(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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-22
#1151 5 years ago

Phil i founded u an very wise man.. It shows as u told us at the pinball expo that u are an academic teacher, teaching students in the university. How to do marketing., expo was an success! I remember u swiping a lot of cc's on ur iphone, making happy buyers.

But tell me, if the accusations are true u make, why didnt you have seeked professional guidance in the form of an attorney for example and fight off the problems u are dealing with your so called friends barry and jaap?

Im sorry for the serious illness which u are undergoing and fighting to defeat i really do, ur action feels to me like an business suicidal course ur taking, hence the f bombs at the seminar of pinball expo gaved me the feeling that u simply dont care what happens do you?

And if you lose the battle, do u really wanna leave this world knowing that u slaughtered off an entire pinball company single handed by ur accusations on your friends,. Think twice wise friend, im for sure u do have regrets upon ur actions around here.. We all know that

#1152 5 years ago

If i have to bury my mother i probeble will not give sign of life within 48 hours. Highly likely i will be a wreck for at least a month. And you all expect him to react instantly?

And in this case he had 48 hours, from saterdaynight! In the middle of the night, on the day he buried his mother. In the weekend.

They already send out an email, so they have done their first respons.

Give them some time to come with a good, proffesional statement.

48 hours with all this mess and also in the weekend middle of the night is hardly any time.

If they respond this week, its soon enough. Takes some time too talking with their lawyers.

#1153 5 years ago
Quoted from DutchTommy:

Phil i founded u an very wise man.. It shows as u told us at the pinball expo that u are an academic teacher, teaching students in the university. How to do marketing.,
And if the accusations are true u make, why didnt you have seeked professional guidance in the form of an attorney for example and fight off the problems u are dealing with your so called friends barry and jaap?
Im sorry for the serious illness which u are undergoing and fighting to defeat i really do, ur action feels to me like an suicidal course ur taking, hence the f bombs at the seminar of pinball expo gaved me the feeling that u simply dont care what happens do you?
And if you lose the battle, do u really wanna leave this world knowing that u slaughtered off an entire pinball company single handed by ur accusations on your friends,. Think twice wise friend, im for sure u do have regrets upon ur actions around here.. We all know that

Are you serious dude? Suicidal? Let's keep his illness out of this beyond "I hope you beat it and get better soon."

#1154 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Oh, I hope you didn't take that as a jab at you. Not how it was intended at all. I'd just like to hear the other side of this fiasco.

Had a reliable third party just say the episode is on tonight

#1155 5 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

If i have to bury my mother i probeble will not give sign of life within 48 hours. Highly likele i will be a wreck for at least a month. And you all expect him to react instantly?
And in this case he had 48 hours, from saterdaynight! In the middle of the night, on the day he buried his mother. In the weekend.
They already send out an email, so they have done their first respons.
Give them some time to come with a good, proffesional statement.
48 hours with all this mess and also in the weekend middle of the night is hardly any time.
If they respond this week, its soon enough. Takes some time too talking with their lawyers.

There's more than one other leader here. I would be more accepting of this if Barry wasn't in the picture. He should be commenting here and at the very least offering up a timeframe for everything to be addressed.

39
#1156 5 years ago

I used to PLAY pinball, now I am too busy reading this thread

#1157 5 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

He should be commenting here and at the very least offering up a timeframe for everything to be addressed.

The only obligation that Barry has communication-wise is to the people who have made deposits to DP. That should only be handled by email communication to those people, or telephone calls. Not a post on a pinball website. If they want to make a blanket statement to the pinball community fine, but they only owe an explanation to the concerned current customers, not possible future customers. The possible future customers will make their decisions after the current customers report back here after hearing from DP.

-2
#1158 5 years ago

Why should he do that. because you say so?

Get real man. His mother died and an exemployer rages on that same night, localy in the middle of the night. And all you cry babies demand an instant respons.

If dp usa was my friend, and i just buried my mother and he did that to me the same night?

Just awefull.... Really is. And some of you defend this guy.

Pathetic!

#1159 5 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

Are you serious dude? Suicidal? Let's keep his illness out of this beyond "I hope you beat it and get better soon."

The guy wrote "business suicidal" man, get some reading glasses

Edit: oh wait, I see he's changed it after the fact..

