(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

4 years ago



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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Xerico
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There are 3821 posts in this topic. You are on page 27 of 77.
#1301 4 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

Why though? They are incorporated. The first thing that should have been done following that is applying for a EIN so that no one is doing anything under their personal SSN.
Just seems like sloppy business practices which has led to internal strife. Most of the issues brought up have little to no relevance to customers. And no reputable company is going to sling mud with a disgruntled business partner about private business matters.

Correct, should have been. But even after many requests from Phil that was not done. That is one of the major factors of this debacle.

11
#1302 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Why are you deciding to drawn the line at 3ish months from payment to delivery?

I'll buy a finished machine. No prototypes with unapproved shit. No "this music is just placeholder, we'll figure it out later, honest". No half assed coding. If you need 3 months (arbitrary number, but it's not a year for sure) to build it after taking money then I'm okay with that. Boutique stuff comes with some risk. But no more half assed shit for me.

That means TBL, while it looks incredible. Because it sucks that the game they sold me on is getting the art changed. That means WOOLY, because I don't buy games with spec music tracks. Definitely no Zidware vaporware. No Predator. No pre-ordering Alien without even seeing the damn machine, let alone the designer bailing (though I like that they're coding and shit already, they might meet my model if you ignore the pre-order until the machine is good to go).

Let me put it this way: no more crowd funding of development. You handle that shit by yourself, and sell it to us when it's done, with a pitch for your build plan, and we'll judge off that.

#1303 4 years ago

We're not going to get more from DP publicly. The Roger Sharpe thing is positive, and will help them navigate the licensing waters. They've lost a huge amount of working capital, but that can be covered by an outside investor.

In the end, they've shown a game that a lot of people are interested in buying. So if they can finish, they can pull this off.

17
#1304 4 years ago
Quoted from kidchrisso:

Man...over 700 ppl on pinside right now... is anybody working or are you on the shitter like me...

Two monitors: work on one, drama on the other.

definitely working.... ish.png
38
#1305 4 years ago

I'm a VIP. I've been following this thread since the beginning. My take:

Phil is facing mortality. He's dealing with serious health issues and in pain. He's overwhelmed. His business partners are taking risks he can't tolerate, and he wants out badly. They resist cooperating because they want to focus on building games, and Phil is still a business partner (but not an employee). They hope they can get him to accept this role because he's the simplest way to deal with U.S. distribution. Things drag on, taxes loom, Phil is facing more treatment--he's losing it. Finally, all his fears and anger spill out on Pinside.

Mistakes have been made. There's still hope this can get sorted out. I don't think there are any bad guys--just people dealing with real human problems. Barry is correct--none of this should have been handled in public. But Phil is also correct--they're asking too much of him right now. Let's step back and breathe for a while.

#1306 4 years ago
Quoted from AloneMordakai:

Two monitors: work on one, drama on the other.

definitely working.... ish.png 721 KB

Wow, you have fantastic eyesight.. You need a new monitor or graphics card, for sure!

#1307 4 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

Why though? They are incorporated. The first thing that should have been done following that is applying for a EIN so that no one is doing anything under their personal SSN.

Since everybody else is tossing about theories and conjecture, I'll join in. Makes the work day go faster.

- There's no evidence out there that Dutch Pinball US (or DP USA) or anything remotely similar to that exists as a legal entity. I think it's just a d/b/a of the parent Dutch company (which is a privately held, limited liability entity with 3 partners).
- Maybe that's why it's difficult/impossible to just "dissolve" the USA entity - it doesn't exist as a standalone company. Is simply a USA marketing name to attach a paypal account to.
- One of Phil's jobs, since he has a US SSN, was to set up the US paypal account.
- As the end of the tax year approaches, Phil freaks out about the inevitable Form 1099 that he is going to be receiving in the mail with his SSN attached to it. (for you non-USA folks, that the snitch report that Paypal will send to the IRS to make sure you don't cheat on your taxes)

If the accounting systems are really messed up, I guess this would tend to freak me out also. International tax laws are messy - that's probably why they just went with opening the account with a SSN instead of a tax ID #. More shortcuts that complicate matters.

