(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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#1051 4 years ago
Quoted from Jakenjoi:

They haven't even shipped product A, and there wasn't even enough money from product B preorders to pay for the parts to fill the overdue orders of product A.

So you've seen the books haven't you?

Some of you are the best in making assumptions based on other assumptions. I know for a fact that there actually IS a production facility and that these guys are looking further ahead than you give them credit for. Sure, there are things they could have handled better, I will not argue there, but it's their first complete machine and within a time span of 30 hours these guys have fallen from pinball gods (just read the older threads on TBL here on Pinside) to a bunch of amateurs that even can't tie their own shoes.

#1052 4 years ago

Right now it sound more like they went from the wizard of Oz pre curtain pull back to post...

17
#1053 4 years ago

I think the best chance for TBL to get made would be for DP to sell their design to Stern or JJP and have them build the games and handle all of the business/legal stuff for them.

#1054 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

I've come to realize you just like to argue. Ride that light cycle into my ignore list.

And I've come to realize some people simply can't handle being held to accuracy and logic and instead hide in misdirection and falsehoods. Whatever floats your boat.

#1055 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

I think the best chance for TBL to get made would be for DP to sell their design to Stern or JJP and have them build the games and handle all of the business/legal stuff for them.

Why would Stern want a design that doesn't use their parts, platform, or software? They'd basically be buying a playfield design and concept and would start all over.

#1056 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

And who might these "Investors" be that would feel comfortable investing money in a new company that already has a negative track-record on how to run a business. I think we "hobbyists" are more forgiving then businessmen that actually invest in pinball machine companies to make money.

Maybe they should try to float their business plan on ABC's "Shark Tank".

I would expect any injection of capital would come with a new CEO, control of the board of directors and a host of other caveats, but it's possible... especially if they have a product that is substantially complete and they haven't burned their bridges with Universal.

10
#1057 4 years ago

Three sides to every story, We have heard Phil's, I want to hear Barry/Jaaps' and then I will do my best to determine what I think the truth is (the third side to the story).

All we have right now is a bunch of folks running around making wild assumptions, theories or statements based on conjecture and not fact.

Lets be careful that we don't takes months of positive feelings about DP and in 48 hours burn those to the ground. Maybe this is the end of DP, but I doubt that. Lets try to just chill a little bit until we hear the other side of the story.

I agree Barry needs to speak up and he needs to do it soon. It sounds like he did send a note to VIPs, so he has not ignored this, but a more complete and thorough update is needed, but at the same time, it sounds like there is some other stuff going on with travel and Jaap's mother, so another 24 hours for them to respond is not outrageous.

#1058 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

within a time span of 30 hours these guys have fallen from pinball gods (just read the older threads on TBL here on Pinside) to a bunch of amateurs that even can't tie their own shoes.

Perception and image vs reality...

No one has questioned their game or their ability to design it... but they apparently need some serious advise when it comes to running a business.

#1059 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Why would Stern want a design that doesn't use their parts, platform, or software? They'd basically be buying a playfield design and concept and would start all over.

That is exactly what I expect Stern would do in this situation. They would re-tool the game using Stern parts/technology. With Stern's knowledge and experience they could probably get the game ready for production within 4-5 months which would still meet the Spring 2015 time-frame that DP is supposed to meet. They would basically be paying for the layout/concept/artwork and ideas such as the bowling alley toy, etc. The game looks like it would be a slam dunk if it ever gets made. I'm not sure what that would be worth to a company like Stern or JJP?

#1060 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

they apparently need some serious advise when it comes to running a business.

This seems to be the flip side of what has happened with p-roc (and like products) opening up the possibilities for small pinball manufacturers. You start with building the pinball, and there is a large lack of expertise in other needed areas of the company, combined with the "easy money" of pre-orders and lack of accountability.

Maybe "I'm in the manufacturing business" is not a terrible thing for a pinball company owner to say.