#1160 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Doesn't sound like that's the issue here. Phil didn't want to be bought out, he was trying to give everything away. It's fine if you want to be careful about liabilities etc, but you don't leave someone who's bailed in charge of a company bank account if that's the kind of approach you have.

But if your company has liabilities... as a partner he shares in those liabilities. He can't just drop the mic and walk away from that. Another new partner would have to assume those liabilities and future. Kind of puts a damper on just handing it over to someone. He can say he doesn't demand any compensation, but his ownership of the liability must be assumed somewhere.

but so much depends on how the company is formed, who has what roles, etc. I don't know where DP USA is formed. The website lists it as Dutch Pinball USA Inc - claiming a corporation and not a LLC, etc.

This is where it's complicated and it's not just a matter of 'let me go'. But its extremely difficult to evaluate when we don't know the formation of the organization

-6
#1161 5 years ago

Did Barry's mom die, too?

#1162 5 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

The only obligation that Barry has communication-wise is to the people who have made deposits to DP. That should only be handled by email communication to those people, or telephone calls. Not a post on a pinball website. If they want to make a blanket statement to the pinball community fine, but they only owe an explanation to the concerned current customers, not possible future customers. The possible future customers will make their decisions after the current customers report back here after hearing from DP.

Fair enough, that would be fine too.

#1163 5 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I used to PLAY pinball, now I am too busy reading this thread

lol no shit, I can't seem to turn away from it. And I really should at this point, there's nothing more to be gained. I guess it's because I still hope something will work out, I want to see the game happen.

I'm going to go pack Star Trek orders instead!

#1164 5 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Did Barry's mom die, too?

Oh man, you are hilarious...

-1
#1165 5 years ago

1.jpg
#1166 5 years ago

This whole soap is a slap in the face in general. 3 guys presenting themselves as a group of enthusiastic friends, building a great game for all to love. Wouldn’t we all want to be part of that? It may have started that way but since expo apparently this was already long gone. But still they managed to keep up appearances. I wonder how Phil could have done the presentation at Expo, with his heart and soul while all this trouble was there in his mind.
I was in way before Expo, and just felt that my decision to go in pre-order was a great decision and it lasted through DPO as well.
Now I have a bad feeling up to my stomach and Barry nor any other DP member is trying to take that away. (Jaap, you are excused, my sincere condolences).
I am not bailing out just yet but clarity has to be given asap as the next payment is due in two weeks from now. I don’t expect nor want DP to reply on Pinside as this has now became a television soap for everyone to enjoy, especially for those who didn’t pre-order.

To Phil,
I had never expected this from such an experienced (business/marketing) specialist with high level communication skills  Please settle and repair this behind the scenes as much as possible and save whatever there is left to save.
And get well soon!

-1
#1167 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

It might be the terms? Or it might be the fact that you shot so many holes in the ship before abandoning it

Oh hey I found your pic online
Blind.jpg

You need to get off DP's nuts, seriously.

#1168 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

lol no shit, I can't seem to turn away from it. And I really should at this point, there's nothing more to be gained. I guess it's because I still hope something will work out, I want to see the game happen.

I'm very close to draining this myself.. nothing good is going to come out of this thread / Barry & Jaap won't be responding to all this crap point by point here.. they'll send out a letter to the customers. But it is hard to turn away.. Drain would fix that.

However, what keeps me from doing it so far is that I do have $4500, in theory, in the paypal account in question and the threat of RobT posting a "head in the sand".gif if he somehow found out i drained it.

#1169 5 years ago

I don't understand the personal liability talk. The company is incorporated (or at least being portrayed that way). I'm assuming they filled out that paperwork correctly and show what percent ownership each member has. Payments were made to that corporation.

Why would anyone be personally liable for that money? We don't take someone's personal assets away if the corporation they partially own fails (yes there are exceptions to that rule). And why would one partner be liable for the corporation's liabilities and the other two not?

43
#1170 5 years ago

Pinside needs a mushroom cloud icon for threads like this...the little burning flame just doesn't cut it.

#1171 5 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Did Barry's mom die, too?

Now that made me laugh.

It depends on how u juggle business / personal.

Weird Al for example got the call that both his parents died in a freak home accident, then went on stage and performed flawless. That's what I call big brass business balls.

Others I've seen can't get back up for some time....

