(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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#1401 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I'm very close to draining this myself.. nothing good is going to come out of this thread / Barry & Jaap won't be responding to all this crap point by point here.. they'll send out a letter to the customers. But it is hard to turn away.. Drain would fix that.
However, what keeps me from doing it so far is that I do have $4500, in theory, in the paypal account in question and the threat of RobT posting a "head in the sand".gif if he somehow found out i drained it.

You are safe. For now.

#1402 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

He had every right to refund the money he was responsible for if he couldn't guarantee its security. People who he sent refunds should be thankful.

The deposits were never guaranteed, and he could never guarantee the money's security. His actions hurt DP more than providing any attempt to protect those with deposits. He has created panic among the preorders.

Quoted from YKpinballer:

He also knew that starting the refund process would force them to address the issues. They kept him in charge of DP US, he told them what he was going to do, he carried it through. Had they managed their business, the refunds wouldn't have happened.

I agree with you that DP failed to handle his termination correctly. But Phil chose not to address the issues in a professional manner, instead choosing to create chaos for the company.

Quoted from YKpinballer:

In Phil's mind he was protecting himself, his family and the customers. He did it at great personal cost

He may have been protecting himself and his family, but he created more conflict with his actions. He acted in a manner that would cause the DP to suffer, and potentially hurt buyers with preorder money on the line. He wanted out, and considered his money lost. His actions exacerbated the risk to all the preorders.

I think the remaining DP partners have responded in a professional manner simply by refraining from this thread.

#1403 4 years ago
Quoted from yonkiman:

??? I've had something like a 9/10 success ratio for actual Kickstarter projects ranging from $25 to $1800. No one expects "something for nothing" - participants expect something for our $25 or $1800 or whatever. As in any business exchange there's a chance something bad will happen due to chance or bad scruples, but there's nothing inherently wrong with helping to finance a cool idea knowing there is some risk. That's how a lot of businesses get started.

Well....it can go the other way. I am 1 for 4 on kickstarter projects including JJP and will never do another one for any product.

#1404 4 years ago
Quoted from JDee:

Here: » YouTube video

And It's Gone! - funny South Park video ... but does not apply in this situation.

#1405 4 years ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

Why does it have to suck that there wouldn't be crowd funding available for boutique startups?
This doesn't have to be the end of boutique startups. They just need to get back to how it's always been done.
New boutiques just need to get their staff together, and if they're truly THAT passionate about starting a manufacturing line to make their machine en masse, they will all go out and secure $50,000 loans (each), or second mortgages, or max their credit cards, and/or sink their retirement savings into their company. That's what groups of entrepreneurs do if they have a dream.
This whole thread has blown me away, and I just wanted to step in and say as a 10-year-AFTER-startup pinball company, that the recent "kickstarting" or "crowd funding" model the last couple years blows my mind. When CPR started, yes we had a dream, yes we had a plan of what we wanted to be able to do... but like any business dream, on the side or otherwise, you need to finance it to get it going. I cannot begin to tell you the extent that we went into hock to buy everything we needed. Loans, credit lines, credit cards, savings... ALL maxed and spent. With minimum payments due every month or course. Personally (and I'm being completely honest here) I nearly lost my house back in 2007. Yes. The timing of the completion of the BK playfield pairs was 6 months later than originally planned, and due to that bad timing, there was nothing we could pay ourselves with for a very long period of time. When it was just two of us, my partner had a full time job, he was OK. I had switched to CPR exclusively a year prior. So with a house 4 months in arrears, the bank started foreclosure proceedings. Plus monthly payments on *everything* were missing. Thanks to a good friend of mine, she opened a credit line in her name, and cut me a cheque to pay the bank and ward off the foreclosure. The house (with a basement full of BK's) was saved to live another month or two. We made it to the BK release. It took many years to pay all our original debt down. But we came out the other side. That's what you DO. IMHO. That's what it takes.
I think it's obvious the difference when a company is liable to it's own financing. In your mind, put yourself in the place of both models, and feel the difference. I can certainly tell you that when it's YOUR money you've risked, and interest is ticking on you, there is a HUGE candle under your butt to perform & produce. You have to. You don't have a choice.
The existence of interest free, unreporting (credit bureau), and no-monthly-payment loans handed over so nonchallantly to seed major projects of this scale... boggle me. I wouldn't have been able to sleep at night if we had ever financed like that. Risking/holding/spending customers' money. Plus what I read (amongst many) a cavalier attitude toward no-recovery loss. Things like "It's my risk, meh. If I lose it, I lose it" W-O-W So being funded this way also means that if you end up not reaching the finish line, your seeders aren't even going to come calling? They "knew the risk", and just casually blow it off? What a utopian financing. No-strings-attached financing? That's why I can't believe it's become so prevalent, and so accepted. Maybe the cavalier attitude toward loss is just a brave face. I would think $5000+ if ever truly lost, to anybody, would be a big deal. Methinks.
All I can say is, we never had even an inkling of such a concept/meme in the hobby back in 2004-2005 when we started. Times have changed !
My 2 cents from a personal perspective...

#1406 4 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

He wanted out, and considered his money lost. His actions exacerbated the risk to all the preorders.

He wanted out, and if the other 2 owners didn't agree that the company was in trouble, they would have been happy to take his 33% at no cost to themselves. Instead they tried to keep him on the hook for his share against his will. That alone should make the customers with preorders nervous.