#1061 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

On pinball news, JJP did a presentation on Hobbit. In the presentation they showed a multiball sequence which Peter Jackson himself said no to. They still showed it as it was their vision and what they wanted to put in the game. It was refused and so abandoned. Is that illegal showing their vision? If it is not in The final product or licence is worked out before then is it still illegal.
UNIVERSAL may not know of the pin, but was it DP intention to make a prototype and show UNI the "vision" and then go make changes after that. Granted they should not have taken it to a show or organised events to show their vision before complete approval.

The difference here is JJP stated up front that those were rejected by the license holders and was not going to be in the final product. With DP, everything was implied to be what the final product would have: pot leaf, gun, disembodied legs, all call outs, kahlua (although this was questioned by the masses), even the soundtrack...who knows if that's even licensed now! The point is there was no disclaimer that none of it was approved or unapproved. Without that disclaimer the thought is that it's approved and final.

#1062 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Perception and image vs reality...

Another assumption. Why not the other way around?

#1063 4 years ago

Simple solution, just drive on over to Twin Peaks and ask any of those waitresses if they'd like to own a pinball company.

#1064 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

No, it's a simple way of doing business. Maybe companies like Texaco or Toyota use this way of doing business, but a small company like DP uses it's cash flow on current projects and they are not going to stick every penny in a pot marked TBL or BoB.

Not every company uses the preorder model to fund their operations. I personally think it is a hugely risky way to fund your company, and I applaud companies like Spooky Pinball and Multimorphic for bootstrapping development themselves and not treating preorder money as general use cash flow.

Even if you manage to sell enough games to where your profit covers your development costs and you still have enough money left over to build every game, that means that, even if you 100% farm out production, you are essentially working for free for the entire lengthy process of getting those games built, tested, delivered, and supported during your warranty period.

Most of these companies are run by people who love to design pinball games, so there is even more incentive to drag out the "Fun" (paid) design and development part of the process, and put off the "not fun" (unpaid and probably underfunded) manufacturing part of the process. So what have we seen? Announcements of subsequent game titles to bring in new funding before the manufacturing process even begins. If game 2 revenues successfully fund game 1's manufacturing and game 2's development cost, that puts the company in an even worse position for game 2's manufacturing phase.

It is not a given that you can't develop a game without tapping into pre-order money. Spooky and multimorphic have shown that, while hard, it's possible, and that is essentially how all pinball companies began before the pinball Pyrite-rush that came after Jan 2011.

I think the hobby and industry will get back to a much more stable existence when we, the customers, stop just accepting the pre-order funding model as the normal way to run a new pinball company.

#1065 4 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

Yay! Now over a 1000 Posts based on a one sided , un-verified dispute dragged into a forum, knowing it'll get blown up, creating panic, folks pulling out ill-informed, not waiting on the full story.... Good show, and probably the intended effect...

One-sided because the other "side" hasn't said anything useful yet, and we're more than 48 hours past time when the refunds were given. WTF? Barry and Jaap, you need to say something publicly, now. This disorganization at the top scares me far more than disputes with Universal.

19
#1066 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

It's more than the fact they are using phils name. The underlying issue is the fact they willfully created a new PayPal account under DP USA. Phils issue with that is his social is attached to the PayPal account used by DP USA. To go further, Phil's issue with DP Euro withdrawing money from DP USA is the fact that they don't have any obligatory responsibilities to DP USA. DP Euro can bankrupt DP USA but not be on the hook to provide any good or services for said money. In essence, people would be forced to sue Phil for fraud. Phil is in a terrible position and people defending DP Euro clearly lack even a rudimentary understanding of business liability. What I find most troubling if true, is DP euro created a new DP usa account still using phil's tax Id number (tin) or his social AFTER Phil quit. One has to seriously question DP euro's intentions by continuing to leave Phil on the hook for a company he's frozen out of on all other fronts.
The silence on DP euro's part is inexcusable and unbelievable. Enough with travel excuses. The company has been shaken to its core. There is no time to gather yourself. No time to put spin on anything. The truth only needs someone's mouth to start moving to be told. Who at DP euro is going to start us off...
**this isn't directed at you hwawonya. I just grabbed the first post in context.**

Best summary of the last couple days.

