(Topic ID: 112377)

DP USA Refund - Still Want the Game


By JDinNOVA

5 years ago



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#1001 5 years ago

now

#1002 5 years ago

Not quite. Now we are.

Edit: Doh! Beat to the punch!

#1003 5 years ago

If we don't hear from Barry and co today I am out.

I immediately repaid in full after I got refunded but before Phil started posting all of the dirt.

They have had more than enough time to prepare a response. There hasn't even been a 'we are aware of the situation please stand by.'

The silence is deafening.

#1004 5 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

I immediately repaid in full after I got refunded but before Phil started posting all of the dirt.

D'oh!

#1005 5 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

One thing, and I may be wrong, but with all those deposits, and the end of the year, isnt that income, that gets reported to be taxed?
Sales tax?
I would not want that position.....

No. It is unearned revenue. They do not report that income until the product's title passes to the customer. It would be cash receipt and also a liability on the balance sheet until the games were complete and title passed to the customer. Then DP would move get rid of the liability and record the revenue.

Edit: this is of course assuming they are filing their returns on the accrual basis.

#1006 5 years ago

Don't see one here

*Edit* dame... late like always (1000)

21
#1007 5 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I guess I haven't heard anything that concerns me enough to pull out EXCEPT Phil inciting a panic

My .02...

- Demonstrating a complete lack of respect or understanding of the licensing laws and agreements in place
- we have the email from Julie inferring there were problems before
- we have the email from Julie pointing out known conflicts
- we have the clear examples where they go and add stuff before they have any confirmed right to
do so (the shown prototype with kaluha, unapproved art, sound, etc)
- Stories told where they brazenly ignore their adviser on the topic

None of that gets better without changes and none of that was caused by this thread.

- We have the continued problems with BOP v2 getting delivered and now all the cross-contamination
between the BOP project and DP USA. This was not caused by this thread and again shows
extremely poor business management
- We have the documented case where after many weeks they can not resolve internal business
disputes
- We have examples that show what appears to be almost zero internal business structure/process
(forwarding invoices across entities to pay each others bills). Who really believes at this point
there is a solid accounting structure in place here?

None of these problems were caused by Phil - but rather exposed by Phil to show what appears to be a group of guys on a mission to get something done.. masquerading as a business simply because it's what they needed to have in place to get this far. It does not sound like they have a solid foundation from which to pursue their ambition from.

#1008 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

So they bought parts for BoP 2.0, how's that stealing? He already stated he doesn't want any of the profits, to me that means they would have had enough money left to build the games. If this was all a scam how come BoP 2.0 customers got their kit after all the TBL money was already collected? .

This statement is wrong. Only non-US customers have received their BOP 2.0. I for one am extremely concerned after reading this thread that I may never get my kit even after being told I would in another thread.

#1009 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Just who are the guilty? DP used some money to pay for parts and travel etc... so what? It's a company they have to spend money to travel and promote the game, buy parts and stuff. So they bought parts for BoP 2.0, how's that stealing? He already stated he doesn't want any of the profits, to me that means they would have had enough money left to build the games. If this was all a scam how come BoP 2.0 customers got their kit after all the TBL money was already collected? The level of naivete on this forum is astounding. Most of you are no doubt very smart but you'd be killed in a competitive business.

not all of us have BoP 2.0 yet and even those who do have an incomplete game.

12
#1010 5 years ago

Some of you guys are still sitting here trying to justify the 6000 euro monthly withdrawals , hasn't he brought up bigger issues since then like the use of his identity to collect money in his name? That's just crazy, I'd be frekin pissed.

-4
#1011 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

'resolvable' if both parties were participating... and that was the problem. Party 2 was ignoring party 1 and dragging party 1 down with their unilateral decisions.
Its like being dragged around on a leash... you can chose not to to walk, but the leash still drags you forward. That's what was happening here.

No, that's not "what's happening here". What's happening here is that Phil TOLD you that this was happening. You chose to believe it as a FACT, not me.

Then you post "your 2 cents" acting like you've worked with Stern or Bally/Williams and know how they handle their license stuff?

17
#1012 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

yup, until the truth comes out and Phil's accusations turn out to be taken out of context or only partially true and it's just these accusations that kill off DP and any chance of the remaining people getting back their money. Sure, Phil will still be a hero to the 5 people he refunded, but for the rest of them he will be the ignition switch to this expensive detonation...

Is it just me or does it sound like the only things that matters to you is "boo they may not produce this pinball in the end, all of this because of Phil, please people stay in so I can get my TBL" ?