You may not like his methods, but again, he got the cold shoulder until he went public. Regarding the lawyer, maybe he could afford one but can't afford the years of negotiating it would take to settle it. Keep in mind he's on Chemo and their lawyer would just try to stall, costing everybody big $.

34
#1407 4 years ago

This whole thing is a pile of shit...

Like most of you, all of my information was coming directly from Phil. Or the newsletters that were sent out from Phil. I don't recall Barry or Jaap standing in front of everyone at Expo acting like the big shot talking about licensing, talking down about Pinball manufactures or having private meetings with individuals telling them secrets of what was to come just to get the sale.

I know if my partners told me to get up on stage and say things that are not true, I would say "you do it." And although I am not lifelong friends, from what I do know of Barry and Jaap, they are not head strong. They understand that this is a small community and making enemies in the business is not a good idea.

What? Songs are not licensed? Phil told me they were? The more I hear the more I realize that Phil was a yes man. He will tell you anything to get you in on a pre-order. What other cool stuff has Phil told you to get in? I have a laundry list of cool things that he said were coming but will not talk about it because who knows if any of it is true. Christ, he was letting some guys get in on pre-orders with out collecting a dime.

Oh yeah, all you guys who are still looking for T-shirts....Phil was in charge of that too. I finally got fed up with it and just bought my own. If you are still waiting for a shirt, rest assured you will get them. Scott is on it. I witnessed him making out labels at MP on Saturday night, but I don't think the guys that are asking for refunds will get theirs.

Regarding taxes, WTF. If you signed up with your own SS number on a company and never once thought about the taxes at the end of the year, well...as they say, you get what you get. Was this really something he just realized? Also, as others have pointed out, you don't just throw your hands up and say I want out. Not quite that simple.

As most know I am a pre-order from day one. Fully paid, just waiting for my machine. Anyone that does jump ship, regardless of fear of the sky falling, thinking that DP are crooks, making allegations of fraud or just hanging back saying I will just wait till it gets to a distributor, you may want to be a little less forthcoming. We all have reasons for getting out, but to expect to hang back and have DP allow you to come back in at the same spot on the list that you were in is bull shit. If you are out, you are out, and I would suggest to Barry and Jaap the same. You want back in, get in the back of the line, pay your $9,000, (if thats the price then) and you will get a machine. I would not expect any kind gestures from DP to those who are non-believers, and it will piss me off if DP is a nice guy to all of those who had no faith in them.

And to all the ass hats that think I am affiliated with DP or getting special treatment I am not. I believe in these guys, the company they are building, and the teachings of The Church of the Latter-Day Dude. No more, no less.

#1408 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

Kevin, I think you're missing one of the most important details about crowd-funding (and in my opinion, also the reason why crowd-funding and kickstarter have become so popular). Unlike traditional means of finding investors or borrowing money, crowd-funding platforms like Kickstarter bring the projects to the people who want to back them because they believe in the product or company. Normally, you're pitching to people who just want to make money. The downside to this is that when pitching to people who want to make money, you are put in your place and turned down if the idea isn't going to make money or you don't have your finances in order (Dragon's Den shows this off better than anything else); On Kickstarter, you're not held up to that same standard, and the majority of people backing projects don't have a background to hold you up to those same high standards.

Exactly! And those lack of stringent standards are why pre-ordering a pin from a new company who has never made a pin is so risky. Generally this means that they were not able to find enough investors to get the game off the ground otherwise, so they need the crowdfunding from the hobbiest.

The new pin companies are asking for money from people (us) who are not nearly as objective about the risks involved as normal investors would be.

They are appealing to their (sometime over zealous) love of the hobby, and desire for a certain theme and/or features etc. in a new pinball machine. They aren't being particularly objective and may not realize what the true risks are. They don't have a true understanding of what kind of financial or other backing the new company actually has.

And yes, I realize completely that there are plenty of people who pre-order these pins with a complete acknowledgment that it is in fact a risky proposition, but they feel confident enough to put their money on the line in order to get the pin produced, so I do not mean to paint with an overly wide brush here, but I do think that we tend to think more with our emotions than our logic when it comes to these kinds of pre-orders. And I say that as someone who was in on the original JPop offering of his Zombie themed pin (i.e, I am guilty as well).

In sum, I hate the idea of putting virtually all the risks involved with whether a new company will make it or not on the hobbiest, rather than the company itself. And that's exactly what crowdfunding does.

#1409 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

And to all the ass hats that think I am affiliated with DP or getting special treatment I am not. I believe in these guys, the company they are building, and the teachings of The Church of the Latter-Day Dude. No more, no less.

That was awesome.

One good thing about Barry's (?) email is he said he will answer all emails within two weeks. That would be a welcome change.

#1410 4 years ago

So, I have to apply for a VA loan to get a home that I NEED to live in, but boutique pinball companies are asking for customer money to get started? Passion, desire, and good intentions are great - but even the best of intentions have resulted with the most tragic of results.

Needs vs wants here. Once again, when emotion takes over logic - watch out... hope everyone gets their monies back, if not, wow, what an expen$ive tragedy: never pay for something you don't own TODAY.

Quoted from KevinCPR:

Everything Kevin said

Kevin, that was probably one of the best responses I have ever seen, and to me, you're 100% right. When it's YOUR MONEY, you got more than a candle under your butt...you've got a fricking blowtorch....