#1067 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

This seems to be the flip side of what has happened with p-roc (and like products) opening up the possibilities for small pinball manufacturers. You start with building the pinball, and there is a large lack of expertise in other needed areas of the company, combined with the "easy money" of pre-orders and lack of accountability.

An astute observation. The more recent evolution where the possibility to get all the major game components 'off the shelf' and less need to do materials manufacturing yourself can lead people into thinking all they need to do is have the design and they can simply act as an integrator to get a game built. Combine that with the recent phenom of crowd funding, and the possibilities are pretty exciting and encouraging. But we've all heard the tune before... about how hard it is to actually build games.

To break out of the constraints of the established companies, you gotta go out on your own... but alas even if all you are doing is integrating components.. you can't really operate in this modern age as a full fledged business without the sound business practices. Too much liability, too much regulation, etc.

I love the idea of pinball startups. But there are some pieces you just can't skip if you want succeed in the long run.

#1068 4 years ago

WOW say goodbye to pre-order. My .02 get your money decide more when its safe.

I cant believe how long the defense has gone on.

This is the Australian WOZ all over again. This is real money, your families money. You can always buy TBL if it gets made. From the sounds of things money is not completely sound and balanced at DP. So if they make this pin they will need to sell it. Then you can buy it safely. If DP wants to rebuild there name they will allow everyone there "spot" back. After public hit like this screwing over customers wont go well.

I have no opinion about what Phil is doing. But this is your chance people. If lawyers get involved there will be no money to give back. Phil may also get told the best route is to take the money and bankrupt the company. We don't know his corporate structure, what if its limited liability. When I hear gunshots I go the other way. I don't go figure out what happened.
The guns firing. Get in contact with paypal work towards getting your money and be happy if you do.

Plain and simple. There is no reason Phil is still in charge of this acct. When you leave a company that day they take everything, everything. Sometimes even if a company senses your leaving soon they add secondary transition people in. It seems extremely odd that a company would keep this kind of liability open. Unless, they have a way to profit from it.

It sounds like people really want this game. I got no horse in this race.
Now is not the time for witty pinside comments, company cheer-leading. Now is the time to get your money secure. Then be prepared to purchase what ever ashes rise from this mess.

Phil,
I would contact Paypal to refund everyone.

Just close Paypal let them start accepting there own payments. Then they are on the hook even if its in your name again. You did not sign up for that account. If what you say is true even with your name on it, it wont matter. They are using this new account fraudulently in your name. In a separate issue take that up with ic3, paypal, whoever.

Most importantly just get the money to the people. Then let DP do DP's work

Ps I think TBL looks sweet. I would not mind having one. But not at this risk.
Put down the kool-aid and take off the blinders.

#1069 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

One-sided because the other "side" hasn't said anything useful yet, and we're more than 48 hours past time when the refunds were given. WTF? Barry and Jaap, you need to say something publicly, now. This disorganization at the top scares me far more than disputes with Universal.

I'm in on TBL, haven't received nor requested a refund, but I completely agree with this. The silence from DP has me far more concerned than anything else. It's been close to 48 hours now and these issues are yet to be addressed, and while I understand and sympathise with Jaap's personal situation, Barry should absolutely have made a public statement - New York isn't a long flight from Holland, so the travel issue really doesn't excuse the lack of communication.

#1070 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Well over here I call that commingling and it's wrong . Those deposits are to be towards the TBL project and were promised as fully refundable at any time . At minimum the money better be somewhere at DP .

Grounds for veil piercing.

#1071 4 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

What would you do, if you went into a legitimate business with your friends, investing about $100'000, and a year's worth of (pretty darned good) free labor. You then found out they were doing something illegal. You try to talk them out of it, but they keep doing it. You scream, stop, but they keep doing it. You say fine, I quit, keep the profits, keep the money, just please take my name off the business so I don't get in trouble if you get caught. They don't.

I would've contacted a lawyer and proceeded with legal action.