All just unfounded speculation in my head, but it did help me to kill 10 minutes at work.

16
#1308 4 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

Mistakes have been made. There's still hope this can get sorted out. I don't think there are any bad guys--just people dealing with real human problems.

I'm sorry. You sound far too reasonable to be posting on Pinside.

#1309 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Dutch Pinball has called in The Wolf!

Naw son. They called in someone better.

#1310 4 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

co-incidentally? Are you sure? Sounded like a "Get his name out there... QUICK" type of thing so he can be seen as a white hat.

Nice conspiracy theory but, like some/most conspiracy theories, completely untrue. I just happened to speak to Roger Sharpe last week before any of this blew up. The idea that DP would ask anyone me or anyone else to write about Roger Sharpe (here: http://pavlovpinball.com/?p=1681) before taking him on is flattering but ludicrous....

#1311 4 years ago
Quoted from brundaged:

Mistakes have been made. There's still hope this can get sorted out. I don't think there are any bad guys--just people dealing with real human problems. Barry is correct--none of this should have been handled in public. But Phil is also correct--they're asking too much of him right now. Let's step back and breathe for a while.

Yep..good post, a lot of unnecessary publicity for a personal or personnel problem. I'm confident it will get sorted.

#1312 4 years ago
Quoted from aeonblack:

Yeah, that's not gonna cut it for me. I'm out. I really wanted to hold in there, and that non-answer isn't enough for me.

Let's look at it this way: this is a complex situation. A lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. I am sure at this point, if the lawyers weren't engaged, they are now, and that what they can say about ongoing mediation/litigation is extremely limited.

What they have said is that they are bringing on the unquestionable king of licensing, and if his involvement means anything, it means the project has an experienced, level-headed steward with lots of ties to Hollywood.

So, I'm still in. What these guys are doing is difficult. But, the quality of the prototype, in terms of art, tech, design, shows that this group clearly has some talent, and if they wanted to defraud investors, they didn't have to give us working prototypes to play.

Now, if Roger quits on these guys, THEN I may have to reconsider.

#1313 4 years ago
Quoted from futurepinhead:

Has anybody started a Cliff notes version of this thread for people who were out of town all weekend???

http://deadpixelcult.com/2014/12/15/new-shit-has-come-to-light-and-shit-man-is-the-big-lebowski-pinball-game-in-trouble/

#1314 4 years ago

1312 posts. This thread is giving the Lionman thread a run for it's money..

#1315 4 years ago

What a roller coaster.

I am encouraged by the move to bring Roger onboard.

I am still concerned about my money being safe and have asked about that via email. Not sure what to do now other than sit and wait.

I canceled my paypal dispute without realizing that I couldnt reopen one on that transaction. Stupid, but here I am. Gulp.

#1317 4 years ago

Guy was asking for cliffnotes. Gave cliffnotes.

#1318 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

What a roller coaster.

I am encouraged by the move to bring Roger onboard.

I am still concerned about my money being safe and have asked about that via email. Not sure what to do now other than sit and wait.

I canceled my paypal dispute without realizing that I couldnt reopen one on that transaction. Stupid, but here I am. Gulp.

If I was you and not me I would stay in for a great game. Me I cant take this shit. I freak out. I know this now. I just cant pre order. But if you can this is a great game to be in on. I will get one probably six months after you and pay more and it wont have the chrome I wanted. But I will sleep at night and not stress over every stupid piece of news.

#1319 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

If I was you and not me I would stay in for a great game. Me I cant take this shit. I freak out. I know this now. I just cant pre order. But if you can this is a great game to be in on. I will get one probably six months after you and pay more and it wont have the chrome I wanted. But I will sleep at night and not stress over every stupid piece of news.

Yeah I hear you.

If I actually get the game you are more than welcome to come play it. Hopefully everyone will be laughing about this by then.

#1320 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

Guy was asking for cliffnotes. Gave cliffnotes.

I was talking to whoever decided summarizing a thread on Pinside for facebook consumption. I think most of us think a good chunk of this is way into "over sharing" category.. let alone repackaging it and making it even more public.