All the best to Phil with regards to this situation. Just, wow, and this was considered to be the most well put together and promising of all the boutique games and then .....well....I think Sylar said it best:

#1411 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

He wanted out, and if the other 2 owners didn't agree that the company was in trouble, they would have been happy to take his 33% at no cost to themselves. Instead they tried to keep him on the hook for his share against his will. That alone should make the customers with preorders nervous.

O.. M.. G..

#1412 4 years ago

Is there anything to gain really being first in line? Early adopters will basically be the beta testers for the equipment to get all the bugs out. From the looks of the machine this will be a great game but it's also complex, I wouldn't be counting on it to run perfect right out the gate...

#1413 4 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

He has created panic among the preorders

Panic because it was false? Or panic because people finally got to see behind the curtain?

Should we go back and lookup the posts about when Phil left in the first place? It's virtually deja vu... people complaining about lack of meeting commitments, lack of details from DP, etc

Some of the foreshadowing there is epic.. like this post

Quoted from iceman44:

That's a joke right? Haha The marketing guy is the bookkeeper too.

- in response to someone recalling Phil handled deposits..

Another fun one...

Quoted from Nikonokin:

It's obvious they have a disagreement and can't come to terms, and that email was a punch from Phil. If they were parting amicably we would have received a newsletter or email from DP explaining, not a one off from Phil with no solid info. That's a sign they had a falling out and he's pissed. Our pin is fine. Our marketing in the air. Phil did a great job btw...but randomly sending that email was clearly his way at lashing out.

Then it gets real good as Phil hints about the looming problems.. and we get this kind of response. What a setup for what's to come..

Quoted from aeonblack:

If you're going to air your dirty laundry in public, you might as well put your shitty underwear out too.
Phil already made it the business of people other than those involved when he sent out that email. He did it in a manner that struck me (and many others) as spiteful. Then he came here and made a comment that also struck me as spiteful. He put it out in the open, and if he's half the man people here talk him up to be, he'll either put up (further information on the subject) or shut up. Quite frankly, he should shut up, as he probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place.
But, at the end of the day: fuck it, let's go bowling.

NOTICABLY absent from the current thread is Mr68 who was working hard to say 'nothing to see here...' oops.. egg's on you.

But this is my favorite in hindsight...

Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Too ignore road signs is literally stupid. Now they can also be misread but certainly don't ignore them.

#1414 4 years ago
Quoted from KevinCPR:

Why does it have to suck that there wouldn't be crowd funding available for boutique startups?

This doesn't have to be the end of boutique startups. They just need to get back to how it's always been done.

New boutiques just need to get their staff together, and if they're truly THAT passionate about starting a manufacturing line to make their machine en masse, they will all go out and secure $50,000 loans (each), or second mortgages, or max their credit cards, and/or sink their retirement savings into their company. That's what groups of entrepreneurs do if they have a dream.

This whole thread has blown me away, and I just wanted to step in and say as a 10-year-AFTER-startup pinball company, that the recent "kickstarting" or "crowd funding" model the last couple years blows my mind. When CPR started, yes we had a dream, yes we had a plan of what we wanted to be able to do... but like any business dream, on the side or otherwise, you need to finance it to get it going. I cannot begin to tell you the extent that we went into hock to buy everything we needed. Loans, credit lines, credit cards, savings... ALL maxed and spent. With minimum payments due every month or course. Personally (and I'm being completely honest here) I nearly lost my house back in 2007. Yes. The timing of the completion of the BK playfield pairs was 6 months later than originally planned, and due to that bad timing, there was nothing we could pay ourselves with for a very long period of time. When it was just two of us, my partner had a full time job, he was OK. I had switched to CPR exclusively a year prior. So with a house 4 months in arrears, the bank started foreclosure proceedings. Plus monthly payments on *everything* were missing. Thanks to a good friend of mine, she opened a credit line in her name, and cut me a cheque to pay the bank and ward off the foreclosure. The house (with a basement full of BK's) was saved to live another month or two. We made it to the BK release. It took many years to pay all our original debt down. But we came out the other side. That's what you DO. IMHO. That's what it takes.

I think it's obvious the difference when a company is liable to it's own financing. In your mind, put yourself in the place of both models, and feel the difference. I can certainly tell you that when it's YOUR money you've risked, and interest is ticking on you, there is a HUGE candle under your butt to perform & produce. You have to. You don't have a choice.

The existence of interest free, unreporting (credit bureau), and no-monthly-payment loans handed over so nonchallantly to seed major projects of this scale... boggle me. I wouldn't have been able to sleep at night if we had ever financed like that. Risking/holding/spending customers' money. Plus what I read (amongst many) a cavalier attitude toward no-recovery loss. Things like "It's my risk, meh. If I lose it, I lose it" W-O-W So being funded this way also means that if you end up not reaching the finish line, your seeders aren't even going to come calling? They "knew the risk", and just casually blow it off? What a utopian financing. No-strings-attached financing? That's why I can't believe it's become so prevalent, and so accepted. Maybe the cavalier attitude toward loss is just a brave face. I would think $5000+ if ever truly lost, to anybody, would be a big deal. Methinks.

All I can say is, we never had even an inkling of such a concept/meme in the hobby back in 2004-2005 when we started. Times have changed !