I have no horse in this race (thought long about this, but no pre-orders for me, even for this game which looks stunning), and I totally agree the dirty laundry shouldn't be displayed for everyone to see.
But please keep a little perspective here: Phil is accountable for the money sent to DP USA *against his will*, and even so he doesn't belong to DP anymore. Unlike here in Europe, I understand that our American friends are way more used to courtrooms and suing to resolve disputes, and it's very serious matter (here almost nobody "has a lawyer"). After trying for too long to settle this, I would've certainly done the same (the refund thing, maybe not the "spilling the beans" thing). Not mentionning he is seriously ill guys. It's only pinball for us, but he has a way bigger challenge for him and his family, think about it.

Phil raises serious questions about how the money sent to DP USA is used, hinting it may be used to fuel production for BOP2.0 promised long ago and not delivered yet. Phil is adressing questions about how DP works with the licensor.

It's been more than 24hours now, everyone one Pinside knows about this, and still no word from Barry or Jaap, not even a message to say "We have been aware of some issues regarding TBL pre-orders and DP USA. We are adressing these issues right now and will publish answers about them shortly." ?

#1013 5 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

This statement is wrong. Only non-US customers have received their BOP 2.0. I for one am extremely concerned after reading this thread that I may never get my kit even after being told I would in another thread.

The reason is the invoice for the parts was not paid.

Post by no trash cougar yesterday:
The US games will be shipping with at least v1.09. As for finalizing the Bride code, I don't have a specific date, but we are actively working on it. We plan on making incremental updates as we progress through the rest of the project.

Right now, my number 1 priority is getting you guys your kits.

--Scott

#1014 5 years ago

85vett, I spoke over the weekend with the only person I trust right now at dp and was told the pcs are being imaged and should be done in the next week and a half. I am going to follow this closely and if it starts to slip (again) I'll pull out. At this point I think the only thing keeping BOP2 alive is the leverage it has on TBL. If all of the US customers of bop request refunds I think dp would have trouble operating after additional 30k in refunds.

I have very little confidence in upgrades though. I understand that techies are not always the best at business but this whole situation does not inspire confidence.

#1015 5 years ago
Quoted from Phil-DP-USA:

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL HIM TO CALL ME.

Screen Shot 2014-12-15 at 13.50.... 160 KB

Unfortunately, fraud is also the word that popped into my mind when I read post #903.

#1016 5 years ago

Heads-up.

I just got an email from Barry - but asked for clarification.

I've also asked that he address the VIP's / pinside.

The last thing I need to be is a f'n parrot.

-Rod

#1017 5 years ago

Wow. Abort mission. They better clear this up quick for you all. I am hoping for your funds to be safe.

14
#1018 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Just who are the guilty? DP used some money to pay for parts and travel etc... so what? It's a company they have to spend money to travel and promote the game, buy parts and stuff. So they bought parts for BoP 2.0, how's that stealing?

If you are going to direct a post at me - you should stick to things I've actually said.

- Declaring some innocent (buyers) does not define who are the guilty. So I didn't declare anyone guilty with that line
- Where did I say stealing? That's right, I didn't
- Company assets are not a personal slush fund to just reallocate like your personal piggy bank. There are accounting implications on what and where money is associated with.

Quoted from kvan99:

If this was all a scam how come BoP 2.0 customers got their kit after all the TBL money was already collected?

Where are all the US kits again? And again... where did I say this was some scam?

Quoted from kvan99:

The level of naivete on this forum is astounding.

The logic and comprehension level of some who elevate themselves is astounding.

#1019 5 years ago
Quoted from jackofdiamonds:

Can you imagine the entire legal dept at Universal vs. 2 dudes from the Netherlands who want to build a toy?

Yes, because the record companies took on and won money from a grandmother who let her grandson use her computer and he downloaded songs illegally from her computer. This is not far from that.

#1020 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

If you are going to direct a post at me - you should stick to things I've actually said.
- Declaring some innocent (buyers) does not define who are the guilty. So I didn't declare anyone guilty with that line
- Where did I say stealing? That's right, I didn't
- Company assets are not a personal slush fund to just reallocate like your personal piggy bank. There are accounting implications on what and where money is associated with.

Where are all the US kits again? And again... where did I say this was some scam?

The logic and comprehension level of some who elevate themselves is astounding.

I've come to realize you just like to argue. Ride that light cycle into my ignore list.