If that was you, then my question still stands.

#1321 4 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

While we've only heard one side to this story, the fact that barry and Jaap aren't coming on here to defend themselves implies guilt does it not? If these were lies, wouldn't they want to defend themselves?

Oh sure, because we all know that public threads on Pinside are the best place to settle differences.

34
#1322 4 years ago

IMHO the bottom line is whatever could have been done differently is done now. Phil has cancer, he's in a jammed spot, and he's just doing what he can to get out. It's not about good guys and bad guys. We don't need to choose sides here, it's cool to want the game to be built and for the guy to take care of his health.

Japp and Barry have to divest themselves of Phil. It's what he wants, but it's also what Dutch Pinball needs. No one is going to feel comfortable until that's settled. Simple or complicated figure that shit out, and make it a priority. We don't need to know the tax details, not our problem, been enough over sharing. Just make sure you do it right and can reassure everyone.

So DP, get Roger on Universal, we all know he can handle that shit. Listen to him if he tells you to stop taking world tours with unapproved machines ffs. And get Phil out of there.

Then he can focus on trying to beat a bitch of a disease, and you can focus on trying to build a bad ass bitch of a game. This is drama, but no one wants it to be the end of anything.

#1323 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

IMHO the bottom line is whatever could have been done differently is done now. Phil has cancer, he's in a jammed spot, and he's just doing what he can to get out. It's not about good guys and bad guys. We don't need to choose sides here, it's cool to want the game to be built and for the guy to take care of his health.
Japp and Barry have to divest themselves of Phil. It's what he wants, but it's also what Dutch Pinball needs. No one is going to feel comfortable until that's settled. Simple or complicated figure that shit out, and make it a priority. We don't need to know the tax details, not our problem, been enough over sharing. Just make sure you do it right and can reassure everyone.
So DP, get Roger on Universal, we all know he can handle that shit. Listen to him if he tells you to stop taking world tours with unapproved machines ffs. And get Phil out of there.
Then he can focus on trying to beat a bitch of a disease, and you can focus on trying to build a bad ass bitch of a game. This is drama, but no one wants it to be the end of anything.

All of this PLUS that damn aurich guy needs to get those shadow translite sets out before Xmas...

#1324 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

IMHO the bottom line is whatever could have been done differently is done now. Phil has cancer, he's in a jammed spot, and he's just doing what he can to get out. It's not about good guys and bad guys. We don't need to choose sides here, it's cool to want the game to be built and for the guy to take care of his health.
Japp and Barry have to divest themselves of Phil. It's what he wants, but it's also what Dutch Pinball needs. No one is going to feel comfortable until that's settled. Simple or complicated figure that shit out, and make it a priority. We don't need to know the tax details, not our problem, been enough over sharing. Just make sure you do it right and can reassure everyone.
So DP, get Roger on Universal, we all know he can handle that shit. Listen to him if he tells you to stop taking world tours with unapproved machines ffs. And get Phil out of there.
Then he can focus on trying to beat a bitch of a disease, and you can focus on trying to build a bad ass bitch of a game. This is drama, but no one wants it to be the end of anything.

Good post. They should have done all that six weeks ago too.

#1325 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

All of this PLUS that damn aurich guy needs to get those Shadow translite sets out before Xmas...

Haha, I'm trying!!! Dunno if you saw my update, but printer accidentally printed the speaker panels mirrored, text is backwards, making them pretty useless.

I'm packing Star Trek right now, just keep getting distracted by emails, and then of course I have to check Pinside ... Ffffff, forget being addicted to pre-orders, how do I stay off this website???!!

