(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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#1501 4 years ago

TBL...What a fucking shit show.

#1502 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Wow, a whole lot has transpired since I've been able to view the amazingness of this thread.
First thing, to clear it up for everybody, here is the difference with who is liable for what:
What DP USA should have is an LLC taxed as a partnership, they can share profits and losses disproportionately to their ownership %'s, certainly an enticement for any "new owner" coming on board.
With an LLC, depending on the state law, all you can get is what's called a "charging order" against the member's interest. What that means is that they don't get squat, other than a K-1 and the profits that go along with it, WITHOUT the cash to pay the taxes, thus, the best asset protection vehicle out there.
With a C corp or an S corp the creditor gets to step into the shoes of the shareholder and "take over" the operations of that ownership %, voting privileges, etc.
As for PERSONAL LIABILITY, there is no liability with any corporate entity from a personal standpoint UNLESS the creditor is able to pierce the corporate veil, no matter what type of entity it is.
You pierce the veil by the owners NOT following the corporate formalities, shareholder meetings, proper accounting practices, etc....
In a "partnership" the liabilities are "joint and several".
They should shut down DP USA, Inc., distribute the deposits back to the original depositors, file the articles of dissolution, get a certificate of good standing from the comptroller and it could be done tomorrow.
Then DP should set up a proper entity here in the US, as an LLC, with Roger or whomever as partner and move the fuck on. It's really not that F ing hard and can be done in a few days.
Give Phil a promissory note for what he's "out of pocket" and be done with it.
Next, before anybody dropped another DIME into this project, i would expect a "trust account" to be set up with monthly accounting and full disclosure to all the owners as to how the funds are being spent.
Make sense? Really simple yet transparency seems to be taboo with pinball.

A++ dude, would read again.

And here I thought you just drank beer around here!

Thread is a rager!

#1503 4 years ago

This being the case, I think the delinquency notice must just be for failing to file the return, I can't imagine they would have any tax owing (certainly not so much they can't afford it). It would be so dumb for a corporation who deals almost exclusively in pre-orders to be on a cash basis that I can't possibly imagine it happening.

#1504 4 years ago

Guys - anybody that's been in business for themselves knows you cannot run a successful business without paying a good CPA and attorney now and then to keep everything in order so you can concentrate on what makes you money. Giving people like this pre order money is gambling at best, and really a slap in the face to all the legitimate businesses that do things right. Don't believe the hype! Anybody can run an Experian or D&B report on a business (background check). In my 20 years of experience, if they don't have a positive credit history, don't do business with them.

12
#1505 4 years ago

Someone should make a pin based on this thread. Collect emails to start Refund Multiball, shoot the ramps to obtain proper licensing...etc.

#1506 4 years ago

I agree that there should be no privileges for those who bail out and want back in when they see it's all working out fine, then everyone would bail out, and where would that leave DP... there would be no incentive to stay in! I even think there should be more incentive to stay in... like DP promising that there will be no aftermarket rug, for example... the rugs should be limited to people who stick this out... ( or get back in), surplus rugs should be destroyed, this should be their policy! The risk is bigger now by far, so the reward should be too... What's the point in staying in just to get a rug, if you can bail out and buy the rug afterwards... OK, you save a few bucks, but you don't risk losing something special... and that rug will be special! I'm not saying this because I want to deprive people of their rug... I'm saying this because I want people to stay in, so that DP can see we're behind them and will help keep this boat afloat!

They could even make an announcement that due to recent shit, and as an incentive for people to stay on-board, people have until xxx deadline to re-enter their position in the line... after that deadline there will be no more re-entering possible, and all people on-board at that moment will receive the ultra special custom made rug. These rugs will be exclusively for people who are on board at that moment and will not be for sale afterwards... or words to that effect... They need the deposits back from people who got freaked out, and this would be an incentive for people to get back on board...

I can imagine lots of people won't like this idea, especially those who received a refund because it will make them feel uncomfortable about the thought of having to make a decision that could put them at risk again, but the idea is to have an incentive for people to re-assess their situation and re-support DP and TBL.

I'm still in.

#1507 4 years ago
Quoted from catboxer:

Someone should make a pin based on this thread. Collect emails to start Refund Multiball, shoot the ramps to obtain proper licensing...etc.

The kahlua bottle toy turns 30 percent each hit to reveal the full logo.