-1
#1021 5 years ago

OK so here is my take on it
1.) Barry may have taken money from DP USA to fund trips to promote TBL and finish off BOP2.0
2.) Universal has not agreed the Playfield art work- on the flyer I have seen DP did state in a big black box "artwork subject to change.
3.) Barry has not responded to Phil asking to be disbanded from DP.
4.) phil has done this for two resons because he is worried that pre-order customers won't get a game because UNIVERSAL will pull licence & he will face legal action if this happens

Is this the jist of it?

#1022 5 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

Heads-up.
I just got an email from Barry - but asked for clarification.
I've also asked that he address the VIP's / pinside.
The last thing I need to be is a f'n parrot.
-Rod

What did he say?

#1023 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

- Company assets are not a personal slush fund to just reallocate like your personal piggy bank. There are accounting implications on what and where money is associated with.

Last time I checked BoP was a DP product. TBL is also a DP product. That means they can allocate money to one or the other as much as they want.

#1024 5 years ago

After I met one of the DP heads in an elevator at Expo, I swore I would never give them a dime, and I loved TBL. Me and the other 4 guys in the elevator all had the same reaction after witnessing an ego trip by this asshole. So, it is no surprise this has all gone south. Do yourself a favor, take your refund and go buy a WOOLY, where the people are nice and they listen to customer concerns.

#1025 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

That means they can allocate money to one or the other as much as they want.

This is the way of thinking which crashed lots of companies...

#1026 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

'resolvable' if both parties were participating... and that was the problem. Party 2 was ignoring party 1 and dragging party 1 down with their unilateral decisions.
Its like being dragged around on a leash... you can chose not to to walk, but the leash still drags you forward. That's what was happening here.

Dude - I was referring to the license issues and ongoing business as being resolvable and not the business relationship between Phil and DP.

As far as the business relationship between DP and Phil goes, well that has been toast for a while. In fact, I thought it was done 6 weeks ago with Phil's abrupt departure email. Apparently that was only the 'employment' relationship and Phil is still a shareholder of DP USA.

Right now, all we know is that DP was unwilling to unwind the relationship on the terms that Phil was offering. We don't know the details behind the terms, beyond foregoing 'future profit' on the entity.

I think some new shit needs to come to light.

#1027 5 years ago
Quoted from zucot:

What did he say?

As a business owner myself, a hobbyist here, as well as a human being that tries to believe in respect as much as possible - please hang tight - let me see what I can do.

-Rod

#1028 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Last time I checked BoP was a DP product. TBL is also a DP product. That means they can allocate money to one or the other as much as they want.

But not by using funds sent to DP USA...

#1029 5 years ago

TBL is dead to me
I thought this was going to be my first NIB.

28
#1030 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

No, that's not "what's happening here". What's happening here is that Phil TOLD you that this was happening. You chose to believe it as a FACT, not me.

Here's a fact... the parties split... and over 6 weeks later, they left the 'disgruntled' guy with the keys to the vault. That's defendable how?

Your defense so far has been 'liar liar pants on fire!!' with nothing to discredit what has been submitted, and nothing to discredit the indisputable facts that we do have (phil split with DP BV, DP has yet to resolve their US entity problems, DP left a disgruntled employee with management of tens of thousands dollars worth of customer submitted funds, DP has been advertising and showing a prototype, etc).

Know why we believe what has been shown? Because it adds up and doesn't conflict with the indisputable facts. It is a story SUBSTANTIATED with references that appear credible and dovetails with hard facts. Simply put... there is enough there to believe the core elements (USA vs BV, the split, the lack of disassociation, the unapproved content being used in promotion, the use of content before having approval, the access of DP USA's assets).

Meanwhile, you come back with 'friends don't do this to friends' 'some friend you are' 'they are traveling' and now this general attack on anyone that dare think for themselves and take in the information available. You're a joke.. blindly defending what you yourself have admitted you have no knowledge of or association while ignoring all the indisputable elements.

Quoted from Cenobyte:

Then you post "your 2 cents" acting like you've worked with Stern or Bally/Williams and know how they handle their license stuff?

Yes, because the law is not defined by pinball companies or dutch defenders.

#1031 5 years ago

On pinball news, JJP did a presentation on Hobbit. In the presentation they showed a multiball sequence which Peter Jackson himself said no to. They still showed it as it was their vision and what they wanted to put in the game. It was refused and so abandoned. Is that illegal showing their vision? If it is not in The final product or licence is worked out before then is it still illegal.

UNIVERSAL may not know of the pin, but was it DP intention to make a prototype and show UNI the "vision" and then go make changes after that. Granted they should not have taken it to a show or organised events to show their vision before complete approval.