Sending out unauthorized refunds, and posting internal grievances on Pinside is childish and unprofessional.

Your actions appear more like a disgruntled employee trying to sabotage the company and create havoc.

DP failed to handle your termination correctly. DP is correct not to respond to your shitstorm here. Communication should be done directly to those involved.

#1072 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The more recent evolution where the possibility to get all the major game components 'off the shelf' and less need to do materials manufacturing yourself can lead people into thinking all they need to do is have the design and they can simply act as an integrator to get a game built ... To break out of the constraints of the established companies, you gotta go out on your own... but alas even if all you are doing is integrating components.. you can't really operate in this modern age as a full fledged business without the sound business practices.

Come on guys, give these people some credit here. You all saw the TBL prototype. You all saw the bowling alley underneath that play field. You saw the way they used a special produced computer screen in the back box and you saw the software, even if it was only 15% ready. You can hardly call that "taking stuff off the shelve and stick it together".

They might have underestimated licensing and international business stuff here, but you can't compare some boutique pinball setup that has been working for 5 years on the same pinball design to these guys, who went from planning to actually building 5 prototypes in a matter of one year?

15
#1073 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Another assumption. Why not the other way around?

Why don't you start off with trying to overcome the facts of the matter before you throw everything out as 'assumptions'.

Answer us this.. what is 'perception' about DP's inability to manage the US entity and it's assets?

Here's what I know... when I leave my company, they'll escort me and cut off my access within hours. They will legally isolate me and dissolve my ability to act on the company's behalf. They will initiate steps to reclaim any company assets I have. They will ensure customers or those that need things I was responsible for have alternative contacts and a way to ensure business continuity within a short period of time with my departure.

Why? Because that's what you do to ensure an individuals actions do not cause harm or disruptions to your business.

Please tell us what reality you see about Dutch Pinball USA. I'm all ears.

#1074 4 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

Given that there is a stampede for the door right now, to me the only financially responsible thing for an individual to do would be to get their money back and decide once things shake out whether to re-invest.

Of course I can see your point... it's my wife's point too... but I suppose in some crazy way I still believe that despite this total madness that seems to have developed, DP will survive... and by hanging on in there, I'm at least helping it get to that point... the more people that hang on in, the more chance of survival this project has... We have to realise that all of this fire is crated by one man... Who's said a lot... What he's said is scary, and seems to be designed to try and make DP collapse (if he simply wanted out, he could have written a nice letter to the people he decided to refund explaining that they should re-direct their payment to DP BV, as he offered Barry to do... Barry didn't say OK, so he did it the damaging way (also without Barry's OK) and he started a fire, causing people to panic and bail out... You can't tell me his sole purpose was to think of his family... how is starting this fire thinking of them? He seems to have had two purposes: 1) Get out so his family is secure. 2) Make the DP ship sink by scaring people... The more people go the way he's scaring them to, the more chance he has to succeed in objective 2... I'm all for him succeeding in objective 1, but I do want DP to survive this.

United we stand, divided we fall!

#1075 4 years ago

All we know right now is that DP was not willing to unwind their business deal with Phil on Phil's terms. We don't know what those terms were or if they involved money. All Phil was willing to throw out in the forum is that he wants out and was willing to forego any 'future' money.

Phil decided to take it to the street and DP does not have that luxury. They seem to be handling the legal matter like a legal matter - without a lot of public comment on it. From their VIP release yesterday:

"We did everything in our power to settle issues in a normal way with Phil, but unfortunately he decided to take matters in his own hands and is doing whatever he's doing for reasons we don't know. We really regret your involvement in this situation and we hope we can settle this as soon as possible so we can focus on fun things again.

Our goal is to make awesome games. This will not be changed or damaged by an individual who just wants to discredit our success and/or our project(s)."

I am giving them time to "settle this as soon as possible" and then relay a message to us. Anything additional they could say at this point would be along the same lines as the statement above. I am pretty sure they are consulting an attorney and an attorney would tell them to keep public and private communications to a minimum.