#1508 4 years ago

The Oct 19th deadline was not exactly set in stone, although it should have been.
I made a deal with DP way after the 19th of Oct at the original price with extras

#1509 4 years ago
Quoted from SolarRide:

why is John Goodman being a holdout for licensing ? He doesn't strike me as being a Michael J Fox/David Copperfield type of guy.

I think he's just not someone who doesn't do licensing deals at all. Not interested I guess. And he has veto power of what he's placed next to. No guns I think. So whatever rights Universal has to his likeness and performance are on the table, but nothing extra. I really think people are unnecessarily worried about the Goodman part. Maybe that's why the gun has to come off, the weed, I dunno, but they're not going to have him not be in the game as far I understood.

Nothing is approved yet, so who the hell knows, but I'd just stop worrying about it all, no way he won't be in the pin.

#1510 4 years ago

The Big Clusterfuckowski

#1511 4 years ago

Phil should've hired a lawyer first, his letter would have scared Barry into action.

What we have instead, Phil won't get any communication from Barry or Jaap because he has already shown that he makes all private communications public, even his ridiculous FBI threats.

"because they are my friends"

13
#1512 4 years ago

I only thumbs up posts that are within one line. Good grief, don't leave a novel. No one cares.

#1513 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

the rugs should be limited to people who stick this out... ( or get back in), surplus rugs should be destroyed

lackoffaith.jpg
#1514 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

In Phil's mind he was protecting himself, his family and the customers.

I'm sorry, but that is not true.
Her may be protecting himself and family, but not the "customers"
Yes, some that payed recently via Paypal have gotten a refund and may be happy.
But in general this behaviour endangered the whole TBL project much more than the whole licensing stuff and whatever Baary/Jaap were doing.
This also means that IF the DP ship should sink now, many more (potential) customers will be in jeopardy than Phil may have "saved" with his actions.

So no, I am not happy with his actions, though I see why he did it.
It's just that he also did it on the back of many customers and fans of DP.

26
#1515 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

We all know that this is so parts can be purchased, employees can be hired, proto's made.....and without it, the games may have not seen the light of day.

Yes, you are correct. We all know what the encouragement of seed money was for. Completely for building a bankroll (financing/loans) to do the project. This was my point in earlier posts. The cash isn't for "security deposit" purposes to hold your position. It's to SPEND.

Quoted from pinballslave:

I'm saying this because I want people to stay in, so that DP can see we're behind them and will help keep this boat afloat!

Stop putting it on the hobby's shoulders. The boat CAN be kept afloat. This was my other point. It's not the end of the world if they are TRULY into this. All they have to do is this:

Gather the entire team together (there's like 6 to 8 dedicated folks, right?) and hold a meeting. The topic is "OK guys, we're all taking out $50,000 second mortgages leined on our homes" and/or "Everybody is going to put their credit cards on the table and/or bank cards and were going to swipe them to max them out" and/or "Everybody is going to apply for a $25,000 personal loan or line of credit from their bank". "Let's make a great investment on our great pinball and get this done!"

This goes two ways:

a) Everyone: "Absolutely!" - proof of ACTUAL dedication / belief in seeing this done

b) "Are you crazy? LOL, I'm not putting MY money into this" - the true test, and telling, no?

Quoted from burningman:

Down the road I can see DP not requiring the pre-order model but they really had no choice to get TBL off the ground.

Dream projects always have a choice. It's just that the easy/golden road of huge crowdsourcing was a meme instantly available and easily/quickly bankable in the current climate of the hobby at the time. They likely never even considered a personal penny to float final production.

They don't need to get money together to build 500 machines. They only need to pool their personal money to build 30-50 to start... then sell them. Get some margin/profit in the process, pay down some debt. Rinse. Repeat. Slowly, yes, they come up out of it with personal float shrinking and company float carrying its own weight.

I realize that getting parts/supplies for 30-50 averages more expensive than buying for 200-500 at once. So yes, smaller runs and re-runs DO cost more and margins are smaller. But thems the brakes. That's how it works to get rolling in pretty much any business startup. If the machine getting done is the true dream, as long as they simply break even per run (or as IPB years ago with BBB taking actual losses per machine) it gets done. Remember, pigs CAN fly. It's just a question of whether or not your piglets have the TRUE dedication or not. That includes financial contribution. The true test. What you're willing to risk your hard earned money/credit on - yourself.

If 30-50 people remain "in" with their seed money - its likely all still possible with just that. They may not have to get personal/team financial contributions involved at all. I'm just saying that the true test of meddle/dedication is not walking away if the free seed money is too little or non-existant.