-Rod

#1172 5 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

I don't understand the personal liability talk. The company is incorporated (or at least being portrayed that way). I'm assuming they filled out that paperwork correctly and show what percent ownership each member has. Payments were made to that corporation.

Why would anyone be personally liable for that money? We don't take someone's personal assets away if the corporation they partially own fails (yes there are exceptions to that rule). And why would one partner be liable for the corporation's liabilities and the other two not?

I agree, with the exception that certainly cases of illegal activity things can spill over from a corporation to the corporate officers involved (or even employees). In most cases your personal wealth would not be impacted, unless it was created via fraudulent activities (e.g. while an extreme case look at Bernie Madoff and those involved in it with him, or who are now seeing their assets seized that were a direct result of that fraud).

-1
#1173 5 years ago
Quoted from MinusWorlds:

Oh hey I found your pic online

You need to get off DP's nuts, seriously.

Blind.jpg 7 KB

That's all some people here can do: throw personal punches instead of debating. I guess the picture of that kid is actually you... in age.

#1174 5 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

Why would anyone be personally liable for that money?

If you read through the diatribe, it appears the partners used their personal tax identification numbers and accounts to handle corporate funds. Phil also communicates with the public without defining the capacity in which he is speaking.. ie: as an individual or the CEO of Dutch Pinball USA. Both of these are grounds for piercing the corporate veil which means they can breach the protections normally afforded by incorporation. It's one of the reasons I and many others have recommended that Phil STFU, retain counsel and handle this professionally. He's concerned about his wife and children but is so emotionally invested in whether TBL gets made that he's willing to forego those protections in order to have his dispute settled here.. The Pinside Court. Unfortunately, he runs the risk of discovering that "DP" is also a verb.

#1175 5 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

I don't understand the personal liability talk. The company is incorporated (or at least being portrayed that way). I'm assuming they filled out that paperwork correctly and show what percent ownership each member has. Payments were made to that corporation.
Why would anyone be personally liable for that money? We don't take someone's personal assets away if the corporation they partially own fails (yes there are exceptions to that rule). And why would one partner be liable for the corporation's liabilities and the other two not?

BECAUSE THE PAYPAL ACCOUNT IS UNDER PHIL'S PERSONAL SSN.

Wasn't that covered in Post#1?!?!?!?!

Jeebus people.

#1176 5 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

jayhawkai said:
Did Barry's mom die, too?

Now that made me laugh.

Then you have a real sick sense of humor....

#1177 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Then you have a real sick sense of humor....

Yeah, I'm probably going to hell too, but I think jayhawk was referring to the fact that Barry's still available no?

-Rod

#1178 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

That's all some people here can do: throw personal punches instead of debating. I guess the picture of that kid is actually you... in age.

Uh no, Phil has posted plenty of screenshots, pics and evidence to back his claims. Some people just can't get past the bowling alley under the PF to come to their senses. Seriously man you need a wake up call. Simply astounding.

#1179 5 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

Why would anyone be personally liable for that money? We don't take someone's personal assets away if the corporation they partially own fails (yes there are exceptions to that rule). And why would one partner be liable for the corporation's liabilities and the other two not?

Your point about the exceptions is the important point. There are exceptions to the limited liability of a corporation when there is fraud or illegal activity that would harm the company... or people improperly using corp assets. Both of which are part of the claims going on here.

I think what you see here at the core is a difference in opinion on what is considered risky behavior or not.. the two dutch owners think no... phil thought yes. The corporation wouldn't shield them individually necessarily and hence the fear.

#1180 5 years ago

Joint and several liability. Piercing the corp veil could easily be a possibility here depending on how funds have been used and not following all the corp formalities

Always use LLC as better asset protection entity and flexibility for tax purposes. Maybe they filed as S corp. anyhow not the best option.

I wouldn't want to be on that DP USA hook either.

#1181 5 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

Why would anyone be personally liable for that money? We don't take someone's personal assets away if the corporation they partially own fails (yes there are exceptions to that rule). And why would one partner be liable for the corporation's liabilities and the other two not?

Actually that is exactly what it means to be an owner of a corporation. If this was a LLC instead, that would mean that the partners are protected from using their personal assets to pay for the company liabilities.
They are all liable for 1/3 of the liabilities of the company. However, anything can be agreed upon. If the parties agree that the 2 remaining members will assume all the liabilities of the 3rd member, then that is okay. But right now, it seems that Phil is a 33.3% SH. that means he is entitled to 1/3 of the assets, liabilities, and equity of the company. If he is unable to pay those liabilities either with the assets or the equity he has in the company, he is personably liable.