#1076 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

One-sided because the other "side" hasn't said anything useful yet, and we're more than 48 hours past time when the refunds were given. WTF? Barry and Jaap, you need to say something publicly, now. This disorganization at the top scares me far more than disputes with Universal.

So you're then agreed till now its one-sided, correct? and all that's been assumed here needs to be revisited when the other "side" has delivered their version of the story to make a full judgement call on the situation ?

The VIP's got an email like myself, stating that they are aware of Phil's actions, don't approve of them and want to get to the bottom if it, and this can take up to few days after returning from NYC.

That sounds like we will get an answer, not disorganization at the top (not counting phil as a top member here)

Till that time we really know nothing for sure, but does one ever..?

#1077 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Please tell us what reality you see about Dutch Pinball USA. I'm all ears.

basically, his reality is "i really want this machine, and who cares what rules get broken. also, the rest of you keep your cash in the company, otherwise i won't get my machine"... the rest of the reality is that he really has no clue how business in the united states works, and what the legal requirements are surrounding MANY different things...

oh, and, "we should cut them a break for cutting corners, look how fast they did a prototype"... all the while ignoring the fact that it's easy to do stuff quicker if you don't bother playing by the rules...

33
#1078 4 years ago

We interrupt this "hot topic" with a message from your local moderator team.

#1. Please remember to keep arguments focused on the topic. Do NOT start making personal attacks. We have noticed the existing personal attacks, and we are close to issuing thread ejects for those that continue to make things personal in public on this thread.

#2. This thread WILL NOT BE closed. This is a very important subject for many Pinsiders. So rather than closing the thread, we will simply start using the the thread eject.

#3. The moderator team is watching this thread closely. It will remain open unless Robin decides otherwise.

#4. Moderators are pinside members too. Some may even be buyers of TBL. When a moderator responds in this thread, please recognize his/her right to an opinion. This opinion is not the official stance of Pinside. It is simply the opinion of the person posting. Feel free to engage any moderator in this thread as you would any other member.

#5 If you have questions or concerns regarding this thread, please use the moderator feedback option and we will be happy to discuss things on the feedback thread.

Thanks.

We return you to your normally scheduled program.

Marcus

#1079 4 years ago
Quoted from JustLikeMe:

I'm in on TBL, haven't received nor requested a refund, but I completely agree with this. The silence from DP has me far more concerned than anything else. It's been close to 48 hours now and these issues are yet to be addressed, and while I understand and sympathise with Jaap's personal situation, Barry should absolutely have made a public statement - New York isn't a long flight from Holland, so the travel issue really doesn't excuse the lack of communication.

He probably has spent the last 48 hours communicating with lawyers. His next move will be very important and he wants to be very cautious, I would guess.

#1080 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Come on guys, give these people some credit here. You all saw the TBL prototype. You all saw the bowling alley underneath that play field. You saw the way they used a special produced computer screen in the back box and you saw the software, even if it was only 15% ready. You can hardly call that "taking stuff off the shelve and stick it together".

As someone that is actually responsible for product development in real life.. not just on the internet.. getting prototypes done and sexy is a great win, but it's not the war. Many a good effort or idea has died or been dramatically crippled as something goes from 'my personal pet' to global product.

The fit and finish of their prototype was amazing... I think it speaks volumes to the talent they assembled. But also striking from their company bio is where is the expertise in administration, operations, and background OUTSIDE of the creative group. The kind of grievances seen here really highlight that omission.

#1081 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

I'm happy in a way, not for people with thousands of dollars in limbo of course, but rather for the realization that the 'kickstarter' model most often than not results in bad feelings. It's a terrible way to do business and is a reflection of the something for nothing society at large today.

??? I've had something like a 9/10 success ratio for actual Kickstarter projects ranging from $25 to $1800. No one expects "something for nothing" - participants expect something for our $25 or $1800 or whatever. As in any business exchange there's a chance something bad will happen due to chance or bad scruples, but there's nothing inherently wrong with helping to finance a cool idea knowing there is some risk. That's how a lot of businesses get started.