My 2 cents from a personal perspective...

Well said Kevin, very well said. Having your own skin in the game does indeed make a very big difference

11
#1415 4 years ago
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

And I think you would endorse their pre-order model, $1500 now and not another dime until its ready to be built and shipped.

Well you'd be wrong, because I don't endorse that model. Sending in money for a game you've never even seen a photo of? Madness. You can't even tell me what it looks like! You've seen some 3D renders and a drawing, and nothing else. You don't know what they're using from the movie, what the screen embedded in the playfield will do. The designer quit because he didn't think the deadline was reasonable. Hell no would I endorse spending a dime on that *right now*.

After they show the game, sure. Awesome theme, a company that has a build under their belt, might work out. I'm not down on them at all. But it's way too early to call. And that's the whole point. Wait until they show their cards before you show them cash.

#1416 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Christ, he was letting some guys get in on pre-orders with out collecting a dime.

I want to join that list of the few, the proud, the no money down preorder Achievers! If you don't have the $2.5K now during Expo are you telling me you will have 10K come April? Phil sounds more like a bankster not a marketing guru.

10
#1417 4 years ago
Quoted from JDee:

Funny thing is that if everybody asks for a refund, they'll no longer have funds and collapse.
They're doom'd anyway.

Quoted from JDee:

I wouldn't even buy at 1/10th.. No way I'm buying it at half.

Quoted from JDee:

If for you risking 900 bucks is not that big deal, you already did the math. I'm sure that people who are in, right now, are starting to do the math too
As I already said: good luck with your falling knife.

Quoted from JDee:

This is the spot where people who are still in, try to sell their pre-order at 50-70% of the price in order to get out quite safely.
Will this time catching the falling knife be a smart move?

This is the "spot" where people realize that you have absolutely nothing of value to add to this thread, you sound like the kind of person who chases ambulances to accident scenes.

Thread Troll eject on aisle 1 please

10
#1418 4 years ago

Can someone make me a t-shirt (large) for reading this whole thread? Anybody else do it?

There are seriously so many good nuggets of wisdom contained within this thread that it makes for a good business case study and I recommend reading it again from the beginning. Of course you have to wade through the crap, illogical arguments and poor insight and be able to filter out the noise. At least it is fun thumbing where needed.

My take away is

1) Serious accounting irregularities may have occurred and DP needs to hire a Business Manager with some corporate accounting experience ...stat (asap). Current Team does not possess the expertise to accomplish this has resulted in a significant loss of credibility.

2) Requests for refunds need to be processed right away.

3) DP-NV needs to negotiate a fair release for Phil of DP-USA (no, he shouldn't get screwed for being unable to work with existing Team. Having him walk away with zero profit for his portion of risk carried is not fair. Even offering him a fixed amount payable based on future earnings is cool but do not take advantage of someone battling serious health issues. You brought the guy in as a friend and investor, don't punish the man for being a whistle blower, as he was kind of right about everything. DP-NV has problems, fortunately they are all fixable if you bring in the right talent).

4) Roger Sharp is gong to be involved in licensing - woohoo. If anyone can get the job done it is Roger. If DP-NV follows advice of Roger they should be able to steer clear of a catastrophic license meltdown. I guess changes to the design will be forthcoming, we'll have to wait and see. Sorry, Roger's involvement will not effect the funding and payments issues, he is strictly helping lead negotiations with Uni.

5) Many people that were previously pre-paying, including myself, are still interested in buying TBL, but only after it is ready for production and with further info. Based on items 1 & 2, I'm out. There are some additional issues of truthfulness that are harder to discern. Classic he-said she-said. Ignoring all that for now.

Personally I don't think a refunding of a bunch of pre-pay accounts is going to have much effect on DP. Most of that money is being held for actual production costs. DP probably only needs 20 preorders to stay in (at $4500 level) to have enough cash flow until Spring when production would begin. Maybe increase to twice that level or 40 orders needed to be able to hire the business manager.

With most people still interested in getting the game plus new customers following closely, a successful launch could result in 500 pins sold eventually. The real question is what effect licensing restrictions will have on this product AND how effective their new business manager is (DP-NV better act quickly or someone is gonna have the IRS and Dutch version of IRS crawling so deep up their asses, they might stumble upon a wondering band of rogue UNI lawyers)

#1419 4 years ago

Fuckin PINGATE.....

Jesus.jpeg DP....Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy shit with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fucking trigger 'til it goes "click."