#1326 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

IMHO the bottom line is whatever could have been done differently is done now. Phil has cancer, he's in a jammed spot, and he's just doing what he can to get out. It's not about good guys and bad guys. We don't need to choose sides here, it's cool to want the game to be built and for the guy to take care of his health.
Japp and Barry have to divest themselves of Phil. It's what he wants, but it's also what Dutch Pinball needs. No one is going to feel comfortable until that's settled. Simple or complicated figure that shit out, and make it a priority. We don't need to know the tax details, not our problem, been enough over sharing. Just make sure you do it right and can reassure everyone.
So DP, get Roger on Universal, we all know he can handle that shit. Listen to him if he tells you to stop taking world tours with unapproved machines ffs. And get Phil out of there.
Then he can focus on trying to beat a bitch of a disease, and you can focus on trying to build a bad ass bitch of a game. This is drama, but no one wants it to be the end of anything.

Amen! Well said.

#1327 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I was talking to whoever decided summarizing a thread on Pinside for facebook consumption. I think most of us think a good chunk of this is way into "over sharing" category.. let alone repackaging it and making it even more public.
If that was you, then my question still stands.

I like how you think this will all go away if no one talks about it. It's out there, it's news.

#1328 4 years ago

From DP:
We want to reach out to you about the current situation involving the rumours on Pinside. We are aware of the thread and the worries over Dutch Pinball and The Big Lebowski project. It really hurts us that you are involved in this situation, which is something that should be settled in a professional, business manner. Unfortunately, we had no control over our customers being involved and we regret what is happening now. We want to assure you that we are very busy handling this situation privately and in the best possible way without discrediting anyone. As soon as we can share more information publicly, we will do so.

We know there has also been some recent speculation regarding the status of our very exciting pinball project and want to assure everyone that everything is under control without any problems. To that end, we have brought in Roger Sharpe, acclaimed licensing and marketing expert, to help us as we continue with our final approval process. Roger has extensive experience having worked on all of the Williams and Bally pinball licensing for over 12 1/2 years and his personal relationships with all of the movie studios ensures that we are right on target to bring everyone the best possible pinball product. Our apologies for any concerns that had been raised but know we are still on course and will continue to meet our deadlines and promises.

Please keep in mind that we are the guys that brought three awesome prototypes to Expo in October and to Modern Pinball NYC last weekend. We wouldn't been doing that if we had any bad intentions or wanted to defraud anyone. The only reason this is happening now is because of something that shouldn't be discussed publicly.

Again, we want to make an awesome game - and with this going on, we are even more motivated to do so.

We will answer all of your emails in the next couple of days/weeks, but we first need to deal with this situation and keep our focus on getting you your games.

#1329 4 years ago

Not sure how much more they can do or say to make everyone happy. That's good enough for me for now. Will be nice to hear the wrap up after Roger weighs in and the business stuff is taken care of, but that will take time.

#1330 4 years ago

Edit: worth reposting..

-2
#1331 4 years ago

Accounting and infighting aside, as a VIP I would be equally concerned about the wreckless disregard for licensing do's and dont's on DP's part. Based on Phil's comments, it seems the studio was already losing patience with DP long ago. Now they took an unapproved game to New York for public display AND allowed it to be filmed and photographed. Can't wait to hear what the studio's reaction to that will be. Good luck Roger ... I hope he inderstands completely what he is attaching his respected name to.

#1332 4 years ago

Is it wrong that im secretly hoping to have my place in line bumped up a bit?

#1333 4 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

- There's no evidence out there that Dutch Pinball US (or DP USA) or anything remotely similar to that exists as a legal entity. I think it's just a d/b/a of the parent Dutch company (which is a privately held, limited liability entity with 3 partners).

Everyone keeps saying "dissolve the corporation....run the corporation....1/3 of the corporation" but why are there no incorporation documents registered?

#1334 4 years ago
Quoted from xbloodgreenx:

I like how you think this will all go away if no one talks about it. It's out there, it's news.

That's not what I am saying; we all know it's here. Every VIP customer knows it's here. There is a lot here for people to care about (the meat), and there's a lot of BS as well, and a lot of stuff that should have been kept between business partners, and there's extra personal stuff like cancer and all that. I don't see how taking a few juicy excepts onto a page, linking back to this thread, and posting it to Facebook has value.

I just realized this deadpixel whatever has 23 likes, so maybe not as big a deal.

#1335 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Yup just like the post two pages back.