36
#1082 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Here's what I know... when I leave my company, they'll escort me and cut off my access within hours. They will legally isolate me and dissolve my ability to act on the company's behalf. They will initiate steps to reclaim any company assets I have. They will ensure customers or those that need things I was responsible for have alternative contacts and a way to ensure business continuity within a short period of time with my departure.

What F'd up companies have you worked for? When I leave a company they leave me on the corporate bank account. When I plead with them to take me off, they ignore me. Instead they create new accounts impersonating me.

That's not normal?

29
#1083 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

They might have underestimated licensing and international business stuff here, but you can't compare some boutique pinball setup that has been working for 5 years on the same pinball design to these guys, who went from planning to actually building 5 prototypes in a matter of one year?

It's a little more than one year, that's just the public perception. Regardless, you're right. I still believe in the vision DP has for TBL. The prototypes look great. The design is inspired.

The funny thing is one reason I initially got in was because I was so impressed with all the work they'd done to secure the licenses. 20 songs. Brunswick. All the hoops they jumped through to get the actors set. I don't know what to credit Phil with or not, but he definitely was an integral part of that. You haven't even heard about it all, there's more, a lot of work was put in. I left Expo seriously impressed.

So people shouldn't think the license stuff was just blown off. It seems like it's more just some impatience to get to Expo and show the product before everything was signed off on. I never had any worries about Universal suing DP or anything like that, more concerns that they'd decide the partnership wasn't working out because the rules weren't being followed and just pulling the license. That would be game over of course.

I don't think Barry and Jaap are trying to defraud anyone. I don't think DP is a scam.

What I am seeing is some really creative people who don't have running a business under control. And the problem is that shit matters. You can't just be creative. You get Jpop and Zidware when that happens.

You don't have to take Phil's side to have concerns here. Bride shipping late, no communication. Turns out Bride is unfinished, which is a big deal for a software-focused project. No communication (just Scott trying to post what he can in the forums, all very vague). That was the last straw for me on getting out on TBL, I can't handle a company that won't communicate doing pre-orders.

And now, once again, total silence in the face of issues. How a company handles a crisis is sometimes the best trial for their competency. Surely everyone expect TBL to ship late too, this isn't an industry known for first timers nailing deadlines. What kind of communication could we expect then? Where is the company now?

Even if you ignore all the issues Phil brings up, it's hard to feel comfortable with the response level. If you want to be a silent creative genius then IMHO you should build the game in silence, and show it when it's done. This "show it early, build hype" model fails badly when you can't keep the communication alive.

#1084 4 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

All we know right now is that DP was not willing to unwind their business deal with Phil on Phil's terms. We don't know what those terms were or if they involved money.

No, we also know they failed to **secure** their US entity in face of an employee situation that posed a huge liability for them including customer funds.

Whatever the outcome with Phil would be... they needed to address their US entity and secure their ongoing operation and assets. Obviously they didn't.

#1085 4 years ago

This thread is officially too long.

#1086 4 years ago

I'd still preorder games, but only from JJP and Stern. But Stern doesn't do preorders, really, and JJP is phasing it out. So yeah...I guess the preorder model is dead. And that sucks for all the other boutique manufacturers. This one epic mess may stall all the momentum pinball had been gathering with all the new companies stepping up. And that, in the end, may be the biggest disappointment of all.

#1087 4 years ago
Quoted from steigerpijp:

The VIP's got an email like myself, stating that they are aware of Phil's actions, don't approve of them and want to get to the bottom if it, and this can take up to few days after returning from NYC.

That sounds like we will get an answer, not disorganization at the top (not counting phil as a top member here)

That's the problem - Phil *IS* still a top member. He announced his leaving six weeks ago, but the Saturday VIP email confirms he's still a one-third principal in Dutch Pinball. Phil explained in detail how he tried repeatedly to remove himself from the company, while on the other side the VIP email claims "We did everything in our power to settle issues in a normal way with Phil." Well, someone is bullshitting I will sit on my refund until there is clear direction going forward for Dutch Pinball without Phil (and that includes learning how not to be careless with licensed assets).