#1516 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I really think people are unnecessarily worried about the Goodman part. Maybe that's why the gun has to come off, the weed, I dunno, but they're not going to have him not be in the game as far I understood.

Even if they do have to take him out, voice wise and video-wise, I'm sure some clever person will release an underground code that will have him back in... this will have nothing to do with DP of course and will be totally out of their control!

Quoted from KevinCPR:

Stop putting it on the hobby's shoulders. The boat CAN be kept afloat. This was my other point. It's not the end of the world if they are TRULY into this. All they have to do is this:

So if you think it should be irrelevant whether or not people are in at the pre-order stage, what is the actual reason for this to exist? Surely there is a benefit to the company if people are on-board at this stage, or they wouldn't try and entice people in...? Whatever that benefit is, I'd like that benefit to happen, for the benefit of the benefit...

#1517 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Surely there is a benefit to the company if people are on-board at this stage, or they wouldn't try and entice people in...?

I assume the benefit is not having to touch their own money or put their own skin in the game.

To not have to hold the suggested meeting I described above. The "audacity" to make the game happen on their OWN dime.

Of course its sweet to ask for most/all the cash up front from the hungry customers. The enticements (called "perks" I think on Kickstarter or Indegogo) are the concept of freebies or chotchkies that are given at the end. It's brilliant. A promise for something exclusive later, which will be bought by the money you front anyway! It's sooooooo easy. Yes, the easier path is to have people on-board. My point is that IF this machine MUST be run en masse, as purported by manufacturer and fan base - then regardless of free seed money, they should be willing to self finance and make it happen anyway. If they're THAT dedicated to their project/company.

I only joined into this thread to give perspective from a standpoint of an "oldschool" startup example in the hobby. One that was done without crowd funding. CPR was started regardless of a single seed dime from the hobby - because when you choose to put your OWN money/credit into your dream project, it happens **because you decided it will**. Period. Full stop. That, you CAN control. It's not based on the potentially shaky influx/outflux of public crowdsourcing funds. When it's your own $$$ , nobody will stop you. Your float won't unexpectedly shrink for some mis-step you may make, or change in direction you may have to take. The public simply sits there waiting for product (without opinion or control), that they decide to buy or not at the end. Oldschool.

Quoted from pinballslave:

Whatever that benefit is, I'd like that benefit to happen, for the benefit of the benefit...

Or even for the benefit of the benefit of the benefit !!!

#1518 4 years ago

My question is how they are able to fully refund the money to each pre order due to they invested much money from this pre orders to build BoP 2.0 and the TBL prototypes, going to various shows / conventions, etc ... I really hope they will build the TBL. It would be a disaster for the whole community, even if you paid in or not.

#1519 4 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

My question is how they are able to fully refund the money to each pre order due to they invested much money from this pre orders to build BoP 2.0 and the TBL prototypes, going to various shows / conventions, etc ?!

That is the question.

#1520 4 years ago

That is'nt a question but a suggestion.

-1
#1521 4 years ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

I assume the benefit is not having to touch their own money or put their own skin in the game.

To not have to hold the suggested meeting I described above. The "audacity" to make the game happen on their OWN dime.

Or, another benefit is that if they don't have all the money needed in their private accounts or they can't get sufficient bank loans or credit card loans, then the extra cash from deposits could be what makes or breaks it... this is the real world, and I'm sure these people simply don't have the necessary cash floating about to design and build these games before taking a penny from people who want to buy it... that's why, I believe, the pre-order model is there... and that's why the best chance of survival of this project is for people to not get/stay freaked out by recent events... In an ideal world, the deposits would be un-touched... they would just be there as a form of security for making a specific pre-ordered number of games... but to make something big like this, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the designers to have such amount of cash to pay for it all themselves... I think this is the real world, especially for a boutique designer who is trying to do something special... even more special than Stern who have the capitol to build a game off their own backs...

Quoted from KevinCPR:

Or even for the benefit of the benefit of the benefit !!!

You've lost me now

#1522 4 years ago
Quoted from Biv:

I'm sorry, but that is not true.
Her may be protecting himself and family, but not the "customers"
Yes, some that payed recently via Paypal have gotten a refund and may be happy.
But in general this behaviour endangered the whole TBL project much more than the whole licensing stuff and whatever Baary/Jaap were doing.
This also means that IF the DP ship should sink now, many more (potential) customers will be in jeopardy than Phil may have "saved" with his actions.
So no, I am not happy with his actions, though I see why he did it.
It's just that he also did it on the back of many customers and fans of DP.