#1420 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

This whole thing is a pile of shit...
Like most of you, all of my information was coming directly from Phil. Or the newsletters that were sent out from Phil. I don't recall Barry or Jaap standing in front of everyone at Expo acting like the big shot talking about licensing, talking down about Pinball manufactures or having private meetings with individuals telling them secrets of what was to come just to get the sale.
I know if my partners told me to get up on stage and say things that are not true, I would say "you do it." And although I am not lifelong friends, from what I do know of Barry and Jaap, they are not head strong. They understand that this is a small community and making enemies in the business is not a good idea.
What? Songs are not licensed? Phil told me they were? The more I hear the more I realize that Phil was a yes man. He will tell you anything to get you in on a pre-order. What other cool stuff has Phil told you to get in? I have a laundry list of cool things that he said were coming but will not talk about it because who knows if any of it is true. Christ, he was letting some guys get in on pre-orders with out collecting a dime.
Oh yeah, all you guys who are still looking for T-shirts....Phil was in charge of that too. I finally got fed up with it and just bought my own. If you are still waiting for a shirt, rest assured you will get them. Scott is on it. I witnessed him making out labels at MP on Saturday night, but I don't think the guys that are asking for refunds will get theirs.
Regarding taxes, WTF. If you signed up with your own SS number on a company and never once thought about the taxes at the end of the year, well...as they say, you get what you get. Was this really something he just realized? Also, as others have pointed out, you don't just throw your hands up and say I want out. Not quite that simple.
As most know I am a pre-order from day one. Fully paid, just waiting for my machine. Anyone that does jump ship, regardless of fear of the sky falling, thinking that DP are crooks, making allegations of fraud or just hanging back saying I will just wait till it gets to a distributor, you may want to be a little less forthcoming. We all have reasons for getting out, but to expect to hang back and have DP allow you to come back in at the same spot on the list that you were in is bull shit. If you are out, you are out, and I would suggest to Barry and Jaap the same. You want back in, get in the back of the line, pay your $9,000, (if thats the price then) and you will get a machine. I would not expect any kind gestures from DP to those who are non-believers, and it will piss me off if DP is a nice guy to all of those who had no faith in them.
And to all the ass hats that think I am affiliated with DP or getting special treatment I am not. I believe in these guys, the company they are building, and the teachings of The Church of the Latter-Day Dude. No more, no less.

Half of the people never asked for refunds. The other half of us (me included) were told to ask for refunds from the first DP email addressing this "Phil" issue. Getting a refund was never my intention. But, with that email from Dutch Pinball stating that if I hadn't received a refund (from DP USA - the one Phil sent without anyones knowledge) yet, that I will need to fill out a Paypal dispute. Which I can't. Then, once I get it, reapply it to my account. I feel left in the dark with no answers.

This isn't our fault. You make it sound like we are trying to back out because we "don't believe"?? And should be punished? Quite the opposite. I'm trying to get a refund because I got an email from Dutch Pinball that told me to. And from there, I haven't even been told what the next step would be if I wanted to keep my place in line...

Maybe I read your post incorrectly, and if I did I apologize.

Brian

16
#1421 4 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Can someone make me a t-shirt (large) for reading this whole thread?

dp_pinball_shirt.jpg

#1422 4 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Half of the people never asked for refunds. The other half of us (me included) were told to ask for refunds from the first DP email addressing this "Phil" issue. Getting a refund was never my intention. But, with that email from Dutch Pinball stating that if I hadn't received a refund (from DP USA - the one Phil sent without anyones knowledge) yet, that I will need to fill out a Paypal dispute. Which I can't. Then, once I get it, reapply it to my account. I feel left in the dark with no answers.
This isn't our fault. You make it sound like we are trying to back out because we "don't believe"?? And should be punished? Quite the opposite. I'm trying to get a refund because I got an email from Dutch Pinball that told me to. And from there, I haven't even been told what the next step would be if I wanted to keep my place in line...
Maybe I read your post incorrectly, and if I did I apologize.
Brian

Sorry Brian...I got a refund from Phil as well and resubmitted it back on my pre-order page. I am making reference to guys that are bailing because of the allegations going on/sky is falling mentality. If you are asking for a refund because you can't take the heat...then you need to get in the back of the line. If you are only doing what you were told to stay in, welcome to the Big Hairy Sack Club.

This will all get straightened out. Barry will be working the e-mail's over the next few weeks. DP wants you to stay in, and anyone on the pre-order list that are making their payments are good.

-2
#1423 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

He's still my friend, and I still car about his family. I'm sitting here crying my eyes out becaus of what iu have to do.
barry please
please

OK, shenanigans.
This whole thing no longer sounds believable to me.
One thing to out them. Another to keep releasing docs, after doc.
Some texts appear one sided, no response from the other party, just Phil gong on and on it seems with him self?
Phil appeared to be quite the salesman at Expo.,
DP silence is deafening and a huge problem for them.
I am, sure DP has been advised to say nothing.

A lot of damage has been done and I think its game over on this one..gonna to be in over seas court forever..

I would get any money back I could as fast as I could.

#1424 4 years ago

Hiring Roger Sharpe as an outside consultant to address the licensing issues was a good long-term move, but the most serious issue for Dutch Pinball (BV and Inc.) at the moment is the entity's short-term viability as a going-concern.

The two Dutch partners would be wise to hire a business turnaround specialist behind the scenes... someone with crisis management expertise, financial skills and contacts, and the ability to raise capital quickly. Regardless of the licensing concerns (which appear to be real), DP is facing a potential liquidity crisis due to the actions of one of its partners and a collapse of confidence amongst its most important stakeholders (i.e., pre-order customers who have been financing this company throughout the development cycle).

If the business can't survive in the short-term, due to liquidity issues, the long-term issues related to licensing are moot.

#1425 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Sorry Brian...I got a refund from Phil as well and resubmitted it back on my pre-order page. I am making reference to guys that are bailing because of the allegations going on/sky if falling mentality. If you are asking for a refund because you can't take the heat...then you need to get in the back of the line. If you are only doing what you were told to stay in, welcome to the Big Hairy Sack Club.
This will all get straightened out. Barry will be working the e-mail's over the next few weeks. DP wants you to stay in, and anyone on the pre-order list that are making their payments are good.