-1
#1032 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

OK so here is my take on it
1.) Barry may have taken money from DP USA to fund trips to promote TBL and finish off BOP2.0
2.) Universal has not agreed the Playfield art work- on the flyer I have seen DP did state in a big black box "artwork subject to change.
3.) Barry has not responded to Phil asking to be disbanded from DP.
4.) phil has done this for two resons because he is worried that pre-order customers won't get a game because UNIVERSAL will pull licence & he will face legal action if this happens
Is this the jist of it?

I don't think so. In my opinion this should be:

1.) Barry may have taken money from one DP project and put it into another DP project.
2.) Universal has given DP a license for TBL, but with lots of legal stuff to live by. DP has crossed some of these legal limits in their enthusiastic efforts to create this really nice pinball machine. I haven't seen anything that indicates that they are in REAL trouble with Universal, just a few slaps on the wrist.
3.) Phil STATES that Barry did not respond to his asking to be disbanded. This did not came falling from the skies 6 weeks ago, some arguments must have preceded this and Phil only showed the ugly tail of it, not it's precedings.
4.) Phil has done this ONLY because he is afraid of his family facing legal issues, NOT for helping people get their money back. In fact: his literal words in this thread are: "Please Barry & Jaap, take this DP-US company from my hands and transfer all funds, you can stick the money in your mattresses, I don't care". Not something somebody would say if he was concerned with your money...

#1033 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Immature AND a lawyer. Admirable

I'm Dutch too, damn triple whammy I guess...

-2
#1034 5 years ago

Yay! Now over a 1000 Posts based on a one sided , un-verified dispute dragged into a forum, knowing it'll get blown up, creating panic, folks pulling out ill-informed, not waiting on the full story.... Good show, and probably the intended effect...

#1035 5 years ago

I had my wife all convinced to let me preorder TBL but after hearing a few locals advised me to steer clear from these guys I decided not to do it. Glad I listened!

Have fun with this dumpster fire!

dumpster fire.gif
-3
#1036 5 years ago
Quoted from Rossz:

This is the way of thinking which crashed lots of companies...

No, it's a simple way of doing business. Maybe companies like Texaco or Toyota use this way of doing business, but a small company like DP uses it's cash flow on current projects and they are not going to stick every penny in a pot marked TBL or BoP.

#1037 5 years ago

Looking at the big picture and best case scenario does anyone realistically think that TBL will ever get made? Even if the license issues get sorted out and Phil gets relieved of all responsibility, does DP have enough business sense to actually hire employees, acquire tooling and parts, and deal with suppliers and disgruntled customers, and actually build hundreds of pinball machines? We've already seen how difficult it can be to startup a new pinball company (JJP) that actually "builds" pinball machines and that's with having knowledgeable business savvy people running the show. From the looks of things it appears that DP struggles with even minor business tasks such as getting a Paypal account switched over and dealing with licencors. If it takes 6+ weeks to even address/deal with these minor issues how long will it actually take before the first games are out the door?

TBL is an amazing machine and DP is by all means very talented at building a pinball machine but can they really go beyond just being talented hobbyists and run a successful business? I know I wouldn't be comfortable if I had a deposit in on the machine. I really do hope these games are made but I have serious doubts given what was revealed in this thread.

#1038 5 years ago
Quoted from Soltic:

As a business owner myself, a hobbyist here, as well as a human being that tries to believe in respect as much as possible - please hang tight - let me see what I can do.
-Rod

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate it. My finger is hovering over the PayPal dispute button.

#1039 5 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

I'm Dutch too, damn triple whammy I guess...

Hey don't forget me can I join in too?

#1040 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

Last time I checked BoP was a DP product. TBL is also a DP product. That means they can allocate money to one or the other as much as they want.

Thankfully you obviously have no role in any organization's accounting. It's not about what they spend on, its how the money is accounted for, how its recognized, where, taxed, and more. Add into that separate LEGAL entities, under different jurisdictions and nations.. and it gets even thicker.

But yeah, your 'its our money' simple approach is probably just like the thinking of DP and why they appear to be oblivious to the consequences of their actions.

#1041 5 years ago
Quoted from Cenobyte:

No, it's a simple way of doing business. Maybe companies like Texaco or Toyota use this way of doing business, but a small company like DP uses it's cash flow on current projects and they are not going to stick every penny in a pot marked TBL or BoB.

Maybe you've heard of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron_scandal

Small companies still have to respect accounting rules, even from project to project, and especially when there's an oversea sister-company.