I think he did it so he and his family wouldn't have been held liable for the potential marketing fiasco and sued for millions of dollars.

10
#1523 4 years ago
Quoted from Jgaltr56:

Guys - anybody that's been in business for themselves knows you cannot run a successful business without paying a good CPA and attorney now and then to keep everything in order so you can concentrate on what makes you money.

We're starting to see a trend with a lot of these companies; they're focused on the product, the design, engineering, artistry, but most of them are lacking real business leadership.

#1524 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

We're starting to see a trend with a lot of these companies; they're focused on the product, the design, engineering, artistry, but most of them are lacking real business leadership.

Internet is the motor and Kickstarter the fuel.
Add a little hype for fascinating ideas and a viral video for a free ad campaign..
95% of the time there's a big mess.

#1525 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

I think he did it so he and his family wouldn't have been held liable for the potential marketing fiasco and sued for millions of dollars.

Did he also accuse Barry of being a thief publically to help avoid being sued for millions of dollars and thus protect his family?

Quoted from KevinCPR:

CPR was started regardless of a single seed dime from the hobby - because when you choose to put your OWN money/credit into your dream project, it happens **because you decided it will**. Period. Full stop. That, you CAN control. It's not based on the potentially shaky influx/outflux of public crowdsourcing funds. When it's your own $$$ , nobody will stop you. Your float won't unexpectedly shrink for some mis-step you may make, or change in direction you may have to take. The public simply sits there waiting for product (without opinion or control), that they decide to buy or not at the end. Oldschool.

That's all well and good if you have the capitol needed to do it off your own back... and if you don't? If what you're planning to achieve costs more than you can afford yourself to fund? I guess I know the answer... don't start... but by not starting, by limiting what you do to what you can afford, you're going to struggle to make something special... unless you happen to be a millionaire...

#1526 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Did he also accuse Barry of being a thief publically to help avoid being sued for millions of dollars and thus protect his family?

I haven't read every single post, I don't recall reading one that accused anyone of anything. I read posts that showed facts of non-communication and seemingly unwilling to ever do so. IF Barry was willing to let Phil take the fall for DP, then I don't really care what Phil said. Of course we don't really know, and I would assume they are now talking, even if through lawyers, so it had the desired effect whether you agree with the tactic or not.

The crowd funding idea is a scam in my opinion, you may disagree, but I have tried it, I've 'invested' in three campaigns. Guess how many I've received what I bought, yup, ZERO. One is two years over, the others are approaching a year. I doubt I'll ever see anything, or if I do, it won't resemble what I was promised.

#1528 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

I haven't read every single post, I don't recall reading one that accused anyone of anything.

Well, that's what he did, and I just don't understand how that helps him or his family, despite his actions being apparently for that purpose... If someone can help me understand how this helps, I'll be a wiser man!

Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

The crowd funding idea is a scam in my opinion,

A scam is is basically a deceptive way to take peoples money with no intention of providing what was paid for... are you saying that you don't think DP had any intention to make any machines and were purely taking money from pre-orders to steal? If that's the case, why are we still hearing from them? Surely they'd have shut up shop now and vanished with all our cash? Personally I think they're actually planning to build TBL myself... and then give it to people who paid for it...

#1529 4 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

if you have the capitol needed to do it off your own back... and if you don't? If what you're planning to achieve costs more than you can afford yourself to fund?

You build a business plan, you pitch banks, you get loan(s), and then you start! Sounds easy ? Sure it's not, but that's the way business do (usually).

Sure, you'll have to pay interest on the money lended... but that's also a test: if the bank trusts your project, that's because you thought about it enough and shown enough business management and planning skills. If not... back to the drawing board and make it better.

#1530 4 years ago

I used to wonder what the DP business plan was, how many machines they expected to sell and to whom, how big the market was for an $8500 (now $9000) pinball and the titles that follow.

I wonder now if such a thing exists.

