not because you are american or dutch, it's because we are all pinheads. Call it autism, call it hobby. We are all infected with the Pinball decease ^^

20
#1579 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Please stop blowing stuff out of proportion. This is a small company and funds are used where they're needed. Please stop making such a big deal of that.

Sorry man, but it is a big deal. A very big deal.

It's not a big deal when you use the profits from your first project to fund your second project. That's how business operates.

It becomes a problem when you use the profits from your second project to deliver your first project. That starts a very nasty debt cycle that is hard to recover from.

#1580 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

It's interesting to look back on the discussions about Phil's presentation at Expo and how some of us commented on what we thought was a lack of professionalism at that time, shown by his slamming of Gary Stern and the regular dropping of F bombs. Ironically some of the same people who defended the presentation as being perfectly professional at that time are now talking about how completely unprofessional Phil is.

I haven't heard anything about his presentation at EXPO until now. If I had attended that, I would not be surprised at all how he has handled his issues at DP. I don't think he could've gone about it any worse than he did.

#1581 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Pfuuu Americans can't read.
There is a lot of private money invested even before a single pre-order was taken!

Quoted from Cenobyte:

Don't make it look so black and white, like they're on a tropical island spending all these thousands on chicks & booze.

NoDrama-1-182.jpg
-3
#1582 5 years ago

Not when project 1 is so tiny compared to project 2.

You are over reacting. Money aint an issue here.

#1583 5 years ago
Quoted from edmorex:

Every email (to Phil and DP) has gone into a black hole.

I got an email reply from DP (Barry). No hard answers yet other than they are working to resolve the issue and "An update will be sent soon."

#1584 5 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

Wow!!!
Its been discussed(Skit B thread) that boutique co.s can make 2 to 3 games per week.If they are to deliver 500 games it would take 166 weeks(3 per week).

I know some of the production plans of these guys and they are not going to build games by hand on a rotisserie, it's a lot more professional than that.

#1585 5 years ago

I got a personal reply from Barry this morning, and I thought it was reassuring. I still believe in these guys, and I think their talent for design is without question. With Roger Sharpe on board, licensing should be no issue. We may get our games later than anticipated, but I am confident we will get them.

Even if this refund thing becomes an issue, I think it is abundantly clear how much interest there is in this project. I've never seen a session at Expo that full, or so many people discussing the game passionately.

Even if this run on the bank puts them in dire straits, I would fully expect Gary Stern to step in and offer to help manufacture the game.

Or, to quote Walter: "dude, nothing is fucked here."

#1586 5 years ago

Guys...
I have to agree with Soltic...with Roger coming on board is a huge deal.

Just for conversation...lets say Roger is able to get approval for things that have been thought to be dead in the water...that's a positive for all of us.

And lets say in the next few days/week, we get communication saying all our money is safe and TBL is still set to begin production in April. Thats another positive for all of us.

This whole thing may have a silver lining...

10
#1587 5 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

I am sorry for the "Americans" line, afterall the most of you have roots in Europe from a few centuries ago

No offense taken...many of us like to bust balls from time to time. And I still have close relatives in Hungary, so I have more than just roots in Europe.

But I must point out that since America helped save your country from the Evil Empire during WWII, many Dutch women thanked our American GIs the only way they knew how (as also happened in France). So there's a very good chance that many Dutchmen also have some American roots in Holland.

#1588 5 years ago
Quoted from vex:

NoDrama-1-182.jpg 37 KB

Sorry man, but most of the drama I've seen posted here came from assumptions based on some guy screaming his head off earlier in this thread, posting one-sided rants on his phone and you're calling ME a drama queen? This is getting too weird...

-2
#1589 5 years ago

OMG, the usa saved holland story again.

HAHAHAHA

Maybe if the usa joined that evil war a bit sooner, it did not last as long as it did.

As far as the proud city of Breda. We are freed by the polish army. And we are still thankfull to them for that. We honour them every year.

#1590 5 years ago

Really, only time will tell if all the pre-order companies are anything more than Ponzi type schemes in the way that they finance.

Whatever anyone thinks about Stern they are the only pinball company with a proven track record and profitability built on real sales of real pinballs ( as they say! ).

#1591 5 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

This whole thing may have a silver lining...

Hope so,it would be great!!!

10
#1592 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

OMG, the usa saved holland story again.
HAHAHAHA
Maybe if the usa joined that evil war a bit sooner, it did not last as long as it did.
As far as the proud city of Breda. We are freed by the polish army. And we are still thankfull to them for that. We honour them every year.

We didn't care about that city. We left it for the Poles. Everything else, we saved.

#1593 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

If YOU believe this totally irresponsible way is the way to go into any business then I applaud you, but I think you're playing Russian roulette with your life...

Off topic, but this cracks me up. Maybe it's a cultural thing, I don't know. What CPR is suggesting is basically the *only* way any small business has been started in North America in the past 200 years (up until the recent past). It's called entrepreneurialship. No guts, no glory. You want the reward? Take the risk.

It's also the reason that 99.9% of people in the USA are "employees", rather than "business owners". Employees assume none of the risks, but expect none of the rewards.

Capital (cash, 2nd mortgage, personal financial guaranty, etc.) has always been the barrier to starting new businesses. This new model is just crazy.

Edit to acknowledge maybe DP does have skin in the game. If so, guess they are "totally irresponsible" too.

21
#1594 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Maybe if the usa joined that evil war a bit sooner, it did not last as long as it did

shaking_head_breaking_bad.gif
#1595 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

It's interesting to look back on the discussions about Phil's presentation at Expo and how some of us commented on what we thought was a lack of professionalism at that time, shown by his slamming of Gary Stern and the regular dropping of F bombs. Ironically some of the same people who defended the presentation as being perfectly professional at that time are now talking about how completely unprofessional Phil is.

I raise my hand....I thought it was edgy, grabbed the audience, and raised a few eyebrows. Was it something I would have done, no.

Was it effective? I think so. Could it have been done in a more professional manner and achieved the same results? absolutely.

#1596 5 years ago
Quoted from edmorex:

I got an email reply from DP (Barry). No hard answers yet other than they are working to resolve the issue and "An update will be sent soon."

This is SOP for any company going through something like this. They are not going to answer any questions in detail until the issue is resolved completely. That could take a while. It is unfortunate, but it's the way it is.

#1597 5 years ago

Man, all these Dutch dudes, I haven't seen such a Dutch uprising since what 1566?

#1598 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Sorry man, but most of the drama I've seen posted here came from assumptions based on some guy screaming his head off earlier in this thread, posting one-sided rants on his phone and you're calling ME a drama queen? This is getting too weird...

yeah YOU!

we all want the same thing, dp making a great game...

#1600 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Man, all these Dutch dudes, I haven't seen such a Dutch uprising since what 1566?

...which, if they had joined sooner, might not have happened...

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