#1088 4 years ago
Quoted from Cheeks:

What F'd up companies have you worked for?

Apparently not dutch companies...

All tho we have acquired and assimilated ones!

#1089 4 years ago

I'm not in on TBL, but I'm really surprised at the lack of communication. It's end of business day over in Europe, and no response?
Hope it works out for those that have money sent.
Good luck!

#1090 4 years ago

Whoa Whoa WHOA!! They are making a big lebowski pinball. I had no idea

#1091 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

the rest of the reality is that he really has no clue how business in the united states works, and what the legal requirements are surrounding MANY different things...
oh, and, "we should cut them a break for cutting corners, look how fast they did a prototype"... all the while ignoring the fact that it's easy to do stuff quicker if you don't bother playing by the rules...

seems legit..

#1092 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

That's the problem - Phil *IS* still a top member. He announced his leaving six weeks ago, but the Saturday VIP email confirms he's still a one-third principal in Dutch Pinball. Phil explained in detail how he tried repeatedly to remove himself from the company, while on the other side the VIP email claims "We did everything in our power to settle issues in a normal way with Phil." Well, someone is bullshitting I will sit on my refund until there is clear direction going forward for Dutch Pinball without Phil (and that includes learning how not to be careless with licensed assets).

I guess were agreed then, including phil there is definitely disorganization , but even though he is on paper in future we need to see Barry and Jaap as the top from now on. And sitting on that refund is not a bad idea, and you can choose to reinvest or not depending on the situation when the gog clears.

#1093 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

"We did everything in our power to settle issues in a normal way with Phil." Well, someone is bullshitting

Yep..thank you brah....and I repeat we've only gotten one side of it.

18
#1094 4 years ago

Phil. Thank you for the refund. Now is the time for you to take care of yourself and family!

To Dutch Pinball,

I'm still very interested in this game. I'm now going to wait for a complete finished game before I make a purchase. Good luck!

#1095 4 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

So you've seen the books haven't you?
Some of you are the best in making assumptions based on other assumptions. I know for a fact that there actually IS a production facility and that these guys are looking further ahead than you give them credit for. Sure, there are things they could have handled better, I will not argue there, but it's their first complete machine and within a time span of 30 hours these guys have fallen from pinball gods (just read the older threads on TBL here on Pinside) to a bunch of amateurs that even can't tie their own shoes.

I don't see why you're taking this so personal. You heard it from the horse's mouth.

Would I like to see TBL made? Absolutely!

Am I realistic enough to step back and analyze a situation objectively? Absolutely!

Phil said he was buying parts himself, with his own money, not even TBL preorder money, to pay for BOP2.0 because of the misappropriated funds.

That's all my previous statement pointed out. That makes me incredibly doubtful.

Add in the potential fraud and liability for good measure, and it's doubtful someone is going to give him a decent loan to keep the business afloat.

But having a factory is great if you want to manufacture something, but you need your ducks in a row to mass manufacture anything. Not only are the ducks not in a row, it sounds like there aren't even many ducks left.

Edit: The reason they fell so far is because they designed something with wreckless abandonement. It's not because of what Phil said, it's because of what DP did. Phil only brought the issues to light.

Edit^2: And, if what Phil is saying isn't true, couldn't Barry easily dissolve this entire situation by posting the truth? Do you agree with that at the very least? If I give you the benefit of the doubt, that every single screengrab and word Phil has said is untrue, it wouldn't take much effort to disprove right?

In the presence of new knowledge I'm always willing to change my opinion/conclusion. If not I'd still believe in Santa Claus.

#1096 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeHogue:

Phil. Thank you for the refund.

@MikeHogue - Was your refund one of the original group that was unsolicited? Or, did you explicitly ask for one after all this started?

#1097 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

"We did everything in our power to settle issues in a normal way with Phil." Well, someone is bullshitting

Here was their (corrected spelling - oops, already took my meds) attempt to settle. I stay. We vote on decisions. Majority (2 out of 3) rules.