#1531 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Wow, a whole lot has transpired since I've been able to view the amazingness of this thread.
First thing, to clear it up for everybody, here is the difference with who is liable for what:
What DP USA should have is an LLC taxed as a partnership, they can share profits and losses disproportionately to their ownership %'s, certainly an enticement for any "new owner" coming on board.
With an LLC, depending on the state law, all you can get is what's called a "charging order" against the member's interest. What that means is that they don't get squat, other than a K-1 and the profits that go along with it, WITHOUT the cash to pay the taxes, thus, the best asset protection vehicle out there.
With a C corp or an S corp the creditor gets to step into the shoes of the shareholder and "take over" the operations of that ownership %, voting privileges, etc.
As for PERSONAL LIABILITY, there is no liability with any corporate entity from a personal standpoint UNLESS the creditor is able to pierce the corporate veil, no matter what type of entity it is.
You pierce the veil by the owners NOT following the corporate formalities, shareholder meetings, proper accounting practices, etc....
In a "partnership" the liabilities are "joint and several".
They should shut down DP USA, Inc., distribute the deposits back to the original depositors, file the articles of dissolution, get a certificate of good standing from the comptroller and it could be done tomorrow.
Then DP should set up a proper entity here in the US, as an LLC, with Roger or whomever as partner and move the fuck on. It's really not that F ing hard and can be done in a few days.
Give Phil a promissory note for what he's "out of pocket" and be done with it.
Next, before anybody dropped another DIME into this project, i would expect a "trust account" to be set up with monthly accounting and full disclosure to all the owners as to how the funds are being spent.
Make sense? Really simple yet transparency seems to be taboo with pinball.

This is not entirely true. But it meaningless because they never formed a legal entity in the US.

#1532 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

They should shut down DP USA, Inc., distribute the deposits back to the original depositors, file the articles of dissolution, get a certificate of good standing from the comptroller and it could be done tomorrow.

Then DP should set up a proper entity here in the US, as an LLC, with Roger or whomever as partner and move the fuck on. It's really not that F ing hard and can be done in a few days.

Give Phil a promissory note for what he's "out of pocket" and be done with it.

Next, before anybody dropped another DIME into this project, i would expect a "trust account" to be set up with monthly accounting and full disclosure to all the owners as to how the funds are being spent.

Make sense? Really simple yet transparency seems to be taboo with pinball.

Why don't they just hire this guy?

Any way you slice it, they really need some damage control.....now. Sending out a "dodge the bullet" we'll get back to you in the next few "days/weeks" doesn't do much for people. Go out, hire a PR guy / gal to address all the bad publicity, iceman44 to handle the legal end and move on.

I think sitting on your hands waiting for the fire to die down is the worst thing they can do.

10
#1533 4 years ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

Go out, hire a PR guy / gal to address all the bad publicity...

Kaneda.

#1535 4 years ago
Quoted from Rossz:

You build a business plan, you pitch banks, you get loan(s), and then you start! Sounds easy ? Sure it's not, but that's the way business do (usually).

Sure, you'll have to pay interest on the money lended... but that's also a test: if the bank trusts your project, that's because you thought about it enough and shown enough business management and planning skills. If not... back to the drawing board and make it better.

That's one way to do it... but what we're talking about here, I think, is what's happening with TBL and DP... whether they did it your way (the best way) or not, I feel the situation is that they need the potential customers support... if what they did is not the best way of doing it, is that a good reason to pull out? We want TBL to play in our homes and to enjoy (at least that's why I pre-ordered)... that's what this is about... not about what they should have done or how it's best to do it... Saying how it's best to do it isn't going to help I think... What will help (even if you don't like it) is to show our support by getting back on board, or just staying there...

#1536 4 years ago

Wow!!!
Great posts by Kevin from CPR.A real business man who has a real co. in pinball.Awesome insight.Real information based on experience rather than all of us speculators.However I have some questions.

1)How much does Roger Sharpe's services cost?Can DP afford him long term if it takes awhile to straighten stuff out?
2)How long to legally remove Phil and get set up as a legit US business?
3)How long to redesign/make changes?
4)How long to get everybody their refunds and/or reinvest those refunds if they come back?
5)Once/if these problems are straightened out,where and how will the games be built?Its been discussed(Skit B thread) that boutique co.s can make 2 to 3 games per week.If they are to deliver 500 games it would take 166 weeks(3 per week).

Maybe some these have been answered on here and I missed them but I feel these are legitimate concerns.

#1537 4 years ago
Quoted from JeffF:

gal to address all the bad publicity

Kaneda is a WOMAN??? I knew it

#1538 4 years ago

I wouldn't call it a scam since they made a working game... Misappropriations of money or using Peter to cover Paul's ass isn't the smartest move.

#1539 4 years ago

Dp has sourced out the production of the games. Thats no secret.

#1540 4 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

Dp has sourced out the production of the games.

Sourced out to who?
Stern or JJP?Because those are the only pinball factories I know of.Incidentally that would cost money too.