#1182 5 years ago

People keep saying they hope the game gets built, but what is "the game" now? Even if a game did get built, nobody knows what it would look or sound like. The game is not finalized. The licensing is not approved.

I and everybody else was lead to believe that the glorious game DP was peddling at the Chicago Expo was finished, except for code. Now I find out that this is not true, which is hugely disappointing. While we are all hoping it still gets built, I am wondering what the final game would even LOOK like.

When I watched the recent video of TBL right before this all went down, I heard all of these songs playing. I thought to myself, How in the hell can they afford to use all of these songs? It is very expensive to license songs. Now it appears that they were never licensed.

This is just terrible, all around. TBL was the game that was supposed to elevate pinball, and now it has done the opposite.

#1183 5 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Actually that is exactly what it means to be an owner of a corporation. If this was a LLC instead, that would mean that the partners are protected from using their personal assets to pay for the company liabilities.
They are all liable for 1/3 of the liabilities of the company. However, anything can be agreed upon. If the parties agree that the 2 remaining members will assume all the liabilities of the 3rd member, then that is okay. But right now, it seems that Phil is a 33.3% SH. that means he is entitled to 1/3 of the assets, liabilities, and equity of the company. If he is unable to pay those liabilities either with the assets or the equity he has in the company, he is personably liable.

This is not correct

When I get some time I will clarify how it works and how it could easily be resolved.

#1184 5 years ago
Quoted from leisure:

Was anyone ever able to find a way to seek a refund for older payments instead of getting the auto "its been 45 days" blah blah blah stuff?

The best I was able to do was select "I want to report a transaction that I didn't authorize or was transacted in error" option instead of "I have a problem with an item I purchased". That opens a ticket that doesn't get auto-closed by PayPal. However, it doesn't seem to do much good because the ticket has been sitting with the status of: "Awaiting other party's response" since this all started.

Maybe if enough people file a claim like this against "Dutch Pinball USA, Inc." PayPal will get off their ass and do something, but that is most certainly just wishful thinking.

#1185 5 years ago
Quoted from edmorex:

The best I was able to do was select "I want to report a transaction that I didn't authorize or was transacted in error" option instead of "I have a problem with an item I purchased". That opens a ticket that doesn't get auto-closed by PayPal. However, it doesn't seem to do much good because the ticket has been sitting with the status of: "Awaiting other party's response" since this all started.
Maybe if enough people file a claim like this against "Dutch Pinball USA, Inc." PayPal will get off their ass and do something, but that is most certainly just wishful thinking.

I preordered in two deposits - one for 4k and one for 4.5k, so I have two open claims against them as well.

#1186 5 years ago

I tried to leave... I really did. But I honestly cannot get enough of this thread.
fI2CHcB.gif

#1187 5 years ago

When is the next Stern released?

#1188 5 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Now that made me laugh.

It depends on how u juggle business / personal.

Not the intent. Death in the family could certainly explain one partner's silence, but what about Barry's? Some seem to think that nothing is fucked here. IMO, the plane ran out of fuel six weeks ago, and crashed into the mountain Saturday. Public statements addressing the very real and significant concerns buyers have over the BOP delays, TBL licensing, and cash burn (to put it delicately) are long overdue.

#1189 5 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

People keep saying they hope the game gets built, but what is "the game" now? Even if a game did get built, nobody knows what it would look or sound like. The game is not finalized. The licensing is not approved.
I and everybody else was lead to believe that the glorious game DP was peddling at the Chicago Expo was finished, except for code. Now I find out that this is not true, which is hugely disappointing. While we are all hoping it still gets built, I am wondering what the final game would even LOOK like.
When I watched the recent video of TBL right before this all went down, I heard all of these songs playing. I thought to myself, How in the hell can they afford to use all of these songs? It is very expensive to license songs. Now it appears that they were never licensed.
This is just terrible, all around. TBL was the game that was supposed to elevate pinball, and now it has done the opposite.

