I cannot believe that Phil keeps speaking publically about this. Hire a good lawyer and go from there. Nothing good will ever come from all this public bashing of your current/former business partners.

Because a lawyer sucks more money out of DP USA and DP BV -- then TBL would NEVER get built. If Barry want this machine built, he's going to have to just do it without me. All I want is him to let me go.

Why is that so hard for him?

You should listen to him on this point.

Handle your problems professionally.

While these email and text reveals make for interesting reading...I can't believe anyone would willingly fight a business disagreement like this.

It looks entirely amateurish.

A lot of other Pinsiders have said this...and I echo it...you should consider settling this offline. Let any invested collectors contact DP to resolve their pre-order status on their own. Pursue legal action on your own accord in a private setting.

It might be the terms? Or it might be the fact that you shot so many holes in the ship before abandoning it

Phil,
Any updates on issuing refunds to those who have deposits on the "Dutch Pinball USA, Inc." account?

I have sent you PMs/emails with the transaction IDs and the PayPal case numbers. PayPal says its waiting for your response.

Actually that's exactly what I'm trying to say. I'm talking about backlogged BOP 2.0 money coming from TBL money, not TBL preorders funding the TBL owners/business.

So now they want to dissolve DP USA, Inc *after* they deliver all the pre-orders that were paid through them? That's the only way they will let Phil out? Why would that be?

..Dude.

I don't know if you're the bad guy or the good guy and I frankly don't care. But I know how works from now on.. and if you don't get a lawyer asap you can get sued for things you didn't even know existed.

Get it togheter, stop posting, call a lawyer, cure yourself.

I've got no skin in this game and sympathise with those who have, this is a total circus.

There's one argument to discuss this behind closed doors, but if that was my cash on the DP merry-go-round I would want to know who had it and if it was being swapped about.

Regarding not letting Phil go that quote from the Godfather comes to mind

Have you even read any post with comprehension? My god man...

I keep thinking of this scene whilst reading this thread.

My guess is that moving the money is expensive due to paypal/exchange rates/etc. I would have said accounting reasons... but those appear to be out the window

but add it to the list of questions DP should address (why DP USA is still needed) in that coming out party

Speculating but there were likely agreements signed for their partnership at the beginning. I had a situation with removing a partner(same going from 3 of us to 2 of us) from my business awhile back and it wasn't just as easy as signing a form, transferring money and being done with it. We had to cover our butts on his liabilities and what if situations from past events ever came back. It was a good 1-2 month process to assure all our best interests were covered to make it a fair split for us all. Sometimes it isn't just black and white no matter how someone wants to say it is. The partner wanting out of course just wanted money and to move on but we as the owners had to assure things were done a certain way to protected our vested interest moving forward.

Unsolicited a couple days ago.

It showed up as a $4500 credit to my credit card this morning.

I'll be back in as soon as I see a completed game!

This is true. When you are to let a partner out of a partnership, it takes time. Most of the time, the company needs a valuation performed by a CVA in order to even get a good idea as to what the price of buying out the 3rd member could possibly be. Plus not to mention the complicated accounting issues that come to light with buying out a partner (there are multiple accounting treatments to choose from). Like the Dude said, "There are a lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of what-have-yous"

@MikeHogue - Thanks for the clarification. Looks like no one outside of the lucky few who got refunds unsolicited have gotten refunds. I still have $4500 dollars is limbo.

I just submitted a paypal claim on my 8500 that was resent between the refund from Phil and him posting here.

I also emailed [email protected] asking for a refund and explaining that I would withdraw the claim once they refunded me.

I still want the game but I am not comfortable having the 8500 sitting out there in limbo.

Wish me luck.

This just keeps getting better. Popcorn.gif

There's a trend I'm seeing with a lot of these boutique companies. When they're looking for pre-order money, they're at every show chatting away, able to host parties with friends, and are easily accessible via any form of communication within minutes. But when an answer is needed on a delivery estimate, a refund, or removal of a promised feature, suddenly they act like they're stranded on a remote island unable to communicate with the world.

There are some brilliant minds in this industry when it comes to designing and building pinball machines. My suggestion for them when starting a company is to team up with a qualified business person who can professionally handle the business side while you create.

Everyone in this story looks bad.

Doesn't sound like that's the issue here. Phil didn't want to be bought out, he was trying to give everything away. It's fine if you want to be careful about liabilities etc, but you don't leave someone who's bailed in charge of a company bank account if that's the kind of approach you have.

Seems the sticking point was finding someone to take over the US side. Phil makes it sound like someone Dutch could just get a TIN, but I dunno if it's really that simple. I have a TIN as part of my corporation, and it was easy to get, but I'm a US citizen. Does the same apply to someone from Holland?