Getting the BoP 2.0 early January, for me, is going to speak volumes. Well, and along with my $4500 for TBL not disappearing. This email / Paypal fight is getting exhausting.

#1426 4 years ago
Quoted from wolftownjeff:

OK, shenanigans.
This whole thing no longer sounds believable to me.
One thing to out them. Another to keep releasing docs, after doc.
Some texts appear one sided, no response from the other party, just Phil gong on and on it seems with him self?
Phil appeared to be quite the salesman at Expo.,
DP silence is deafening and a huge problem for them.
I am, sure DP has been advised to say nothing.
A lot of damage has been done and I think its game over on this one..gonna to be in over seas court forever..
I would get any money back I could as fast as I could.

#1427 4 years ago

I have read a lot of this thread, 20+ pages worth, but not all of it , nor do I have any scratch in the game but has anyone considered the possibility that DP actually produces enough machines to fulfill their pre order commitments and then closes up shop.
I would guess your game just doubled in value, and talk about a true LE !!!!

#1428 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

This will all get straightened out. Barry will be working the e-mail's over the next few weeks. DP wants you to stay in, and anyone on the pre-order list that are making their payments are good.

Burningman it sounds like you've got a crystal ball or magic 8 ball there that you seem pretty confident in.

What does it say for those that "can't take the heat" and want out - we getting our money out like they stated we could,or would you consider this punishment for being a "non-believer"?

Rod

#1429 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

You want back in, get in the back of the line, pay your $9,000, (if thats the price then) and you will get a machine. I would not expect any kind gestures from DP to those who are non-believers, and it will piss me off if DP is a nice guy to all of those who had no faith in them.

Remind Barry some of us didn't grab the torch and pitchfork at the first sign and tried to inject some sense into the lynch mob.

#1430 4 years ago
Quoted from golfingdad1:

I have read a lot of this thread, 20+ pages worth, but not all of it , nor do I have any scratch in the game but has anyone considered the possibility that DP actually produces enough machines to fulfill their pre order commitments and then closes up shop.
I would guess your game just doubled in value, and talk about a true LE !!!!

I hope this doesn't happen. I want to see multiple production runs of this game. I want to see it everywhere. If they can work things out, I think this will be a very popular game.

12
#1431 4 years ago
Quoted from pinghetto:

Getting the BoP 2.0 early January, for me, is going to speak volumes. Well, and along with my $4500 for TBL not disappearing. This email / Paypal fight is getting exhausting.

You need a beer. I can pick some up but I'd have to be prepaid before you stop over.

#1432 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

This whole thing is a pile of shit...
Like most of you, all of my information was coming directly from Phil. Or the newsletters that were sent out from Phil. I don't recall Barry or Jaap standing in front of everyone at Expo acting like the big shot talking about licensing, talking down about Pinball manufactures or having private meetings with individuals telling them secrets of what was to come just to get the sale.
I know if my partners told me to get up on stage and say things that are not true, I would say "you do it." And although I am not lifelong friends, from what I do know of Barry and Jaap, they are not head strong. They understand that this is a small community and making enemies in the business is not a good idea.
What? Songs are not licensed? Phil told me they were? The more I hear the more I realize that Phil was a yes man. He will tell you anything to get you in on a pre-order. What other cool stuff has Phil told you to get in? I have a laundry list of cool things that he said were coming but will not talk about it because who knows if any of it is true. Christ, he was letting some guys get in on pre-orders with out collecting a dime.
Oh yeah, all you guys who are still looking for T-shirts....Phil was in charge of that too. I finally got fed up with it and just bought my own. If you are still waiting for a shirt, rest assured you will get them. Scott is on it. I witnessed him making out labels at MP on Saturday night, but I don't think the guys that are asking for refunds will get theirs.
Regarding taxes, WTF. If you signed up with your own SS number on a company and never once thought about the taxes at the end of the year, well...as they say, you get what you get. Was this really something he just realized? Also, as others have pointed out, you don't just throw your hands up and say I want out. Not quite that simple.
As most know I am a pre-order from day one. Fully paid, just waiting for my machine. Anyone that does jump ship, regardless of fear of the sky falling, thinking that DP are crooks, making allegations of fraud or just hanging back saying I will just wait till it gets to a distributor, you may want to be a little less forthcoming. We all have reasons for getting out, but to expect to hang back and have DP allow you to come back in at the same spot on the list that you were in is bull shit. If you are out, you are out, and I would suggest to Barry and Jaap the same. You want back in, get in the back of the line, pay your $9,000, (if thats the price then) and you will get a machine. I would not expect any kind gestures from DP to those who are non-believers, and it will piss me off if DP is a nice guy to all of those who had no faith in them.
And to all the ass hats that think I am affiliated with DP or getting special treatment I am not. I believe in these guys, the company they are building, and the teachings of The Church of the Latter-Day Dude. No more, no less.

^^ stockholm syndrome.

#1433 4 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Burningman it sounds like you've got a crystal ball or magic 8 ball there that you seem pretty confident in.
What does it say for those that "can't take the heat" and want out - we getting our money out like they stated we could,or would you consider this punishment for being a "non-believer"?
Rod

Rod...its pretty simple. From the beginning Phil said...no wait, DP said on its website so we know its true......anyone can ask for a refund prior to their game going into production. You are out.