I guess you and I aren't accountant so maybe I'm wrong, but maybe you too.

#1042 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Looking at the big picture and best case scenario does anyone realistically think that TBL will ever get made?

I'm thinking yes it will, but I guess this will be with investors money instead of preorders money.

I'm sure the licensing woes can be ironed out, the biggest problem would be money to fund the production.

#1043 5 years ago
Quoted from Rossz:

Maybe you've heard of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron_scandal
Small companies still have to respect accounting rules, even from project to project, and especially when there's an oversea sister-company.
I guess you and I aren't accountant so maybe I'm wrong, but maybe you too.

I'm not an accountant either, but I DO own a company myself that pulled in 2.000.000 Euro's last year. And I can tell you: over here in The Netherlands there is no such thing as project based funding or accounting rules for companies this "small". As long as you're sticking to your core business, you can take funds from one project and use it for another.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Thankfully you obviously have no role in any organization's accounting.

Nah. My company only existed for 30 years because I was so sloppy...

#1044 5 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

Dude - I was referring to the license issues and ongoing business as being resolvable and not the business relationship between Phil and DP.

What I was posting applies to the licensing relationship too... unilateral moves without respect for consequences or reasoning.

Go back and see, I already posted that I think the game and it's IP are still viable *if* the parties involved are ameanable... but while the IP conflicts are one of the sources of conflict, I personally think it's the least of their issues when it comes to sustainability. If UNI were to play it chill, all of those issues from a legal standpoint are easily resolved. But their problems seem to be more in house than with UNI.

#1045 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Looking at the big picture and best case scenario does anyone realistically think that TBL will ever get made?

On a positive note I hope so....so far there is nothing here except a disgruntled employee's posts. All of the issues outed here are surmountable.

-2
#1046 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Looking at the big picture and best case scenario does anyone realistically think that TBL will ever get made? Even if the license issues get sorted out and Phil gets relieved of all responsibility, does DP have enough business sense to actually hire employees, acquire tooling and parts, and deal with suppliers and disgruntled customers, and actually build hundreds of pinball machines? We've already seen how difficult it can be to startup a new pinball company (JJP) that actually "builds" pinball machines and that's with having knowledgeable business savvy people running the show. From the looks of things it appears that DP struggles with even minor business tasks such as getting a Paypal account switched over and dealing with licencors. If it takes 6+ weeks to even address/deal with these minor issues how long will it actually take before the first games are out the door?
TBL is an amazing machine and DP is by all means very talented at building a pinball machine but can they really go beyond just being talented hobbyists and run a successful business? I know I wouldn't be comfortable if I had a deposit in on the machine. I really do hope these games are made but I have serious doubts given what was revealed in this thread.

They haven't even shipped product A, and there wasn't even enough money from product B preorders to pay for the parts to fill the overdue orders of product A.

#1047 5 years ago
Quoted from Pinhead1982:

Is that illegal showing their vision?

It depends entirely on their licensing agreement with the other party. It's also a completely different beast when you are talking about content that is not approved from your licenser vs. content from someone you aren't in a good faith arrangement with AT ALL.

There is also the problem of 'willful disregard' if you know, and do it anyways.

The point of the earlier discussion was that simply the fact it's a prototype or not sold yet is NOT a blanket escape to use other people's IP without consent as many here tried to claim.

IF you can show or promote content before final approvals, or show any incomplete work would be a matter of the agreement between the licenser and licensee. Which is why we can't say anything about if there were actual violations or not. All we know is Phil's comments that the content shown was NOT approved, and from his interpretation of their agreement, they should not have been showing.

-3
#1048 5 years ago

Yeah no, nobody has said even close to the above statement by Jakenjoi. Things seem out of hand now. Suggest at least temp close the thread / cooling off period?

Where is the op? Surely his question is resolved now

#1049 5 years ago
Quoted from Rossz:

I'm thinking yes it will, but I guess this will be with investors money instead of preorders money.
I'm sure the licensing woes can be ironed out, the biggest problem would be money to fund the production.

And who might these "Investors" be that would feel comfortable investing money in a new company that already has a negative track-record on how to run a business. I think we "hobbyists" are more forgiving then businessmen that actually invest in pinball machine companies to make money.

Maybe they should try to float their business plan on ABC's "Shark Tank".

#1050 5 years ago

Well over here I call that commingling and it's wrong . Those deposits are to be towards the TBL project and were promised as fully refundable at any time . At minimum the money better be somewhere at DP .

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