The licensing for the movie IS approved. They licensed the movie, but every call out or sound bite or picture on cabinet or playfield needs to be approved separately before they can actually use it in production. Most of the music IS approved, as I understand it. Some parts of the playfield must still receive approval. The Kahlua drink did not get approved, so this must be removed, as does the gun and weed on the playfield and the Time Magazine that is in there somewhere.

So: the game will turn out mostly like the prototype. John Goodmans call outs seem to need special approval, so these need extra work but aren't disapproved yet. They are simply waiting approval.

#1190 5 years ago
Quoted from pinballslave:

Now you've got your refund, Phil can sit easy What about all the others??

I know you were joking with my post, but I don't know if you realize that Phil is also fighting cancer. I honestly care about his health and well being.

My hope is that everyone that wants a refund gets one!

#1191 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

as does the gun and weed on the playfield

I must have missed this when first mentioned in the thread (imagine that). Is this due the Goodman's objections or something else?

#1192 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

sorry, I forgot to add, and DP USA will not pay for Bride.
DP BV (the Dutch one) shouldn't pay for Bride either.
Bride was made under Dutch Pinball, NOT Dutch Pinball BV. Dutch Pinball is a subsidiary of Insert Media, Barry's company.
I mention that only for those of you who say it's all the same company, so the same money. No, these are not.

Phil,

I think many appreciate your transparency. I would suggest, as you've stated, this looks to be somewhat of a mess. For your own protection you should not be airing all of these issue here. It could come back to bite you in the ass later. Regardless of what's going on kudos for putting the money back in people's hands so they can make a decision after this mess is sorted out.

Best of luck to you with your health issues.

#1193 5 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Not the intent. Death in the family could certainly explain one partner's silence, but what about Barry's? Some seem to think that nothing is fucked here. IMO, the plane ran out of fuel six weeks ago, and crashed into the mountain Saturday. Public statements addressing the very real and significant concerns buyers have over the BOP delays, TBL licensing, and cash burn (to put it delicately) are long overdue.

I read your post as straight out sarcasm, my bad and apologies to those offended by my lol!

-Rod

#1194 5 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

I must have missed this when first mentioned in the thread (imagine that). Is this due the Goodman's objections or something else?

I believe this was due to Universal.

#1195 5 years ago
Quoted from jazzmaster:

I must have missed this when first mentioned in the thread (imagine that). Is this due the Goodman's objections or something else?

Universal stated that John Goodman can't be displayed "next to" a fire arm, that's something Mr. Goodman has demanded. The weed is something Universal asked for.

#1196 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Universal stated that John Goodman can't be displayed "next to" a fire arm, that's something Mr. Goodman has demanded. The weed is something Universal asked for.

So if they swap the gun and the toilet position, everything is fine?

#1197 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

This is not correct
When I get some time I will clarify how it works and how it could easily be resolved.

You are right if you are only talking about a C-Corp. S-Corps and LLCs protect personal assets. Assuming DP is one of a S-Corp or LLC, their personal assets are protected. A C-Corp is not a pass-through like the others and thus personal assets are fair game.

#1198 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

The licensing for the movie IS approved. They licensed the movie, but every call out or sound bite or picture on cabinet or playfield needs to be approved separately before they can actually use it in production. Most of the music IS approved, as I understand it. Some parts of the playfield must still receive approval. The Kahlua drink did not get approved, so this must be removed, as does the gun and weed on the playfield and the Time Magazine that is in there somewhere.

So: the game will turn out mostly like the prototype. John Goodmans call outs seem to need special approval, so these need extra work but aren't disapproved yet. They are simply waiting approval.

That's exacty what i know.
Not mutch to worry here because it are prototypes and not retail produced games.

#1199 5 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

Ofcourse he hasnt, he's dutch and we never follow the rules..

How is that working out for the 3 founders of Pirate Bay?

#1200 5 years ago

Um, did I read Phil's post correctly, because no one seems to have commented on this fascinating nugget:

BoPv2 is an InsertMedia product, and NEITHER a DP-BV nor DP-USA product?

And TBL money, deposited with DP-BV or DP-USA, was being used to float an InsertMedia product (via its "DP" subsidiary, not a part of either "DP-BV" nor "DP-USA?")????

And that InsertMedia is PRIVATELY OWNED by Barry?

Is that true?

If so, that's a BIG problem, right?

Sheesh.

Post edited by Rick432

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