Now if Barry said to request a refund and resubmit your payment to straighten out your account thats one thing. But if you ask for a refund because you can't take the heat and want to wait until there is more revealed or want to wait until you are "comfortable"....get in the back of the line.

#1434 4 years ago

Way down hill after post like #1250. I read up to there, and a bit past, with great interest and learned quite a lot as a Pinside newbie. The last handful of posts seem to be from parties with more at stake in this than a pre-order/TBL machine.... not helpful imo.

To the OP - keep yo money or git it back if you repaid. Unless you're o.k. with the risk of losing what you have into it and not receiving a game. It's freaking Big Lebowski... I'm keeping my uninitiated refund and Pinballing it elsewhere but omg do I recognize that if I see one of these things in the States in person working in the next 10 years I'm going to feel the urge to offer $15k+ for it.

Lost count of how many times I've seen and quoted and loved the movie. I stopped bowling when I got Pinballs but my word do I make a killer White Russian. TBL was gonna be my first NIB too. Since I've pulled out and gone with another NIB...... I recognize I'll be left with that regret for the rest of my life if TBL ever hits the States.

IMO there is no reason to continue rehashing the DP / Phil / Barry details and speculations to answer the original question. It's now simply a personal choice based on one's own risk tolerance and affinity for a LANDMARK machine that could possibly (read, may not) ever exist.

DP as an entity has more at stake than any of us pre-order holders or abandoners. Speculation on past/current/future 'truths' that we will never know the answer too is largely irrelevant to the purchase decision at this point.

#1435 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Well you'd be wrong, because I don't endorse that model. Sending in money for a game you've never even seen a photo of? Madness. You can't even tell me what it looks like! You've seen some 3D renders and a drawing, and nothing else. You don't know what they're using from the movie, what the screen embedded in the playfield will do. The designer quit because he didn't think the deadline was reasonable. Hell no would I endorse spending a dime on that *right now*.
After they show the game, sure. Awesome theme, a company that has a build under their belt, might work out. I'm not down on them at all. But it's way too early to call. And that's the whole point. Wait until they show their cards before you show them cash.

I respect your stance, and can't imagine your disappointment in recent events regarding DP, as I know you were very excited ( as a lot of Pinsiders). Freakin soap opera stuff, for sure. Yours is sound advise, and please know I'm just shedding my individual take on the Heighway scenario: Never preordered a pin before ( and may not again), but I viewed Alien in a completely different light.....

For me ( and could be wrong)....but believe Andrew when he stated it was more of a commitment to a theme ( machine) regarding the refundable deposit, vs. needing this as kickstart money. No way $1500 from a maximum of 500 pre orders is going to build a company, and I don't view Heighway as a " boutique" ( could be wrong again). No " hard sell" ever implied on his behalf( not even close).

I fully risked, of my own choice, $1500.00 to get a game that could be simply unobtanium in Asheville down the road. Alien is my dream theme for a horror based theme, and if I don't like it, I'll sell it.

If Heighway collapses ( has happened to bigger " real" companies, but I just don't see it)...I'll pursue a refund. If I lose, I lose. That said, I think a lot would have to be wrong with this machine for me not to enjoy it. Theme just too good. Company has already built a reasonable amount of other games ( the Bacardi thing).

I hope everything works out ( somehow) in the DP mess for those with vested interest...certainly have heard from one side, the other (2) will eventually surface, and the truth will be somewhere in between all of it. Just maybe... Phil gets his health, and the Pin gets made. ......mark

#1436 4 years ago

CAM00420.jpg

#1437 4 years ago

I am happy to wait....let them build it, announce a distributor and ship it here first.
If it costs more, well so be it...that's life. If I like the game enough I will buy it but let the company put it's money where it's mouth is and produce before asking for any $$.
STOP this pre order madness now!

#1438 4 years ago

So did anyone who got a refund put another down payment in to the new PayPal account?

#1439 4 years ago

Wow. That is a really bad picture of me.
Im much more handsome in person.

#1440 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

kaboom.jpg 68 KB

It's just a fuse.

21
#1441 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Rod...its pretty simple. From the beginning Phil said...no wait, DP said on its website so we know its true......anyone can ask for a refund prior to their game going into production. You are out.
Now if Barry said to request a refund and resubmit your payment to straighten out your account thats one thing. But if you ask for a refund because you can't take the heat and want to wait until there is more revealed or want to wait until you are "comfortable"....get in the back of the line.

You act like the back of the line is this horrible thing, lol. There are only a few possible scenarios here:

a) DP goes bust, nobody gets a game
b) DP makes the games, but at a super slow rate
c) DP makes the games, but with high production

Well if it's a) you lose a ton of money. If it's b), you're in a WOZ situation which nobody ever wants to be in again. If it's c), then the front of the line isn't much different than back.

So to me, the back of the line with no preorder is the place to be…I don't see how you can lose here. Front of the line can get screwed at least two ways, back of the line has no drawbacks really. Wait for them to actually produce something = smart.

#1442 4 years ago
Quoted from davewtf:

So did anyone who got a refund put another down payment in to the new PayPal account?

Yes...I was at Modern Pinball on Saturday night and Barry mentioned to me that there were resubmissions coming in.

#1443 4 years ago

I cannot keep up with this thread! I go to work then come home and it is pages beyond where i had left off. When will this end????? When will DP respond?