I say pull the prototypes, destroy the unauthorized playfields, remove all unapproved marketing.
I lose, 2 - 1.

Today he finally writes back, "Please stop posting on Pinside. You are harming the business (which includes yourself). We made you an offer on December 4 (see attachment) and are waiting for your reply."

My reply. You've blocked me from accessing customer order information. You've hijacked my email and are using it to take DP USA Inc payments to Holland. (I called PayPal: The Name Barry Driessen IS the one associated with phil@).

Multiple lies. Using IP that's not authorized. Why the hell would I want to go back and work with them? I already quit once. Barry, again, let me go.

Screen Shot 2014-12-15 at 18.24.36.png

#1098 4 years ago

sorry, I forgot to add, and DP USA will not pay for Bride.

DP BV (the Dutch one) shouldn't pay for Bride either.

Bride was made under Dutch Pinball, NOT Dutch Pinball BV. Dutch Pinball is a subsidiary of Insert Media, Barry's company.

I mention that only for those of you who say it's all the same company, so the same money. No, these are not.

#1099 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

basically, his reality is "i really want this machine, and who cares what rules get broken. also, the rest of you keep your cash in the company, otherwise i won't get my machine"... the rest of the reality is that he really has no clue how business in the united states works, and what the legal requirements are surrounding MANY different things...
oh, and, "we should cut them a break for cutting corners, look how fast they did a prototype"... all the while ignoring the fact that it's easy to do stuff quicker if you don't bother playing by the rules...

You're correct with your statement that I don't know how business works in The US. But you guys are making assumptions based on one (Phil's) side of the story so I think I'm correct if I say that we're all a bit in the dark here, we are all reading a story that is based on how Phil sees things.

The following is based purely on MY VIEW:

I don't know the guys from DP that good. I think I've seen all of them once or twice in real life and all of these guys are real pinheads that love our hobby. I have had some extensive talks with some of their team (not with Barry or Jaap) and those were very nice conversations. They have real passion for what they are doing and they all have talent for one or more important discipline needed to make a wonderful pinball machine. Their prototypes have proven that. Did they underestimate US laws? I guess. Did they cut corners to get to a working prototype in time for Chicago? I'm sure they did. They followed their heart and in doing so, they tried to cut as many corners as needed without being caught, all to get the prototypes ready in time for Chicago. I think this game of trying how far they could go with Universal was part enthusiasm, part ignorance about US laws and part scheduling for a big surprise party at Chicago. Was that a stupid thing to do? Maybe. If Phil here did not turn this all into a 2 day soap like he did, none of us would probably ever hear of this story or we might learn from it as a nice side note in the Pinball Compendium "How these Dutch guys knew shit about licensing and just went along threading a thin line" (without the "shit" ofcourse).

Then why am I fighting so "ferocious"? I'm not fighting for "my TBL". I'm fighting for these guys and what they are trying to achieve. A small team of dedicated people that are trying to build a pinball machine based on a big Universal theme. I know some of their plans for music & dots and I know some of their plans for producing this wonderful machine and they are well thought plans. Will they miss a few steps in developing their first pinball machine? Hell, this thread proves just that and they will probably hit a few more brick walls along the way. But considering the limited size of their team (most of them also have a day job) and considering what they have achieved and how little time they needed to achieve it, I am still voting for them. They need to explain themselves, I see that too, but they don't deserve the amount of shit they received the last 40 hours. At least give them the benefit of the doubt, based on what they have realized up until a few days ago.

#1100 4 years ago
Quoted from Jakenjoi:

I don't see why you're taking this so personal. You heard it from the horse's mouth.

That's cause you misread the horses mouth. The statements indicate that Phil didn't believe TBL money should be spent on parts, BOP 2.0 shortfalls (see just above) or peoples salaries. That's why they were ponying up their own money. And I applaud the idea of keeping the deposits 100% untouched, but I wasnt expecting that as a customer of a boutique operation.

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