No, this letter has much different content. I have both. I think it addresses things as much as they are able at the moment. Enough for the people with dogs in the fight, at least for me.

The dogless won't be satisfied, that isn't why they are participating...

#1336 4 years ago

Where do BOP 2.0 customers stand in this mess??

#1337 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Edit: worth reposting..

It wasn't a re-post. Read it. It just came out a few minutes ago.

#1338 4 years ago

Dang its similar but different. Whats the difference besides wording?
I dont get the multiple versions of the same statement??

#1339 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

Is it wrong that im secretly hoping to have my place in line bumped up a bit?

Nope, that's what the Predator debacle is making me hope!

#1340 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

Is it wrong that im secretly hoping to have my place in line bumped up a bit?

Hell no!

#1341 4 years ago
Quoted from RealityCheck:

Where do BOP 2.0 customers stand in this mess??

I've been told the computers have arrived, the pre-flashed hard drives are on the way, and they'll be assembled soon...and I'm likely to have it first week of Jan. If this happens as planned, I think I'll chill out a bit.

#1342 4 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

Is it wrong that im secretly hoping to have my place in line bumped up a bit?

+1 to that!
If people bail at the rumour or the slightest hiccup then more fool them. DP should recognise it's loyal pre-orderers!

People are bailing after hearing only one side, I am sorry of what Phil describes, but I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, scaremongering, people jumping on the bandwagon crying SCAM!

I've seen this in WOZ, PREADATOR & now TBL.
I'm pretty confident that most of what DP has put in the game will get approval. Change the artwork a little and the code to what UNIVERSAL is happy with and as with an earlier post the content we want will be put in through "updates" not done by DP obviously

#1343 4 years ago

LIONMAN!

image-208.jpg
#1344 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

why are there no incorporation documents registered?

Someone claimed that Dutch Pinball USA is a d/b/a and not a corp. I don't know it that's true but it would certainly make more sense than "I incorporated and then used my personal social security number on all the accounts" theory.

#1345 4 years ago

Okay i am on page 15 of this thread, should i continue to read the next 12 pages as not to miss any information (drama). Or since I am not a stakeholder just go back to my normal daily trolling.

Thanks
Mike

#1346 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Dang its similar but different. Whats the difference besides wording?
I dont get the multiple versions of the same statement??

They added Roger Sharpe to the mix to address the licensing issue, which for all practical purposes is the only deal killer issue they are dealing with, reduced cash flow from refunds notwithstanding.

Other than that, they are treating it like the legal matter that it is - privately.

#1347 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Everyone keeps saying "dissolve the corporation....run the corporation....1/3 of the corporation" but why are there no incorporation documents registered?

I've been trying to find that myself.. but am no expert on corporate research Was hoping Phil or someone else would chime in with the answer when I asked where they are incorporated. I haven't found any traces of LLCs or Corps in Illinois's online system or Delaware.

#1348 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I've been told the computers have arrived, the pre-flashed hard drives are on the way, and they'll be assembled soon...and I'm likely to have it first week of Jan. If this happens as planned, I think I'll chill out a bit.

Scott mentioned the drives will be getting imaged in the next week and a half in the BoP2.0 thread

Quoted from TheNoTrashCougar:Hey Guys,
No need to worry about the Bride kits. All parts are accounted for and the imaging of the drives for the US kits will be done during the next week and a half.
Please reach out to me if you have any questions.
Thanks guys,
--Scott

#1349 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Everyone keeps saying "dissolve the corporation....run the corporation....1/3 of the corporation" but why are there no incorporation documents registered?

Wyoming?

https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=141190084199124060157201028180106126092020171249

#1350 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

People are bailing after hearing only one side, I am sorry of what Phil describes, but I think this whole thing has been blown out of proportion, scaremongering, people jumping on the bandwagon crying SCAM!

I could care less about the accusations. That is not why I want my money back. I want my money back because it apparently is being held by a partner of DP that wants nothing to do with the company. He has made it clear he wants to liquidate the account. There isn't going to be enough money to go around once you subtract out all the transaction fees from moving this money around.

If he is going to empty the bag I want the money, and not the empty bag.

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