#1541 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I used to wonder what the DP business plan was, how many machines they expected to sell and to whom, how big the market was for an $8500 (now $9000) pinball and the titles that follow.
I wonder now if such a thing exists.

There have traditionally been two funding models for startups. The first, and most prevalent is the self-funded/networked model. This is where you put in your own cash and supplement that with $ from friends and family. They pitch in because 1) They think you are smart, ambitious, etc. and will be successful or 2) They have visions of the business becoming the next Facebook, Starbucks, etc. and believe their $5k will turn into $5mm. This is the easy way because you, your family and friends are investing in you and the idea. They don't care about a business plan. "It's a great idea" "Bob is such a hard worker and so smart" "I'm gonna be rich!"

The second funding model is via investors (bank, VC firms, etc.). They really don't care if you are nice, smart, ambitious, etc. (Ok they care about that a little bit). What they are focused on is the business plan. Have you done your homework, are all the risks identified, market research analysis completed, staffing model reasonable, logistical components in place, financial models make sense, etc.

What is interesting is this new model, i.e., the Kickstarter model being used by these small pinball companies. This model is really nothing more than the first one. One is simply expanding the 'family and friends' willing to invest in the business. You don't see the business plan so you have no idea if it is well thought out, complete and viable. The one difference is, in this case, you are investing in people you don't even know. You actually have less info about the people and the business plan than you have when your brother-in-law says 'Hey I've got a great idea for a business'

Obviously, your money, your risk. But I would only play this game with money I am willing to lose. And while I would be disappointed, I would not be shocked if it ended up badly.

#1542 4 years ago

No the games are produced in the Netherlands.

#1543 4 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

Wow!!!
Great posts by Kevin from CPR.A real business man who has a real co. in pinball.Awesome ....
5)Once/if these problems are straightened out,where and how will the games be built?Its been discussed(Skit B thread) that boutique co.s can make 2 to 3 games per week.If they are to deliver 500 games it would take 166 weeks(3 per week).
Maybe some these have been answered on here and I missed them but I feel these are legitimate concerns.

Where to built is an easy one as it can be found on their website, see http://www.thebiglebowskipinball.com/contact

They are not a boutique builder eg have more capacity as 2-3 games per week

#1544 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Maybe Inc. is reporting on a cash basis?
Perhaps the December 2nd date on the two screenshots below is not purely a coincidence?

Tax Delinquency Notice 12-02-201... 13 KB

331945.png 23 KB

Probably. That would explain the notice maybe. I cannot tell without seeing the actual notice though. A lot of times, business will get notices for failure to file, not necessarily that they owe tax. But yes, if they filed under cash basis (ill-advised in this situation), they would have to do what is called an accrual to cash conversion for their tax return essentially resulting in them picking up all those deposits as income and paying tax on them.

#1545 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

Collecting deposits on pins is not revenue, you receive cash and it goes to a liability account (i.o.u 1 pinball machine). When you ship the product to the customer, you then debit that liability account and credit revenue on the date that the product ships.
Buying materials to create pinball machines is also not an expense until the pinball machine is actually manufactured (the parts inventory is an asset, once you build the pin it is expensed by debiting cost of goods sold on the date the materials are put into a pinball machine).
So until the pins are being produced on the line and shipped to pre-order customers, you are just shifting assets around and therefore there are no net revenues to tax. DP's income statement right now would just be a bunch of overhead, promotion and travel expenses with no realized revenue.

See my previous post. For bookkeeping those deposits are not revenue, but for tax purposes they could be.

#1546 4 years ago

3273piss.gif

#1547 4 years ago
Quoted from Benboogaard:

No the games are produced in the Netherlands.

Is it a pinball assembly line type facility?i.e how many per week,how long would it take for pre orders to be filled?
The reason I ask is with all the focus of our community on the NEW problems nobody seems to be asking:"After youguys clean up, when do I get my game."

#1548 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

There is an in depth post on this lost on all the pages but you can withhold profit claims on it till a real product is made.

I don't know why someone thumbs downed you, you are correct.

Deferring revenue while also deferring cost is a pretty standard practice.

#1549 4 years ago

Just saw the pics of their facility.GOOD NEWS!!!!Finally a light!!!!

#1550 4 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

Sourced out to who?
Stern or JJP?Because those are the only pinball factories I know of.Incidentally that would cost money too.

To a electronics assembly contractor - the same kind of company that builds your electronics, etc. These types of contract manufacturers exist everywhere. From the PCB to assembled, packed product, these kinds of companies exist to manufacturer other people's products.

It's not a pinball-only factory

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