Rob

#1444 4 years ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

..For me ( and could be wrong)....but believe Andrew when he stated it was more of a commitment to a theme ( machine) regarding the refundable deposit, vs. needing this as kickstart money. No way $1500 from a maximum of 500 pre orders is going to build a company, and I don't view Heighway as a " boutique" ( could be wrong again).

My lord, if you can't build a company on $750k, no one has ever built one. $750k will build a 20 million dollar company in less tha 3 years and a $100 million company in less than 6. I've seen it first hand.

#1445 4 years ago
Quoted from gaspumprob:

When will DP respond?

Quoted from r6emperor:

Dear VIPs,

We want to reach out to you about the current situation involving the rumours on Pinside. We are aware of the thread and the worries over Dutch Pinball and The Big Lebowski project. It really hurts us that you are involved in this situation, which is something that should be settled in a professional, business manner. Unfortunately, we had no control over our customers being involved and we regret what is happening now. We want to assure you that we are very busy handling this situation privately and in the best possible way without discrediting anyone. As soon as we can share more information publicly, we will do so.

We know there has also been some recent speculation regarding the status of our very exciting pinball project and want to assure everyone that everything is under control without any problems. To that end, we have brought in Roger Sharpe, acclaimed licensing and marketing expert, to help us as we continue with our final approval process. Roger has extensive experience having worked on all of the Williams and Bally pinball licensing for over 12 1/2 years and his personal relationships with all of the movie studios ensures that we are right on target to bring everyone the best possible pinball product. Our apologies for any concerns that had been raised but know we are still on course and will continue to meet our deadlines and promises.

Please keep in mind that we are the guys that brought three awesome prototypes to Expo in October and to Modern Pinball NYC last weekend. We wouldn't been doing that if we had any bad intentions or wanted to defraud anyone. The only reason this is happening now is because of something that shouldn't be discussed publicly.

Again, we want to make an awesome game - and with this going on, we are even more motivated to do so.

We will answer all of your emails in the next couple of days/weeks, but we first need to deal with this situation and keep our focus on getting you your games.

Team Dutch Pinball

#1446 4 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

You act like the back of the line is this horrible thing, lol. There are only a few possible scenarios here:
a) DP goes bust, nobody gets a game
b) DP makes the games, but at a super slow rate
c) DP makes the games, but with high production
Well if it's a) you lose a ton of money. If it's b), you're in a WOZ situation which nobody ever wants to be in again. If it's c), then the front of the line isn't much different than back.
So to me, the back of the line with no preorder is the place to be…I don't see how you can lose here. Front of the line can get screwed at least two ways, back of the line has no drawbacks really. Wait for them to actually produce something = smart.

Didn't mean it as a bad thing. There was a post in this thread that DP should allow people to get full refunds, wait until the game is produced, and then allow guys back in their same original spot as a "good gesture" (and as I read it, it implied they got it for the same original price with all the goodies)

I don't agree with that. And I also have no issues with guys that want out...my problem is with guys wanting their cake and eat it too.

#1447 4 years ago

So the game I said will never be made roughly 18 months ago won't be made after all? I'm confused.

#1448 4 years ago

It will be interesting to see how long Roger Sharpe keeps his name attached to this project. He should be able to get to the bottom of the problems in pretty short order.

#1449 4 years ago
Quoted from burningman:

Rod...its pretty simple. From the beginning Phil said...no wait, DP said on its website so we know its true......anyone can ask for a refund prior to their game going into production. You are out.
Now if Barry said to request a refund and resubmit your payment to straighten out your account thats one thing. But if you ask for a refund because you can't take the heat and want to wait until there is more revealed or want to wait until you are "comfortable"....get in the back of the line.

BM I think the "panic" or I'd like to consider "extreme concern" is in relation to the insinuation of a lack of control over the funds and a lack of response to security of those funds - coupled w more dark insinuations of possible mishandling of the funds including kiting / robbing Peter for Paul.

I can't imagine being in Jaap or Barry's shoes and having to deal w this however I do believe when they say that they are sorry for having their customers dragged into this. I won't be surprised if they do offer spots to be held for those freaked out and hopefully receive their refunds. No matter how rogue Phil is and how much damage he's done they still have to take the responsibility of keeping the faith in dp for those that were in early and I think this a smart idea, but hey that's just like my opinion man.

Furthermore Sharpe is as sharp as a f'n razor, my magic 8 ball says he'll be bringing a lot more to this table than Licensing. The advice will be there should they ask for it.

Overall if someone were to offer me my money and say "no pinball for u - back of line", right now I'd take the money and you can call me what you want.

Tell me that they understand the shit we've been through in placing my money w them in the first place and welcome me back in line well that may bring my money back and lessen the bad taste in my mouth.

I hear your passion and support, I have it too but I do remember feeling lucky I didn't put my money in on MMR1 from Wayne Gillard so many years ago, and I really did want him to produce the pin then and succeed, but things happen for a reason....

Rod

#1450 4 years ago

Thank you for answering my question! That was a lot easier than reading 20 pages! All I can say is Roger Sharpe is a man of integrity and experience and will get the job done! Hearing this from DP pinball gives me hope that this still has a good chance of making it. Even if they have to get funding elsewhere if they build the games the true buyers will come back later and order the games. I wish them success in their endeavors and hope they do things right.

Rob

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