Phil man, I dunno what else can be said at this point. I'm sorry the three of you couldn't just work it out. It doesn't seem necessary to destroy any prototypes, nor does it seem unreasonable to stop showing them in public until things are approved. Both side could have met in the middle. But I guess that bridge is burned.

Ofcourse he hasnt, he's dutch and we never follow the rules..

This is better then the aus jjp dealer that fucked people over... I thought that was crazy as personal shot was posted.... Keep going Phil, send back people's money let them decide to reinvest

Now you've got your refund, Phil can sit easy What about all the others??

man we could make a reality tv show for all this. I would watch it.

Excellent!! That sums it up perfectly.

But under 2 minutes, you had that sitting ready right there, right

Even if he just wanted to wash his hands of it, it still takes time and legal documents need to be signed. as for getting a TIN (I assumed this meant tax identification number), my international tax experience is limited, and I have only dealt with US citizens earning money in other countries, not the other way around. That is a good question though. I just took the point about finding someone to look after the US side as them trying to find someone they could trust to continue what Phil no longer wants to be a part of.

Yes take care of yourself while you do the rest of the refunds.

I don't know for sure, but I don't think so. I knew a guy from Holland that lived in The States for a couple of years, having his own exporting business and as long as he lived there he was complaining that they could kick him out of the country any time, taking away his business if his revenue dropped below some point. He needed to keep it self sustaining at every time. Eventually he left on his own free will because he was tired of that dark cloud above his head all the time.

I do think it is more complicated than this. Phil did state he wasn't interested in profits, but there is likely salary, expenses, possible reimbursements, etc.
On the other side I wouldn't want to own a 33% stake in a company (DP-USA) and be responsible for 100% of the liability. Having that 1/3 vote when the majority own the other company would be senseless.

Hahahaha. That's quick.
This topic is getting pretty racist.

Complete bullocks, I also saw a guy with a Dutch flag over here that was also concerned

I'm waiting for Nate (C2C pinball) to chime in here

I wont be the judge about all this matter, as an pinball lover i find this very disturbing, as this will definently jeopardize the whole TBL game bringing it out of the prototype stage and into production.. Will this be an premature dead of the game i hope not guys for the sake of pinball.. but to be honest i find this thread more entertaining then prime time tv..

Where is my popcorn

Posted 24 hours ago.

Still waiting...

If you want to read the entire thread, you'll need camping equipment...

Just watch out with all the PM's! The Dutch are everywhere!

" every man for himself " comes to mind, how about lets huddle up in tight formation and sit out the storm..

Phil - am I accurate in assuming that since I repaid after you refunded me you no longer have access to that money?

While we've only heard one side to this story, the fact that barry and Jaap aren't coming on here to defend themselves implies guilt does it not? If these were lies, wouldn't they want to defend themselves?

I would not conclude that. They are probably consulting legal advice before making any statement. That's what I would do anyway (for both sides).

I would agree. They have to now carefully construct a response if they are going to respond at all.

No, that's not a fair call .. Maybe silence can balance out what's been said here.

I really was interested in buying into this pin , but I had gut feelings that was telling me differently. I already had one pinball payed up that wasn't even in production yet ( The Hobbit ) , I did not need anymore funds tied up in uncertainty. I'm glad i listened to my gut .

I hope everything turns out well for those that have deposits on TBL. The lack of handling funds properly has me scared off from this company.

Sorry folks I fell about 10 pages back. I simply don't have the time to go back and read it all. Was anyone ever able to find a way to seek a refund for older payments instead of getting the auto "its been 45 days" blah blah blah stuff?

I'm done with TBL and DP.

Thanks for that jab,
I know they had an appointment to do the interview yesterday hence why I thought it would be online but it's not so I'm still eagerly waiting

ITIN are needed if you need to have a tax id and do not quality for a Social Security Number. Typically this means you have a need to be filing a US Tax return. I had to deal with this with a part time employee, but I am certainly no tax expert. I do not recall how fast that can be done.

Since Phil was an owner in the company, him announcing "I am leaving", certainly does not terminate his situation with the company and there may have been legal consequences of just shutting off his access to things. In addition, it is certainly expected that an owner who is looking to sell his share (whether for financial consideration or not), is going to have work through that transition and a variety of legal items. Now it certainly sounds like Phil has tried to initiate that (of course the type of legal entity and the corporate documents, would have some impact on this as well). Regardless, I still want to hear the other side of the story before I draw any conclusions on what is really going on.

Oh, I hope you didn't take that as a jab at you. Not how it was intended at all. I'd just like to hear the other side of this fiasco.